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Kingdra (BW2 Revamp) (QC 0/3) [edit 10/10 I'm still working on this stuff]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by AccidentalGreed, Jul 27, 2012.

  1. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    Yeah, I'm doing this before Salamence. Kinda deserves it, since it's actually pretty important right now.

    Status: Quality Control

    QC Approvals (0/3):
    GP Approvals (0/2):
    -----------------------------------------------------------------------
    [​IMG]
    I swear to God I'm the only Kingdra user here

    [Overview]


    • Although Kingdra has taken quite a few steps down in OU’s gutter, it can still--more often than not--threaten numerous types of teams.
    • Operates like other typical Dragons; it is extremely threatening with setup (there are many opportunities for this), and, of course, it has a set of hard counters like any other Dragon.
    • Outside of Ditto (which isn’t even that common at the moment) and maybe Amoonguss, there aren’t any new threats worth worrying about in BW2.
    • Popularity of rain teams make easy pickings, although Kingdra users must stay clear of the popular Ferrothorn, who is commonly used in rain.
    • A common misconception is that Kingdra’s lack of weaknesses makes it hard to take down; its typing sort of backfires on it defensively when you consider the fact that unlike most Dragon- or Water-types, Kingdra fails to sponge strong Electric-, Grass-, Ice-, and Ground-type moves efficiently without a good amount of investment.
    • Also unlike other Dragons, Kingdra is vulnerable to all entry hazards, and is slower than most of them, beating only Dragonite.
    • Kingdra’s Water/Dragon typing, however, benefits it offensively, giving it two good STABs to work with. This combination, however, fails against Ferrothorn and several other Steel-type Pokemon.
    • Yeah, Ferrothorn and the Drizzle ban kinda sucks right now, but Kingdra can literally turn the tide of a battle the instant it gets an opportunity to do so. The process is simple and short, especially considering the fact that weather teams are at pretty much every corner.
    [SET]
    name: Offensive Rain Dance
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Draco Meteor
    move 4: Surf / Dragon Pulse / Ice Beam
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Modest
    evs: 28 HP / 252 SpA / 228 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • This set makes best use of Kingdra’s attacking capabilities
    • In the rain, Kingdra is basically a faster Timid Life Orb Latias (falling only 2 points short of 252 SpA variants) with an insanely stronger Water-type move, enabling it to power through teams with just Hydro Pump or Surf alone.
    • To put stuff into perspective, only a small percent of OU isn’t 2HKOed by Hydro Pump and/or Draco Meteor, and the rest is basically taken down in one hit, with or without prior damage.
    • Basically messes up with any weather team once it gets a chance to set up Rain, but be wary of taking unnecessary damage because Kingdra is on two timers; its health and the amount of turns rain is up.
    • If you’ve ever played with Keldeo, than you know that the difference between Hydro Pump and Surf is MASSIVE. Hydro Pump is recommended most of the time because despite the Stone Edge accuracy, it REALLY punches holes in pretty much anything. Even Ferrothorn is 2HKOed with some prior damage.
    • Draco Meteor enables Kingdra to power through many bulky targets that Dragon Pulse can't, such as Jellicent (a perfect 2HKO with two successful Meteors). If you don't want to do that, Jellicent, as well as other similar threats, is 2HKOed by the combination of Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor in order.
    • Although it may seem redundant to use Surf alongside Hydro Pump, it's there mainly for reliability, and has good power and accuracy against a number of threats.
    • Dragon Pulse is there mainly for reliable STAB, in case Kingdra needs an accurate hit, or needs to hit Hydro Pump-immune targets. Keep in mind, however, that a resisted Hydro Pump in the rain is just as powerful as a STAB Dragon Pulse.
    • Ice Beam hits Grass-type Pokemon decently, and enables Kingdra to 2HKO Celebi and Amoonguss and more.
    • I removed Hidden Power Grass because it’s only really for one thing, and one thing only: Gastrodon.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • The EVs enable Kingdra to hit as hard as possible while outrunning Choice Scarf Latios in the rain, and outrunning Jolly Breloom outside of it (so Kingdra can also outrun all Adamant Dragonite and Gyarados)
    • The rest is put into HP for a small amount of bulk, although you can hardly call 7 extra HP EVs life-saving.
    • Alternative EV spreads, such as 92 HP / 252 SpA / 164 Spe
    • You can use Hidden Power Fire in the last slot to catch Ferrothorn off guard, although using it is highly counter-productive with Rain Dance, and using it requires Kingdra to not set up rain, which is, of course, bad.
    • You can use other items besides Life Orb to lengthen Kingdra’s lifespan; Leftovers is optimal for passive recovery, but leaves Kingdra a bit weak offensively. Wave Incense/Sea Incense/Mystic Water/Splash Plate (what the hell, Gamefreak?) may also be used, since Kingdra isn’t hitting much super effectively (leaving out Expert Belt), and its main move is typically Hydro Pump or Surf, rather than Dragon Pulse. Of course, there will be differences in power, especially in cases where Dragon Pulse or Draco Meteor is needed.
    • Kingdra should be used with other fast sweepers who benefit from the removal of other weathers, and also because of its generally short lifespan.
    • If you wish Kingdra the opportunity to sweep by itself, be sure to remove Ferrothorn first and formost (preferably with Magnezone). After that, focus on the pink blobs and specially defensive threats. All of these threats are handled relatively well by Fighting-type Pokemon, or physical Fighting-type moves in general.
    • Keldeo stands out as a great Fighting-type teammate, seeing as Secret Sword is a big dump on all of the aforementioned counters, and Keldeo has its own Hydro Pump (even stronger than Kingdra’s!) to abuse.
    • You must have extra insurance against bulky Grass- and Water-types in general
    • Ruined by hazards; Rapid Spin users such as Starmie (who also benefits from the rain) removes these hazards easily
    I'll put this in the AC (open)
    [SET]
    name: Bulky Rain Dance
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Substitute / Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Modest
    evs: 212 HP / 212 SpA / 84 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • With significant investment in bulk, in addition to the recovery provided by Leftovers, this Kingdra can take quite a few more hits and set up more consistently than its more offensive counterpart.
    • Be warned, however, that this set lacks the bite that the offensive one does, and, as said before, plays differently.
    • More freedom in setting up Rain Dance because of bulk, so it can come in a few times and set up rain and sweep by itself.
