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Kingler (BW2 Update)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Alonsoforever, Sep 7, 2013.

  1. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    [​IMG]
    Crawdaunt? Who is Crawdaunt...?

    QC: 3/3 ( Soulgazer / Dat Blast / Raseri )
    GP: 2/2 ( Electrolyte / SuperJOCKE )

    [Overview]

    <p>While Kingler's extraordinary Attack stat might make you think it is one of the most fearsome Pokemon in NU, it certainly isn't. This is because it has many flaws that don't allow it to perform well in the current NU metagame. First of all, its bulk is awful, especially on the special side, and this makes it very hard for Kingler to switch in or set up. Furthermore, its Speed is not high enough, so many offensive Pokemon can easily check Kingler, making use of its bad bulk to outspeed and OHKO it. To make matters worse, while Sheer Force is a great ability, it is a waste on Kingler, as it doesn't learn Waterfall. Kingler also faces competion from Samurott, who has much better bulk and isn't as predictable as Kingler, and Carracosta, who has a much easier time setting up; these two have priority in Aqua Jet as well. Not all is bad news for Kingler, though, as its high Attack stat makes it hard to switch into, and its Speed, while not very good, is enough to outspeed many walls and some threats like Seismitoad or Ludicolo, letting Kingler severely damage them via a Choice Band or Swords Dance-boosted attacks.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Substitute + Swords Dance
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Swords Dance
    move 3: Crabhammer
    move 4: Return / X-Scissor
    item: Salac Berry / Lum Berry
    ability: Hyper Cutter
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>With this set, Kingler becomes a decent wallbreaker that can threaten an opposing Pokemon out, set up, and potentially sweep. Substitute plays a very important role in this set, as it lets Kingler set up against walls such as Alomomola and Metang as well as avoid status that could be very detrimental for it. It also prevents Kingler from being revenge killed by faster threats and Choice Scarf users. Crabhammer is Kingler's STAB move and the only viable one it can use, as it doesn't learn Waterfall. While it doesn't have perfect accuracy and is not boosted by Sheer Force, it is a very powerful move with a nice critical hit rate. For the last slot, both Return and X-Scissor are good options as both have nice coverage with Crabhammer. Return provides Kingler with a strong and reliable move against most foes that resist or are immune to Crabhammer, while X-Scissor, even though it is weaker, lets Kingler heavily damage Musharna and many Grass-types, especially after a Swords Dance boost.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>A Salac Berry gives Kingler a chance to sweep; Kingler can be really hard to stop at +2 Attack and +1 Speed. It can be activated by just using Substitute three times. On the other hand, a Lum Berry is also a good option, as it lets Kingler switch in on Pokemon like Alomomola without fearing status. Life Orb can also be used, as it gives Kingler a lot of power. Coupled with Stealth Rock damage and an Adamant nature, it allows Kingler to at least 2HKO almost every Pokemon in the tier, and get some important OHKOs on Pokemon like standard Mandibuzz, Misdreavus, and Musharna. However, Substitute + Life Orb damage reduce Kingler's lifespan considerably. Finally, Leftovers is also an option, as it lets Kingler set up more Substitutes, but this isn't really necessary. A Jolly nature is preferred as it allows Kingler to outspeed Swellow and Adamant Choice Scarf Braviary at +1 Speed, as well as Adamant Sawk, Adamant Braviary, and positive-natured Ludicolo and Samurott without boosts.</p>

