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OU Kingdra

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by TRC, Jan 20, 2014.

  1. TRC

    TRC regal
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    Overview
    ########
    Kingdra is one of many new Pokemon that benefited in the transition from BW to XY; however, instead of receiving a new move or being retyped, Kingdra benefits from the changes around it: the unbanning of the Drizzle + Swift Swim combination and the change to critical hit mechanics. With these changes, Kingdra can take advantage of rain to sweep with blazing Speed and great mixed attacking capabilities, or it can run a set which is guaranteed to always obtain a critical hit, working fantastically with Kingdra's Sniper ability by boosting every attack 2.25x. This also allows Kingdra's attacks to ignore defensive boosts that have been acquired by opponents, while effectively negating the Special Attack drops from usage of Draco Meteor. It also has a reasonable Attack stat which allows it to go mixed when it wants in order to break through special walls. However, it suffers from the fact that its Speed and bulk are slightly underwhelming at times, and when it is utilizing a rain sweeper set, the nerf to the amount of times rain lasts gives it a time limit on using its Swift Swim and Water-type STAB boosts.

    Mixed Rain Sweeper
    ########
    name: Mixed Rain Sweeper
    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Outrage / Rain Dance
    move 4: Waterfall / Surf
    item: Life Orb
    evs: 64 Atk / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
    nature: Rash / Modest

    Moves
    ========
    This Kingdra set is used to sweep in the rain with its Swift Swim boost and the boost to its Water-type STAB. Hydro Pump is Kingdra's most powerful Water-type STAB move, as it deals massive damage to anything in the rain and is generally the preferred choice. Its shaky accuracy can be a problem, so Surf can be used as a more reliable alternative. Draco Meteor is a secondary STAB move; it is powerful, though a use of it will halt Kingdra's sweep. It is essential in breaking through bulky Water-types, and other things that resist Hydro Pump. Outrage is the main option here, as it can be used after a Draco Meteor to beat many threats that would otherwise wall you after the Special Attack drop, such as Rotom-W and Mega Venusaur. It also is great against Rotom-W and specially defensive Pokemon, but it does have a nasty side effect of locking Kingdra into it, so Rain Dance can be used instead to lessen Kingdra's reliance on Pollitoed to sweep. Waterfall is a physical Water-type STAB move that deals hefty damage to Blissey and Chansey in rain, and like Outrage, it is an excellent move to use after a Draco Meteor; it is also helpful in breaking through specially defensive Tyranitar variants. However, Surf can be used in this slot as a reliable special Water-type STAB move. Ice Beam is a handy coverage move to 2HKO Grass-type threats, including Celebi after Stealth Rock, but it is often out-damaged by Kingdra's other moves, especially in the rain, while as an alternative to Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse is good for Water-types when the Draco Meteor Special Attack drop is undesirable; as always, the accuracy is helpful as well.

    Set Details
    ========
    Kingdra uses full Special Attack investment, as it is its most commonly used offensive stat, and 192 Speed EVs let it outrun Deoxys-S in the rain. All of the remaining EVs should be put into Attack to benefit Outrage and Waterfall. Alternatively, one can run a spread of 32 Atk / 240 SpA / 228 Spe, allowing Kingdra to outpace Choice Scarf Latios in the rain, or 80 Atk / 252 SpA / 176 Spe to outspeed anything up until Choice Scarf Garchomp. Sets using no physical moves should run a Modest nature and use a spread of 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe. Life Orb is the preferred item to boost the power of Kingdra without locking it into one move.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    Rain doesn't last long, whether from a Politoed with a Damp Rock or Kingdra's own Rain Dance. Make sure to take advantage of the amount of time you have; use it as efficiently as possible. If you predict a foe to switch out, use the appropriate move to dent the switch-in rather than doing negligible damage to them. Kingdra sweeps best late-game after foes like Ferrothorn are removed, but if it is a win condition for you earlier in the game, go for it. With Life Orb and Kingdra's susceptibility to all entry hazards, it is wise to bring Kingdra in on a double switch or after a teammate has fainted. However, its handy 4x resistances to Fire- and Water-type moves does allow it the reassurance of being able to safely switch in on these moves.

    Team Options
    ========
    Politoed is a mandatory partner for the rain it provides, particularly for sets that don't run Rain Dance. Other rain setters such as Deoxys-S work well on the sort of offensive teams that Kingdra fits on. Kingdra should also be paired with other rain sweepers such as Ludicolo, Kabutops, Tornadus-T, and Keldeo. Magnezone and Gothitelle are great partners, as they can eliminate Ferrothorn with Hidden Power Fire; bear in mind that this should be done before rain is set up. Rotom-W makes for a good partner, as it can easily deal with Azumarill while also aiding Kingdra in entering the battle safely with Volt Switch. As mentioned before, Keldeo is a good partner not only because it benefits from rain, but also because it break through Blissey and Chansey. Thundurus can break through bulky Water-types with impunity, and can use U-turn to keep up momentum. Kingdra is also worn down quickly by Life Orb, so Rapid Spin or Defog support is often required to enable Kingdra to stay alive as long as possible. Scizor and Starmie both benefit from rain, so they are generally good choices.