    • After Rain Dance, Kingdra basically has an Agility and Growth boost (for Water-type attacks), enabling it to serve as a bulky sweeper with the ability to mess with other weather teams continually.
    • The second and third slots should be fairly obvious for obligatory STAB attacks. Hydro Pump KOes quite a few threats that Surf can't; after a layer of Spikes, 252 HP Scizor and Conkeldurr are doused instantly.
    • The last slot depends on what you need Kingdra to do.
    • Substitute blocks status and attempts to Trick a choice item on Kingdra. Several attacks from some Pokemon, such as Choice Scarf Jirachi's Ice Punch, SpD Jirachi's Body Slam, Landorus's U-turn (most of the time), Ninetales's Energy Ball, and defensive Politoed's Ice Beam, can't even break the Substitute.
    • Ideally, if opposing weather inducers are still alive, the idea is to use Substitute RIGHT AFTER Rain Dance, since all inducers will be eager to switch in and try crippling Kingdra. Rain Dance again, and there you go.
    • Toxic is an option if you feel the need to weaken weather inducers and bulky Water-types in a more direct fashion. This is especially beneficial against Politoed and Politoed, both of whom can give Kingdra woes.
    • Keep in mind that using Toxic will leave Kingdra susceptible to status itself.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • The investment in HP ensures that Kingdra's Substitute won't be broken by the attacks explained above, especially Jirachi's 252 Atk Ice Punch.
    • 212 SpA EVs, along with a Modest nature, are enough to ensure an OHKO on Choice Band Scizor and 252/0 Conkeldurr with a boosted Hydro Pump. Other benefits include beating Latios after SR and a chance at 2HKOing Tyranitar in Sandstorm.
    • Finally, 84 EVs are used to outrun Timid Choice Scarf Rotom-W in the rain, so Kingdra can Substitute or attack before being Tricked. Trying to outspeed faster scarfers would only result in even less bulk or power. Outside of the rain, this also allows Kingdra to outspeed 0 Spe Xatu.
    • For a mere 12 EVs in speed, Kingdra can outrun Choice Scarf Heatran, but lol what does that do (besides Dragon Pulse)
    • Another move to consider is Ice Beam, which hits Grass-types super effectively and has a chance to KO 4/0 Breloom. Outside of that, however, Kingdra loses out on beating Latias and Latios, and loses coverage on quite a few threats.
    • Under rainy conditions, the only reliable Choice Scarf Pokemon that can revenge kill Kingdra are Salamence, Flygon (lol), Latios, Hydreigon, and Terrakion (who can deal heavy damage, but never OHKO). Therefore, employing a sturdy Steel-type, such as Magnezone (for trapping Ferrothorn) or Jirachi (for general support) for Dragon-type revenge killers is beneficial. As for Terrakion, it can be easily handled by priority and bulky resists.
    • Since this set lacks the power provided by maximized investment and Life Orb, it is more easily, of course, handled defensively.
    • Ferrothorn doesn't really care about Kingdra's attacks, and doesn't mind Substitute. It can be easily removed with Magnezone, who also benefits from the rain with a decreased Fire-type weakness and being able to use Thunder
    • Chansey, Celebi, and most bulky Water-type Pokemon can shrug off Dragon Pulse.
    • All in all, Kingdra is played mostly for team support, messing up other weather teams when needed. Don't focus on Kingdra sweeping; however, in case you need to do so, have powerful physical Fighting-type moves ready for Chansey and Ferrothorn.
    • A Scizor of your own can trap Celebi, Latios, do decent damage against Outraging Dragon-type revenge killers, and kill off Terrakion. Scizor also lures in Fire-type moves for Kingdra to switch into, and benefits from the weakening of said moves.
    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Hydro Pump
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Surf / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Choice Specs
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • Despite my reservations about it, Specs Kingdra is a good set in its own right.
    • Does not require dancing.
    • With Choice Specs, both Draco Meteor and Hydro Pump become formidably powerful to to their high PP and their good coverage alongside each other. If you see something that resists Draco Meteor, click Hydro Pump.
    • The rest of the moves are more reliable and should be used for late-game cleaning, after Kingdra nukes everything early- to mid-game.
    • Kingdra’s STAB Surf and Hydro Pump are way, WAY more powerful than Latios’s Surf
    • Ice Beam is there because Grass-types in general are huge douchebags. It has a 54% chance of 2HKOing specially defensive Celebi without SR, which is pretty nice.
    • Due to the popularity of Ferrothorn, Hidden Power Fire in the primary option in the last slot. The chances of switching and hitting Ferrothorn in tip-top shape, however, is pretty low. If you have support against Ferrothorn (like a sane person should), Surf can replace it and be used alongside Dragon Pulse.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • Just maximize Speed and SpA and you're done. No need to screw with HP EVs, since speed typing with Modest Hydreigon is really, REALLY important, and you want to be able to revenge kill Choice Band Haxorus too.
    • Or you can just lower EVs so that Kingdra outruns Adamant Lucario, although the HP EVs rarely help.
    • Even with HP Fire, Kingdra can still outrun 252 Spe Adamant Haxorus.
    • A Modest nature can be used for more power; if you use it, the spread of 36 HP / 252 SpA / 220 Spe allows you to outrun all neutral base 80 Pokemon, giving you a chance to KO 4/0 Dragonite through Multiscale.
    • Kingdra should be used as a supporting attacker, nuking everything early- to mid-game, as Specs Latios would, and use its resistances to Water- and Fire-type attacks.
    • After Draco Meteor, Kingdra is bound to be set up bait. You must be prepared to stop certain sweepers from boosting, and provide Kingdra additional coverage in case it hits the wrong coverage.
    • Ferrothorn in rain can also be a problem, so be prepared for that as well.
    • Entry hazards discourage free switch-ins, and also allows Kingdra to OHKO Ferrothorn with HP Fire.
    [SET]
    name: Substitute + Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Substitute
    move 3: Waterfall
    move 4: Outrage
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 40 HP / 224 Atk / 16 Def / 228 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • The infamous Substitute + Dragon Dance set returns! This time, we’re taking a more defensive take on this set
    • Can set up repeatedly on defensive or weakened Pokemon, rather than rely on the one-time use of the Chesto Berry
      • Substitute prevents status, Trick, and fatal attacks from any possible revenge killers
      • The rest is pretty obvious; Dragon Dance for boosting, Waterfall for reliable Water-type STAB and whatnot, and Outrage for that powerful Dragon-type move.
      • Use Outrage with discretion, since Kingdra tends to be over-reliant on it to kill Pokemon who resist Water-type moves
      • More suited towards setting up on common defensive threats, such as Jirachi and Jellicent, and is more resilient than other sets due to Leftovers and Substitute

