Kingdra (Full Revamp) +

[Bourbon]

no Substitute set? I have been running the first set, with Susbtitute and maximum HP. Most bulky waters cannot break your substitute with Ice Beam, turning them into set-up bait. Bronzong poses no threat either. I can usually get up 2-3 dragon dances, then I start waterfalling everything.

52 Special Defense EVs guarantees that even Vaporeon cannot break your substitute with Ice Beam. It's at least "EVs" material. 248 HP / 96 Atk / 52 SpD / 112 Spe. Outruns Gengar after a Dragon Dance, and it's substitute survives almost any attack from a bulky water (excluding swampert's EQ). Cressilia's Psychic has a 15% chance to break your substitute, I set up on that duck-whore a few times.

On the Ubers set I am 100% sure that the "ohko" on Groudon didn't factor in the Sun.

 

[RaikouLover]

Everything looks good Maniac. My only complaint is the Rain Dance special set. For EVs, I think you can spare an extra 12 for speed to hit 247, since that will put you past +natured Scarf base 100s in the Rain (I've seen a few Scarf + Salamences and it is only a few EVs...).

Also, Surf + Dragon Pulse + Signal Beam > Surf + Ice Beam + Hidden Power Electric. Ice Beam only 2HKOs Celebi if you predict the switch in, and Surf + Ice Beam will never kill Celebi. Hidden Power Electric does pretty much the same damage to all other water pokemon except Gyarados (Defensive empoleon is rare as fuck), who will lose to Kingdra in the Rain anyway, since only the offensive version can muster a 2HKO unboosted, but will fall victim to Dragon Pulse before that happens anyway. Furthermore, with Surf / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Electric, you lose to other Kingdra! They are coming increasingly more common... If Surf + Dragon Pulse is hitting everything neutral already, Why wouldn't you just add Signal Beam to take out 2 of your counters?

Also, I don't like how Empoleon is mentioned as the #1 counter. Yeah, it resists your attacks, but Waterfall in the Rain from Mixdra does ~45%... and Empoleon doesn't exactly threaten Kingdra back... it really just slows it down a bit. Dragon Dance Kingdra's fear Empoleon even less since they are sporting souped up Outrage and half of them have Substitute to block Yawn, and Kingdra doesn't really give a shit about a weak Grass Knot.

I think Yawn should also be an option next to Hydro Pump and Substitute on the Dragon Dancer set. I've tried it; Yawning a counter forcing them to switch out is MARVELOUS while you Dragon Dance in the face of something that isn't adept at handling Kingdra. Yawn works fantastically with a Lum Berry also, I've Yawned Celebi switch ins. Dragon Dance while the T-Wave me... then they fall asleep and have to face +1 Kingdra with their best counter snoozing.

The Dragon Dance set also needs mention of an alternate EV spread if you opt for Substitute.

 

[gengod]

no Substitute set? I have been running the first set, with Susbtitute and maximum HP. Most bulky waters cannot break your substitute with Ice Beam, turning them into set-up bait. Bronzong poses no threat either. I can usually get up 2-3 dragon dances, then I start waterfalling everything.

There is no point to making another set just to use Substitute. I'll mention another EV spread for the DDance set if you want to go bulky.

52 Special Defense EVs guarantees that even Vaporeon cannot break your substitute with Ice Beam. It's at least "EVs" material. 248 HP / 96 Atk / 52 SpD / 112 Spe. Outruns Gengar after a Dragon Dance, and it's substitute survives almost any attack from a bulky water (excluding swampert's EQ). Cressilia's Psychic has a 15% chance to break your substitute, I set up on that duck-whore a few times.

I'll add all this in at some point.

On the Ubers set I am 100% sure that the "ohko" on Groudon didn't factor in the Sun.

You would be 100% wrong.

Everything looks good Maniac. My only complaint is the Rain Dance special set. For EVs, I think you can spare an extra 12 for speed to hit 247, since that will put you past +natured Scarf base 100s in the Rain (I've seen a few Scarf + Salamences and it is only a few EVs...).

I'll edit that in

Also, Surf + Dragon Pulse + Signal Beam > Surf + Ice Beam + Hidden Power Electric. Ice Beam only 2HKOs Celebi if you predict the switch in, and Surf + Ice Beam will never kill Celebi. Hidden Power Electric does pretty much the same damage to all other water pokemon except Gyarados (Defensive empoleon is rare as fuck), who will lose to Kingdra in the Rain anyway, since only the offensive version can muster a 2HKO unboosted, but will fall victim to Dragon Pulse before that happens anyway. Furthermore, with Surf / Ice Beam / Hidden Power Electric, you lose to other Kingdra! They are coming increasingly more common... If Surf + Dragon Pulse is hitting everything neutral already, Why wouldn't you just add Signal Beam to take out 2 of your counters?

I'll rewrite it.

