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Koum Kapi, a place of mysteries (peaked 5th, at 1551 points)

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by alexwolf, Apr 24, 2012.

  1. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Introduction


    Hi everyone! This is my second RMT; again with a Rain team (it just happens I am not using only rain). I have been using this team for around 2 months now and it has been really successful reaching the 5th place on the smogon OU ladder with 1551 points.

    My favorite battling style is balance/bulky offense, as is this team. I also try to have a way to deal with most popular cores and strategies in the meta, while not derailing from my own strategy of 'course. This team is all about chipping away at the opponent's team via SR, Toxic and Burn damage and walling the opposing team with the awesome defensive prowess that steels have in rain, while occasionally Dugtrio traps problematic pokes and Shaymin offers some offensive presence and some much needed resistances to the team. Then sometimes Scizor comes for a sweep, and some other times I just continue to stall 'till the game is over. Enough talk, it's time to present you my team (changes and additions will be in bold only, and telling only because i have some words in bold and underlined, which are not changes or additions):

    Koum Kapi,a place of mysteries!
    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]




    The team in details


    Politoed (F) @ [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 SpA
    Bold Nature
    - Scald
    - Encore
    - Hidden Power Electric
    - Rest

    Politoed is the rain summoner and an utility poke in general. His role is to make sure that he manages to outlast opposing weather inducers, so that rain prevails, as a lot of my pokes rely on rain to do their job. The ChestoRest set is chosen so that I have as much survivability possible to win weather wars, which most of the times I do. When facing an opposing weather team, I play very carefully with Toed, and only bring him in when necessary, and most of the times I immediately switch out afterwards. Against weatherless teams, he is usually the most expendable member and is often sacrificed to scout movesets and safely bring another team member.

    I run enough HP and Def to guaranteed survive a CB Outrage from Adamant Haxorus and Dragonite, and hit them with a Scald, letting me revenge kill them with Dugtrio later. This is very crucial against DragMag teams, which usually lead with CB dragons, as i can’t use my Skarmory. Then the rest evs are put in SpA to hit Gyarados as hard as possible and also to ohko Terrakion in rain after burn damage, if it gets burned.

    The moveset is fairly simple. Scald is a standard stab move that has the amazing ability to burn pokes that love to switch in against Toed, such as Rotom-W and Ferrothorn. Encore is an amazing move, which for some strange reason not many people are using... This move prevents Toed from becoming set-up fodder for pokes such as Toxicroak, CM Latios, Volcarona, CM Jirachi, CM Reuniclus and more. Rest is obvious for insta-heal, and in the last slot I use HP Electric for the sole reason to deal with DD Gyarados better, especially SubDD, which is by far the biggest threat to my team.



    Tentacruel (F) @ [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Scald
    - Rapid Spin
    - Toxic
    - Protect

    You all know Tentacruel and what he does... That’s why he is one of the most valuable pokes in my team. The poisonous jellyfish offers to my team some much needed rapid spin support, while also walling some stuff that no other poke in the team can, such as Volcarona, Scizor and Lucario. With Rain Dish and wonderful typing, Tentacruel is able to survive almost always through the entire game and make sure that my team doesn’t succumb to entry hazards. I run Toxic to beat Jellicent and Volcarona, which would be difficult to take down otherwise. Toxic is also my only way to kill last mon Bulky DDNite, so if I see one, I must make sure to keep Tenta healthy. Finally when i see Chansey/Blissey in the opposing team I usually use Toxic as they come in, and then bring my Dugtrio in, to 2hko them with the help of Toxic damage, or leave them with 5-10% life, unable to switch in again.

    The evs are very standard, giving to Tentacruel the best physical bulk possible and Protect is chosen in the last slot for the added survivability and Toxic stalling. 16 Spe evs with a Timid nature were given to outspeed and Toxic Adamant DD Gyara, before it subs, which is a big threat for my team.