    Rain Wallbreaker
    ########
    name: Rain Wallbreaker
    move 1: Hydro Pump
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Surf / Scald
    move 4: Ice Beam / Dragon Pulse / Sleep Talk
    item: Choice Specs
    evs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
    nature: Modest

    Moves
    ========
    This set plays as an excellent wallbreaker, blasting holes in teams with its STAB moves. Hydro Pump is the most powerful Water-type STAB move Kingdra has access too, and it is used to punch holes in things early-game, making it easy for a teammate to clean up. Draco Meteor is mainly for blasting holes in the Pokemon that resist Water, including Dragon-types such as Dragonite, Latios, and Kyurem-B. Surf is used as your reliable STAB move for the late-game, though Scald is an option as well. While the difference between the two may seem inconsequential, Surf's higher power lends Kingdra the ability to clean through teams more easily, while Scald's burn chance is in particular really helpful for Kingdra as the burn cripples some of its best checks, such as Ferrothorn, Azumarill, and Mega Venusaur. There isn't really much that can be covered with the last slot, but Ice Beam does the most against bulky Grass-types such as Amoonguss and Chesnaught, Dragon Pulse is another reliable STAB move which can be used against Pokemon such as Garchomp without forcing you out, and finally, Sleep Talk is an option as you have what you will need the majority of the time in the first three moveslots, so Kingdra can be used to absorb the sleep move and possibly still be able to blast through things later in the game, as rain will likely be up.

    Set Details
    ========
    With the specified EV spread, Kingdra outruns Deoxys-S in the rain, has full Special Attack investment, and saves the rest of the EVs for bulk. Kingdra is fast enough in the rain for it to not require a Speed-boosting nature, so Modest is perfectly fine.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    This set should only be used on dedicated Rain teams; it offers very little over choices such as Keldeo on a weatherless team. It also must be stressed that while rain is not permanent, this set is bothered less by this, as it doesn't have to worry much about predicting with its attacks as Hydro Pump and Surf are often powerful enough to 2HKO most foes. If using Scald, and Kingdra comes into play while you see that the other team has a Ferrothorn or an Azumarill, you should always use Scald, as those Pokemon will be your most likely switch-in, and the chance to burn them is invaluable.

    Team Options
    ========
    The team options for this set are very similar to those of the first set, except this set does not use Rain Dance, making it rely much more on rain set by other Pokemon. Politoed is the probably the most essential, as its good bulk and ability to setup rain automatically put it in high demand. Deoxys-S is another great choice, as it can setup rain quickly as well as Stealth Rock, which makes it valuable when using Kingdra on heavily hyper offense-oriented teams. On these teams, other rain sweepers are recommended, with Kabutops being one of the the best, but Ludicolo, Seismitoed, and Tornadus-T are other Pokemon that work quite well. Each offers many different advantages to your rain team: Ludicolo threatens bulky Water-types such as Rotom-W, Seismitoed is immune to Thundurus's priority Thunder Wave, which stops most rain sweepers cold, and Tornadus-T can use its STAB Hurricanes at full accuracy in the rain, while also being a useful pivot with U-turn, Regenerator, and its high base Speed. If you're veering towards alternate rain setters, Tornadus has priority on Rain Dance thanks to its Prankster ability, and can also take advantage of the rain with Hurricane.

    CritDra
    ########
    name: CritDra
    move 1: Focus Energy
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Hydro Pump
    move 4: Agility / Hidden Power Fire
    ability: Sniper
    item: Scope Lens
    evs: 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe
    nature: Modest

    Moves
    ========
    With the new critical hit mechanics, using Focus Energy on a Pokemon holding a Scope Lens causes every hit to be a critical hit; with Kingdra's Sniper ability, critical hits do 2.25x damage. Critical hits also bypass Draco Meteor's Special Attack drops and can break through defensive boosters. In this set, Draco Meteor is the main STAB move as it is powerful and it can be used indefinitely without repercussions. As a Water-type move, Hydro Pump in generally the best due to its power, but Surf can be used for the if Hydro Pump's poor accuracy is troubling, even though it is much weaker, especially before a boost. Finally, the last slot is dedicated to which Pokemon Kingdra want's to be able to muscle past. Agility is the main option here for when Kingdra can setup on a predicted switch, and then possibly setup on one move of the switch-in, allowing it to sweep a team with ease from that moment, though Hidden Power Fire can be used for Ferrothorn, an otherwise solid counter. This set can also run Outrage just so that Kingdra can 2HKO Chansey after a Focus Energy.