    <p>Kingler appreciates having partners that can deal with Grass- and Electric-types, since these Pokemon can easily OHKO it. Camerupt makes a good partner for Kingler as it can beat Grass- and Electric-types with its STAB moves and can also set up Stealth Rock. Pivot Musharna and Probopass can take many moves from faster foes that threaten Kingler, spread paralysis, and ease Kingler's setup via a slow Baton Pass and Volt Switch, respectively. LumRest Exeggutor can beat most Grass-types in the tier with ease, not fearing status and taking little damage from their hits, making it an ideal partner. Finally, the removal of Toxic Spikes is very important for Kingler, as they can make Substitute pointless and make Kingler much more susceptible to being walled by more threats, such as Alomomola. Garbodor and Roselia can do this and set up their own entry hazards as well.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Crabhammer
    move 2: X-Scissor
    move 3: Double-Edge
    move 4: Toxic
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Hyper Cutter
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>A Choice Band gives Kingler immediate power, helping Kingler get past many walls and deal heavy damage without having to set up. Crabhammer is Kingler's strongest STAB move, and when boosted by Choice Band, it 2HKOes any Pokemon that doesn't resist it. It 2HKOes physically defensive Mandibuzz and Weezing with Stealth Rock support, and even Pokemon that resist the attack, such as Serperior, won't enjoy taking it. X-Scissor has good coverge with Crabhammer and allows Kingler to cleanly 2HKO Musharna. Double-Edge is a much more powerful move that also has good coverage with Crabhammer, and is Kingler's most reliable move against Water-, and Dragon-type Pokemon. Double-Edge is also Kingler's best bet against Grass / Poison types. It is a guaranteed 2HKO on physically defensive Seismitoad with just one layer of Spikes, and physically defensive Vileplume with Stealth Rock support, which is quite a feat considering the fact that Double-Edge isn't boosted by STAB. Finally, Toxic is the best option for the last slot, as Kingler doesn't need more coverage and Toxic greatly annoys common switch-ins such as Alomomola, Tangela, and Mandibuzz, putting them on a timer.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>An Adamant nature is used because this set is used to break walls, and Kingler appreciates all the power it can get. A Jolly nature can also be used to outspeed Adamant Sawk, Adamant Braviary, Ludicolo, and Samurott, but the loss of power will be noticeable. Return can be used if Double-Edge's recoil is annoying, as Kingler's low HP makes it unable to take a large amount of recoil damage. However, Kingler really appreciates the power of Double-Edge to beat threats such as Vileplume and Seismitoad. As for good partners for this set, Musharna is a great one. Musharna can provide Kingler with a slow Baton Pass and paralysis support, which Kingler really appreciates. Pairing Kingler with Samurott or Ludicolo is also a good idea as Kingler can weaken their counters, letting them finish off the game. Dragon-types such as Fraxure and Zweilous cover Kingler's weaknesses to Grass- and Electric-type attacks nicely. Fraxure can also make use of Kingler's ability to damage walls to set up and sweep. LumRest Exeggutor makes a great partner for Kingler, due to its ability to beat many Grass- and Water-type Pokemon. Roselia is also a very good partner for Kingler, being able to set up entry hazards, take Electric- and Grass-type attacks aimed at Kingler, and deal with Alomomola and Tangela.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Using both Agility and Swords Dance make Kingler a very threatening sweeper, but it must set up first, which is a problem as it's very hard for Kingler to set up both moves due to its poor bulk. If it only sets Agility up it will lack the power to break through sturdy walls, and if it gets to use Swords Dance it will be outsped and KOed by faster offensive Pokemon. This strategy is not to be dismissed, however, as using both boosting moves at the same time is the way Kingler can be more devastating, but it is a really high risk, high reward strategy that is very difficult to execute. A set consisting of Agility and three attacks can be used as Kingler outspeeds many Pokemon, including Choice Scarf users, after an Agility boost, and can finish a game. A Choice Scarf can be used to patch Kingler's Speed, but it is still outsped by every common Choice Scarf user, and it doesn't pack as much power as the other sets. A Normal Gem can be used in conjunction with Double-Edge to get a really powerful move that OHKOes offensive Ludicolo after Stealth Rock damage, OHKOes Vileplume and has a great chance to OHKO physically defensive Seismitoad after a Swords Dance boost, and OHKOes Alomomola after two Swords Dance boosts; by using these gimmicky strategy, Kingler can lure one of its counters in and net a surprise KO on it, making this good for other offensive Water-types that like having these counters KOed or severely damaged.</p>

