Kingdra (Analysis) [QC 0/3]

[panamaxis]

Don't slash Surf in the last slot, Hidden Power is definitely superior. I'm thinking we should have HP Fighting as the first slash and HP Fire as the second. Then in the set comments mention that if you aren't using politoad in conjunction with Kingdra than you should use HP Fire > Hp Fighting.

ChestoRest Kingdra is 144 HP / 148 Atk / 40 SpD / 176 Spe

I like running 176 speed EVs to outrun Garchomp, does anyone know what the HP and Special Defense help survive, is it better than running more attack?

Double Dance should probably be scrapped now that Drizzle Toad exists. I also like the idea of running a Rain Abuse set, something like Waterfall Hydro Pump Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse Outrage or something with enough attack EVs to 2HKO Blissey in rain (Chansey too maybe but that might be a bit too hard to accomplish..), rest in special attack in speed?

Let me know what you think.

 

[Mew]

Yeah, you're right about the Double Dance set. Also, I used your advice about the last slot in the Special set.

Ok, done now...?

 

[Mew]

QC approvers, would you have another look please?

 

[A Man In Black]

I like running 176 speed EVs to outrun Garchomp, does anyone know what the HP and Special Defense help survive, is it better than running more attack?

Since this is basically the same spread as the chestorester from the DP analysis:

"The HP and Special Defense EVs are chosen so that Kingdra will survive at least two attacks from Life Orb Starmie and +1 Suicune."

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

Minor nitpick, you don't need to put the Hidden Power type in [].

On the mixed Dragon Dancer set, I suggest that you remove the slashes with Draco Meteor and Hydro Pump. They provide highly redundant coverage in exchange only for options for powerful Special STAB. Give them both a mention in AC.

You might want to expand some of your set comments and correct some grammatical errors as well. The analysis looks good otherwise. Good luck.

 

[Mew]

What grammatical errors?

Used some of the tips.

 

[Calm Pokemaster]

Corrections in bold. I am just pointing out a few mistakes now. I can do a proof-read later if I have some free time, PM me if you need one.

...Same set as previous generation, but maybe even more effective...

This is the same set which was a staple for Kingdra in the 4th Generation, but with the prevalence of Drizzle Politoed, it might be even more effective now.

...It could drop some speed though for a bit bulk...

However, it could drop some Speed for a bit more bulk.

...Outrage is usually the best option, since if Sleep Talk selects Outrage, it won't be locked into it. also, it won't be walled horrifically by Water Absorbers. Waterfall is still an option though, but you'll need to get rid of the Water Absorbers first....

Outrage is usually the best option, since if Sleep Talk selects Outrage, it won't be locked into it. Also, it won't be walled by Pokemon with Water Absorb. Waterfall is still an option though, but you'll need to get rid of the aforementioned Pokemon that are immune to it first.

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Also, forgot to mention this earlier, there should not be any space between a full stop and the </p> tag. Correct this everywhere in the analysis.

 

[Mew]

Fixed it, don't know what more..

 

[RaikouLover]

Not impressed with this at all. I go hard on Kingdra because he is so efficient, some of this needs work.

Where the fuck is Mixdra????? Dead serious about this. Mixdra needs to be the FIRST set, since it doubles as a Sweeper / Revenge Killer AND wallbreaker. Life Orb Hydro Pump with Draco Meteor Combination is just too good to pass up and it requires no set up. I mean sure it can be switched around a bit but come on people! And where is all Special Kingdra?

[SET]
name: Mixdra
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Hidden Power: Fighting / Outrage
item: Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
nature: Rash / Mild
evs: 76 Atk / 252 SpA / 180 Spe

250 Speed outruns Scarfchomp in the Rain. Hidden Power Fighting hits Nattorei and Empoleon (your still at best 3HKOing them), and weather abusers Tyranitar and Abomasnow with perfect accuracy in their respective conditions. Hydro Pump will hit like a nuke, Draco any Water resists.

Tone down trying to beat Nattorei with every set, its very hard for Kingdra to do unless Nattorei already has a dent in it. Not all sets should be devoted to beating it (Hidden Power Fire on a Dragon Dance physically based set? Come on people).

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Rain Dance / Hydro Pump (AC)
item: Life Orb / Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Abuse Surf. Ice Beam because Grass Types exist now. Rain Dance helps for stand alone situations. Could mention Surf AND Hydro Pump when you need that extra power, or HP Fighting for Natt

 

[Mew]

Not impressed with this at all. I go hard on Kingdra because he is so efficient, some of this needs work.