    Set Details
    ========
    A spread of 64 HP / 252 SpA / 192 Spe allows Kingdra to outspeed Deoxys-S after an Agility, while giving it a bit of bulk to secure boosts and tank priority. However, an alternate EV spread of 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe can be used to outspeed Choice Scarf Garchomp if you are using Agility as well as fully investing in Special Attack, while slotting the rest of the EVs in HP to add a bit of bulk for ease in setting up. A Modest nature is the most preferable to increase power as this set uses mono-special coverage, but if one chooses to use Outrage, a Rash nature could be used instead.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    Utilize Kingdra's ability to force switches to your advantage; this is to allow setup opportunities with Focus Energy or Agility. Focus Energy is the most beneficial setup move to use against defensive teams, as it allows Kingdra to hit massively hard against them, breaking through most defensive staples easily. Against faster, more offensive teams, Agility should be used to outspeed the opposing Pokemon, potentially leading to a sweep with Kingdra's STAB moves. Bear in mind that when using Agility, Kingdra will be affected by Draco Meteor's Special Attack drops, so it can't sweep as effectively against foes that resist Water. However, if you can manage to get up both boosts, Kingdra doesn't have to worry about any of the problems posed by only using one or the other. Kingdra's excellent typing allows it to switch in on Fire- and Water-type moves easily, which is especially helpful against Choice-locked attackers to allow setting up of either Focus Energy or Agility. Unlike most other sweepers, defensive boosters do not bother Kingdra, so this makes Kingdra an excellent way of breaking through these boosters if they start setting up, perfect for acting as a fail-safe.

    Team Options
    ========
    Depending on which coverage move you use, this set has trouble with Ferrothorn or Azumarill, so partners that can take care of these threats for Kingdra are immensely appreciated. Heatran, Conkeldurr, and Talonflame can all deal with Ferrothorn, and Azumarill can easily be eliminated by Mega Venusaur, Manaphy, Celebi, or Aegislash. Scolipede is also a prime partner, as Kingdra's main flaw is its slightly sub-par Speed. Scolipede can Baton Pass Speed and Iron Defense boosts, a Substitute to ease Kingdra in setting up, and can even set up Spikes to help with Kingdra's sweep. In addition, it draws in Fire-type moves, which Kingdra can easily absorb thanks to its 4x resistance to them. Another way of remedying Kingdra's poor Speed is a Sticky Web inducer, such as Galvantula or Smeargle.

    Other Options
    ########
    Substitute + Dragon Dance could see use as an alternate set, but it makes Kingdra much easier to wall as it is limited to only its STAB moves. Sets that run Dragon Dance are usable, but the introduction of the Fairy-type means that Outrage is not a good move to be locked into anymore. Finally, ChestoRest is a possible set, but it limits Kingdra's coverage.

    Checks & Counters
    ########
    **Ferrothorn**: Ferrothorn walls the rain sweeper set completely and can also take anything on the CritDra set bar the rare Hidden Power Fire after a Focus Energy. It can then proceed to cripple Kingdra with Thunder Wave, use Leech Seed, or set up entry hazards.

    **Mega Venusaur**: Mega Venusaur—one of the best defensive Grass-types—is another great answer to Kingdra, as it can switch in on its Water-type STAB and setup Leech Seed to recover itself while draining Kingdra's health.

    **Azumarill**: Azumarill can switch in on any move and OHKO with Play Rough. It can't even be OHKOed by the rare Hidden Power Grass on a critical hit, and it can easily switch in on the rain sweeper set.

    **Sylveon**: Sylveon can switch in on any move and proceed to OHKO with Hyper Voice. It is 2HKOed by Hydro Pump on a critical hit, but Sylveon would almost always switch in as Kingdra uses Focus Energy, so this is hardly relevant.

    **Chansey and Blissey**: Chansey can only be 2HKOed by the rare Outrage from CritDra and can cripple Kingdra with Toxic or Thunder Wave, or simply stall it out with Wish + Protect. Blissey can do a similar job, but only against the CritDra set.

    **Togekiss and Mega Gardevoir**: Specially defensive Togekiss can switch in on a Focus Energy and do hefty damage to Kingdra with Dazzling Gleam. Mega Gardevoir can also switch in on the initial Focus Energy and OHKO with Hyper Voice.
    Last edited: Apr 24, 2014
    Berserking Now likes this.
  2. TRC

    TRC regal
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    Ok, so while this is a WIP, CritDra stays atm. If QC think its definitely worthy of OO, then fine, but other QC have verified its viability so far.
  3. Twin_Scimitar

    Twin_Scimitar

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    I realize this is still heavily WIP, but since the rain set seems mostly done I thought I'd get my thoughts in early.