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • The EV spread is designed to have Kingdra's Substitute survive a Body Slam from SpD Jirachi
    • 228 Spe EVs are required to outrun Jolteon after one DD boost, and Choice Scarf Latios after two. This also conveniently allows Kingdra to outrun all Breloom (bar Choice Scarf ones).
    • The rest is put into Attack so Kingdra is as reliant on little boosts as possible
    • Kingdra can use a bulkier spread for bulkier Substitutes at the cost of attacking power (and thus extra attacking turns)
    • Because this set relies solely on the combination of physical Water and Dragon-type moves, Kingdra needs bulkier Steel-types removed first
    • Ferrothorn can break Substitutes and cripple with status, Scizor forces Kingdra to use Substitute to circumvent heavy damage, and Skarmory can take Kingdra if it hasn't boosted many times
    • Getting rid of Steel-types is also compulsory since Kingdra will often be forced to use Outrage, and will be locked in for two-three turns. Getting into confusion against Steel-types is not fun. At all.
    • Gothitelle and Magneton/Magnezone are two possibilities for trapping/killing Steel-types. While Gothitelle can open up opportunities by getting rid of Ferrothorn, in addition to having Trick and Taunt, Magnezone is a more resilient, albeit elaborate (meaning you're forced to use Magnezone against your own will), alternative. Magneton can also be used for a more offensive route (preferably Choice Scarf for revenge killing).
    • Be sure to get rid of Toxic Spikes (and entry hazards in general), since they limit the amount of turns Kingdra can set up, and poison can be quite detrimental with Substitute.
    • Kingdra is best suited on a team with alternative offensive Pokemon, as opposed to one that is built around it (since it's still quite susceptible to revenge killing and being worn down).
    I'm STILL DOING/TESTING STUFF WITH THE MIXED DD SET, CALM DOWN. ALL I DID WAS CHANGE THE MOVESET A BIT.