Where the fuck is Mixdra????? Dead serious about this. Mixdra needs to be the FIRST set, since it doubles as a Sweeper / Revenge Killer AND wallbreaker. Life Orb Hydro Pump with Draco Meteor Combination is just too good to pass up and it requires no set up. I mean sure it can be switched around a bit but come on people! And where is all Special Kingdra?

[SET]
name: Mixdra
move 1: Hydro Pump
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Waterfall
move 4: Hidden Power: Fighting / Outrage
item: Life Orb
Ability: Swift Swim
nature: Rash / Mild
evs: 76 Atk / 252 SpA / 180 Spe

250 Speed outruns Scarfchomp in the Rain. Hidden Power Fighting hits Nattorei and Empoleon (your still at best 3HKOing them), and weather abusers Tyranitar and Abomasnow with perfect accuracy in their respective conditions. Hydro Pump will hit like a nuke, Draco any Water resists.

Tone down trying to beat Nattorei with every set, its very hard for Kingdra to do unless Nattorei already has a dent in it. Not all sets should be devoted to beating it (Hidden Power Fire on a Dragon Dance physically based set? Come on people).

[SET]
name: Special Sweeper
move 1: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 2: Dragon Pulse
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Rain Dance / Hydro Pump (AC)
item: Life Orb / Leftovers / Lum Berry
Ability: Swift Swim
nature: Modest / Timid
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

Abuse Surf. Ice Beam because Grass Types exist now. Rain Dance helps for stand alone situations. Could mention Surf AND Hydro Pump when you need that extra power, or HP Fighting for Natt

An LO sets seems obvious, don't know where my mind was.. Though about the Mixdra set, I don't see it breaking any walls outside of Nattorei (without rain) and Rock/Ground types without setup. I'll add them both though, but not as first.

Maybe an AC mention in the Specs set is enough on the special LO set?

 

[Eo Ut Mortus]

Specs set should be listed first since out of all of Kingdra's other sets, it gets raped the least by Nattorei. I would not bother with a mention of Hidden Power - first of all, Hydro Pump has an effective BP of 135 against Empoleon and Nattorei (120 * 1.5 (STAB) * 1.5 (rain) / 2 (resistance) ). The difference in power can be seen in these calculations (Kingdra vs. max/max Nattorei).

Hydro Pump: (35.80% - 42.05%)
Hidden Power: (38.64% - 45.45%)

Not much of a difference. So basically, I think Hidden Power should not be mentioned at all, and Surf should be placed in the last slot for incidents where you can sweep but can't really afford a miss (also the off-chance you run out of Hydro PP).

As for Hidden Power's presence on other sets, I think it's acceptable on the Mixed set seeing as you're not locking yourself into it. However, I don't think there needs to be an entire set dedicated to the concept of DD + Hidden Power - just mention Hidden Power Fire in the set comments of the DD/Sub set, making sure to mention that it's best used outside of rain.

I'm skeptical of the RestTalk DD set. I am leaning towards dropping it. At the very least, it should be the last set due to a) nerfed sleep and b) Nattore.

 

[Mew]

I tested your Mixdra set, but it just lacks power especially against Nattorei and Burungeru cores. Also, without the Swift Swim boost and extra water STAB it's just set-up bait for the likes of specially defensive Roobushin and other bulky opponents, especially the ones who resist water moves.

Any more things I need to add/change?

 

[RaikouLover]

without the Swift Swim boost? clearly Mixdra is supposed to be used in the rain...

 

[ARandomDude]

192 Atk / 240 SpA / 76 Spe

You have this under the SubDance set, I think you wanted 192 Hp / 240 Atk / 76 Spe?

 

[Garganator]

According to Kingdra Gen 4 Analyses damage calculations on MixDra:

Waterfall vs. Max Def Blissey: 61% - 73%
Waterfall vs. Max HP Bronzong: 54 - 64%
Hydro Pump vs. Max HP / 98 SpD Bronzong: 72 - 85%
Hydro Pump vs. Max HP Celebi: 38 - 45%
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Celebi: 59 - 69%
Hydro Pump vs. Max HP / Max SpD+ Forretress: 85 - 100%
Draco Meteor vs. 216 HP Gyarados: 62 - 73%
Hydro Pump vs. Max HP Jirachi: 76 - 89%
Hydro Pump vs. Max HP Metagross: 91 - 100%
Hydro Pump vs. Max HP Skarmory: 100%
Waterfall vs. 160 HP / 136 Def Snorlax: 60 - 71%
Hydro Pump vs. Max HP Suicune: 34 - 39%
Draco Meteor vs. Max HP Suicune: 52 - 62%
Hydro Pump vs. 240 HP Swampert: 82 - 98%
Hydro Pump vs. Max HP Scizor: 100%