Also, I don't like how Empoleon is mentioned as the #1 counter. Yeah, it resists your attacks, but Waterfall in the Rain from Mixdra does ~45%... and Empoleon doesn't exactly threaten Kingdra back... it really just slows it down a bit. Dragon Dance Kingdra's fear Empoleon even less since they are sporting souped up Outrage and half of them have Substitute to block Yawn, and Kingdra doesn't really give a shit about a weak Grass Knot.

I made a mention of an Empoleon focusing on Defense as a "counter" to the Dragon Dance set but i'll reword it to include the mixed set. And if not Empoleon then what do you suggest be the #1 "counter". Tangrowth and Celebi are the only other things that comes to mind and they are mentioned as a counters to the DD set but they fail miserably at stopping mixed or special variants.

I think Yawn should also be an option next to Hydro Pump and Substitute on the Dragon Dancer set. I've tried it; Yawning a counter forcing them to switch out is MARVELOUS while you Dragon Dance in the face of something that isn't adept at handling Kingdra. Yawn works fantastically with a Lum Berry also, I've Yawned Celebi switch ins. Dragon Dance while the T-Wave me... then they fall asleep and have to face +1 Kingdra with their best counter snoozing.

In the end it doesn't really matter. Anything at all can go in that final slot Yawn, Rest, Flail, Signal Beam....whatever. I don''t really see a need to clutter the set with it especially if i'm going to add an additional section to it about alternate EVs.

 

[Bourbon]

Duh, sorry, I read that as "waterfall OHKOing", didn't realise it was still talking about Draco Meteor :S

 

[RaikouLover]

Well, yeah... now that I think of it.. Empoleon kind of is the best "counter." Kingdra can do so much damage with most of its sets. I find Celebi is the best counter to most sets other than the Special Rain. It can break your subs with Grass Knot, and can Thunderwave non-sub Kingdras. I doubt a DD Life Orb Outrage OHKOs it all the time, so I guess that is the best bet. Also, mixdra can get by it also with Hydro Pump + Draco... but I would still venture to say it is the best. The main tactic really is luring an outrage on a bulky water than bringing in a steel. That, and explosion.

 

[maddog]

the best kingdra counter imo is jirachi. just pump phyiscal defense, and try and make kingdra outrage. you only take like 22% from it, and jiarchi can take it on with thunder (one of the best moves jirachi has imo) or body slam. it has good special defense to take a hydro pump, resists draco meteor, and doesn't give a shit about substitute either.

 

[RaikouLover]

I dont think so. Jirachi needs luck to beat Kingdra. Mixdra destroys it because it can't switch in. Even if it doesn't switch in... you have to hope waterfall doesn't flinch you and then hope for the 60% paralysis. These aren't terrible odds at all, but I usually keep Kingdra in and destroy it, hydro pump whomps 75% of its HP.

Luring an Outrage to a steel is the best way to counter Kingdra, but that is only the physical sets that use outrage.... and the subDD set can get around it by only Outraging with a Sub up (I try to do that).

 

[Great Sage]

Trim the damage calculations for the mixed set to the most important ones. Right now it looks like a bulky wall of numbers, which isn't appealing to read.

 

[cim]

iirc empoleon only needs 252 HP to not be 2hkoed my dd outrage and then it can yawn it out. So technically it needs no defense investment to beat kingdra...

Empoleon can also Knock Off, Roar, or Specs Ice Beam it.

 

[gengod]

Edited.

 

[Stellar]

Last chance for anyone to point out corrections. Giving this another day.

 

[Bourbon]

no Substitute set? I have been running the first set, with Susbtitute and maximum HP. Most bulky waters cannot break your substitute with Ice Beam, turning them into set-up bait. Bronzong poses no threat either. I can usually get up 2-3 dragon dances, then I start waterfalling everything.

52 Special Defense EVs guarantees that even Vaporeon cannot break your substitute with Ice Beam. It's at least "EVs" material. 248 HP / 96 Atk / 52 SpD / 112 Spe. Outruns Gengar after a Dragon Dance, and it's substitute survives almost any attack from a bulky water (excluding swampert's EQ).

At least in the EVs section, please?

 

[RaikouLover]

Minor nitpick... but I don't think the Rain Dance sets should be so close to the bottom. They are more used than pretty much all of the sets up there except the original Dragon Dancer. I haven't seen double dance in weeks, and have only seen a RestTalk Dancer a few times, yet Rain Dance teams in general seem to be on the rise. I would probably fix this, especiall since the first line of Mixdra says "This is arguably one of Kingdra's most destructive set," and then its sitting so close to the bottom. Just something to note.

 

[cim]

The first DD set can use the Double Dance EVs very well to make bigger Substitutes. This has made the difference between being able to set up and not being able to sometimes, too... not too important I guess.

 

[Colonel M]

I just need to point out that the article has transitions from DP -> Platinum. Recalling off the top of my head, it should simply speak as the moves and such were available in D/P.

 

[Venetian Masque]

Edited in the analysis.
[SET]
name: Rain Dance (Special)
move 1: Rain Dance
move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
move 3: Dragon Pulse
move 4: Signal Beam / Hidden Power Electric
item: Life Orb / Damp Rock
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Modest
evs: 92 HP / 252 SpA / 164 Spe

[...]