    [SET]
    name: Mixed Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Waterfall / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Draco Meteor / Ice Beam
    move 4: Outrage
    item: Life Orb / Lum Berry
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Lonely
    evs: 116 Atk / 160 SpA / 232 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • One of the most, if NOT the most, offensive Dragon Dance set there is
    • Unlike other Dragon Dance sets, Kingdra only has to boost once to actually threaten shit, and doesn’t have to pussyfoot around by attempting to get multiple boosts (a feat easily stopped by several common defensive Pokemon).
    • Very self-sufficient; with the provided coverage moves and LO, Kingdra attains good power and coverage against pretty much everything, including defensive walls the other Dragon Dance sets can’t touch.
    • Kingdra is therefore able to easily overpower Skarmory, Scizor, Ferrothorn, and others while dancing, making it quite a lure.
    • The only hard choice is here the choice between Waterfall and Hydro Pump.
    • Waterfall is good, accurate physical STAB that can be boosted by DD boosts, while Hydro Pump lands a harder hit against Skarmory, and can actually OHKO Hippowdon, amongst others.
    • Alternatively, if you're not content or confident in KOing Ferrothorn with HP Fire, you have two other options to consider.
    • The first is Draco Meteor, which allows Kingdra to kill or weaken Water-type resistances without resorting to Outrage (big Steel-type bait). Such targets include Breloom, Starmie, Slowbro, Latios, Hydreigon, and plenty others.
    • The second is Ice Beam, which basically does the same thing, but is more consistent against Grass-types.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • EVs allow Kingdra to almost always OHKO 4/0 Dragonite after one Dragonite through Multiscale, and it stands a fairly good of OHKOing bulkier variants without SR. 160 SpA is enough to OHKO 252 HP / 252 SpD Hippowdon with Hydro Pump (obviously not applicable if you aren’t using Hydro Pump) after one layer of spikes, and enough Speed to that Kingdra can outrun Jolteon after one DD.
    • The Speed also lets you outrun Jolly 252 Spe Breloom, in addition to Adamant Gyarados and Mamoswine before the DD boost.
    • Alternatively, Kingdra can look into a specially offensive set, or even lower its EVs in SpA so that it can invest in either Attack or Speed (the latter is prefered). This is currently being researched.
    • Lum Berry can be used to allow Kingdra a second chance to KO status users (especially Ferrothorn, who can survive one HP Fire), but the power difference is notable, and Kingdra can’t afford to rely on multiple boosts, given the minimal investment in bulk.
    • Best used with other offensive Pokemon who benefits from the weakening or removal of certain walls and otherwise annoying Pokemon. Kingdra’s tendency to never use special attacks with Dragon Dance lures in these threats easily.
    • Some of the mentioned KOes above can be achieved with a layer of spikes or SR, so those are obviously beneficial.
    • If Drizzle is up and Ferrothorn is in the opposing team, you must have an alternative way to bypass Ferrothorn (since HP Fire is weak in the rain)
    • Choice Scarf Salamence. You gotta have a counter for that. Definitely. You might want to consider being prepared for other common revenge killers as well, since Kingdra can easily be revenge killed with only that much Speed investment.
    [SET]
    name: Chesto Rest + Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Rest
    move 3: Outrage
    move 4: Waterfall
    item: Chesto Berry
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 144 HP / 94 Atk / 40 SpD / 232 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    • *shrugs* ChestoRest is ChestoRest. This being on-site should be no question at all, since the huge amount of Pokemon reliant of status to stop Kingdra is huge.
    • Ability to set up on quite a few common threats, especially -- you guessed it -- status users.
    • Keep DDing, Rest, and POW.
    • Do I really need to do this?
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    • There’s only one change I’m actually going to put into this, and that’s messing with the EVs.
    • That’s right. I’m going to touch a formula that shouldn’t even be touched, but due to the obnoxious amount of Tornadus-T, Jolteon, Choice Scarf Terrakion, and CS Latios going around, I’m taking some measures.
    • 144 HP / 94 Atk / 40 SpD / 232 Spe allows Kingdra to outrun Jolteon after +1, and outrun Choice Scarf Latios (and thus Terrakion) after +2. The spread yields the same results Kingdra would get by using a Jolly nature (so I’m posting the Adamant spread to avoid confusion).
    • The decrease in power doesn’t really matter since the point of this set is to set up multiple boosts, and Kingdra will be pretty powerful after those boosts anyways.
    • The previous spread is still there if Kingdra actually requires the power, but I think NOT getting revenge killed by random threats like Terrakion and Jolteon is much more damned important. Kingdra’s also a little less self-sufficient this way.
    • Defensive EVs are unchanged; as usual, it lets you set up on Starmie and the usual. Beware of Life Orb Starmie’s Psyshock, however, since it can easily 2HKO, unlike Thunderbolt (which the EVs were designed for in the first place)
    • As usual, this is absolutely walled, walled, WALLED by Ferrothorn. Getting some Fighting- or Fire-type attacks or attackers to offset it would be ideal, since they also eliminate other Steel-type Pokemon that could give Kingdra trouble. Magnezone/Gothitelle is obviously beneficial for reasons I made above.
    • You must also be prepared for obvious Perish Song or Whirlwind users; it would be best to eliminate them first.
    [Other Options]