    <p> As for other moves, Superpower is an acceptable option to heavily damage Munchlax, Lickilicky, Miltank, and Klang; however, it doesn't offer much coverage, and these threats are already hit hard by Crabhammer. Knock Off is a decent support option to annoy an Alomomola, Tangela, or Frillish switch-in, and also kills Shedinja, but Toxic has, overall, more utility. Sheer Force is a good ability, but Kingler cannot exploit it (sadly, it doesn't learn Waterfall), as its only boosted move would be Rock Slide, which is not worth a slot and doesn't get any important KOs. Sheer Force-boosted Ice Beam 2HKOes Tangela, but otherwise it's a terrible option, as Kingler's Special Attack is really bad. Finally, Hone Claws can be used over Swords Dance as it improves Crabhammer's accuracy, but Kingler really appreciates the power Swords Dance provides.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Kingler is very difficult to directly counter due to its power, which makes switching in on a Crabhammer without being immune to it very difficult. The odd Frillish makes a great counter, as it is immune to both Crabhammer and Return, and resists X-Scissor. Frillish can burn Kingler with Will-o-Wisp, rendering it almost useless, or damage it with Night Shade, which breaks Kingler's Substitutes. It should be noted that Frillish is not a common sight in the current NU metagame. Most Grass-types have an easy time with Kingler; Vileplume and Tangela can easily take a hit and OHKO back with Giga Drain, regaining the health they may have lost, while Serperior and Leafeon can outspeed Kingler if it didn't get a boost and OHKO it with their STAB moves. Weezing and Misdreavus can burn Kingler if it hasn't set up, or 2HKO it with Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball, respectively. Physically defensive Seismitoad is immune to Crabhammer and can hit Kingler hard with its STAB Earth Power. Alomomola can take Kingler's attacks and poison it, but it is setup fodder for the Substitute + Swords Dance set. Kingler hates status of all kinds, especially paralysis and burn. They make it much easier to handle.</p>

    <p>While Kingler is hard to counter, checking it is a different story. In general, Pokemon faster than Kingler can just outspeed and KO Kingler with little prior damage due to its poor bulk. Also, most Choice Scarf users, especially those that use special attacks such as Rotom-S and Rotom-F, can check Kingler as well, despite the fact that they cannot directly switch in on an attack.</p>

    Show Hide
    [Overview]

    - Amazing Attack stat, one of the highest of the tier.
    - While Kingler isn't the fastest Pokemon in the tier, it is fast enough to outspeed the walls and some threats such as Ludicolo and Seismitoad.
    - However, Kingler has awful bulk in general, especially on the special side, and this makes it very hard for Kingler to set up; it has very few chances to switch in and it is easy to revenge kill.
    - Faces competion from Samurott, who has much better special bulk and isn't as predictable as Kingler, and Carracosta, who can set up in just one turn and wreak havoc.

    [SET]
    name: Substitute + Swords Dance
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Swords Dance
    move 3: Crabhammer
    move 4: Return / X-Scissor
    item: Salac Berry / Lum Berry
    ability: Hyper Cutter
    nature: Jolly
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]

    - This Kingler is a nice wallbreaker as it can threaten the foe's Pokemon out, get a boost and potentially sweep.
    - Substitute lets Kingler set up against walls such as Alomomola and Metang, and let it avoid status that could stop Kingler from sweeping.
    - Swords Dance gives Kingler a huge boost to its already great Attack stat, letting it heavily damage any Pokémon in the tier with its boosted moves.
    - Crabhammer is Kingler's STAB move, the only it can use as it doesn't learn Waterfall.
    - For the last slot Return and X-Scissor are both viable as both have nice coverage with Crabhammer. Return provides a strong and reliable move against most foes, while X-Scissor lets Kingler 2HKO Tangela and OHKO Musharna after Stealth Rock.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    - A Salac Berry gives Kingler a chance to sweep; Kingler can be hard to stop at +2 Attack and +1 Speed. It can activate it after using Substitute thrice.
    - On the other hand, a Lum Berry lets Kingler switch in on Pokemon like Alomomola without fearing status.
    - A Life Orb can also be used, as it gives it a lot of power. Coupled with Stealth Rock damage, it can at least 2HKO almost every Pokémon in the tier, and get some important OHKOs such as on standard Mandibuzz, Misdreavus, and Musharna. However, Substitute + Life Orb damage reduce Kingler's lifespan considerably.
    - Leftovers is also an option, as it lets Kingler set up more Substitutes, but this isn't really necessary.
    - Camerupt makes a good partner for Kingler as it can beat Grass- and Electric-types with its STAB moves, and can also set up Stealth Rock.
    - Pivot Musharna can take many moves from faster foes that threaten Kingler, spread Paralysis, and ease Kingler's set up via Baton Pass.
    - LumRest Exeggutor can beat most Grass-types in the tier, making it an ideal partner.
    - Removing Toxic Spikes is important for Kingler. Garbodor, Roselia and Scolipede can do this and set up hazards as well.

