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King of the Sea (No, it is not Lugia!)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by fire r a g e, Feb 14, 2013.

  1. fire r a g e

    fire r a g e

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    115
    Well hello again! This team is based around Kingdra, my favorite 2nd Gen Pokemon. He is underrated, but with team support, he can shine to fame. Without further ado, here's the team!

    [​IMG]
    Big Tusks the Mamoswine @ Life Orb
    Ability: Thick Fat
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
    Moves:
    Ice Shard
    Icicle Crash
    Earthquake
    Stone Edge

    He is back again! With a massive Attack stat, no wonder he is such a behemoth. Ice Shard really helps revenge kill Dragons, OHKOing a vast majority of them besides Kingdra (more common than other UU Dragons) and Dragonite. Against Dragonite, it 2HKOes through Multiscale, but OHKOes after Stealth Rock damage. I've had situations where they switched in Dragonite thinking I was Choice locked into Earthquake, and were quickly 2HKOed. Not only is Ice Shard useful for revenge killing Dragons, but it also revenge kills other threats, such as Adamant Breloom if I win the speed tie, Venusaur, and Landorus. Icicle Crash is the main ice STAB; it lets Mamoswine OHKO Gliscor after Stealth Rock damage. Earthquake and Stone Edge form the EdgeQuake combo, hitting almost all OU threats for neutral damage. Stone Edge will almost always OHKO Gyarados after Stealth Rock damage. Max Attack and Speed allows him to hit as hard and as fast as he possibly can. After testing Mamoswine out, I went with Expert Belt instead of Life Orb (which he suggested) as it has been helping me predict my opponent, since they expect Mamoswine to be wielding a Choice Band (not Life Orbed). For example, I used Earthquake on a Pokemon and KOed it. Thinking that I was locked into Earthquake, they sent in Gliscor, who I promptly OHKOed with Icicle Crash after SR damage. Plus, I hate being locked into one move if I can help it.

    This spot used to be occupied by Magnezone, but after playing more matches with this team, more often than not, Dragon types have not been reliably dealt with by Kingdra, Gyarados (only Flying Dragons), and Latios. Mamoswine almost always keeps them at bay or outright KOes them after SR and/or prior damage with Ice Shard. Ultimately, in my experience with this team, Dragons, more often than not, have been more of a nuisance to my team than Steel types. Latios has been doing great so far against against Steel types with Hidden Power Ice. However, as soon as I find Steel types more trouble than they are now, I will go back to Magnezone, so think of him as "in reserve".

    Synergy:
    Gyarados takes the Steel, Fire, Water, and Fighting attacks for him while he takes the Electric attacks aimed at Gyarados. Same with Kingdra except for Fighting.


    Synergy:
    Breloom and him have great defensive synergy, as they resist attacks the other is weak to.

    [​IMG]
    The Fist the Breloom @ Lum Berry
    Ability: Technician
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 252 Atk / 252 Spe / 4 HP
    Moves:
    Spore
    Bullet Seed
    Mach Punch
    Swords Dance

    Breloom is quite the fighter, sporting an awesome 125 Atk stat with a great ability, Technician, and a great STAB Priority Technician move, Mach Punch. Speaking of Mach Punch, it is the move I spam the most and is the most powerful single attack move on this set. Even without an SD boost, Mach Punch will OHKO Tyranitar 87.5% of the time. I could use Life Orb to guarantee that OHKO, but I almost always have SR on the field, and I never lead with TechniLoom anyway. The combination of Swords Dance and Mach Punch dents even Pokemon that resist him. Bullet Seed punishes bulky Water types. This Breloom doesn't really aim to take down any specific threat. It is mainly for damaging whatever it can so my other sweepers to finish off. I chose Lum Berry over Life Orb as I like the assurance against status inducers.

