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Kitsunoh Analysis Workshop

Discussion in 'Create-A-Pokémon Project' started by Beej, Apr 11, 2009.

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  1. Beej

    Beej
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    Update: Everything's done.

    Thanks go out to Magmortified, Plus and UmbreonDan for helping with the Scarf set, counters section and team options, respectively. Also thanks to Katherine and tennisace for checking grammar.

    [SET]
    name: Life Orb Attacker
    move 1: ShadowStrike
    move 2: Ice Punch
    move 3: U-turn
    move 4: Superpower / Earthquake
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Adamant / Jolly
    ability: Limber
    evs: 4 HP / 252 Atk / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Kitsunoh is a natural candidate for a Life Orb set, considering it has a high Attack stat, a good Speed stat, and a decent physical movepool. ShadowStrike is quite potent on this set, as it has a 50% chance to drop the opponent’s Defense, making it difficult for even the bulkiest Pokemon to switch in without fear of being 2HKOed. Ice Punch is very useful, as it allows you to OHKO Salamence and 2HKO Bold Zapdos 82% of the time with a Jolly nature. U-turn is one of Kitsunoh’s most valuable moves, allowing you to scout for its common switch-ins and deal free damage to them as you switch to a counter.</p>

    <p>The choice between Superpower and Earthquake on this set depends a lot upon the choice between using either Adamant or Jolly for its nature. Adamant is the main option, as it allows for maximum damage output and will also net you an OHKO on all but the most physically bulky Blissey with Superpower,
    and even then there is a 46.15% chance to OHKO with an Adamant nature and Stealth rock support. However, Jolly is still quite viable on Kitsunoh and will allow you to outrun positive base 100s and Infernape, who is defeated by Earthquake. Jolly also ties with Latias, but leaving Kitsunoh in isn’t a risk you will necessarily wish to take, as this set is not nearly as good at taking Surfs as other sets due to the Life Orb recoil.</p>

    <p>You could use this same set with a Choice Band instead of Life Orb to increase the damage output. However, in most cases the difference is negligible and the ability to switch between moves is very useful.</p>

    <p>This Kitsunoh set is more sweeper-oriented than the last set, and such, you will want to give the opponent as few opportunities to respond to your offensive assault as possible. As it's been said, Kitsunoh attracts many bulky Steel and Water-types that won't hesitate to use your switching turn to support their team, or worse, heal. As such, wall-breakers make very good teammates when used in tandem with U-turn. Mixed Salamenceand mixed Dragonite come in easily on many of these bulky support Pokemon and threaten to OHKO or 2HKO all of them with Draco Meteor, Fire Blast and Outrage. Mixed Infernape works similarly, though it is more difficult to switch in and may have trouble with some Water-types. Defense drops from ShadowStrike really help here, as they allow Infernape to get some extra 2HKOs with Close Combat. Mixed Electivire can 2HKO bulky Water-types more reliably than Salamence or Dragonite and has Flamethrower for Steel-types. Swampert can be dispatched with a surprise Hidden Power Grass.</p>

    [Team Options]

    <p>As previously mentioned, Kitsunoh is quite good at wearing down its counters. It is therefore worth using other Pokemon on your team that have similar counters. This mainly consists of offensive Steel-types. Arghonaut and Swampert will be able to stand up to Kitsunoh if they are at full health, but adding Metagross and Scizor to the equation puts constant pressure upon these Pokemon. Magnezone can be used on your team to take out Skarmory, Forretress, and Bronzong. If you use Magnezone for this purpose, Hidden Power Grass could be very useful for surprising Swampert. Heatran, while unable to trap Steel-types with Magnet Pull, can function similarly to Magnezone. Both of these Pokemon are capable of Exploding on potential counters for Kitsunoh.</p>