    Firstly, I don't agree with having Rain Dance as a stand alone 4th move with no slash. While Rain Dance on Kingdra certainly has its merits, you are not always going to want to run it. Kingdra has a variety of useful moves and since it will likely be a rain team's primary sweeper limiting your coverage options by always using Rain Dance doesn't make sense to me. While certain teams may find Rain Dance to be the best move for Kingdra, many teams may find the 8 turns of rain from Damp Rock Politoed to be sufficient. Getting two rounds of 8 turn rain up is not difficult and can often be enough with the correct team support and coverage moves. Teams can even go so far to supplement with wish support from a bulky pivot or wall to increase Politoed's longevity. Even on a special set Rain Dance could be slashed with Waterfall, or Ice Beam (Waterfall for an option after a Draco and Ice Beam for coverage when paired with something like Surf/Draco/Pulse). Lastly, the move notes involving Ice Beam are incorrect. You already cleanly OHKO Gliscor and Landorus-T with Surf out of rain. Ice Beam is mainly for grass pokemon such a Celebi, Breloom, and Trevenant. A one two Punch of Ice beam into Draco Meteor has a small chance of 2HKOing even the Specially Defensive Celebi Variant, and Ice Beam cleans up defensive variants with a clean 2HKO, something you can't do with Dragon Pulse. Just my two cents.

    I'd also like to suggest a Mixdra set I've found to be very useful:

    Kingdra @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 80 Atk / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Mild/Rash Nature
    - Surf
    - Waterfall
    - Draco Meteor
    - Outrage/ Ice Beam / Rain Dance

    The set is walled by few attackers and reaches 500 speed in rain. This is sufficient to outrun Choice Scarf Garchomp. I really don't think outrunning Scarf Latios is that important so far this generation. According to the Usage stats for December Latios is 33rd in usage with Choice Scarf only 15.043%. Latias uses Choice scarf a negligible amount. I can't imagine this changing anytime soon unless there is a Genesect tiering change or a major metagame shift. The more significant loss is that you are out run by +2 DD Dragonite. However, the increase in Attack is relevant, and one can play around the threat with Ice Beam/Perish Song Politoed and/or Priority.

    The above set is walled by very little, Azumaril, Ferrothorn, and Mega-Venusaur being the main exceptions. Outrage is for water resist clean up after a Draco Meteor and Ice Beam is for Celebi, Breloom, and trevenant as previously mentioned. Good teammates are Dragonite and Tornadus-T which help to wear down special walls and deal with the above walls which Kingdra stuggles against. Rotom-W and Rotom-H are also great teammates that one can rely on to switch into Talonflame with ease. The set does rather well against the pink blobs:

    80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Blissey in Rain: 320-376 (44.8 - 52.6%) -- 82.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery
    80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey in Rain: 231-274 (32.8 - 38.9%) -- 99.8% chance to 3HKO

    Blissey is 2HKO'd after stealth rock 82.4% of the time (without protect) and Kingdra does significant damage to Chansey. 20% of the time Kingdra will beat Chansey with a flinch if Chansey switches in to Kingdra, and if no flinch occurs a switch to a U-turn Pokemon or teammate keeps you with a great advantage if Chansey is running Wish/Protect. Likely leaving Chansey with residual damage, and making it unlikely it can stop Kingdra a second time, particularly if entry hazards are in play. In addition to the blobs, Mixdra is able to beat Specially Defensive Sylveon and Togekiss if they switch into Kingdra (though Togekiss loses to the pure special Kingdra if SR is up). Calcs were performed with Surf, remember that you only 2HKO threats with Hydro Pump 64% of the time.

    Mixdra is a great use of Kindra's sweeping capabilities in the rain, allowing the user to continue wall breaking or finish up a lategame sweep after a Draco Meteor takes out a water resist with very little downside compared to the special set.
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2014
  4. DestinyGallade

    DestinyGallade

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    you should put the d dance kingdra set up there, kingdra doesn't need swift swim if it has danced a few times and it has the bulk to do so, its obviously not as good as the other two sets but it can be used if lacking a physical sweeper
  5. losedude

    losedude

    Joined:
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    Messages:
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    With perma-rain being gone, it really hurts Kingdra but I had an Idea. Kingdra can abuse the rain if it sets it up by itself and if it does so, it wont run out too soon.

    Name:rain dance
    Item:damp rock/life orb
    EVs:252spatk/252spe
    Modest nature
    Ability :swift swim
    Move 1:rain dance
    Move 2:hydro pump/surf
    Move 3:dragon pulse/draco meteor
    Move 4:ice beam

    RAin dance is there for sweeping. Damp rock can be held if something else on your teaam can come in and abuse rain for like 1 or 2 turns after Kingdra dies or life orb can be used for power. Hydro pump is there for sheer power and is extremely poweful in the rain with a modest nature (even without life orb). Dragon pulse is here over draco meteor because of draco's special attack drop and you already have a stupidly high powered STAB. Ice beam is here for coverage and i put it here instad of some wierd hidden power because of the nerf it got and ice beam is a freat move anyway.