    [SET]
    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Crabhammer
    move 2: X-Scissor
    move 3: Double-Edge
    move 4: Toxic
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Hyper Cutter
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

    [SET COMMENTS]

    - A Choice Band gives Kingler immediate power, and lets Kingler do heavy damage to almost any Pokémon in the tier, and break many walls.
    - Crabhammer is Kingler's strongest STAB, and when boosted by Choice Band it at least 2HKOes anything that doesn't resist it.
    - X-Scissor allows Kingler to 2HKO Musharna and has good coverage with Crabhammer.
    - Double-Edge is a more powerful move that also has good coverage with Crabhammer, and is Kingler's most reliable move against Water- and Dragon-types.
    - Toxic heavily annoys commont switch-ins like Alomomola, Tangela or Mandibuzz, putting them on a timer.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    - Return can be used if Double-Edge recoil is annoying, as Kingler's low HP means Double-Edge takes a lot of its health.
    - Kingler also appreciates paralysis support from Pokemon like Musharna. Musharna can provide Kingler with a slow Baton Pass as well.
    - Pairing Kingler with Samurott or Ludicolo is also a good idea as Kingler can weaken their counters counters, letting the other finish off the game sweeping.
    - Dragon-types like Fraxure and Zweilous cover Kingler's weaknesses to Grass and Electric nicely. Fraxure can make use of Kingler's ability to damage walls to set up and sweep.
    - LumRest Exeggutor makes again a great partner, due to its ability to beat many Grass- and Water-types.
    - Roselia is also a very good partner for Kingler, being able to set up entry hazards, take Electric- and Grass- attacks aimed at Kingler, and deal with Alomomola and Tangela.

    [Other Options]

    - Using both Agility and Swords Dance make Kingler a very threatening sweeper... once it sets up, and that's the problem as it's very hard for Kingler to set both up. It it only sets Agility up it will lack power, and if it gets to use Swords Dance it will be easily outsped.
    - Agility + 3 Attacks.
    - A Choice Scarf can patch Kingler's Speed, but it is still outsped by many common Choice Scarf users, and it doesn't pack as much power as the other sets.
    - Superpower is an okay option to heavily damage Munchlax, Lickilicky, Miltank, and Klang, however, it doesn't offer much coverage and these threats are already hit hard by Crabhammer.
    - Knock Off is a decent support option to annoy an Alomomola, Tangela, or Frillish switch-in, and also kills Shedinja, but Toxic has, overall, more utility.
    - Normal Gem can be used in conjunction with Double-edge to get a really powerful move that OHKOes offensive Ludicolo, and also OHKOes Vileplume and has a great chance to OHKO physically defensive Seismitoad at +2.
    - Sheer Force is a good ability, but Kingler cannot exploit it (no Waterfall...), as its only boosted move would be Rock Slide, which is not worth and doesn't get any important KOs. Sheer Force-boosted Ice Beam 2HKOes Tangela, but otherwise it's a terrible option, as Kingler's Special Attack is really bad.
    - Hone Claws can be used over Swords Dance as it improves Crabhammer's accuracy, but Kingler really appreciates the power Swords Dance provides.

    [Checks and Counters]

    - The odd Frillish makes a great counter, as it is immune to both Crabhammer and Return and resists X-Scissor. It can burn Kingler with Will-o-Wisp, rendering it almost useless. Note that Frillish is almost never seen.
    - Almost every Special Attack will at least 2HKO Kingler, due to its horrible HP and Special Defense.
    - Most Grass-types have an easy time to beat Kingler; Vileplume and Tangela can easily take a hit and OHKO back with Giga Drain, regaining the health they may have lost, while Serperior and Leafeon can easily outspeed Kingler if it didn't get a boost and OHKO with their STAB.
    - Weezing or Misdreavus can burn it if it hasn't set up, or 2HKO it with Sludge Bomb and Shadow Ball, respectively.
    - Physically Defensive Seismitoad is immune to Crabhammer and can hit Kingler with its STAB Earth Power.
    - Alomomola can take Kingler's attacks and poison it, but it is set-up fodder for the SubSD set.
    - Kingler hates burn and paralysis.
    - In general, Pokemon faster than Kingler, and most Choice Scarf users that use special attacks, while they cannot directly switch in on a Kingler's attack, can check Kingler.
    Last edited: Mar 26, 2014
  2. WhiteDMist