    Shaymin (M) @ [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 192 HP / 248 SpA / 68 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Seed Flare
    - Air Slash
    - Hidden Power Fire
    - Rest

    Most people chose Celebi when looking for a sturdy grass type for their team, but Shaymin is my choice for a few reasons... Here are some advantages it has over his big OU brother (Celebi):

    • The ability to stop most Volt-turn chains, easily tanking even U-turn from EB Landorus for around 50% life with some HP investement, and ohkoing Scizor and Rotom-W with the appropriate move
    • A powerful STAB move, that can actually ohko things weak to it (Max SpA Modest Celebi cannot even 3hko Mixed Ttar with Giga Drain, while Shaymin usually 2hkoes after SR, or surely 2hkoes if the first hit lowers his SpD)
    • Is not weak to Pursuit, which means that he doesn't have to waste a slot for BP, if it wants to survive throughout the game
    • Has Air Slash, which handles many pokes that usually give trouble to rain teams. For example Air Slash has a 87,5% chance to unconditionally ohko BU Breloom. It also has 79.3% to 2hko offensive Celebi after SR, doing 43.85 - 52.04% to 4 HP Celebi. It also easily 3hkoes max HP variants, so this means that if you get a flinch (30% chance) then Celebi is dead as you outspeed. Of 'course to get these 2hkoes-3hkoes we are assuming that Celebi switches in against you and you hit with Air Slash on the switch. Finally Virizion loses 75.3 - 88.88% from Air Slash at +0, and 49.38 - 59.25% at +1, so Virizion cannot even dream of setting up on you (unlike Celebi which is huge set-up bait for Virizion)
    • Is not afraid of Gengar and Hydreigon as much as Celebi, and doesn't let either get a sub up. SubDisable Gengar's sub breaks by both Air Slash and Seed Flare in rain, and even from HP Fire outside of rain. Actually if Gengar comes in against you, more often than not you manage to beat it.
    As you can see Shaymin’s ability to handle Volt-turn teams and the ability to ohko some troublesome pokes such as BU Breloom, while also having respectable offensive presence unlike non-NP Celebi, which has four-moveslot syndrome anyway, are the things that caught my attention and gave to Shaymin a spot in my team. Shaymin is my main pivot for strong water and electric attacks as I want Tentacruel healthy to spin and check the threats it is supposed to and Politoed to keep the weather up.

    192 HP evs are used so that Shaymin can always survive 2 Ice Beams from Leftovers Starmie without SR, and to almost always survive 3 rain boosted Hydro Pump from Timid Rotom-W(only 1,37% chance to 3hko, without factoring HP’s accuracy). Enough speed to outspeed and ohko Scizor outside of Rain, or do around 50% in rain, and rest put into SpA with a Modest nature to hit as hard as possible.

    Seed Flare is a strong stab move that ohkoes Jellicent and Politoed after SR most of the time, always ohkoes Rotom-W, Starmie, Gastrodon, Terrakion outside of sand (it does 80.24 - 95.06% in sand) and 2hkoes Mixed Ttar after SR most of the times. HP Fire is chosen to reliably beat Volt-Turn teams, and since most of them use sand, all I have to do is let them keep their weather up and beat their Scizor with HP Fire. Outside of rain HP Fire also prevents Shaymin from being set-up bait for Forretress, Skarmory and Ferrothorn, while even in rain Scizor and Forretress are ohkoed by HP Fire if Seed Flare lowers their SpD as they come in. Air Slash is chosen to ohko BU Breloom, which would be a problem otherwise as my Skarmory is specially defensive, and after taking a Drain Punch and the recoil from BB, Skarmory would be easy prey against any other physical attacker. It also 2hkoes offensive Celebi, and 3hkoes defensive ones, while also maiming Virizion and Volcarona on the switch. Rest means that Shaymin is almost immortal and lives long enough to shield my team from annoying pricks such as Jolteon and Rotom-W.