    Even with the drizzle nerf, I think Kingdra can still do well if it sets rain for itself. Leave your thoughts.
  6. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    rain dance is a main slash on the set
    How does that put you at an advantage? Sure you waste a Protect PP, but it can still scout the switch-in. Also, if Chansey Toxics Kingdra, it dies in three seconds.

    Overall when you can't even reliably beat Chansey or 2HKO Wish + Protect Blissey, I don't think the set is worth it. Togekiss can't beat you with SR anyways, leaving Sylveon, which can just Wish + Protect, stalling your rain turns. OO.
  7. Twin_Scimitar

    Twin_Scimitar

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    With respect, I don't see how Mixdra is not worth it. It's ability to do something to Chansey and Blissey, which otherwise wall it cold is a great advantage. In addition it has other advantages over special kingdra which I will outline in the following. But first, my point on chansey.

    I meant to imply that if you switch to a powerful U-turner such as Choice band or Mega Scizor you are likely to force a switch and can U-turn or very often KO Chansey after the residual damage from Kingdra and entry Hazards from Superpower.
    252+ Atk Mega Scizor Superpower vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey: 424-500 (60.2 - 71%)
    After taking (65.6-77.8%) from switching in and taking a waterfall, after Chansey wishes it will be at 72.2- 85.4%, almost always a KO if SR is down (59.7-71.9% health remaining for Chansey if SR was down).

    On an intrinsic level, it puts you at an advantage no matter your team composition, because you can bring in any member of your team in on a weakened Chansey (59.7-71.9%) if SR was down. Whether you want to U-turn, Superpower, Knock off, or Set up you get to have a chance to bring in a pokemon for free on the turn Chansey protects, thus seizing the initiative.

    To my main argument.

    Here's an important KO Mixdra nets, which beyond the damage calculations, speaks to the overall utility of Mixdra over Specialdra.

    252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 208-246 (57.1 - 67.5%); -2 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Venusaur: 105-125 (28.8 - 34.3%)
    80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Mega Venusaur: 146-173 (40.1 - 47.5%)

    This one two punch is very rarely to be expected from the Venusaur user. It's always a KO with SR and a likely KO without. Special Kingdra most always gets a KO after SR, and a very rare one without. The flexibility that Mixdra gives you during a sweep in such a situation is rather significant. Do you have SR down? Great, use two Draco Meteors to kill the offensive Venusaur you scouted from earlier in the match, and continue to sweep with Waterfall or Outrage. No SR down? Kill it with Outrage. This is not a unique situation, as seen below.

    Here are some examples of problem pokemon in OU. They present common scenarios and analyze the options of Special Kingdra vs. Mixdra:

    1. Rotom-W 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Rotom-W: 173-204 (56.9 - 67.1%) vs. 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 216+ SpD Rotom-W: 113-134 (37.1 - 44%) Outrage kills after Draco. Advantage Mixdra same situation as Mega-Venusaur
    2. Rotom-W Granted: 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 152-179 (50 - 58.8%) However: 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Rotom-W: 231-273 (75.9 - 89.8%); 80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 216+ Def Rotom-W in Rain: 62-74 (20.3 - 24.3%) is workable. Slight advantage Special, however you can continue your sweep with Mixdra if Rotom-W is revenging after a Draco, or continue the sweep with Draco into Waterfall, whereas special must always switch out after wasting turns of rain.
    3. Greninja 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 324-382 (113.2 - 133.5%); Can Continue a sweep with Outrage: 80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Greninja: 242-286 (84.6 - 100%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock; D-Pulse: 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Greninja: 212-251 (74.1 - 87.7%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock Greninja is unlikely to be an initial switch in. In a revenge kill scenario Mixdra has the advantage. In the even it is an initial switch in special dra has a slight advantage if you predict with dragon pulse.
    4. Ferrothorn Walls both.
    5. Mega-Tyranitar 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Tyranitar in Sand: 195-229 (48.2 - 56.6%) Other Tyranitar 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Assault Vest Tyranitar in Sand: 109-133 (26.9 - 32.9%); 80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Waterfall vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Tyranitar: 218-257 (53.9 - 63.6%); 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Surf vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Tyranitar in Sand: 164-195 (40.5 - 48.2%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Leftovers recovery; (Waterfall is the same) Advantage Mixdra
    6. Azumaril Walls both
    7. Gyarados You can't OHKO offensive variants without SR, you most always do with Meteor and SR. D-pulse 2HKO's offensive variants, 2 Meteors does the same and you can continue your sweep with Mixdra. 252 HP variants take more from 2 Dracos. D-pulse always 2hkos with SR, doesn't without, meteor does sometimes. Advantage special.
    8. Conkeldurr 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Surf vs. 4 HP / 252 SpD Assault Vest Conkeldurr in Rain: 175-207 (49.7 - 58.8%) No advantage
    9. Breloom 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 242-286 (92.3 - 109.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock 80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Breloom: 211-250 (80.5 - 95.4%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock; 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 341-403 (130.1 - 153.8%);252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Breloom: 341-403 (105.2 - 124.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO Meteor always kills, Ice Beam Mixdra does fine... Breloom is more likely to revenge kill, if you've already Meteor'd Mixdra is better with Outrage. If it's the first switch in Specialdra is better. Open to Interpretation depending on whether it revenges or is the primary switchin.
    10. Trevenant 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Trevenant: 142-168 (37.9 - 44.9%) -- 5.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock; 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 176+ SpD Trevenant: 200-237 (53.4 - 63.3%); 80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Trevenant: 220-259 (58.8 - 69.2%) Ice Beam is what you want here as I stated in my original post. Draco into Outrage does fine, obviously Ice Beam is best. For Mixdra Outrage vs. Ice Beam is a toss up. Still, you lose nothing by switching out Dragon Pulse for Waterfall, and Ice Beam/Outrage gets the job done. You can continue to do good damage while mixed after a Draco if Trevenant revenges, but only until you are burned, you fail to 2hko. This is a mixed bag, overall Slight Advantage Special
    11. Blissey Advantage Mixdra
    12. Starmie 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 278-329 (106.5 - 126%); 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 183-216 (70.1 - 82.7%); 80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 200-238 (76.6 - 91.1%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock; 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 278-329 (85.8 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock; 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Starmie: 183-216 (56.4 - 66.6%); 80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Starmie: 200-238 (61.7 - 73.4%) If Starmie is the initial switch in Draco Meteor is a must. If it is not the initial switch in Meteor will likely already have been used and Mixdra gives added flexibility (Outrage or swtich out). If Draco has not been used and it revenges, Draco is still best, need specific chip damage for D-pulse to matter 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Surf vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Starmie in Rain: 144-170 (55.1 - 65.1%). Mixdra very slight advantage.
    13. Tentacruel 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 208-247 (57.1 - 67.8%); 80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 240+ Def Tentacruel: 165-196 (45.3 - 53.8%) -- 93.4% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and Black Sludge recovery 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Tentacruel: 138-164 (37.9 - 45%) This is the same situation as Mega-Venusaur and Specially Based Rotom-W. In addition Outrage 2HKOs most always after SR if Tentacruel revenges after having used Draco. Advantage Mixdra
    14. Celebi 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Celebi: 196-231 (48.5 - 57.1%); 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Celebi: 129-152 (31.9 - 37.6%); 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 236 SpD Celebi: 182-216 (45 - 53.4%); 80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Celebi: 175-208 (43.3 - 51.4%) Ice Beam into Draco is your best bet. Dragon Pulse does nothing for you. Draco into Outrage is almost always a 2HKO after SR and lefties. With outrage you lose some ability to make an aggressive prediction. Slight Advantage Special.
    15. Latias 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 390-460 (107.1 - 126.3%); 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 257-304 (70.6 - 83.5%); 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Ice Beam vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 179-213 (49.1 - 58.5%); 80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Latias: 382-452 (104.9 - 124.1%); 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Dragon Pulse vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 257-304 (85 - 100.6%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock As an intial switch in Dragon Pulse has its Merits, especially against the offensive variant (However 60% carry Leftovers, suggesting many high HP sets). So does Ice Beam against and initial switch in. As previously discussed if latias is revenge killing you after a Draco, -2 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 198-234 (65.5 - 77.4%) your only hope is Outrage. Advantage up to interpretation.
    16. Vaporeon 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Vaporeon: 255-302 (54.9 - 65%); 80 Atk Life Orb Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Vaporeon: 173-204 (37.2 - 43.9%) Vaporeon at an effective 100% after SR, and Protect stall Damage is 92.1-108.9% or a 50% chance of Mixdra KO Advantage Mixdra
    17. Chansey Advantage Mixdra

    Let me know if I missed anything significant, I did my best to be impartial and analyze actual battle situations as they are likely to occur.

    tldr: Mixdra with outrage most always nets non SR KOs and allows you to continue the sweep against Mega-Venusaur, Rotom-W, and Tentacruel. The importance of Mega-Venusaur and Rotom-W are in my opinion significant. Mixdra with outrage is able to beat Vaporeon and Tyranitar support variants, while Specialdra cannot. Outrage Mixdra can continue a sweep against water weaks with waterfall after dispatching of checks with your wall breaking moves, Specialdra generally cannont. Specialdra has an advantage against Gyarados. It has a slight advantage against Physical Rotom-W, Trevenant, Celebi, and Starmie when you are correct with an aggressive prediction (Ice beam or Dragon Pulse are weak moves you should generally be tossing around surf/hydro or draco to maximize damage regardless of prediction). Other Pokemon can have an advantage depending on the situation as covered above. Ice Beam Mixdra loses some Utility against non grass threats such as Starmie, Latias, Gyarados, and Greninja, while gaining utility in being able to continue a sweep after a Draco with waterfall, beating Tyranitar, and significantly denting Blissey and Chansey.