    Synergy:
    Kingdra - .25x Fire


    [​IMG]
    Rampage the Gyarados @ Leftovers
    Ability: Moxie
    Nature: Adamant
    EVs: 56 HP / 248 Atk / 204 Spe
    Moves:
    Substitute
    Dragon Dance
    Waterfall
    Stone Edge

    Meet Gyarados, who has been putting fear in the hearts of many since Gen 1. I chose SubstituteGyara so he doesn’t get cripple by statuses. He is usually my lead if I suspect the opponent is going to lead with a Dual Screener like Espeon or Azelf, allowing me an opportunity to set up Dragon Dances. Substitute allows me to successfully pull of a Dragon Dance on a switch-in as well. Waterfall is his only STAB and has a handy flinch rate. Stone Edge hits Water types and Dragons that have a Rock weakness/neutrality, such as Salamence, Dragonite, and opposing Kingdra. 108 Speed EVs allows him to outpace anything slower than, and including, Starmie; meaning (just an example), Tornadus isn’t safe to spam Hurricane to confuse me. I haven't really been seeing the benefits of Intimidate, so I swapped it for Moxie, which has really helped in his sweeping potential. Sometimes, I can get 3 Dragon Dances off, OHKO a Pokemon, get a Moxie boost, and then OHKO even an Intimidate Salamence with Waterfall after Stealth Rock damage.

    Synergy:
    Mamoswine: Electric (x0), Rock (x1)
    Gyarados: Fire, Fighting, Steel, Water (.5x)

    [​IMG]
    Spiks the Ferrothorn @ Leftovers
    Ability: Iron Barbs
    Nature: Relaxed
    EVs: 252 HP / 88 Def / 168 SpD
    IVs: 0 Spe
    Moves:
    Power Whip
    Gyro Ball
    Stealth Rock
    Leech Seed

    After testing my team, I agreed with Shurtugal. I found out that Rain Teams give me trouble, especially Specs Keldeo, and also Latios. For those reasons, Forretress had to go. He wasn't really providing much to the team besides Rapid Spin, but even that wasn't really needed since I only had one Pokemon weak to it. With that being said, say a hardy hello to Ferrothorn. Stealth Rock is needed on every team and mine is no exception. I would use Spikes over one of my attacking moves, but that has two problems; one, without Gyro Ball, he is helpless against a majority of OU Dragons, and two, without Power Whip, Bulky Water types such as Vaporeon and Gastrodon hard wall him, healing off the Leech Seed damage with Wish and Recover, respectively. Power Whip also helps against Ground types such as Mamoswine without Superpower. Gyro Ball always OHKOes Gengar while his Focus Blast doesn't even OHKO unless there is both SR and Spikes on my side of the field. Leech Seed allows me to stall out some Pokemon and prevent set up sweepers like Dragonite from setting up Dragon Dance or Latias from setting up Calm Minds. 0 Speed IVs are here so I can guarantee that OHKO on Gengar because if I had 31 Spe IVs and an Impish nature, it would only manage 63.36% - 74.81%.


    [​IMG]
    The Jet Airline the Latios @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Pressure
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 252 SpA / 252 Spe / 4 HP
    Moves:
    Draco Meteor
    Hidden Power Fire
    Trick
    Surf

    Meet my Revenge Killer, ScarfTios. Draco Meteor is the most powerful move on this set, as it can dent even Pokemon that resist it, while decimating almost everything else minus a few, such as Specially Defensive Tyranitar. I tested out Hidden Power Fire over Dragon Pulse, and although a reliable STAB Dragon move was useful, I just found Hidden Power Fire too valuable to give up, because with Magnezone gone, Steel types are rampant through my team, and I need a way to get rid of them. Latios has been doing good so far in that regard. Surf, although it won't KO Tyranitar, will weaken it enough so that Kingdra can finish them off. Psyshock, unfortunately, does not OHKO Keldeo and Terrakion, but even though it weakens them into KO range for my other Pokemon to finish off, I decided to just use Breloom to Revenge Kill the latter while Kingdra can take care of the former. In place of Psyshock, I have been using Trick, which helps cripple walls and setup sweepers alike. Max Special Attack is a given, due to how Latios's stats are set up. With max Speed and a Choice Scarf attached, he reaches a breakneck 525 Speed, meaning he outspeeds Modest Venusaur in the sun and OHKOes with Hidden Power Fire, and +2 Adamant Gyarados/Dragonite and 2HKOes with Draco Meteor.