    Dugtrio (M) @ [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 44 HP / 240 Atk / 224 Spe
    Jolly Nature
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge
    - Aerial Ace
    - Sucker Punch

    Dugtrio is an assassin! He comes unnoticed, kills something and then disappears. I chose CB, so that my Dugtrio could actually kill things, and I don’t care if he becomes set-up fodder later, as anything that can set-up on him is covered from the rest of the team (except Specs Tornadus and Gyarados). With CB, 252 HP Ttar loses a minimum of 80% life (80.19 - 95.04%), Tenta loses 92,3% life (92.3 - 108.79%) and has a 50% chance of getting ohkoed unconditionally, 4 HP Starmie loses 81.99 - 97.31% from Sucker Punch, which means that after SR and 1 round of LO recoil it is dead, and finally 252 HP Jirachi loses 86.63 - 102.47%, so after a bit of prior damage he is as good as dead. Dugtrio, except from doing obvious things, such as helping me win the weather war, also helps against some pokes that would be problematic otherwise, such as SubCM Jirachi, CB Terrakion,Tentacruel, Blissey, Chansey, Starmie and Volcarona.

    The Spe evs allow Dugtrio to outspeed ScarfTar, the HP evs allow Dugtrio to always survive a Crunch from mixed Ttar without SR and a Flash Cannon from Magnezone with SR, meaning I can come in without worries and trap them, and the rest are put to Atk for obvious reasons.

    As for the moves, EQ is standard, Stone Edge is to trap and kill Volcarona on a double switch, or if it kills something and it is unboosted, and also to revenge kill Outraging CBNites, Aerial Ace is used to trap and revenge kill Virizion and even Breloom if for some reason Shaymin goes down and lastly, Sucker Punch is mainly to do as much damage as possible to Starmie and to possibly ohko Alakazam with only attacking moves, and having priority never hurts anyway. Anything except EQ is filler anyway, since 90% of the times I just kill stuff with EQ.



    Skarmory (F) @ [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD
    Careful Nature
    - Brave Bird
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind

    While specially defensive Skarmory seems weird, and is almost never seen outside of Ubers, in my team he works wonders! In the rain he is capable of walling almost every single OU Dragon!!! Yeah you heard right! Skarmory is never 2hkoed from even Specs Latios’s DM, the strongest special dragon move in OU, while taking easily Fire Blasts from Salamence and non Specs Hydreigon. It can still take on the more popular dragon in OU, DD LumNite, as in the rain Fire Punch only 3hkoes at +1. Specially defensive Skarmory also checks/counters pokes such as SubDisable Gengar, CM Reuniclus and NP Celebi very good as they all fail to do more than 50% to Skarmory even at +2 in Celebi’s case, and at +1 in Reuniclus’s case. Another nice plus he has is that against Volt-turn teams, which almost always lead with Rotom-W, especially against Rain teams, Skarmory can tank one Volt-Turn losing around 55% of its life and set-up SR, to begin harassing the opponent’s team right from the start of the game, as most Volt-turn teams don’t carry a Rapid Spinner. Finally Skarmory is my only answer to Specs Tornadus, and a poor one, as if Hurricane confuses I am screwed, and Skarmory cannot do anything back to Tornadus except from WW it out. On a last note, SpDefensive Skarmory is also the only true counter to EB Abomasnow, which is getting more and more popular.

    The moveset and the ev spread are self explainable and are needed to do what Skarmory usually does: phase, set-up hazards and heal.