    <p>Defensively, Kitsunoh needs to watch for faster users of Fire and Ground-type moves. This means Gyarados and Salamence are both good choices to pair with Kitsunoh, especially because many Pokemon using those moves will need a Choice Scarf in order to outspeed Kitsunoh, and be locked into the move. Gyarados and Salamence, meanwhile, can set up with Dragon Dance. Surprisingly, Flygon can also be used for this purpose with U-turn, serving as a sort of "double scout" strategy. Flygon's immunity to Electric moves is also of some assistance here, though unfortunately Flygon doesn't resist Water (unlike Salamence and Gyarados). Latias and Stratagem with Levitate resist Fire-type moves, are immune to Ground-type moves, and can set up Calm Mind. Arghonaut, Swampert, and Hippowdon are bulkier Pokemon that can also switch into Fire and Ground-type moves and are worth noting because they can easily switch (or U-turn) into Tyranitar if you don't have Superpower. Due to a lack of recovery and Kitsunoh's frequent switching, Wish support can improve Kitsunoh's performance considerably, especially the Life Orb variant. Consider using Blissey or Vaporeon for this purpose.</p>

    <p>Due to Kitsunoh's habit of forcing switches, it is effective to use entry hazards alongside it. Stealth Rock in particular should be set up as early in the battle as possible to maximize the damage Kitsunoh can do, particularly to Pokemon like Zapdos and Gyarados who you may have trouble with otherwise. Spikes and Toxic Spikes are also very effective, as bulky Water-types are some of Kitsunoh's best counters and they are devastated by these hazards.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Rock Slide is a decent move to use on a pure attacking Kitsunoh, as it allows you to deal fair damage to Gyarados without losing coverage on Salamence and Zapdos. ThunderPunch OHKOs Gyarados and will hit bulky Waters pretty hard on the Life Orb set, although it has little merit otherwise. Meteor Mash is a 100 base power STAB move with a small chance to raise Kitsunoh's Attack, but the coverage it giv
    es is generally redundant on the main sets.</p>

    <p>Kitsunoh gets Taunt, which can be of some use on a lead set to stop slower set up leads. It also has access to Psycho Shift, which it can use somewhat effec
    tively in tandem with Trick and a Flame Orb. However, it is perfectly capable of running Will-O-Wisp, which is usually superior. Finally, Kitsunoh can use Knock Off on the Substitute set to punish its switch-ins as an alternative to Will-O-Wisp and Yawn. It is particularly useful in that Skarmory and Forretress, two great answers to most Kitsunoh, can have their Shed Shells removed, so that they can be trapped by Magnezone.</p>

    [EVs]

    <p>Kitsunoh generally gets the most use out of a simple 252 Attack and Speed EV spread, as most of its sets have little use for any Defense and its SpA is useless. However, an alternate EV spread of 252 HP, 16 Attack, 100 Speed, 140 SpD with a Careful nature can be useful on the Sub + Status set. Most defensive Latias are unable to break its Substitutes with Surf, while you easily 2HKO them with Shadow Strike even without Defense drops. Kitsunoh will also outrun Naive

    [Opinion]

    <p>While it may be a stretch to call Kitsunoh “the ultimate scout”, it is definitely adept at forcing switches with its great resists and wide array of powerful attacks. Even Pokemon that resist its common moves won’t like having their Defense dropped by ShadowStrike, which leaves them vulnerable to other powerful attackers. With 110 Speed, Kitsunoh outpaces much of the metagame and is more than capable of forcing them into submission. Furthermore, it is not a glass cannon like many of its fast brethren like Gengar and Azelf, and is very capable of taking a hit when it has to. Kitsunoh is an asset to any team that is looking for a fast, hard-hitting attacker that forces switches and reve Heatran and Adamant Lucario and hit them with Superpower for a 2HKO and OHKO, respectively.</p> als team members.</p>
  2. Plus

    Plus bus
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    Minor nitpick: Change Shadow Strike to ShadowStrike. Will read through later. Also, U-Turn is U-turn.
  3. Lostmyth

    Lostmyth

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    Sub + status seems like the only move set that actually lets kitsunoh be used the way it was meant to be, well at least to me.
  4. Magmortified

    Magmortified <b>CAP 8 Playtesting Expert</b>
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    I'm sort of thinking Trick should be the secondary option on Ice Punch for Choice Kit. EQ/Superpower are very useful for dealing with Pokemon that resist Shadow Strike. Going with ShadowStrike/Ice Punch/U-Turn/Trick would be pretty bad for coverage.