    WhiteDMist PU! We don't stink though!
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    This has been sitting here for far too long. :/

    I haven't used Kingler, but I do want to know why you aren't just maxing out is Speed. Perhaps its because of a LO number, but I think outspeed Modest Scarf Zebstrika is worth taking a point more recoil overall. I would also mention the situations when you should use one boosting move or the other (when facing a defensive team or even just a wall, SD is usually best; while facing an offensive team or resisted physical attacker, Rock Polish tends to work best, etc.). Lum Berry to OO plz, it may lose out on some KOs but it lets Kingler set up on walls a bit more safely.
  3. Soulgazer

    Soulgazer
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    This may or may not be worth mentioning, but +4 Normal Gem Double-Edge against Alomomola:
    Normal Gem Return can also get the OHKO after SR:
    Also has 93% to OHKO 200/252+ Seismitoad at +2:
    Kingler can also OHKO defensive Vileplume at +2:
    OHKO Ludicolo after SR.
    I could post more calcs, but I believe those are the most important ones.

    TL: DR I think Normal Gem and Double-Edge deserve to be in Other Options.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
  4. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Added your suggestions, thanks!

    I added Normal Gem + Double-edge to Other Options, let's see if other QC members agree with it.
    Last edited: Nov 9, 2013
  5. Soulgazer

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    OK bad news: Agility and Double-Edge are illegal together. I would still mention it in OO though. Normal Gem Return also still get some of these OHKO btw.
    Last edited: Sep 20, 2013
  6. Dat Blast

    Dat Blast DOES THIS LOOK LIKE THE FACE OF MERCY TO YOU!?!?
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    Idk about the current set. There's just really no reason I'd ever use it over SD Samurott or hell, SmashCosta. Would a CB set be worth testing? The only thing Kingler has going for it over other Waters is its better power, so CB seems like it would capitalize on that. But I really don't like Double Dancer as the only set.
  7. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Yes, Choice Band is incredibly powerful, maybe it should be the first set, and the boosting sweeper the second? I don't know, I don't feel like removing the boosting set as Swords Dance and Agility are good moves in Kingler, sometimes it just needs to use one of them to break through the opposing team late-game with ease. What do other QC members think of this?
  8. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    The additional power on Swords Dance is actually really noticeable.

    252 Atk Life Orb Kingler (+Atk) Crabhammer vs 0 HP/0 Def Mew: 61.88% - 73.31% (2 hits to KO)
    252 Atk Life Orb Samurott (+Atk) Waterfall vs 0 HP/0 Def Mew: 45.75% - 54.25% (2-3 hits to KO)

    I know Life Orb SD Samurott isn't exactly common but this is mostly for reference. Doing nearly 1.5x damage is a pretty significant leap and that needs to be considered.
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2013
    Soulgazer likes this.
  9. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Go to One vs all calculator in the damage calculator, and you'll see how strong Kingler is after a boost, only Shedinja and Frillish avoid the 2HKO after Stealth Rock if Kingler has the appropiate move!

    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 216+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 30.03 - 35.14%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler Return vs. 252 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Shelgon: 46.4 - 54.49%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler Return vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Seadra: 50.63 - 59.55%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler Return vs. 104 HP / 252+ Def Alomomola: 53.11 - 62.57%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler Return vs. 248 HP / 172+ Def Eviolite Wartortle: 59.5 - 70.09%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Metang: 62.65 - 73.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Relicanth: 62.62 - 73.76%
    +2 252+ Atk Life Orb Kingler Crabhammer vs. 252 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Vigoroth: 63.46 - 75.27%

    Those are examples of the phisically bulkiest Pokémon in NU.

    It's true, though, that Samurott is more reliable than Kingler, having much better overall bulk and access to Megahorn, which hits harder than Kingler's X-Scissor.
  10. Soulgazer

    Soulgazer
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    Kingler has a niche as a SD Water-type over Samurott: outspeeding low base 70's such as Seismitoad, Ludicolo and other Samurott (also Victreebel and more). It does lack the STAB Aqua Jet, but base 125 Attack is quite good to punch holes in your opponent's team, doing more noticeable damage than Samurott overall.