    Scizor (F) @ [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 40 Atk / 200 SpD / 20 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - U-turn
    - Bullet Punch
    - Swords Dance
    - Roost

    The last member of the team, and the poke that the whole team was supposed to be build around, is the king of OU himself! Sometimes Scizor is great and cleans for me, while other times it is simply a pivot that eases the burden of Skarmory against dragons and offers weak priority. I am using the specially defensive variant with enough speed to outspeed any CB Scizor and with U-turn instead of Bug Bite for a few reasons. First of all I couldn’t let my poor steel bird handle all the pressure from the special dragons of ou, especially Lati@s. This is because Latios occasionally carries Tbolt/Thunder, which just murders Skarmory, but Scizor can easily take a couple of those, and Skarmory cannot do anything to last mon CM Latias, while Scizor just sets up and ohkoes. Also Scizor is the go-to-man against most Reuniclus as Skarmory cannot come in many times, because he can’t heal in fear of a super effective FB, while Scizor can simply heal off the damage, boost, and ohko with U-turn. Against TR Reuniclus I simply spam Roost, taking 56% damage max from FB, and when TR is over, I either boost or U-turn to scout the switch-in. Against CM Reuniclus, I SD twice while Reuniclus cannot 2hko with a +1 FB and I ohko with U-turn. Scizor also is my team’s answer to last mon SubDDnite and to Scarf Terrakion if I don’t want Tenta to take a hit or he is too weakened or even dead.

    About the moveset... BP is standard for any Scizor and is invaluable priority against many foes such as Terrakion, Lati@s, Mamo, Alakazam and more else. U-turn is chosen firstly because, early game and if Scizor is at full health, I can bluff CB, and lure opposing Magnezone thinking I am choiced, only to be trapped by Dugtrio. Also with U-turn, Scizor becomes Dugtrio’s partner in crime, luring Heatran and Tentacruel for Dugtrio to OHKO. With U-tun, Scizor also becomes my SubCM Jirachi counter, as Scizor can come in as SubCM Jirachi subs, take the Thunder while losing around 25% health, U-turn to break the sub, and go to Dugtrio for the ohko with EQ. Finally U-turn is always a useful scouting move early game to have, and I have never been disappointed by it. The last 2 moves give to Scizor the power to sweep through teams after his checks/counters are gone/weakened, and the ability to survive ‘till late game to be able to sweep and check the stuff it is supposed to.


    Closing words and the most dangerous threats for the team


    While the team has an answer for almost anything, Specs Tornadus and SubDD Gyarados are the biggest problems of this team, especially Gyarados.

    Against Tornadus my only solution is to put up SR asap, and trap asap the Starmie that will most likely be with Tornadus, and then putting up SR again. Yeah it sucks i know. Politoed, Tentacruel and Scizor can all take a hit from full health if the need arises and thankfully Scizor's BP 2hkoes, after SR. Skarmory avoids the 2hko after SR, but if i get confused, which is a very likely concept things are going to be difficult.

    Now the fucker called SubDD Gyara, can set up on Tentacruel, on Scizor and on Dugtrio locked in anything but Stone Edge. If it gets a free turn, then my first reaction is to go to Politoed to either Encore him or to break his Sub with HP Electric. If i Encore him into Bounce or DD or Sub everything is nice, since Skarmory will be able phaze him out and make him take SR damage again. If i Encore him into Waterfall then i will most likely sac something to get Shaymin safely in and then i proceed to break the sub with Seed Flare as i take around 43% with a +1 rain boosted Waterfall, which means that from full health i avoid the 2hko, so if i don't get flinched and if the 2 Seed Flares connect, Gyarados will more likely be on low enough range to be koed by Scizors BP or Dugtrio's SP. If Politoed is dead, then i must bait a Bounce with Shaymin and then switch the turn that he uses Bounce to Skarmory phazing him out as he hits me. Anyway long story short, SubDD Gyara is almost insta win against my team. (One thing i could do is put enough Spe evs to Tentacruel to outspeed Adamant Gyarados and Toxic him before he Subs, effectively neutering him, as most SubDD Gyara run Adamant. I am not sure though because i would lose a lot of physical bulk, and i would be much more prone to threats such as Lucario, SD Scizor and Dugtrio.) ---> DONE

    I decided to keep the 16 Spe evs with a Timid nature on Tentacruel, which means that now i can outspeed Gyara and Toxic him before he subs, so now Gyara is a bit less of a threat, but a big one regardless.

