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DPP OU Kevin Garrett Stall

Discussion in 'RMT Archive' started by Kevin Garrett, Sep 13, 2010.

  1. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    you've obviously never played against a gliscor baton pass team. allow me to walk you through it.

    i lead with a generic dual screen user (let's assume azelf). kg switches to tyranitar first turn while i set up reflect.

    Jolly Choice Scarf Tyranitar vs. Jolly Azelf behind Reflect
    Crunch: 51.4% - 61%
    Pursuit: 26% - 31.1%

    you'll want to crunch so that azelf can't explode. azelf light screens and dies in two hits. gliscor switches in.

    Jolly Tyranitar Crunch
    vs. Jolly Gliscor behind Reflect : 16.1% - 18.9%

    ...

    let's see what else we can do

    Bold Rotom-H Shadow Ball
    vs. Jolly 252/196 Gliscor behind LScreen : 13% - 15.5%
    Careful Forretress Payback
    vs. Jolly 252/0 Gliscor behind Reflect : 7.9% - 9.3%
    Bold Blissey Seismic Toss
    vs. Jolly 252 Gliscor: 28.2%
    Impish Gyarados Waterfall
    vs. 252/0 Jolly Gliscor +Reflect +LScreen : 24.3% - 29.4%

    blissey does the best damage of all of your pokemon ~_~

    you're not phazing; baton pass gliscor always has taunt. so you switch to blissey (or make a worse move, it doesn't matter) on an agility, seismic toss while it swords dances twice, and then passes to a 252/252 lum berry metagross.

    252 Adamant Metagross +4 Meteor Mash
    vs. 252/6 Careful Hippowdon : 113.6% - 133.8%
    vs. 4/252 Calm Blissey : 167.9% - 197.5%
    252 Adamant Metagross +4 Earthquake
    vs. Careful Forretress : 77.4% - 91%
    252 Adamant Metagross +4 Zen Headbutt
    vs. Bold Rotom-A : 100.3% - 118.2%

    the one pokemon who can take an attack is forretress, but...

    Careful Forretress Payback vs Metagross: 17.3% - 20.6%

    it doesn't matter how many layers you have. you are never going to ko metagross. it will clean up this team every single time. don't call pointing out this weakness a "noob rate".
  2. Banedon

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    I'd presume the way to deal with Gliscor would be to switch Gyarados in. Gliscor is forced to Taunt while Gyarados gets off an Intimidate (Gliscor might not even know Gyarados has Roar at that point). After that KG could go to Hippowdon. Again Gliscor is forced to Taunt. Back to Gyarados for more Intimidates, stalling out Light Screen / Reflect turns, and if Gliscor ever stops Taunting then it's at risk of being phazed.

    More threatening (on paper anyway) is a Nasty Plot + Agility pass to something like Porygon-Z. If Porygon-Z has some combination of Nasty Plot, Recover and Lum Berry / Substitute, even Blissey would have some problems dealing with it as well ... but then again AFAIK nothing can pass Agility + Nasty Plot in OU except for Ambipom, which isn't very viable in OU.

    Anyway since I don't play OU I can't really comment on the team, just pointing this out. KG if you've been playing some variant of this team for years don't you get counterteamed?!
  3. Haldar

    Haldar

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    Gliscor will have Hyper Cutter in a Baton Pass Team. Intimidate will change nothing.

    Anyway, a very good team. By having played against, I've to say that it's difficult to stallbreak it.
  4. Haldar

    Haldar

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    A team with Rotom-A SleepTalker can't be weak to Electivire. And due to the Electivire's uselessness on the Standard Metagame, it's fairly enough.
  5. IronBullet93

    IronBullet93 Sitting on a cornflake
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    Hi KG,

    This is an incredibly solid stall team, and you have pretty much every major threat in the metagame covered. However, you have problems with last mon setup Pokes such as Crocune, and DDnite and DDtar can be a bit irritating for you to face, the latter especiall if Hippowdon is weakened, thanks to the lack of Defense investment. I'd suggest replacing Tyranitar with another Scarfer, a catch-all Pokemon who takes care of Cro-Pokes, and acts as a great insurance check against Empoleon, Gyarados and the two aforementioned threats. Scarf Jirachi could fit well over Tyranitar, with its excellent coverage and Trick. A moveset of Iron Head/Trick/Ice Punch/Thunderpunch is ideal.