<p The EVs generate 244 Speed, which allows you to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar before you Rain Dance, and positive natured Scarfed base 100s while its raining.</p>

Just a small nitpick, but 164 Speed EVs, according to Shoddy (which may be incorrect), claims that Kingdra has 247 Speed.

 

[RaikouLover]

Yeah, that should be fixed, but 247 was the intended speed since it will outrun Maximum Speed Positive 100 Scarfers like Salamence, etc. in the Rain. It was suggested since it was only 3 more stat points.

 

[MetaNite]

There's no Choice Bander now that it has Outrage??

[SET]
name: Physical Choice
move 1: Waterfall
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Hydro Pump
move 4: Ice Beam / Toxic
item: Choice Band
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Naughty / Lonely
evs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 24 SpA / 164 Spe

[SET COMMENTS]
<p>Kingdra was often scoffed in the past for its poor offensive movepool. Not anymore however, as Kingdra has earned some new toys namely Outrage and physical Water STAB which can make for a decent Choice Bander. In the rain is where this set becomes most lethal, and is an asset to most Rain Dance teams. Instead of attempting to set up, Kingdra can charge at the foe straight away. A Choice Band Watefall in the rain has about a 40% chance to OHKO a max HP/Def Hippodown after Stealth Rock and will 2HKO any Blissey, something every Rain Dance teams needs.</p>

<p>When you're not in the rain Outrage becomes your most powerful attack, and Hydro Pump becomes deadly to most physical walls, 2HKOing both Forretress and Skarmory aswell as just about every bulky Ground type. The last move is up to preference. Toxic can wear down Pokemon such as Vaporeon and Suicune, while Ice Beam can kill off Tangrowth.</p>

<p>Max your Attack, and the Speed EVs for this set allow Kingdra to outspeed Jolly Tyranitar and most those who aim to outspeed it. You also are able to outspeed +natured 100 base speed Choice Scarf users in the rain. The Special Attack EVs garuntee the kills on the aformentioned physical walls, while the rest get thrown into your Hit Points. Choice Scarf is also an option, but a lesser one as you'll be using this in rain most likely which already doubles your speed or you will miss out on the significant power boost of the Band.</p>

Just thought Kingdra needed one. Most Rain Dance sweepers are special, and the main physical one, Kabutops, is quite frail with all those weaknesses.

 

[Jibaku]

It also allows it to OHKO 252 HP / 0 Sdef Groudon after it switches into Waterfall and Stealth Rock

How does it OHKO something when that said something takes damage from a Pokemon attack beforehand? Shorten OHKO to KO.

It's pretty much the same as saying "with these EVs, Scizor can OHKO Mewtwo with Bullet Punch after it switches in on X-Scissor." Of course Mewtwo isn't going to straight up switch in to Scizor, but it's pretty parallel IMO.

 

[RaikouLover]

Tested the Choice Band.... holy shit that thing is powerful! I suggest people actualy test this thing... I've nailed a few Zapdos' switching in pretty hard, and it 2HKOs Vaporeon, etc.

 

[MetaNite]

Oh yeah, I forgot I posted that set. Any comments / corrections? Is it worthy to be added to the analysis, or just other options?

Like RaikouLover said, its surprisingly powerful. Especially Outrage.

 

[darkie]

Don't reference Pt changes in the set comments.

edit: I was referring to "Kingdra was often scoffed in previous generations for its poor offensive movepool. This generation however, Kingdra has earned some new toys namely Outrage and physical Water STAB which can make for a decent Choice Bander."

 

[Caelum]

A Choice Bander with 2 Special Moves and Toxic as an option is weird to me. Usually 1 Special Move for something random is alright but 1/2 of the set being Special is bizarre to me. I'd like more opinions on it. However,

[SET]
name: Physical Choice
move 1: Waterfall
move 2: Outrage
move 3: Hydro Pump
move 4: Ice Beam / Toxic
item: Choice Band
ability: Swift Swim
nature: Naughty / Lonely
evs: 68 HP / 252 Atk / 24 SpA / 164 Spe

Shouldn't the "extra" 68 EVs go into SpA rather then HP since you are using so many Special moves? Just a thought.

 

[MetaNite]

They could go into Special Attack, but it won't grant you any more notable kills as far as I know.

Does seem kind of bizzare, but you'll rarely need anything but the first 3 moves, and Kingdra's only other notable physical option is Return. In the last slot, Sleep Talk could actually work well since if it picks Outrage you can still switch out next turn I believe.

And I got rid of the words "previous generations", and "this generation".

 

[Jumpman16]

ive only really skimmed responses but i dont think this has been addressed (its still in the op at any rate):

Sleep Talk will either choose Dragon Dance or Outrage, both of which will prove to be problematic to any opponent.

since when? afaik st can always pick rest

besides that, obligatory "kingdra is uber" remark, i'm like dying to use this thing in both the BT and on shoddy, and like at least three sets at that