    • I removed Mixed Rain Dance because the Special Kingdra is basically the better Rain Dance set to use this generation. Rain-boosted STAB Waterfall isn’t what it used to be, especially when it has little application in a metagame full of physically-defensive steel-types and numerous Water-immune Pokemon. Special rain Dance is pretty much superior since Mixed Rain Dance faces problems against some special walls anyway (especially Chansey), and Kingdra doesn’t have to go out of its own way to make Waterfall comparably powerful.
    • Other Dragon Dance set combinations to consider are Double Dance (Rain Dance + Dragon Dance), Mono-attacking DD (Rest + Sleep Talk + Outrage), and Disable + Dragon Dance (Disable | Dragon Dance | Protect / Substitute | Outrage)
    • Bounce sees better application on Gyarados, and kingdra has STAB Outrage to work with.
    [Checks and Counters]

    • Ferrothorn, Ferrothorn, Ferrothorn. Only Modest Choice Specs Kingdra stands a chance at actually OHKOing this thing, and that’s only because Ferrothorn’s very popularity forces it to use HP Fire.
    • Jellicent (the other side of the FerroCent combo) can burn Kingdra and recover off damage done by special moves. LO Dragon Pulse + Draco Meteor should 2HKO it, however, and it takes heavy damage from DD Kingdra if it hasn’t been successfully crippled.
    • Slowbro and other bulky Water- or Grass-types do relatively well against the more offensive Dragon Dance sets and can also cripple Kingdra with status. However, Kingdra has access to Substitute and ChestoRest, and these defensive Pokemon are heavily damaged by Draco Meteor.
    • If you resist Waterfall, you can bet a thousand dollars that kingdra will use Outrage next. While this is highly damaging, you basically force Kingdra to lock itself into Outrage, a perfect opportunity for Steel-types to come in and do whatever they want.
    • DD sets with Waterfall perform badly against Water-neutral or resistance Steel-types in general.
    • Unless you have a crazy-high Attack or SpA stat, or you’re Dragon-type, it won’t be easy to just revenge kill with a Choice Scarf user. In fact, in the current metagame, the only common non-Dragon-type revenge killers for Kingdra are Landorus and Terrakion, who sports a STAB Close Combat to shorten Kingdra’s life at +1.
    • If Kingdra has only boosted once (with Dragon Dance), Choice Scarved Dragon-types, especially Salamence, have a field day with it. They must all, however, caution themselves with the higher Speed boost provided by Rain Dance or Drizzle.
  2. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
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    Don't see any reason why Specs can't be included - it's a nice insurance against opposing Rain teams (well, all Kingdra are but this one especially) since you can Swift Swim on them and tear them apart with rain-boosted Specs Hydro Pumps, not to mention use that 4x Water resist to thwart Specs Politoed or whatever. Even if the opponent isn't using Rain it's still a pretty solid Pokemon - unlike the other Specs Dragon (Latios) it actually slaughters Tyranitar and Scizor (and to a lesser extent SpD Jirachi who is 2HKOd without Rain) and isn't Pursuit weak, nor does it need to constantly drop itself to -2 SpA.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I agree with Lee. Specs Kingdra is viable even outside of rain, as it has some perks that Lee mentioned, namely unresisted coverage with STABs, no Pursuit weak and the ability to act as a good switch-in to Politoed/Ninetales for Sand teams (Hydreigon which pretty much outclasses Kingdra, risks Ice Beam and rain boosted Hydro Pumps still hurt as hell, same for Ninetales's Fire Blast). Now add the fact that Politoed is in one out of four teams, and this means that 25% of the time you will have a deadly weapon in your hands, while the other 75% of the times you will still have a viable but somewhat outclassed poke in your team. It all comes down to if your team struggles with rain teams really. You can have a huge weakness to rain teams, put in a Specs Kingdra, and call it a day, as Specs Kingdra is just that deadly in perma-rain. Sweeping with Hydro Pump is an easy task once you eliminate their Grass-type/Tentacruel, which Kingdra can do itself (except from Ferro).
  4. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    yo specs kingdra should be the first set