    Great job on the team, 5 stars.
  6. Disposable Puppets

    Disposable Puppets

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    I've played this team twice. It is certainly a very well-constructed team and is very difficult to break. The only suggestion I would make is to put wish on Blissey somewhere but you've obviously done well without it.

    Great job with the team
  7. 6A9 Ace Matador

    6A9 Ace Matador veni, vidi, vici, VERSACE, VERSACE VERSACE

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    Seems solid, only problem is you need to sac to get in scarftar usually. Maybe you should test out Heatran over it, you don't have to sac and it beats many of the things you have Ttar to kill. Also I reccomend trying Bold Blissey with the same EVs, you take stuff like Jirachi and Scizor U Turns better.
  8. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
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    This suggestion has peaked my interest, especially the second part. Now that I have Hippowdon handling some of the special threats, I could afford to have Blissey be more defensive. It would help with the two things you mentioned, but also taking on bulky unboosted DD Dragonite as a last Pokemon. I will certainly give it a try.
  9. mtr

    mtr

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    Gliscor/Metagross Baton Pass is a rare style of team simply because it's simply very inflexible. If the enemy lead beats DS Azelf (Aerodactyl, Jirachi, etc), it's over. If the enemy has a Brick Break user (which they will obviously bring in on Azelf), or indeed any way of disrupting Gliscor, things look dicey. If they can beat the recipient (+2/+2 Metagross isn't all that, you still lose to defensive Rotom-A without Zen Headbutt IIRC), same. And if the enemy gets set up on one of your other 3 Pokemon, you will have serious trouble, since 2 of your Pokemon are suicide support dudes. I can't see any Gliscor/Metagross team doing very well or scaling the leaderboard just because Aerodactyl and Jirachi remain fairly popular leads.
  10. matty

    matty I did stuff along time ago
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    I completely gree with this suggestion. I've always used Bold 252 Def and many people rarely realize just how bulky she is. Takes hits like a champ

    Unfortunately this concept isn't new and I know that you've had success with it on the ladder so kudos, but Taylor beat you to this by a year earlier. The only thing I think you made better was EV selections. Good job for re-inventing the wheel. I still love you >_>

    http://www.smogon.com/forums/showthread.php?t=57810

    EDIT: Ya i thought you were aware of that, I just thought that I should point this out until new people came and were like "OMG SCARFTAR ON STALLL WATTTTT?" Plus they never read the Intro in the OP
  11. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
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    I am aware of that team and that's why in the OP I said I probably wasn't the first to use this combination. I didn't post this to have people gush over it because it's not the best team ever made. It's the end of DPP as the primary generation and this is the team I used most frequently. Since I spent so much time with it, I wanted other people to give it a try and explain my battling philosophy with it. I think people misunderstood my posting this as trying to get credit for something I know isn't mine.
  12. BKC

    BKC
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    From someone who's played stall for a long time, this is an amazing team. Yeah Trick is annoying but you can work around that, that's one of the things I like; the team can beat "stallbreakers."

    The only thing I'd change is Gyara to a Careful nature, with a spread of 248 HP / 64 SDef / 196 Def, it's a spread I've used for awhile and I find it to be more useful overall, not just against Ape [who can't OHKO you with a +2 Grass Knot after Stealth Rocks with this spread].

    Overall, fantastic team. An easy 5 stars.

    Edit: Oh yeah TrickScarf Rachi > ScarfTar, at least imo, thanks to the weapon of Trick, which will really make it easier against other stall teams. I wanted to suggest this at first, forgot, then I saw IronBullet93 suggest it and remembered haha.
    Jirachee likes this.
  13. ENZ0

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    Hey KG,

    This is a a really solid team! I remember battling you sometimes back when I use to be on the leaderboard; have to say I admire how long this team has been viable. Don't know why people look upon it harshly, when we all know that full stall doesn't provide much diversity (unless you're using hail). I don't think there's much to change other than maybe trying out Ice Fang on Hippowdon, primarily for Gliscor and Dragonite. I would also use a Bold Nature on Blissey.

