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Kirikizan (QC Approved 0/2)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by [Zangoose], Dec 1, 2010.

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  1. [Zangoose]

    [Zangoose]

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    Status: Finished the sets, I've found these to be the only really effective ones Kirikizan can run, and the anti-lead doesn't do too well with team preview. I've done some work on the Optional Changes, etc, but I'm not sure if its enough.
    [​IMG]
    http://www.serebii.net/pokedex-bw/625.shtml

    --------------------------​

    [Overview]​

    <p>Kirikizan was one of the many Pokemon introduced this Generation with a completely unique typing combination - Dark / Steel. This typing, although interesting, acts as a double-edged sword; whilst Kirikizan is resistant to 9 types, including common ones such as Dragon and Rock, and an immunity to two not-so-common types, it gives it a quadruple weakness to Fighting attacks, as well as a weakness to Fire and Ground. But don't underestimate this Pokemon when going up against it; with decent 65 / 100 / 70 defenses and an incredible 125 attack, Kirikizan can take a hit and more than dish it out. Its dual STABs are resisted only by Steel-types, and it can throw the opponent into discord through use of two of its best moves, Sucker Punch and Pursuit. Its support movepool is also quite good, with moves like Stealth Rock, Thunder Wave and Taunt supplying it with a nice utility. Kirikizan is not without its drawbacks, though. It will die to almost any decent Fighting-type attack thrown at it, and it has low speed to work with. It's offensive movepool, whilst not terrible, lacks versatility, and it can be quite predictable at times. But this doesn't necessarily detract from its potential as a sweeper. Throw in moves like Swords Dance and Rock Polish, and you can have one hell of a Pokemon on your hands, if played right.</p>​

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Sucker Punch
    move 3: Brick Break / Ankle Sweep
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 252 Atk / 4 Def​

    [SET COMMENTS]​

    <p>Kirikizan can act as an extremely powerful sweeper when combined with Swords Dance. Just one use of the move boosts its already high attack to 766. Combine that with one of the most powerful priority moves in the game, Sucker Punch, and you have got one hell of a Pokemon to deal with.</p>​

    <p>The strategy for this set is simple; bring Kirikizan in on something that it can force out, and proceed to Swords Dance. Then, you deal with the Pokemon with the appropriate move. Sucker Punch is the primary attacking move of the set. After a Swords Dance, it will OHKO nearly anything that doesn't resist it, if they are foolish enough to attack. Brick Break rounds out the coverage, and can deal massive damage to Steel-types that resist Sucker Punch. Ankle Sweep is also useful, and lowers the Speed of any switch-ins. Stone Edge is, as always, an obscenely powerful move after Swords Dance, and rounds out super-effective coverage.​

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]​

    <p>Life Orb provides Kirikizan with even more power, and with it and a Swords Dance up its belt it can get some much-needed OHKOs on walls that resist Sucker Punch. Balloon is also an option, and can stop this Pokemon from being destroyed by Doryuuzu, as a Brick Break followed by a Sucker Punch will OHKO. The EVs are designed to make this Pokemon more of a tank, and almost no neutral hit will OHKO at 100% without prior boosts. Competitive Spirit is the way to go with this set; if Kirikizan comes in on a stat-lowering move, it gains +2 Attack, and after a Swords Dance it can OHKO almost everything in the game.</p>​

    <p>Kirikizan greatly benefits from entry hazards. Stealth Rock is a must when using this Pokemon, as it can force switches easily and any prior damage is useful. Deoxys-S is a fantastic partner to Kirikizan, as it can sponge powerful Fighting-type moves headed its way, and set up entry hazards with ease. In terms of synergy, Burungeru is perhaps one of the best partners to Kirikizan; it is immune to Fighting-type attacks, and takes miniscule amounts of damage to any Fire-type attacks. Kirikizan can also sponge any Dark, Ghost and Grass-type moves aimed at Burungeru. Burungeru can also spread Burn around with Will-o-Wisp, greatly helping Kirikizan sweep. Magnezone is also a great partner to Kirikizan. Whilst they share weaknesses, Magnezone can trap any Steel-type Kirikizan has trouble with and eliminate them, with the help of a Balloon.</p>​