    Synergy:
    Forretress - .25x Bug, .5x Ghost, .5x Dark, .5x Ice

    [​IMG]
    King the Kingdra @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    Nature: Modest
    EVs: 40 HP / 240 SpA / 228 Spe
    Moves:
    Draco Meteor
    Hydro Pump
    Rain Dance
    Surf

    Meet RainDra, the superstar of the team, one of the most potent sweepers in OU under the rain, and my favorite 2nd Gen Pokemon. This thing is also quite bulky. I’ll start with the EVs first. 228 Speed allows him to outspeed Scarfed Latios and OHKO with Draco Meteor under Rain. 40 HP EVs allows him an optimal number for taking Life Orb and entry hazard damage. Hydro Pump can OHKO and 2HKO many Pokemon under rain. After SR and a layer of Spikes, even Ferrothorn is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump under the Rain. Latios is always 2HKOed with Hydro Pump in the rain while Latias is 2HKOed with a combination of Hydro Pump and Draco Meteor (in that order). Rain Dance is the reason he is so threatening with his Water STAB. It also boosts his Speed to new heights, meaning only Scarf users with base 115+ Speed wielding a Choice Scarf outspeed him. Surf might be crazy when Hydro Pump exists on this set, but on Gliscor, I cannot afford to miss with Hydro Pump and allow him to set up a Sub or Toxic poison me. Surf also lets me sweep late-game. Life Orb is the item of choice, as without it, unlike in Mamoswine's case, I lose out on the KOes against Lati@s.

    Synergy:
    none

    Note: The lack of a Steel type is a downside, but so far, I have yet to have a problem with them.

    Here's my team. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Team Building section soon to come. Thanks!
  2. DarkGiratina

    DarkGiratina

    Joined:
    Feb 7, 2013
    Messages:
    37
    Hey there, very nice team.
    I would suggest run Superpower over Stone Edge on Mamo, to hit Ferro harder.

    Good luck!
  3. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    Hey!

    You looked hard-pressed to take rain-boosted attacks. Kingdra's LO limits its switch ints while Latios just doesn't have the bulk. Meanwhile, Keldeo can come in and threaten everything (bar a Latios that can't switch into Icy Wind / HP Ice). LO Breloom wrecks everything if it can get a free switch-in. Finally, Specs Latios and LO Kingdra seems like it can just run over everything.

    I would firstly replace Forretres for Ferrothorn. Ferrothorn is much bulkier, so it can take rain hits a hell of a lot better, while giving you an answer to opposing Kingdra and Specs Latios. The bummer is you can't spin rocks, but Gyara will usually only set up when its got the game anyway so you really don't need to spin. (Standard EVS with SR / Gyro Ball / Power Whip / Spikes or Leech).

    On Gyarados, I would replace Stone Edge for Bounce, giving you both a better answer to Keldeo and an answer to Gyarados. Change his Evs to 8 Hp / 252 Atk / 248 Spe. I can't remember off the top of my head but those speed EVs are crucial to out speed certain threats after +1.

    I would replace Stone Edge for Icicle Spear on Mamoswine so you can hit those Sub Gliscors and those Multiscale Dragonite's for the KO, while replacing Icicle Crash for Superpower to hit Rotom-W.

    Breloom wants 66 Hp / 252 Atk / 184 Spe, and the Lum Berry is kind of redundant. Run Fight Gem instead, as the extra boosted power allows you to revenge faster threats if you lack rain and Latios is down.

    Try Psyshock on Latios over Hidden Power Fire to hit Keldeo and Terrakion, while you should also keep in mind that Breloom is the best counter to Ferrothorn so you have no need for HP Fire.

    Good Luck!
    ~Shurtugal~
  4. Poopboi

    Poopboi

    Joined:
    Jan 20, 2013
    Messages:
    3
    Mamoswine should definitely have Superpower over Stone Edge. In addition, l would suggest running an EV spread of Max HP, Max Atk, and 4 Speed on Mamoswine, as Mamoswine can take hits quite well with the HP investment.
  5. fire r a g e

    fire r a g e

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    115
    I will change Stone Edge to Superpower, but I'd rather not lose the ability to Speed tie with Breloom.

    As for Gyarados, I will test out Bounce over Stone Edge.
  6. CedOmega

    CedOmega

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Messages:
    217
    Nice team you have here, Fire r a g e.