    Remove second 's' on Gyarados.
  5. Plus

    Plus bus
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    Ah, thanks for correcting me on that Addie.

    Also, you could slash EQ next to Superpower on the Sub Kit set. With EQ you are able to hit Metagross harder as well as scoring an OHKO on most Heatran.

    Furthermore, on your opinions section, add a period here.

    Kitsunoh outpaces much of the metagame and is more than capable of forcing them into submission. Furthermore,

    On the second paragraph of the counters section, fix "Similarly."
  6. Beej

    Beej
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    Made minor edits. Thanks for the suggestions, everybody.

    @ Plus, I think that Superpower is pretty superior to Earthquake in general, as you get the perfect Ghost/Fighting coverage, and I wouldn't want to lose coverage on Blissey in exchange for a more powerful hit on Metagross, who hates Will-O-Wisp anyway.
  7. Plus

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    I will agree that Superpower outclasses EQ for Kitsunoh, and I won't deny it. However, what exactly warrants EQ in other sets that make it significant to not include it in that Sub set? I see the same reasoning to include EQ in every other set as much as the Sub set.

    I see your point for metagross, but when we look at every set Kitsunoh has, your point still stays valid. Is there a reason to not include EQ in that set as opposed to the others? Does Will-O-Wisp's appearance in that set truly make EQ that less useful? If so, perhaps you should mention something as such in the description.
  8. Magmortified

    Magmortified <b>CAP 8 Playtesting Expert</b>
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    Considering the choices between the abilities, it might be helpful to make a comment somewhere saying something along the lines of, "Frisk can benefit you by allowing a glimpse of your opponent's strategy when it comes out, while Limber allows Kitsunoh to safely come in on otherwise-crippling Thunder Waves."

    I've been checking around a lot of the calcs, and I'm having a lot of difficulty finding any major differences in KO power when using Band over LO. Considering LO offers some freedom (i.e. Tar can't come in and take you out if you're locked in on Choice Shadow Strike) I'm not thinking Choice Band is so hot on Kitsunoh.

    On the other hand, Scarf Kitsunoh has some benefits to it over other Kitsunoh sets, mainly in its ability to revenge-kill. Because Scarf and Band play very much differently, I will submit my set comments on the idea that Scarf will separate itself from Band in the analysis...

    EDIT: Yeah I'm actually going to agree with Deck. EQ seems the better option - insofar as the Scarf set. Probably more debatable on LO and such.

  9. Deck Knight

    Deck Knight Well-shuffled and flush
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    [SET]
    name: Sash Breaker
    move 1: Fake Out
    move 2: U-turn
    move 3: ShadowStrike
    move 4: Earthquake / Superpower
    item: Leftovers / Shed Shell
    nature: Jolly
    ability: Frisk / Limber
    evs: 16 HP / 252 Atk / 240 Speed

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This lead Kitsunoh breaks opposing pokemon's Focus Sashes, taking out some of the more fragile leads before they can get their SR down. Later in the game it functions as a free hit device, weakening opposing pokemon with Fake Out. It is especially useful if you can keep sending it back in against a LO Sweeper.</p>

    On a general note, all the Kit sets I ever playtested had Earthquake. It's 100% KO on Infernape, Heatran, Magnezone, and other Kitsunoh made it a staple for me.
  10. samtheman

    samtheman

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    The Life Orb attacker has Leftovers as an item.
  11. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    Have you seen this thread yet? Are we going to do that for tha CAP Pokemon as well?