    [SET]
    name: Rock Polish
    move 1: Rock Polish
    move 2: Night Slash
    move 3: Brick Break
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Life Orb / Balloon
    nature: Jolly / Adamant
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe​

    [SET COMMENTS]​

    <p>With Rock Polish, Kirikizan's Speed is boosted to incredible heights, reaching 524 Speed after just one use of the move. Take note that, with this Speed, Kirikizan can outspeed max Speed Deoxys-S, as well as Scarfed Base 108s, such as Terakion. Whilst this variant does not have the power of the Swords Dance set, it can now eliminate many top threats in the current meta with relative ease.</p>​

    <p>Night Slash is the primary STAB, as it can OHKO most things that suffer a Dark weakness, with Life Orb and Stealth Rock damage. Brick Break, while not incredibly powerful, provides great coverage with Night Slash, only being resisted by Toxicroak and Heracross. It is your best bet against Steel-types that can come in and try to ruin your fun, and can deal decent damage to most Steels coupled with Kirikizan's 349 Atk and Life Orb. Stone Edge is Kirikizan's most powerful move in its arsenal before STAB, and can 2HKO the standard defensive Zapdos. With this set, if you can bring it in on a move that will lower one of your stats, you will get a +2 Attack boost from Competitive Spirit, making you nigh unstoppable.</p>​

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]​

    <p>The choice of item is subject to personal choice. Life Orb is needed now more than ever, as Kirikizan lacks power without it, and cannot secure vital OHKO-and-2HKOs. This, however, makes it incredibly weak to the omnipresent Fighting-type priority, and any Fighting move will OHKO. Balloon can let Kirikizan avoid Ground-type moves until it's hit, and can provide that much-needed turn for setup if you bring Kirikizan in on a Choiced Earthquake or some such. The nature and EVs are fairly straightforward. In order to make Kirikizan as fast and as powerful as possible, 252 on both ends of the spectrum are given. A Jolly nature is preferable, but you can opt to run Adamant if you find Kirikizan lacks power. This, however, allows it to be outsped by Scarfed Base 100s after a Rock Polish, as well as Scarf Genosect and max-Speed Deoxys-S.</p>​

    <p>More than ever, Kirikizan needs Stealth Rock present to aid in its sweep. Spikes is also useful, as it can cripple Breloom and Roobushin as they switch in. Gliscor is perhaps the best partner to this set, as it can set up the vital Rocks with ease, and also stop most Fighting-types cold. Magnezone can eliminate bulky Steel-types that aren't severely affected by Brick Break, but the duo share many common weaknesses. A good Spiker to use in tandem with Kirikizan is Skarmory; its immense physical bulk lets it shrug off most Fighting-type attacks aimed at Kirikizan, and it has a Ground immunity. Something interesting to note is that, whilst Kirikizan falls one point short of Speed-tieing with Scarf Latias (and other Scarfed Base 110s), Latias cannot OHKO you unless it runs Hidden Power Fire; an act which will drop its Speed by one point, thus allowing you the Speed tie.</p> ​

    [TEAM OPTIONS]​

    <p>Gliscor is perhaps the best teammate Kirikizan can have. It shrugs off any and every Fighting- and Ground-type move aimed at Kirikizan, and can easily destroy any Roobushin, Blaziken or Doryuuzu that come in to ruin Kirikizan's sweep. Burungeru is also a great teammate, as it can spread burn around the opposing team, weakening the many physical attacks that will be aimed at Kirikizan. Bulky Steel-types that aren't as affected by Fighting-type moves, such as Skarmory, will always give Kirikizan problems. Magnezone can easily remove these problems, but it shares many of the same weaknesses. Stealth Rock is needed for any Kirikizan sweep, especially on the Rock Polish set; Gliscor can set it up with ease.</p>​