    Think thats it. Hope this helps, and good luck!
  14. Alan

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    Hey Kevin!

    This team is super solid (I bet you get tired of hearing that)! I was never that crazy about having Hippo + Tyranitar on the same team (stacking weaknesses and redundancy all that jazz) but if it works I guess go for it. I think you used this team against me in WCOP and it wrecked me. So just congrats on the team and all the good fortune its brought with you. :)
  15. symphonyx64

    symphonyx64 Private messages are the best way to reach me
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    Hey Kevin!

    Having been watching you use this team for the past 6 months or so, I must say this is an incredibly solid team. Now I know why that Hippowdon takes special attacks unusually well haha.

    Having played against your team numerous times, I've noticed a conservative Breloom player can pose some issues for you, especially if they don't Spore right off the bat; something I do nowadays

    Also if Hippowdown is weakened enough, WishCM Jirachi can pose a serious problem for you as Tyranitar can only deal 24.8% - 29.2% with Crunch. Replacing Tyranitar with a specially defensive Heatran with Roar as suggested by other people may prove useful. Ultimately, it is up to you.

    Even though this team is essentially cookie-cutter stall and nothing was revolutionized here, I have no problem giving this team 4.5 stars, not only for the team itself and its consistency, but also the excellent presentation.

    Well done!
  16. mtr

    mtr

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    I've been playing around with this team, and have made some slight variations:

    1) I Lead with Forretress, it has better matchups against Aerodactyl, Swampert, and Metagross.

    2) Thanks to HGSS move tutors, I can fit both Heal Bell and Wish on Blissey, so I use both. Even when you have dudes with recovery, Wish is awesome because Blissey can pass Wish to Gyarados so easily it's not funny. Of course, this does mean that you have trouble with DD Roost Nite, so I've been considering Toxic on Hippowdon.
  17. Smith

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    I'm just posting to say that this team is fantastic, I don't tend to think heavy stall works that well but this is definitely the way to do it, I think if I tried to go out and make a stall team now I couldn't help but come up with something close to this. I think I remember facing you on the ladder once, and I remember a stall team, this was probably it! I'm going to agree that Bold nature is probably better for Blissey for taking random physical threats. Also I like being a speed creep on Gyarados for opposing stall teams to roar before them, but that's nothing major. Anyways this isn't a real rate so don't bother responding too seriously but I love this team and the team building process especially, thank you for the resource!
  18. tito

    tito

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    Might be really minor, but your team prototype as of now looks like you lose to opposing stall with the change from Toxic Spikes to Rest. Yes the metagame is predominantly Steel-oriented, but there are still important Pokemon that are handled by Toxic Spikes, including opposing Blissey and Celebi.

    If you look at your team at a glance, Tyranitar covers the reasons for having Payback on Forretress: to hit opposing Ghosts and Starmie. Why not run Toxic Spikes over Payback on Forretress? It would really help wear down opposing stall teams faster, and with Tyranitar covering the reasons for having Payback, I see no reason why it shouldn't be done.

    Other than that, this team is very solid, and I've enjoyed playtesting it for a few matches. Good work as usual dude.
  19. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    Looks like a pretty cool team, but it seems like one pokemon is really going to give you trouble, and it is jirachi.