    Kingdra @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 80 Atk / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Mild/Rash Nature
    - Surf/Hydro Pump
    - Waterfall
    - Draco Meteor
    - Outrage/ Ice Beam/ Rain Dance

    With this moveset according to my analysis you net KOs after SR and net important KOs without SR with the Outrage Mixdra set (Mega-Venusaur, Rotom-W, Tentacruel, Vaporeon, and Tyranitar). These are popular pokemon in the meta that otherwise wall you, which I don't think is acceptable for a glass cannon sweeper like Kingdra. You have the invaluable flexibility to actually continue to sweep and not waste precious turns of rain switching out after a Draco Meteor that has rendered Kingdra useless. This being said, it is a mixed bag. You do lose some capabilities to forgo the use of Draco Meteor against some grass types and dragon threats, but again as I've pointed out, these checks are poor initial switch ins, and if you face them in a revenge kill type scenario you are likely to already be at -2 after you have taken out the most formidable check. Outrage can also potentially backfire locking you into your attack, however having the optio, when you'd otherwise need to switch out being at -2 is very nice and is a fabulous addition to Kingdra when used intelligently and only after a draco meteor or rarely surf. Even with this disadvantage, the ability to be able to break through very popular threats, continue sweeping after a draco, and denting and threatening Blissey and Chansey make Mixdra arguably superior than special dra, and worth of more than an OO mention in my opinion.

    Thanks for reading, forgive me for any oversights, strongly worded language, or grammar mistakes. This took awhile to write.
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
  8. Namso

    Namso
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    I'm fine with Kingdra using that set. To be honest, it's not that easy to use Rain Dance on Kingdra anyway. You're almost always going to want Politoed or another bulky Rain Dancer to do it for you so you get ample sweeping potential with a 4 attacks mixed set.

    I'm also fine with CritDra. It's not as bad as I previously thought after facing a few of them on the ladder (one of which was Baton Passed Agility, which made it harder to beat). It's still not any better than rain Kingdra in my opinion, but still usable.
  9. Jukain

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    I am happy with that explanation, too.

    Anyone have DD Kingdra experience this gen?
  10. TRC

    TRC regal
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    Twin_Scimitar I am very happy with that logic. Over the next few days, all of this stuff will be implemented. Were you asking for Mixdra to become its own set though, or for it to replace the already existent Rain Sweeper set?
  11. TRC

    TRC regal
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    Never mind, I will replace the current set with the Mixed set, and post when all the changes are put in.
  12. Twin_Scimitar

    Twin_Scimitar

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    I'm glad my play testing with Kingdra has gone to good use. Thanks for hearing me out QC.

    I don't feel too strongly about how the moves are listed, but still here are my thoughts on the move slashes:

    I quickly removed Rain Dance from my Kingdra, 75/95/95 un-invested defenses leave a lot to be desired, so I have little experience with it. Bulky Rain Dancers and Politoed generally give enough opportunities to sweep as Fuzznip stated. However, I can see how some teams with Scarf or Specs Politoed may want to play more aggressively with Politoed and would like an additional Rain Dance setter. Here's my thoughts based on the calculations I've performed and the play experience I have with Kingdra without Rain Dance. The turn after you Rain Dance you are going to either have been hit already for a significant amount or your opponent switched to what one would assume is at least a moderately useful check. This means that Kingdra is at a greater risk than it usually would be of being KO'd and it is much more important to OHKO your opponent. In this situation you'll want to be using Draco Meteor or Hydro Pump/Surf. In fact purely on theorymon I'd say that Hydro Pump would be very fitting for this set in order to net some of these KOs. One example: 252+ SpA Life Orb Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Mega Scizor in Rain: 308-364 (89.5 - 105.8%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO. In any case, my point was that coverage moves such as Ice Beam and Dragon Pulse lose some usefulness since, you rarely if ever OHKO with them. You do still need Outrage to get by certain threats (Rotom-W, Venusuar, Tentacruel, and Vaporeon) and all you really lose out on with waterfall from a wall breaking standpoint are support Tyranitar sets, Blissey, and Chansey (you of course lose the ability to continue sweeping with waterfall in the rain).

    It really depends how QC wants to go about Rain Dance on Kingdra. An OO mention could work fine. I think Mixdra's moveset already has plenty to talk about. For Mixdra without Rain Dance listed I think this is the best bet.