    [OPTIONAL CHANGES]​

    <p>Kirikizan learns Iron Head, and is its most powerful STAB move; alas, its coverage along with Dark-type moves is fairly abysmal. Pursuit is also an option, but is fairly redundant on sweeping sets and will most of the time just be taking up space. Kirikizan can run a anti-lead set of sorts, with the moves Sucker Punch and Metal Burst, but its effectiveness is greatly reduced by Team Preview. If you fear Mach Punchers that much, Chople Berry can be used to remedy this. The thing is, without a Swords Dance, Kirikizan won't be able to OHKO and the Mach Punch user will merely live to Punch again. Kirikizan has a fairly nice support movepool; it can set up Stealth Rock, but this is better left done to a more defensive (or faster) Pokemon. Taunt is always a useful move, but with Kirikizan's low Speed it will often fail to Taunt before the opponent sets up.</p>​

    [COUNTERS]​

    <p>Any Pokemon with a STAB Mach Punch is probably Kirikizan's greatest counter; due to its quadruple Fighting-type weakness, it wall fall to any Mach Punch thrown at it. After a Swords Dance, there are few Pokemon that can wall Kirikizan; Skarmory is perhaps the best check, as it can Whirlwind Kirikizan out at +2. Note that it will be OHKOd by Brick Break at +4. If Kirikizan is not holding a Balloon, Doryuuzu will destroy both sets with its powerful Earthquake. There are a few more counters to the Rock Polish set. It can be walled extremely easily by Gliscor, Skarmory, and just about any physically defensive Pokemon that doesn't take super-effective damage from its moves. Since Kirikizan no longer carries Sucker Punch, it will be OHKOd by Focus Blast and Hydro Pump from Scarfed Gengar and Starmie, respectively.​
  2. [Zangoose]

    [Zangoose]

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    Posted one set up and did the overview. Would greatly appreciate it if someone could double-check my calcs?
  3. ungulateman

    ungulateman

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    We need a Rock Polish set as well. Kirikizan is too slow to sweep offensive teams.

    I've used Swords Dance / Rock Polish / Night Slash / Brick Break before. SD against defensive teams, RP against offensive ones. if you're lucky you can get a double boost up.

    Looks good so far.
  4. Paradox

    Paradox

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    I've actually found Kirikizan to be very effective in the current metagame. With Skymin's Seed Flare flying around everywhere, it can be pretty easy to pick up a Competitive Spirit boost (80% chance if you switch into Seed Flare), and with LO and +2, Sucker Punch can run through a lot of teams. And Kirizikan resists Seed Flare and Air Slash, making it a very solid Skymin switch-in. With +2 Attack, Sucker Punch will OHKO anything that isn't extremely physically defensive (It does 84.2% - 99.4% to 252/4 Gliscor) or resists Dark. Even with resistances, it hits very hard (49.6% - 58.3% to 120/0 Roobushin, a KO if it has been weakened enough - pretty good for what's probably the #1 switch-in). It can also switch into Lati@s and easily OHKO (though it takes 68.6% - 80.8% from Specs Latios). Anyways, very effective for sweeping through weakened teams with a Competitive Spirit boost or SD, or just picking off sweepers (and decent defences mean you can switch into the plethora of resistances Kiri has to do so).

    Concerning the analysis, I don't really think the 4 Def EVs make any difference. Putting them in speed gives you the jump on Hitmontop and its Technician Mach Punch, but you won't be OHKOing anyways without some prior damage; as well as uninvested Breloom, but most Breloom have speed investment. I would just bolster the weaker Special Defence, letting you switch into Skymin and Lati@s a little easier, though it won't make much of a difference.

    I would slash Pursuit after Iron Head instead of Brick Break, just because Dark/Steel coverage is pretty bad. I would also mention Gliscor as a partner, as it deals easily with the problematic Fighting types, and resists both Fighting and Ground. I also prefer Life Orb over Chople Berry, as Kirikizan really enjoys the power boost, and to be honest you should have a reliable switch-in to Roobushin and other Fighters anyways, as it's on every other team.