    The variety of sets it brings to the table can really fuck you up, and so a central counter to basically everything except the rare superachi with hp ground (hes one of the stars of my team personally, and i know a lot of other users use him, but you won't find him as common on the ladder so i wouldn't worry too much, but he usually can get past stall fairly easily) is needed. my suggestion is Heatran, and I think it has been previously stated. there are some different routes you can go here, whether it be rest stalk or even using taunt/lava plume, but a sure counter to jirachi (specifically superachi) is basically whats missing.

    losing ttar means losing a ghost killer and stuff, but heatran handles ghosts extremely well still, and yes, it means starmie is going to be more of a threat than when you had tyranitar, but in the longterm, it probably helps you more. blissey handles starmie either way, although the problem of rapid spin will still be there. heatran still covers pokemon such as zapdos extremely well, covers most versions of the star and in my opinion, hurts opposing stall more than ttar, thanks to taunt and being a solid steel killer (the steels are the ones who spike up..)

    its your team tho, looks good either way, and i definitely can see sticking with hippowdon/ttar to cover jirachi, i just prefer the resistances and coverage heatran brings to this team. your success with the team obviously speaks for itself, and hopefully you'll consider these changes

    good luck.
  20. franky

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    the only evident problem i see is the combo of scartar + dd gyarados. gyarados with taunt is worst as it can juggle your team quite easily. i guess using will-o-wisp is your best bet over shadow ball - i don't see the real use of it with tyranitar here. just a thought, this is a great team.
  21. Mekkah

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    Gonna go ahead and post since I've been toying around with this team.

    @kd24 I don't think Heatran is going to help much. Jirachi is not a problem. It needs a lot of luck to get past Hippowdon, especially with proper use of Intimidate Gyarados. All Heatran would be good for is those situations where it does get ridiculous luck. In exchange, you are losing Tyranitar, who is very important. First off, it is a 100% kill on almost every Azelf lead, which Heatran can't do. Against Heatran, they can switch out and come back to Explode later, and risking Rotom to get 2HKO'd by Psychic is undesirable). With Tyranitar, you can kill with Pursuit, Spin with Forretress, and then Gyarados lives long and happily ever after since you have Stealth Rock cleared forever.

    Starmie is also very important to kill. You don't want Starmie to stick around for long against this team. Rotom can block Rapid Spin, but you don't want to get 2HKO'd by Hydro Pump. Blissey is not going to die to it, but that will allow Starmie to Rapid Spin the Spikes Forretress took so much damage for to set up. Tyranitar gets rid of Starmie nice and quick unless it switches in on Hydro Pump and then loses the 50/50 prediction (Crunch/Pursuit vs switch/Hydro Pump) and then guarantees you all the entry hazards you put down stay down (barring Toxic Spikes versus teams with Roserade or Tentacruel).

    In addition, Tyranitar traps and kills Rotom-A. It is very important to get rid of Rotom, since it stops Forretress from Rapid Spinning, which in turn is the only thing between:
    1) Hippowdon/Blissey/Tyranitar and Toxic Spikes
    2) Gyarados and Stealth Rock

    Also, adding Heatran over Tyranitar makes this team even more vulnerable to Gyarados than it already is. Tyranitar can at the very least occasionally revenge it with Stone Edge, and is much less switch-in bait than Heatran. And finally, Heatran (with Taunt) would make this team extremely slow in general. Sometimes you just want one fast Pokémon out there to take out another semi-fast threat.

    Also, Gengar just has a much easier time with this team in general without Tyranitar.

    I like the idea of Payback-less on Forretress, and instead using Rest. Forretress is the only Pokémon on the team without recovery and it really shows. It takes large beatings while setting up hazards, and due to its low speed it's going to die sooner or later, and you need to make sure to kill everything related to entry hazards before Forretress kicks the bucket or this team loses so much effectiveness. Now Resting isn't ideal, but at least Blissey can cure it from sleep. I think Rest + Aromatherapy is more practical than Wish passing...I have rarely gotten off Wish passes in my career, and I'm not gonna try with this team. It's just too telegraphed.