    Kingdra @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 80 Atk / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Mild/Rash Nature
    - Surf / Hydro Pump
    - Waterfall
    - Draco Meteor
    - Outrage / Ice Beam

    Keeping Outrage first is generally preferable in my opinion to KO threats that would otherwise not fall to a second Draco Meteor that simply must be removed for the sake of a team members sweep or when there are no Steel or Fairy Pokemon remaining to Tank your Outrage. Ice Beam on Mixdra is a useful but aggressive prediction option for a 2HKO without using a Draco against grass types. I don't personally think Ice Beam is quite as good as Outrage, but there are certainly advantages to Ice Beam.

    I do have an idea for presenting the set in a clean way including Rain Dance.

    Kingdra @ Life Orb
    Ability: Swift Swim
    EVs: 80 Atk / 252 SAtk / 176 Spd
    Mild/Rash Nature
    - Surf / Hydro Pump
    - Waterfall / Rain Dance
    - Draco Meteor
    - Outrage / Ice Beam

    The analysis could say that when using Rain Dance you are more likely to want Hydro Pump's added power to net OHKOs. This could even be a good spot to mention the disadvantage of spending a turn setting Rain Dance with Kingdra, which is why you should only use it if one's team really needs the additional rain setter. If QC has a problem with Surf coming first in the slash that's fine with me, that's just my personal preference for the accuracy. Waterfall being replaced with Rain Dance is just a guess/preference. Outrage is necessary in order to beat Vaporeon and Celebi, and as previously stated helps with Rotom-W, Offensive Venusaur, and Tentacruel without SR. I've never been without Waterfall on Mixdra though, so if this is what QC wants to do then it should be tested to see what the best 3rd coverage move is. To further clean this up Ice Beam could in my opinion go without a slash as long as it is mentioned in the moves section.
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2014
  13. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I think the Critdra set is pretty straightforward:

    CritDra
    ########
    name: CritDra
    move 1: Focus Energy
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power Grass
    ability: Sniper
    item: Scope Lens
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
    nature: Modest

    Slots one through three are obvious, but the last one depends on what Kingdra wants to lure and eliminate more; HP Fire kills Ferrothorn and HP Grass heavily damages Azumarill.
    TRC likes this.
  14. Namso

    Namso
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    Has anyone tried out Agility + Focus Energy? I think Kingdra can use a more bulky spread with it due to Agility, allowing it to likely set up both Agility and Focus Energy and outpace most of the metagame with a good spread.
  15. TRC

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    Well it limits you to only your STABs, which makes you walled by a lot more.
  16. Namso

    Namso
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    Which is limited to what, Ferrothorn and Azumarill?

    I just hate how Kingdra's so easily revenged with that set, which is why I think it might be interesting to run a bulky spread with Agility.
  17. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    A lot of the point of double booster sets, normally, is not always to set up both boosts, but to be able to choose the boost appropriately. Unfortunately, agility on its own is really bad, because the scope lens does absolutely nothing without focus energy, and one of your attacks cuts your power in half. I'd say if you want to boost both power and speed, you'd be better off using dragon dance (twice) or even just rain dance.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Yeah, Rain Dance + Focus Energy > Agility + Focus Energy. Item-less Kingdra in neutral weather is pathetically weak:

    252+ SpA Kingdra Hydro Pump vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Talonflame: 288-342 (80 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
  19. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    You can't have both sniper and swift swim, so your crits would be rather weak, alexwolf.
  20. Namso

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    Well, DD Kingdra is a worse alternative to Agility + Focus Energy because it's way weaker and slower. Also, Rain Dance doesn't last for very long, while Agility keeps you with +2 Speed until you switch out. Sure itemless Kingdra is kinda weak, but you have the Focus Energy to back you up. I still think there's merit to it.
  21. TRC

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    Ok so which sets should I put in the analysis then? CritDra of course, but what else, and in what order? I've playtested all except SubDD.
  22. Ash Borer

    Ash Borer Throttle Chopper

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    4 Atk Sniper Kingdra Outrage vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Chansey on a critical hit: 370-438 (52.5 - 62.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    worth a mention on critdra? Chansey still beats you if it turtles and spams softboiled, but it prevents it from doing anything and gives you momentum as chansey is forced to softboiled even after your rampage ends letting you switch for free.
  23. TRC

    TRC regal
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    ehh, I can put it in the moves section, but it's a bit circumstantial to be main set material imo.
  24. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Right, brain fart.

    Anyway, i agree that Agility + Focus Energy has merit, and i could easily see Agility getting slashed on the last slot of the Focus Energy set, alongside a bulky spread. 80 HP / 252 SpA / 176 Spe with Modest lets your outrun Scarf Chomp after an Agility, the faster common scarfer i see those days, so it seems as a good benchmark.
  25. TRC

    TRC regal
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    What does everyone think that the mixed set should be? There are an overwhelming amount of options:
    • Hydro Pump
    • Surf
    • Draco Meteor
    • Dragon Pulse
    • Outrage
    • Waterfall
    • Ice Beam
    • Rain Dance
    All of which are either viable or in some way necessary.

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