    Not even kidding. It hits like a fucking truck and is excellent against pretty much every weather. It damn near 6-0s rain, it's got Grass neutrality and a 4x resistance to Fire, and spanks the majority of sand teams as well. It's got bulk, doesn't take a turn to set up, and is aces against the most popular team archetype.

    I'd also suggest that the set have Draco Meteor / Hydro Pump / Dragon Pulse / Surf OR Hidden Power Fire. Most of the time the reason to carry Kingdra is specifically to beat Rain, and that means that HP Fire is going to be mostly useless. Also, slashing Ice Beam would be smart because of Amoonguss, who is a big big bitch.
  5. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    Yeah, HP Fire is pretty meh in the last slot, although I guess in the sun, it can hurt Ferrothorn if you REALLY want it to. Hydro Pump does a very similar amount of damage to Ferrothorn in the rain anyway (Hydro Pump is 120 x 1.5 x 1.5 / 2 = 135 BP, while HP Fire is 140 BP in the rain). I pretty much prefer DM / Dragon Pulse / Hydro Pump / Surf. When you have near perfect coverage in your STABs, there is little reason to use anything else other than those STABs.
  6. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I think that Ice Beam should get a slash in the last slot, as it is the only move that Kingdra has to 2hko SpDefensive Celebi. No DM can't 2hko Celebi, it has 7% chance after SR, while Ice Beam guaranteed 2hkoes with SR, and has 54% chance without it.
  7. Colonel M

    Colonel M JESUS BIRD HAS RETURNED
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    I can test it if you want, but I really think SubDD Kingdra should stay. It has a sick advantage of being able to take advantage of bulky Water-types with Substitute, and it has a x4 resistance to Scalds that constantly plague with the metagame. While it is true that Pokemon such as Swampert can kind of halt the process with STAB Earthquake, it shouldn't completely deter the usage of it. Furthermore, this has a slightly easier time with Pokemon such as Vaporeon because both of its STABs aren't completely blocked via Protect / Water Absorb like Gyarados's is.

    I think I have a problem with Substitutes.
  8. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    I appreciate the help. I'm putting Substitute + Dragon Dance in there purely because of the ridiculous amount of defensive threats (looking at you, bulky waters) that mindlessly attempt to use status on Kingdra.

    @ Choice Specs Kingdra in general

    Of course Choice Specs is gonna be included, since, on its own, it's a good set. I, however, am merely questioning its actual potential in comparison to other sets, and why it should be so high up the analysis. Being above the Rain Dance sets, of all things, is also worth some consideration. I'll roger SDS's recommendation for now, but I'll test all special attacking Kingdra and determine what's up.

    I also added Ice Beam to the last slot for the bulkier Grass-types.

    Additionally, I have included the following set, which has been forgotten for quite a while now.

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Rain Dance
    move 1: Rain Dance
    move 2: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Substitute / Toxic
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Swift Swim
    nature: Modest
    evs: 208 HP / 216 SpA / 84 Spe
  9. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    AccidentalGreed, you most likely want to slash Ice Beam in the place of Signal Beam on Offensive Rain Dance, since now we also have Amoonguss added into the mix of bulky Grass-types. Signal Beam only hits Celebi, whereas Ice Beam hits both and more.
  10. EonX

    EonX Rise Above
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    Another thing about Specs Kingdra is that it's a lot more difficult to revenge kill with priority. The other main Specs Dragons (Latios and Hydreigon) are both weak to Ice Shard, a move Kingdra is neutral to. This means that Mamoswine has a much harder time revenging a semi-healthy Kingdra. Kingdra is also resistant to Bullet Punch, meaning Scizor has the same issues Mamoswine does. While Specs Kingdra is able to steamroll rain teams and do a pretty decent number on Sand teams, its defensive utility over other Specs Dragons shouldn't be overlooked either imo. It isn't Pursuit bait after a DM like Latios is and it is much more difficult to revenge kill with priority thanks to its Ice neutrality and Steel resistance. The Specs set also doesn't require a turn of setup, (unlike all of Kingdra's other sets) thus letting Kingdra let loose with its STAB moves right off the bat. There are very few reliable initial switch-ins to it thanks to the wide neutral coverage of its STABs, which help to make up for the power drop compared to Latios and Hydreigon.