    I feel it would be particularly important to do so because the CAP Pokemon introduce a totally new metagame for many people.
  12. tennisace

    tennisace brock you like a hurricane
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    Yes, we are. Don't worry about that for now, after Kitsunoh is done I'll bump the threads one at a time. However Beej did say he would like some help with the teammates section here.
  13. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    Okay. If nobody else has started it, I'll do it.

    I'm also trying to figure out an Uber lead.

    Just something I noticed.
  14. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    This is my first time writing one of these. How does this look?
    Sorry for the double post.
  15. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    Kitsunoh is immune to Toxic Spikes and sandstorm, so you should remove that. Also, you say that Forretress and Hippowdon can be used as Wish supporters, but that can't happen. I'll try writing up one of these if I have the permission to.
  16. Lord Gloom

    Lord Gloom

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    You don't have an ability listed for the SubStatus set.
  17. Magmortified

    Magmortified <b>CAP 8 Playtesting Expert</b>
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    Actually I think Umbreon Dan meant that you should use Toxic Spikes and Sandstorm in conjunction with Kitsunoh, which isn't really that bad an idea.

    EDIT: Speaking of ability, I repeat that we should have something in there somewhere concerning the choice between the ability.

    Or something like that.
  18. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    Ok, well I decided to write a Team Options if thats ok and this is what I came up with:


    <p>Since Kitsunoh is meant to scout and force switches, it’s highly recommended to set up entry hazards so the opponent will take constant damage upon switching. Stealth Rock is almost mandatory on teams, so it’s best to set this up as soon as possible. Aerodactyl and Azelf are great options as they almost always get the job done. Most Pokemon also take a considerable amount of damage from Spikes, so Skarmory and Forretress are perfect examples of setting up multiple layers. Toxic Spikes is also worth mentioning to add more frustration for the opponent, which makes Roserade and Fidgit decent options. Having a Rapid Spinner on your team will be very beneficial if you come across this situation, as it allows more survivability for your whole team in general. Tentacruel, Fidgit, and Starmie are reliable Rapid Spinners and can support the team with various moves.</p>

    <p>Kitsunoh does a great job at wearing down the health of opposing Pokemon, and this allows sweepers to come in and pick off the weakened enemies and attempt a sweep. Stratagem is a great Pokemon to use with its amazing speed and wide movepool. It also resists Kitsunoh’s weaknesses of Fire and Ground, so this also allows Stratagem to start setting up with Calm Mind. Gyarados is also a great option, as it also resists both Kitsunoh’s weaknesses. Blissey can fend off Stratagem with ease and Celebi takes care of Gyarados. Although, using the Substitute + Calm Mind set on Stratagem will make Blissey think twice before switching in.</p>

    <p>Kitsunoh lacks the use of recovery moves, so it’s helpful to aid it with Wish because of its frequent switching. Blissey, Vaporeon, and Fidgit are great candidates for utilizing Wish, and Fidgit is also capable of setting up entry hazards such as Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock as mentioned earlier.</p>


    Any mistakes? o.O
  19. Umbreon Dan

    Umbreon Dan 〉λ=
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    I meant Toxic Spikes on the opponent's side, lol, like Mag said. Also, Sandstorm I mentioned because Kitsunoh is immune.

    The point of Forretress and Hippowdon are not as Wish users, they're for Spikes / Toxic Spikes support (Forry) and Stealth Rock / Sand Stream support (Hippo).

    Anyway, I've made a slight revision and moved those Pokemon to an earlier point in Team Options. Fidgit isn't a good wisher anyway, so I only mentioned Blissey and Vaporeon.


    Why does Kit need spin support? It's really not that vulnerable to hazards.

    How does this relate to Kitsunoh?

    Gengar doesn't resist Fire.

    Again, what has this gotto do with Kitsunoh?

    What happened to Latias, Salamence, Gyarados?

    It looks like you just took my Team Support and disorganized it. =\ Support first paragraph, offensive options second paragraph, defensive combinations third was how I laid mine out.