    From a preview, your team seems very weak to Volcarona teams. Such teams include partners like Starmie & Terrakion. That said, it also means that your team will find said partners troublesome to handle. Volcarona(though rare, coming across the Hidden Power [Rock] variant will mean the end for your team). At +1 Quiver Dance, Volcarona can run through your team's Breloom, Forretress & Kingdra using its duel STABs; Bug Buzz & Fire Blast/Fiery Dance. At +2, it sweeps currently everything on your team. Beating Latios in a speed race and OHKOing Mamoswine regardless of the suggested max Hp investment. But, don't worry, as I'll see if I can help you out:
    • Now to fix your one noticable weakness(the one I just emphasized above...), I suggest replacing Mamoswine altogether with Heatran; special wall tran to be exact. Not to mention, Heatran can be extremely annoying to deal with. That, and it has great synergy with Breloom, Forretress, Latios & Kingdra. So, Yay for that! ;)
    Heatran
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Heatran@Leftovers
    Trait: FlashFire
    Calm nature
    248 Hp/ 252 Sp.Def/ 8 Sp.Attk
    LavaPlume, Toxic, Protect & Roar/HiddenPower(Ice)
    "Beware the Hidden Power Ground variant Volc"




    • I second Shurtugal's suggestion of Breloom's spread being changed to 66 Hp/ 252 Attk/ 184 Spe to add, again, more bulk to Breloom's stature. And the suggestion of Psyshock over HP(Fire) on Latios to help rid you of Terrakion and Keldeo threats. Also, it allows you to run flawless IVs(31 IVs in each stat) to outpace or speed tie with opposing Scarfed Lati@s.
    Latios
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Latios@ChoiceScarf
    Trait: Levitate
    Timid nature
    252 Sp.Attk/ 252 Spd/ 4 Def
    Draco Meteor, Psyshock, Surf & Trick




    • Next, I'd suggest changing Gyarados' ability from Moxie to Intimidate to take the pressure off of Gyarados in terms of being bulky enough to keep up its Substitute. Bounce is also prefered with this change, as it gives Gyarados another STAB attack, 30% chance of paralyzing the foe, and another turn to regain Hp while the two-turn move awaits to strike. You could also keep the Adamant nature to help it stay on the offensive side. Or, opt for Impish with 252 Hp/ 200 Def/ 56 Attk for a more bulky SubDD attacker(<This is what I use with Heatran.). Plus, using this, you now have a Gyarados + Heatran core. :3
    Gyarados
    Show Hide

    [​IMG]
    Gyarados@Leftovers
    Trait: Intimidate
    Adamant/Impish nature
    56 Hp/ 248 Attk/ 204 Spd
    Waterfall, Bounce, DragonDance & Substitute


    Honestly, it all comes down to your preference, so it's up to you. I, for one, just hopes this helps. :) Good Luck!
  7. fire r a g e

    fire r a g e

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    115
    I can see how Volcarona could cause my team headaches, but will the lack of a Dragon Killer hurt me at all? Also, Kingdra can just come in after a KO against him, set up Rain Dance after Volcarona QDs, and OHKO with Hydro Pump.

    I will change to Bounce and Intimidate on Gyarados, but I want to keep my nature and EV spread.

    I will change back to Psyshock and use your EV spread on Latios.

    Thank you Ced.
  8. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    Agree with everything except Tran; kingdra should be enough imo since RD
  9. CedOmega

    CedOmega

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Messages:
    217

    It would have to come in on a +1 QD Volc and try to set up before a BugBuzz. Either way, it's either gonna set up +2 QD, which can sweep by that time, or OHKO with BugBuzz. LO variants secure an easy OHKO @ +1.
    Tran allows him to come in on +1 and either Roar it away or use Toxic on its switch in.
  10. fire r a g e

    fire r a g e

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    115
    @ Shurt: I don't like the idea of losing my Rapid Spinner, because then Gyarados will take Stealth Rock damage and his bulk would be compromised.

    Yeah, I realize my logic is flawed, as Volcarona would already be at +1 by the time Kingdra switched in.
  11. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    I explained why Rapid Spinning isn't too troubling into my rate.


    The idea would be to switch into Volc as it gets +1, but I suppose it could midgame sweep if it weakens kingdra to KO range. I don't like tran sice it compromises offense though. :/

    Imo Hp rock is rare, which case it gets beat by dd Gyara with bounce. Plenty of checks imo,

    You could go back to sedge Mamo and use Twave on my suggested Ferro to further check though
  12. CedOmega

    CedOmega

    Joined:
    Nov 15, 2011
    Messages:
    217
    Just a point here, if they do carry HP(Ground), they'll use it on Heatran after a switch in. Then, you can safely bring in Gyarados since it assured of HP(Rock).