    I find this team's main problems are:
    - Gengar. Lots of things on this team can't really touch it, so Tyranitar needs to kill it. And that's risky, since Gengar almost always has Focus Blast. Generally Tyranitar will win, but sometimes it won't, and that's very troublesome. This is one thing Payback Forry is good for.
    - Stealth Rock lead -> Infernape/Lucario/Flygon (in order of how threatening they are). Azelf and Metagross both have protocols for getting killed early, but generally an opponent can squeeze in Infernape before Forretress has the chance to Rapid Spin. And that makes Gyarados a very sad panda.
    - Tyranitar Pursuiting Rotom-H. There is nothing to do about this, and I don't think putting Will-o-Wisp on is the right way to go. Yes, Shadow Ball coverage overlaps with Tyranitar, but Will-o-Wisp also overlaps with Toxic Spikes, it makes Rotom bait for other Rotom, even more bait for Infernape and Heatran, yadda yadda. At least Pursuit Tyranitar allows Forretress to get an extra layer in.
    - Magnezone. Losing Forretress is just very bad, generally means you get Spin and a layer of Spikes or Toxic Spikes. Again, there is nothing to do about it, barring Shed Shell.

    I think I will try out Rest > Payback on Forretress and see where it goes. I only used Payback once, after all.
  22. Cherub Agent

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    wow, lovely team. I've experimented with it (reading this post i decided to finally give stall a shot) and it simply works. Totally agree with your intro about how you dont need prediction to play stall, really cool, since i never thought of it that way, always assuming stall was just a boring way to win. You have me converted sir. However, while I was playing, i made just one change. I switched payback on forretress to pain split. Basically, it's only to hit rotoms, right? And tyranitar is a nearly fail safe method to get rid of them. Since blissey doesnt have wish, forry needs some survivability. I guess rest is another option, since you have aromatherapy, but pain split seemed more reliable to me. Just a suggestion, and again, great team

    Edit: why not try ice fang over roar on hippowdon? It helps with the gliscor issue, and kills off dragonite as well
  23. Kevin Garrett

    Kevin Garrett is a competitor
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    Mekkah summed up my opinion on a lot of the suggestions about the sixth slot. There is one that I think could work out pretty well and that is Conflict's Spiritomb suggestion. I gave it a try on another stall team after watching imperfectluck use it so I am familiar with how it works. That would cover Lucario, Azelf, Starmie, Rotom-H, late game boosters, etc. My only concern in adding it would be one less Heatran switch-in. I know that Spiritomb set runs a lot of Special Defense, but with a set of Rest, Pursuit, Curse, Will-o-Wisp/Toxic, won't touch Heatran. Still worth a try though since it takes care of some other threats just as well, if not better.

    Re: Cherub Agent: I prefer two phazers because they can deal with different threats and it helps against other stall teams as well.
  24. RaikouLover

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    Hmmm I 2nd the suggestion to lead with Forretress. It has excellent matchups against Aerodactyl, Swampert, and Metagross, and the matchups it loses against (Taunt Azelf) you easily take care of with Tyranitar. Gyarados does a pretty good job of annoying Machamp as well. As for Gyarados, a slight special defensive investment can help with Infernape, but I honestly don't see Infernape being threatening to this team like everyone says. NP Ape has really ceased to exist.
  25. Epic Cherubi

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    While this is a good team and while I'm sure you've put a lot of thought into it, this team is literally Pokemon for Pokemon, move for move Earthworm's stall team with Scarf Tyranitar over Heatran. It seems a bit arrogant calling it "Kevin Garrett stall" when 5/6 Pokemon are carbon copies.

    You seem terribly weak to Breloom. While you can certainly force it out with Roar you lack many ways to significantly harm it. Three of your Pokemon can't break its Subs at all while Tyranitar is wrecked unless he can come in with its Sub down, and even then Superpower will only do around 65% to 12 HP Breloom. Blissey clearly isn't going to combat it well and Rotom is always 3HKOed which can easily turn to a 2HKO with Stealth Rocks and ~10% of prior damage. Since most of your team can't break its Sub it doesn't need even Spore to cripple you.

    I highly reccomend you run Specially Defensive Heatran in the last slot as it gives you an extra way of killing Breloom but also an extra Dragon resist. Something like mixed Dragonite will run your team to the ground as your current Steel resist has no Wish support and can be worn down. It can easily Roost off SR damage and hits from anything here except for Tyranitar who, as with Forretress, lacks Wish support. Heatran probably won't solve that, but it might help.

    Good luck!

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