    Also another huge threat that i forgot to mention is non choiced Zapdos, especially variants with HP Ice and Heat Wave, as they can 3hko Shaymin, while it fails to do anything back, and 2hkos Scizor in rain (or even ohko if fully offensive). I can't really do anything to him, except from trying to Toxic him with Tenta or burn him while he comes in with Scald, and then trying to stall out all it's Roost pps. A huge threat, but luckily it is rare...

    There are some other minor threats such as Sunny Day Ninetales, Ferrothorn, Starmie and Jolteon, but they can be taken care off with decent prediction, so i am not going to address them specifically.

    I have had a lot of fun with this team, and battled with some very good players such as Stone_Cold (from whom i lost, what you expected),Taylor and lacerta (Rips Lizards is too afraid to battle me btw) so i am very glad i made it! Also crashing Volt-turn teams with Shaymin is simply too satisfying and funny to do, because many players in the ladder really lack creativity and the ladder gets very predictable and boring. So Shaymin is god's divine wrath to them :D .

    I don't know if i will retire this team yet, as i want to see if i get any good advice that helps me conquer the ladder and make the team even better, but for the most part, i think that the team has reached her full or almost full potential (in my hands at least). So now it's your turn to do your duty and read, enjoy, rate, steal and hate away!!!

    Importable (open)
    Politoed (F) @ Chesto Berry
    Trait: Drizzle
    EVs: 252 HP / 164 Def / 92 SAtk
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Encore
    - Hidden Power [Electric]
    - Rest


    Scizor (M) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Technician
    EVs: 248 HP / 40 Atk / 200 SDef / 20 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Bullet Punch
    - U-turn
    - Roost
    - Swords Dance


    Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SDef
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Brave Bird
    - Stealth Rock
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind


    Tentacruel (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Rain Dish
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SDef
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Toxic
    - Rapid Spin
    - Protect


    Shaymin @ Leftovers
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 192 HP / 248 SAtk / 68 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Seed Flare
    - Air Slash
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Rest


    Dugtrio (M) @ Choice Band
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 44 HP / 240 Atk / 224 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge


    Also here are some logs that show how this team is played, and what is each poke's role and contribution to the team:

    Scizor sweep (open)
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-Geniessen-vs-koum-kapi--25--2012-at-21h29

    1-0 win with Scizor saving the day (open)
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-koum-kapi-vs-Ambient--26--2012-at-03h11

    Why CB Dugtrio is awesome (open)
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-koum-kapi-vs--HBK---07--2012-at-21h29-1

    Epic hax game that shows where Shaymin shines (open)
    http://pokemon.aesoft.org/replay-koum-kapi-vs-Van-Helsing--26--2012-at-17h04


    [​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG][​IMG]
  2. The QWAZ

    The QWAZ

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2012
    Messages:
    527
    Nice team, DD gyrados seems like a problem. I will give a proper rate tomorrow.
  3. Black Rain

    Black Rain

    Joined:
    Feb 1, 2012
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    Shaymin, Dugtrio, Skarmory, and Scizor don't have a description yet. Are you going to add them in soon? Looks solid at the moment, I'll /possibly/ rate if I have time later on. At the moment, Specs Tornadus looks very threatening to your team, though Dugtrio can attempt to out-speed and OHKO, but can't trap it.
  4. dice

    dice follow @smogmogu for hot content
    is a Contributor Alumnusis Smogon Frontier's Arcade Star

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    2,108
    Just posting to say I can't see your sets... or your ladder name for the peak. Fix it for a rate (:
  5. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    I don't know why, they are there. I even logged out, and i still could see them.
    Btw i wrote the team in Word and then copy-pasted it here, while removing any text formatting, so maybe this has something to do with it, i don't know...
  6. Choice Socks

    Choice Socks

    Joined:
    Jan 15, 2010
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    Nice looking team, will be able to rate properly when you add in the rest of the movesets
  7. Ewil

    Ewil

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    467
    Yep, i have this problem too. I can't see your last 4 mons' moveset (but i can see Nature, EVs, etc)

    Anyway, very nice and original team, i love this more defensive playstyle.