    Just my 2 (or 3) cents worth on Specs Kingdra.
  11. Colonel M

    Colonel M JESUS BIRD HAS RETURNED
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    I tested Kingdra as SubDD. Maybe it's just me, but I can't quite get the right ways to accomplish it. I think it's primary problem is that, by investing in its defenses and HP, it's too weak. You also need Jolly with 136 Speed. This nets you faster than Jolteon after a Dragon Dance and faster than Scarf Terrakion after 2.

    The EV spread we kind of discussed was 120 HP | 128 Atk | 124 Def | 136 Spe Jolly. The EVs allow Kingdra to take a U-turn from Landorus, which is kind of a good benchmark. I think it fails versus Landorus-T, though. I would say scrap it. I think I would rather use ChestoRest since, after Politoed is removed, it can set up Dragon Dance, Rest off, then go to town.

    Mention it in OO though. It has some cool advantages like being able to withstand Lanturn and Forretress Volt Turns, which can be useful to help set up your Substitute and Dragon Dance up. The issue is that Gastrodon can break the Substitute as well as Jirachi with Thunder and Jellicent with Shadow Ball. So yeah, it's kind of lame in comparison to Gyarados.
  12. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    Sure thing.

    I see. I didn't expect it to fall so far in your experience, since many defensive threats are reliant on status to check Kingdra, but that's an area that the ChestoRest set can fix. I'll go test it out a little more before making my official judgement on it, but I trust yours.

    On a side note, bulky Rain Dance is performing better than I expected it to. It might make it in place.
  13. asterat

    asterat

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    Rain dance kingdra is rare and somewhat ineffective. If not #1 and #2 chestorest and SubDD should be #2 and #3
  14. Colonel M

    Colonel M JESUS BIRD HAS RETURNED
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    SubDD has weird time setting up. You would almost have to go to the extremes of being defensive to really be able to set up Substitute and Dragon Dance. Outrage can be a mixed bag, too - you can use it early in the match, but after 2-3 turns you're likely switching out. It's fine lategame of course.

    Gyarados just has superior natural bulk despite its quadruple weakness to Electric. The Flying-type also helps Gyarados set up on Gastrodon that don't have Storm Drain activated.
  15. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    Okay.

    I highly doubt your familiarity with Kingdra due to the following:

    • If SubDD's current status (meaning: it not being up on the BW analysis already, and the set currently being under scrutiny under Colonel M and me) isn't already any indication of its actual viability, then claiming it to be so high on the analysis is somewhat suspect.

    • Your claiming Rain Dance Kingdra to be ineffective. In the most reasonable way possible, I will say this: Rain Dance Kingdra is most definitely viable and effective in the metagame right now. Being able to utterly quash things with a double-boosted Hydro Pump (which is pretty fricking powerful if you've ever tested out Keldeo) without prior setup AND outrunning the most common Choice Scarf users in the metagame in a flash is NOT ineffective. Also being able to mess up other weathers in one turn is also "not bad." You also OHKO some of the most semi-bulky threats in the game, which says something considering Latias, Scizor, Rotom-W, and many others are all over the place. Conclusion: definitely not ineffective, and more immediately destructive and reliable than most other sets.

    • I hardly believe "rarity" to have significant correspondence to viability.
    I'll go test out SubDD Kingdra later.
  16. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Where's the soul in soldier on?
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    Mention Magnezone as a great partner, because fuck steels and yes to Thunder in Rain.

    Perhaps Icy Wind can be used on the Specs set; because for Kingdra, so speed isn't much of an issue. However, since Drizzle is so common Kingdra doesn't really need to become very much faster, so I'd say an AC mention is good enough.
  17. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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    On Specs Kingdra, by giving its speed evs to 232, it now outspeeds Adamant Gliscor outside of rain.

    Make satk evs 240, and keep the HP. Since its specs it shouldn't effect its performance too much, mind you this is only if you run timid. Modest spread should stay the same.
  18. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I really don't think Specs should be the first set, even if it might work reasonably well.

    I must say that I find Specs difficult to justify over Life Orb in general. An offensive Life Orb set can do so much more damage because it can set up its own rain. Not only does it punish opposing rain teams, but it also punishes every other weather team as well. It can also switch moves, meaning no real prediction is required. If you are using Specs, it will mainly be for the slight advantage in bulk gained over Life Orb. Ultimately, though, Kingdra's bulk is average. I think it's best just to do the largest amount of damage before going down, unless you're going to invest in defenses, in which case you have the bulky swimmer set.