    Edit: Also you should at least mention Stone Edge, if not slash it after Iron Head. I just had a battle where I cleverly worked my way into taking an Intimidate from a RestalkGyarados, only to realize I had no way to hit it.
  5. sax king

    sax king

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    damn... I was going to do Kirikizan

    On the other hand, SD Sucker Punch is really good in this meta. Shandera? Gone. Deoxys? Gone. Swift Swim/Chlorophyl/Sand Throw sweepers? Dead. I like to use Focus Sash, but only if you can keep the hazards off the field. Focus Sash guarantees that you can Swords Dance, and then you sweep with priority.

    But under counters, it's important to note that Ditto is this pokemon's worst nightmare. If you get greedy with stat boosts, Choice Scarf Ditto will destroy your team. Roobushin is also hard. Although Sucker Punch hits it hard, Roobushin can hit you with Mach Punch.
  6. Paradox

    Paradox

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    Please remember that this isn't Dream World...

    I wouldn't run Focus Sash, one of Kirikizan's best assets is its decent bulk and fantastic resistances, meaning you can switch into a lot of attacks and take minimal damage. If you want to ensure a Swords Dance run Chople or take advantage of the resistances and the threat of Sucker Punch.
  7. Petsinwinter

    Petsinwinter

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    come to think of it... there are more than just steel-types that resist its STABs after factoring in dual-typing. Besides steel, fighting- and dark-types resist dark and fire-, water-, and electric-types resist steel. This means that Blaziken, Infernape, Enbuoh (Tepig's evolution), Poliwrath, Kerudio, Sharpedo, Crawdaunt, and Houndoom all resist Kirikizan's STABs, as well as most steel-types
  8. Ian15

    Ian15

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    at the guy above me. He does have Brick Break, which gives him perfect neutral coverage. Just because many pokes resist your dual STAB does not make it bad. Look at Tyranitar. It has just about all fighting types and several steel types that resist both STABs. Does not make it a bad poke.
  9. Petsinwinter

    Petsinwinter

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    Sorry, I didn't say kirikizan was a bad pokemon, though, I just said that there are more pokemon than just steel-types that resist it, like Zangoose said.
  10. ungulateman

    ungulateman

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    Dark/Fighting isn't perfect coverage, but the two Pokemon that resist it (Heracross and Toxicroak) are rare and not particularly good.

    /offtopic
  11. [Zangoose]

    [Zangoose]

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    Finished Rock Polish set; after lots (LOTS) of testing, I found it runs completely differently to the SD set. Also, just noticed Colonel M's Kirikizan thread - should I shut this one down?
  12. ungulateman

    ungulateman

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    Kirikizan is one Speed point short of tying with Scarf Latias after a RP. :/ Maybe mention that you tie if it runs HP [Fire], and it can't OHKO without it. Latias isn't really a counter, but it makes a decent check for it.
  13. [Zangoose]

    [Zangoose]

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    Posted up an anti-lead set. I've been testing it out, and I must say I am very impressed with the results. Almost done with the whole thing, anyone got any other tried-and-true sets I can post? I've found Scarf to not be effective, as it just doesn't have the power needed in this current meta.
  14. Bloo

    Bloo
    is a Tutoris a Tournament Directoris a member of the Site Staffis an official Team Rateris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis an Administratoris Smogon Frontier's Pike Queenis a Past WCoP Winnerdefeated the Smogon Frontier
    Head TD

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    As always, Setsuna and I discussed suggestions to make for your thread. You'll find them all below:

    First off, you need to add a Team Options, Counters, and a Optional Changes section to your OP. All analyses must have these sections in order to be complete. With that said, let's move on. IMO, the Swords Dance set should look like the following (along with the format changes I made: "move1" should be "move 1", etc.)