    Also, remove the mention of Double-Edge in AC: Illegal with Agility :(
  11. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Yeah, you mentioned it was illegal some time before, and it's there:

    I left it in AC because someone may use Kingler just as a Swords Dance user without Agility.
  12. Soulgazer

    Soulgazer
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    The problem is that the set is around Agility + Swords Dance: Can an illegal move with Agility be in AC when the main point of this set is to Agility or Swords Dance to win? Double-Edge is and should be only OO: it let you get some KO you wouldn't with Return, but you can't run Agility to be able to outspeed faster Pokemon (which can be really important in certain scenario, since it lacks Aqua Jet).
  13. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    subsd is easily my favorite set. sets up on alomomola, metang; you don't outrun stuff but you have the capability to set up a sub on numerous defensive pkmns and/or scare them out, and then really mess up defensive teams. i'm thinking you can invest in bulk a bit if you want if there is anything worthwhile to avoid breaking your sub (the current spread nearly keeps metang from ever breaking your subs) but otherwise keep max/max. sub sd crab coverage. item depends - i've tested salac and its okay, other options are leftovers, normal gem and maybe another item or two i haven't thought about.

    agility is sort of impossible to set up with, i think, though by no means should you take this as me saying you should remove the set - it's just not as good. kingler will have the most success with subsd.

    cb is probably also worth having a set for.
  14. tennisace

    tennisace
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    i don't really like the idea of a physical water type that has like no coverage and no way to break alomomola. like at least subsd can set up on it/tangela kinda. it probably isnt bad per se but i just dont think its all that effective.

    idk my only experience with kingler was when i battled zeb earlier and it didn't do all that much.
  15. Zebraiken

    Zebraiken is it true what they say, that words are weapons?
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    it can't really set up on tangela, since tangela can just switch in and spam giga drain unless we wanna go liechi, which does a decent chunk (+3 252+ Atk Kingler X-Scissor vs. 248 HP / 252+ Def Eviolite Tangela: 210-248 (63.06 - 74.47%) -- guaranteed 2HKO). +2 LO does a similar amount of dmg (65.46 - 77.17%). even then, tangela always wins barring crit or rindo berry.

    kingler is definitely not great as a whole but it's pretty cool because it sits in a decent speed tier (outrunning ludicolo is good) and can set up on what most people would usually switch into it. also idt it has no coverage; it's just that its coverage isn't as strong as samurott's which makes it look less good when you try to run a similar set. IMO the sets shouuld go like this:

    1. subsd
    2. cb (crab / coverage / coverage / toxic or knock off). you could even go both toxic and knock off if you really wanted, since kingler's neutral coverage between water + bug or water + normal is very good, only resisted by like shedinja and frillish (and those two are really fcked by toxic and knock off anyway!!).
    3. sd + agility

    kingler is fast and strong enough to do cb well and i think it being able to set up on alomomola and other prominent physical walls is its best option. sd + agility's faults include being unable to set up easily and being unable to break through the best physical walls in the meta.
    Hollywood and Raseri like this.
  16. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Then Substitute + Swords Dance and Agility + Swords Dance should be different sets, or I should just do this?:

    [SET]
    name: Boosting sweeper
    move 1: Substitute / Agility
    move 2: Swords Dance
    move 3: Crabhammer
    move 4: Return / X-Scissor
    item: Life Orb
    ability: Hyper Cutter
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

    I'll add the Choice Band set.

    EDIT: CB added.
    Last edited: Oct 1, 2013
  17. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    Make them 2 different sets. They play really differently. poor kingler :( If only he had waterfall, then he could at least take advantage of Sheer Force
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  18. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Ok, I will do it.
  19. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Sorry for the Double post but i think this is ready for QC now, the 3 sets are there.
  20. Dat Blast

    Dat Blast DOES THIS LOOK LIKE THE FACE OF MERCY TO YOU!?!?
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    This still needs discussion imo. I really don't like Kingler getting three different sets because it's just so outclassed at everything it does. SubSD doesn't seem bad per se, but the problem I see is that you could do the same exact thing with Samurott who's bulkier and has Torrent. I get that Kingler is a lot stronger than Samurott, but what I don't get is why exactly that makes it a better SD user because of the trouble you have setting up in the first place. Since Kingler has more power I'd use that to just attack straightaway than set up. Even CB seems a bit outclassed by Basculin who has Adaptability, though I guess(?) you have more power on your coverage moves and can take physical priority a bit better.