    For Fire r a g e, btw.
  13. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    Twave Ferro prevents its set up whereas Forrey can't. It FB you have switch to kingdra / Gyara. It has Lum you wave again so its forced to kill as you know LO won't KO kingdra, win win
  14. fire r a g e

    fire r a g e

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    115
    Sorry, I guess I didn't see the explanation, but after going back to the rate, I see it now. I will test out Ferrothorn > Forretress and Heatran > Mamoswine, but I don't think I'll like the lack of offense nor the loss of a Dragon Killer.
  15. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

    Joined:
    Jun 25, 2011
    Messages:
    1,301
    You don't need Heatran IMHO. Just go back to edge Mamo and it can't set up on anything. Spore loom / Gyara / wave thorn/ rd kingdra / sedge Mamo / trick tios.

    Your good imo ;)
  16. fire r a g e

    fire r a g e

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    115
    Thanks all!
    I've been testing a bit, and I've found Ferrothorn worth keeping over Forry as the lack of Rapid Spin hasn't really been hindering Gyarados at all.
  17. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
    Moderator

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    Hi there, nice team; I especially like the use of Kingdra. With that said, there a quite a few issues. First off, you struggle to take hits from Choice Specs Keldeo. Latios just isn't bulky enough to do so. You are 6-0'd by Trick Room Reuniclus. You are 6-0'd by Volcarona if it gets up a free Quiver Dance. Breloom just wrecks you. For these reasons, I suggest changing Latios to a Latias. Latias is a near-perfect counter to Keldeo and can take pretty much anything from Reuniclus while OHKOing it with Draco Meteor. I suggest a Life Orb set with some bulk so you can do so. Latias also gives you a much better way to handle Venusaur and Breloom. Choice Scarf Latios is weak and setup and Pursuit fodder, so it's not really doing that much for your team.

    However, removing Latios leaves you without a revenge killer and without the needed Volcarona checked. The Ferrothorn you are using to replace Forretress can take Dragon-type attacks from the Dragon-types you need deal with. This means you don't really need Mamoswine all that much; in fact, I think it is barely helping at all. For this reason, you should use a Choice Scarf Terrakion over Mamoswine. Running Terrakion ensures you still have a revenge killer, which is important, and gives you a very solid Volcarona check. It can revenge kill most of the Dragon-types Mamoswine is meant to deal with anyway. With Volcarona dealt with, you've pretty much got your issues taken care of.

    With that said and done, there a few smaller changes you make. The first is Low Sweep over Swords Dance and Life Orb over Lum Berry on Breloom. Breloom shouldn't be much of a sweeper; you have Gyarados for that. It has trouble setting up, and it doesn't really help it that much. Low Sweep hits a number of threats hard and most importantly slows them down so Breloom can hit them with Bullet Seed. Life Orb ensures that your attacks do the most damage possible, which is important even if you use Swords Dance, as Breloom just doesn't live that long. Another change to make is Bounce over Stone Edge on Gyarados. Bounce hits Breloom, Celebi, and Keldeo, as well as pretty much everything Stone Edge is meant to hit. It also has a nice 30% paralysis chance. Stone Edge doesn't really help with much at all; Bounce hits all of the Pokemon you listed.

    This gives you a finished product of Terrakion / Breloom / Gyarados / Ferrothorn / Latias / Kingdra, which is pretty solid, if slightly Tornadus weak, but it's not that big of a deal.
    tl;dr (open)

    - Latios -> Life Orb Latias

    - Mamoswine -> Choice Scarf Terrakion

    - Low Sweep -> Swords Dance and Lum Berry -> Life Orb on Breloom

    - Stone Edge -> Bounce on Gyarados


    sets (open)

    [pimg]380[/pimg]
    Latias @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 104 HP / 152 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Roost
    - Draco Meteor
    - Psyshock
    - Surf

    [pimg]669[/pimg]
    Terrakion @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Close Combat
    - Stone Edge
    - X-Scissor
    - Rock Slide
  18. fire r a g e

    fire r a g e

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
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    115
    I will test out your suggestions pokemon0078. You bring up valid points, although I don't see how TR Uni beats me.
  19. fire r a g e

    fire r a g e

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
    Messages:
    115
    After testing out the team and the changes suggested, my only Pokemon change is Forretress -> Ferrothorn. Lum Berry has saved Breloom more times than I can remember, saving him from being crippled, so he stayed the same. Psyshock has been helping me with some matches, but I'll have to test it some more before permanently changing moves. Are there any weaknesses in my current line?
  20. fire r a g e

    fire r a g e

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2011
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    115
    I am guessing from the lack of replies, my team is fine as is?

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