    [SET]
    name: Swords Dance
    move 1: Swords Dance
    move 2: Sucker Punch
    move 3: Brick Break / Ankle Sweep
    move 4: Stone Edge
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Adamant
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Atk

    Here's what we did:

    • Listed Sucker Punch as the main move option: Sucker Punch is Kirikizan's main selling point and most effective move since it compensates for his low Speed stat. As such, it should be listed first since it's his most important move.
    • Removed Iron Head as main option: Iron Head has poor coverage and with Kirikizan's abysmal Speed stat, we don't see him making much use of it. Stone Edge, on the other hand, enables this guy to have a Fighting chance against various Flying-types, such as Gyarados. You can also hit Zapdos and the like on the switch-in for super effective damage.
    • Removed Pursuit as an option: Pursuit should never be an option on a Swords Dance sets for reasons that should be obvious. In lieu of Pursuit, we suggest adding Ankle Sweep. It has the handy effect of lowering your opponent's Speed by one stage, and considering that Kirikizan's is slow, it could prove useful in many situations.
    • Made the 4 Defense EVs into Special Defense: The extra 4 Defense EVs don't do much. I'd say you're better off with 4 Special Defense EVs for the reasons mentioned by Paradox. It doesn't make much of a difference, though.
    • Made Life Orb the main item option: You had to many item options, which made the set look messy. Life Orb should be the main option because it gives this guy some more power behind his moves. Chople berry is useful for Mach Punch users like Roobushin, but, think of this: even if you do survive a Mach Punch from Roobushin, what are you going to do to it back? You won't damage it much I don't think, so the necessity of Chople Berry lessens. Give Balloon an Additional Comments mention, though. It's useful for incoming Ground-attacks.
    On the Rock Polish set, please make a mention of Balloon, and get rid of Chople Berry as an item option as well for the reasons stated above. Also, get rid of Pursuit on the Polish set. Pursuit is to weak of a move to be using on such a set. Pursuit isn't usually used on sets meant to sweep since it's weak, so I suggest removing it. Also, it'd be nice if you explained the difference between Jolly and Adamant on the Rock Polish set. What do I outpace with Jolly? What do I lose to with Adamant? Is the extra power from Adamant worth it? etc.

    About Chople Berry and Pursuit, I'd just shift down their mentions to Optional Changes. I don't find them useful enough to be mentioned as a options on Kirikizan's sets, and I believe that OC is where they belong. Lastly, I'm skeptical about your "Anti Lead" set. "Anti Leads" don't really exist nowadays because of Team Previews. Players can simply put whatever Pokemon they want in the first slot this time around, allowing them to put their best counter Kirikizan in the lead position. As for the set's effectiveness as a whole, I'm doubtful and am leaning toward a rejection. You're always free to provide logs if you'd like to prove its effectiveness, however. I'll approve this for you in the distant future once these changes are remedied.
  15. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
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    Confirming that these are the changes Bloo and I would like to see reflected in the OP.
  16. Fizz

    Fizz

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    If I'm not mistaken, Ankle Sweep is Fighting-type whereas Kirikizan is not. Thus, no STAB.
  17. Bloo

    Bloo
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    My bad, was thinking of Lucario when I was writing up my post. Thanks for the catch, Fizz, I fixed the post to reflect the change.
  18. [Zangoose]

    [Zangoose]

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    I'll make the changes. I completely forgot about team preview, I haven't played many matches with it on...
    I guess I'll remove it then. I've found Kirikizan to not have many other options, so I'll finish it off. I hadn't got around to adding the Team Options and Counters set, it's far from finished.
    Also, I've already mentioned the pros and cons of using Adamant over Jolly in the RP set, should I go into more detail?
    Thanks!
  19. [Zangoose]

    [Zangoose]

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    Think I'm just about finished, all I need now are more checks...
    Thanks.
  20. leingodf8

    leingodf8

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    I feel like psycho cut should get some mention somewhere (maybe in the optional changes section), if only for the fact that almost every fighting type in the game loves to switch in on him. It gets little coverage elsewhere, but it can dent the majority of his biggest counters at least. (and yes he can get sucker punch + psycho cut. Just breed with a Spinda).
  21. [Zangoose]

    [Zangoose]

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    Sounds interesting...fairly situational, I'll test it out.
  22. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    I'm wondering if Night Slash deserves a mention on the SD set for "reliable STAB". I mean Dark/Fighting is excellent coverage as it is.
  23. Setsuna

    Setsuna Prototype
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    Locked due to inactivity. The new thread is located here.
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