If you ask me, some of those are really impressive calculations. MixDra is viable and I'm sure of it (I used it in Gen 4, in some Gen 5 matches too). Not adding this set is huge mistake. Pretty much only defensive Empoleon and Nattorei can switch into this monster without taking huge blow. Funniest thing is that something like Suicune or Celebi CAN'T handle Kingdra even if they switch directly into resisted Hydro Pump in rain, as Draco Meteor after this easily finish them off, one of the bulkiest Pokemon around. And you may play around Empoleon and/or Nattorei with little support like Magnezone, which traps them quite easily or use something like Brick Break Kabutops as a good lure for them and after this Kingdra is pretty much free to wreak havoc. I agree totally with RaikouLover - this set is a must. And if you talk about Tyranitar, Ninetales or Hippowdon ruining your weather - they can't switch in directly, damage they take is just too huge, so weather problem isn't big here, really, unless they switch after something died, but hey - Kingdra did it's job in this moment taking opponents Pokemon. Spikes support is also quite nice, as this set will force TONS of switches with opponent trying to predict your moves (you Hydro Pump, after this you may Waterfall or Draco Meteor, etc). Add to this SR + one set of spikes and... Celebi is 2OHKOed by Hydro Pump (heck, there's a slim chance for it with... SR alone). Suicune meets similar fate with 2 sets of spikes + SR.

 

[RaikouLover]

not only that, I think Mixdra can bloat those calcs more now and go to a Rash nature and Max Special attack since those are taken with neutral nature, 240 SpA. 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe, Rash is the best spread now thanks to Blissey being much less common and the metagame being so accustomed to physical Kingdra

 

[Mew]

Ok, persuaded. I'll put it second.

 

[Universal Berry]

You can also boost the Speed to 236 evs to outspeed Scarf positive base 111 after the rain boost If scarf borutorosu is really a pain in the ass or simply 228 evs for scarfed positive base 110.

Of course, this would also mean to lower its offenses. You see.

 

[Mew]

updated with Drizzle + Swift Swim ban and stuff. Just need some more comments for the MixDra set.

 

[GameMaster0000]

Because of Ban. Maybe pure rain dance and double dance can be use again.

 

[Mew]

Because of Ban. Maybe pure rain dance and double dance can be use again.

I don't think they need a whole set devoted to them. A mention in Other Options should be sufficient.

 

[AccidentalGreed]

Alright, you're working on this again!

Okay, so since Aldaron's Proposal has been passed, I encourage you to Please implement Rain Dance sets for Kingdra. Even though it can't be used viably with Drizzle Politoed, Rain Dance Kingdra is immensely anti-metagame. They check Sun and Sandstorm like it's nothing, and Special sweeping sets do good with either Leftovers or Life Orb this generation. Rain Dance sets are essentially Swift Swim Kingdra with Rain Dance and three/two attacks, and even though you're using Rain Dance, it can be placed on just about any team with one turn of set up. Rain sets are amazingly good.

 

[PlainN]

Utterly agreed. I'm currently running the old Rain Dance + 3 Special Attacks and it works so well as a late game cleaner and wall-breaker. The biggest issue is the Nattorei, Jellicent, and Gliscor combination which checks it quite handily, letting Kingdra kill himself with LO recoil. Baring the combination of those three, Kingdra just rampages through the meta dominated by sand teams. Even better, given that there are still a few Drizzle teams around, you could easily steal a drizzle + swsw combo to mess up the enemy team with Dragon Pulses or Draco Meteors.

 

[Mew]

Updated.

 

[SmileZ]

Non Rain Mixdra. I had this bad boy purely to take on the above defensive Combo. Admittedly HP Fire is terrible in rain but the idea is purely that you can't out predicted all day by the above. It eventually will break what is a **very** common and potent defensive core.

Kingdra @ Lum Berry
Trait: Swift Swim
EVs: 176 Atk / 80 SAtk / 252 Spd
Naive Nature
- Waterfall
- Outrage
- Dragon Dance
- Hidden Power [Fire]

Absorbs status and gets you to +2 as the defensive core tries to stamp its authority. This works best with Spikes support as Ferrothorn will take more than just HP Fire to finish him off.

Test it, I'm not sure how worth a slot it is but it helps with a common Defensive core that alot of teams struggle to get through.