  20. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    The way you mentioned Forretress and Hippowdon in the sentence seemed as if they were using Wish. xD
  21. Umbreon Dan

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    Yeah, I'll admit that, but it's fixed now. ^_^
  22. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    Why does Kit need spin support? It's really not that vulnerable to hazards.

    I'm talking about the person facing this situation of multiple entry hazards.

    How does this relate to Kitsunoh?

    It's a good pair up as it resits fire and ground moves aimed at Kit. It also kills the injured pokemon that Kit harmed.

    Gengar doesn't resist Fire.

    I ment Gyarados. xD

    Again, what has this gotto do with Kitsunoh?

    I thought you had to talk about pokemon that counter Kitsunoh pairings.

    What happened to Latias, Salamence, Gyarados?

    I don't understand? This isn't an edit for yours.
  23. sbc

    sbc

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    No mention of Magnezone in counters when Choice is the most common set and is screwed when locked into ShadowStrike, Trick or Ice Punch against Magnezone?

    In counters, I think the comments about Scizor's Pursuit are misleading as Tyranitar has 403 Atk which is only 9 points higher than Scizor and both get quasi-STAB effectively Tyranitar's Pursuit is an attacking coming off an attack stat 13 points higher which is pretty small but the comments make it seem a massive difference.
  24. Fuzznip

    Fuzznip Hoo-hoo-hoo-hoo!
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    I fixed up the Team Options thing that I posted yesterday. I'm not exactly sure if we are supposed to tell which Pokemon are good against Kitsunoh and it's pairings, but I did it anyway.


    <p>Since Kitsunoh is meant to scout and force switches, it’s highly recommended to set up entry hazards so the opponent will take constant damage upon switching. Stealth Rock is almost mandatory on teams, so it’s best to set this up as soon as possible. Aerodactyl and Azelf are great options as they almost always get the job done. Most Pokemon also take a considerable amount of damage from Spikes, so Skarmory and Forretress are perfect examples of setting up multiple layers. Toxic Spikes is also worth mentioning to add more frustration for the opponent, which makes Roserade and Fidgit decent options.</p>

    <p>Having a Rapid Spinner on your team will be very beneficial if you come across this situation, as it allows more survivability for your whole team in general. Tentacruel, Fidgit, and Starmie are reliable Rapid Spinners and can support the team with various moves.</p>

    <p>Kitsunoh does a great job at wearing down the health of opposing Pokemon, and this allows sweepers to come in and pick off the weakened enemies and attempt a sweep. Stratagem is a great Pokemon to use with its amazing speed and wide movepool. It also resists Kitsunoh’s weaknesses of Fire and Ground, which makes Stratagem and Kitsunoh decent pairings. Gyarados is also a great option, as it also resists both Kitsunoh’s weaknesses.</p>

    <p>Blissey can fend off Stratagem with ease and Celebi takes great care of Gyarados if you are having trouble with these Pokemon. Not to mention that Gyarados does well against countering almost all of Kitsunoh's movesets.</p>

    <p>Kitsunoh lacks the use of recovery moves, so it’s helpful to aid it with Wish support because of its frequent switching. Blissey, Vaporeon, and Fidgit are great candidates for utilizing Wish, and Fidgit is also capable of setting up entry hazards such as Toxic Spikes and Stealth Rock as mentioned earlier.</p>


    This good?
  25. Beej

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    sbc - Mentioned Magnezone. About Pursuit, Scizor's Technician boost only applies when the foe isn't fleeing. In this case, we're talking about a fleeing Kitsunoh, where Tyranitar's Pursuit is 120 BP and Scizor's is 80.

    Fuzznip - I really think your team options paragraphs are unorganized, off-topic and sometimes even false. For example, as far as Pokemon go, Kitsunoh really doesn't need to worry about entry hazards as much as others, thanks to its immunity to TS and resistance to SR. You would require Wish and Rapid Spin support even less for Kitsunoh than MOST Pokemon in OU, and so I hardly think it's worth a mention. I think that Umbreon Dan's Team Options are more objective, and so I will probably work with what he wrote.
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