    In the end, I'd rather this analysis just get one set, I just don't know what it should be.
  21. Soulgazer

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    [01:29] <&Treecko> sd + agility seems bad
    [01:29] <&Treecko> but sub sd and cb seem cool

    I honestly don't like the SD + Agility set; I think we tried too hard to find things Kingler has over other Water-types. If Kingler only sets up an Agility (which it probably will due to its mediocre bulk and the need to outspeed its opponents most of the time), it lacks power to KO some Pokemon without a attack boost, while if Kingler only uses Swords Dance... well while Kingler isn't the slowest Pokemon, it is not a fast Pokemon either, which leaves it to get revenge killed pretty easily since Kingler lacks a priority move.

    I might be wrong, though.
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  22. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Reomoved the Agility + SD set as I see many QCers don't like it. It's really hard to use.
    Last edited: Nov 2, 2013
  23. Hollywood

    Hollywood she's thin, she's blonde, she says "wow" a lot
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    been holding off on qcing this until I see more feedback from Raseri or Zebraiken (if he's feeling up to it!) because I've never used Kingler (because I think it's bad '-'), so if I could hear some from you guys when you get a chance, that'd be super awesome, and I'd appreciate it!

    in the meantime, please cut those calcs from the analysis. They don't really convince me of using Kingler, especially because most of those defensive Pokemon are pretty rare anyways.
  24. Alonsoforever

    Alonsoforever

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    Right, removed those calcs. Some of them were important such as Musharna or Mandibuzz, so I just mentioned them. Thanks Treecko.
  25. Soulgazer

    Soulgazer
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    [Overview]

    Remove:
    Just mention:
    • Kingler has awful bulk in general, especially on the special side, leaving it easily 2HKO by any special attacks.
    • While Kingler isn't the fastest Pokemon in the tier, it is fast enough to outspeed the walls and some threats such as Ludicolo and Seismitoad.
    [SET]
    • Change Life Orb to Salac Berry / Lum Berry.
    [SET COMMENTS]

    Change it to:
    • Substitute lets Kingler set up against walls such as Alomomola and Metang, and let it avoid status that could stop Kingler from sweeping.
    Also mention Swords Dance!

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    Remove:
    Add Salac Berry and Lum Berry mention. Also, Kingler can activate Salac Berry with three Substitute :).

    Also remove:
    Superpower doesn't do much for you, while Double-Edge will wear you down so quickly with that low base HP.

    Also:
    Now that Kingler doesn't use Life Orb anymore, change this (it no longer OHKO them with Stealth Rock up). Camerupt is OK I guess too.

    [SET]
    I would honestly change the set to:

    name: Choice Band
    move 1: Crabhammer
    move 2: X-Scissor
    move 3: Double-Edge
    move 4: Toxic
    item: Choice Band
    ability: Hyper Cutter
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spd

    Superpower adds nothing coverage wise, and Crabhammer 2HKO what you would use Superpower on anyway. As for Knock Off, well I honestly think Toxic is better overall as Kingler will be able to put Alomomola and Tangela on a timer.

    [SET COMMENTS]
    Remove:
    Move this to AC:
    Also mention Toxic and what it does.

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    Remove since its on the set:
    By the way:
    Braviary outspeeds Kingler and can OHKO with Brave Bird, while Choice Scarf will simply U-Turn as it can't KO you. Kingler only really outspeeds the SubBU set. Anyway, if you are going to mention entry hazards, you should mention that it can 2HKO Tangela with X-Scissor with Stealth Rock and two lair of Spikes, and can 2HKO Alomomola with Stealth Rock and three lair of Spikes if it switch on Kingler using Double-Edge.
    [Other Options]

    Put those two together:
    Remove these because they are really not worth it/or mentionned in the set already:

    [Checks and Counters]

    Make it clear that Frillish is rare to encounter though.

    Change this:
    Tangela can still take X-Scissor, Vileplume is hit harder by Return/Double-Edge, while Serperior can't take a +2 Return/Double-Edge either and outspeeds the Choice Band set anyway.

    Make it clear they are setup fodder to the SubSD set.

    Remove:
    Fix this (there's no Agility+SD set anymore):
    Alonsoforever Make these change and I'll check back later.
    Last edited: Nov 7, 2013

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