    The sets look OK to me though. I'm not an enormous fan of chestorest because the rest is often telegraphed and merely results in Kingdra being statused again. Full paralysis is also really annoying. So if you could just add those things as a warning that would be great.
  19. Bribery

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    I know it's being tested but I really think SubDD should stay. IMO it's a lot better than ChestoRest in this metagame. IIRC, the original intent of the ChestoRest set was to setup on Bulky Waters. These days that's very risky. Rest is really easy to predict against any experienced player and the risk of Scald burns make it risky to setup against Bulky Waters. Similarly, Paralysis makes it difficult to setup with ChestoRest. SubDD doesn't have this problem. Both are similar but the advantages of SubDD over ChestoRest is that Substitute protects it from status (continuously), crit hax, and Intimidate (IIRC).

    I think a spread of 40 HP / 228 Atk / 8 Def / 232 Spe with an Adamant nature is good for the SubDD set. Kingdra really needs all the power it can get so such a defensive spread isn't necessary. The main goal of SubDD is to setup on water types and Kingdra's typing alone lets it do that easily. Even Scarf Toed's Hydro Pump in the Rain won't break it's Sub. 232 Speed gives it enough speed to outrun Scarf Latios after 2 DDs or in the Rain, and Jolteon at +1. The HP EVs let it create 4 Substitutes from full health. The 8 def EVs along with the HP EVs ensure that SDef Jirachi's Body Slam cannot break Kingdra's Sub. Magnezone is an obvious partner, as are anything that can get rid of Ferrothorn.
  20. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    Sorry I haven't responded in so long. It's pretty hard to actually do stuff when all you have is mobile on a Mexican island. As for SubDD, I'm still testing that, since I had little time to do that before indulging in resorts and dinner buffets :|

    Anyways, onto the analysis, here's what I've done.

    • Thanks to QC chat an jc104's reasoning, I put the Choice Specs set just below the Rain Dance set. It's still up there.
    • Changed the EVs for the Choice Specs set. This time, it's a simple 252 SpA / 252 Spe spread, intended for the Timid nature. Since little extra HP EVs have no known benefit, and Kingdra has a chance to speed tie with Modest/Rash Hydreigon with maximized Speed, I've decided to go this route. It also helps that Timid Kingdra w/ 252 Spe can also revenge kill Adamant Gliscor and Haxorus, no matter if it has HP Fire.
    • The previous EV spread still applies for Modest Kingdra
    • Changed Spe EVs on Bulky Rain Dance set so that Kingdra can outrun 0 Spe Xatu before Rain, and outspeed +1 Adamant/Naughty Salamence in it.
    • Changed EV spread on Mixed Dragon Dance to 118 Atk / 160 SpA / 232 Spe. Outspeeding Jolteon is pretty freaking important, as well as Jolly Breloom (and thus +0 Dragonite) before that. After a Dragon Dance and the Life Orb boost, Outrage is still pretty powerful, hitting harder than 252 Atk Leftovers Kingdra after +1.
    • Officially changed the EV Spread on the ChestoRest set.
    You're welcome to comment on the changes.
  21. shrang

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    Okay, please explain to me what is the point behind the Bulky Rain Dancer set. If you want a bulky rain inducer, you use a Pokemon called Politoed. Kingdra is not a tank, it's a sweeper/cleaner. Its bulk is alright, but is much better taken advantage of with boosting sets. I mean, I can see the appeal that you want your 4x Water and Fire resistance to stick around for a bit, but seriously, I don't see it warranting a separate set. I'd just AC the whole spread and Leftovers onto the Rain Dance attackers, to be honest.
  22. Colonel M

    Colonel M JESUS BIRD HAS RETURNED
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    I actually didn't notice this, but an RMT has SubDD Kingdra in it. Just in case your testing doesn't work out, maybe try it with this team and see how it works. I can do it, too, if you would like.
  23. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene +Dread Arceus: the edgier the name, the higher the crit rate
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    For the SubDD set, I think a more offensive spread of 40 HP / 224 Atk / 16 Def / 228 Spe with an Adamant nature (credit to the RMT Colonel M linked to) should be given a slight mention in the AC. This gives Kingdra a lot more power at the expense of some bulk, but even then, the spread seen above gives Kingdra's subs enough bulk to withstand a Body Slam from specially defensive Jirachi, which is notable. Just a note.
  24. BlackLight

    BlackLight

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    Very small nitpick, on the Mixed Dragon Dance set, you have 118 Attack EVs. 116 EVs is the closest you can put in that actually have value, since 2 are wasted EVs.
  25. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    Okay, after testing it out extensively (with a good amount of support with Gothitelle), Substitute + Dragon Dance is now in the analysis... but just not with the defensive spread I posted earlier, since you might as well use ChestoRest for that.

    Other than that, the whole analysis is ready for review! Eat it up.

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