    GL !
  8. Motagua

    Motagua El Ciclón Azul

    Joined:
    Mar 14, 2009
    Messages:
    190
    Nice job creating an excellent Rain team with original pokemons like Shaymin, Sp.Def Skarmory and Dugtrio. Im going to echo what other people already said, please add the movesets of your pokemons. This will make rating more easier, because without that information, it is hard to know if you actually lack or have the necesary moves.

    By the way, if you made this in Word Office some of the text formatting disappears when you copy it on the thread or doesn´t shows up. I do not recommend starting a thread on Word for those reasons; you should only use it when you plan to write a description, introduction, conclusion or additional comments for the team. If you still need editing help, you can hit me up :).
  9. VN.

    VN. h a d r i a n +
    is a Team Rater Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    970
    Ah, so the elusive Koum Kapi reveals himself, never fought you but saw your name p high on the leaderboard before you tilted (n). This is actually a really innovative and cool example of a balanced rain team and I love the use of Chestorest Toed, which I've been meaning to try out, myself. Like everyone else I'm really hoping you can get your movesets in here so that I can give a proper rate, because I really want to.

    Alright here sir is your rate.

    I feel as if Scizor and Skarmory are a bit redundant, although I definitely see how useful they are to this team, checking all the threats you mentioned. Anyways, I feel like you could get a bit more out of this core by trying a Specially Defensive Jirachi over your Scizor and changing Skarmory to a Physically Defensive variant. Now I think this would benefit the team for a few reasons, the first obviously being Specs Tornadus. Specs Tornadus absolutely cannot touch Jirachi with Hurricane, which is Specs Tornadus's move of Choice for the most part; Focus Blast doesn't hurt Rachi too much either, and you can always switch to Tentacruel if it uses Focus Blast and use the oppurtunity to Scald/Spin away hazards/whatever. Aside from that, Jirachi also does the job of countering Latios, Hydreigon, Reuniclus and Alakazam, all of which were previously the responsibilities of Scizor/Skarmory, but the best part is that Jirachi can counter them all by itself. I'd also like to advocate for Specially Defensive Jirachi because it gives you some extra defense against LO+3 Attacks Starmie, and the opponent will often be forced to constantly make sound predictions with Shaymin on the field also. Since Jirachi can threaten LO+3 Attacks Starmie with Paralysis, your opponent will be compelled to attack it, but if they Hydro Pump, then Shaymin can simply come in and threaten them back out, so that you don't necessarily have to lose a Pokemon/make a risky prediction by luring it into Thunderbolt, before bringing Dugtrio in for the kill. It's somewhat small, but I could definitely see it being somewhat helpful. With Jirachi, you can also put Stealth Rock on its moveset so that you can free up the slot on Skarmory for Spikes, which is helpful in threatening stuff like CB Terrakion, although Protect does have its benefits, especially against stronger foes, and with Surf being so prevalent on Latios and Hydro Pump on Toed/Rotom-W/Starmie, I'd probably reccomend Protect since you're using rain, but feel free to test Stealth Rock out. Anyways, on to Physically Defensive Skarmory. Physically Defensive Skarmory is able to cover many of the other threats that you listed Scizor as taking care of Mamoswine and Scarf Terrakion, which do roughly 36-40% with even their strongest moves. Physically Defensive Skarmory is also able to 'counter' SubDD Dragonite to an extent, as even +6 SubDDNite can't 2HKO without the aid of crits, not to mention you can always phaze it into SR and then double switch in Dugtrio to force it back out when you think it will switch back in. Aside from that Physically Defensive Skarmory can just wall physical threats better for your team overall, such as Conkeldurr, which can dent SpD Skarm pretty badly with a +1 Drain Punch and is actually somewhat annoying for this team, especially since you'll probably have to rely on Tentacruel's Scald to defeat it, and you run the risk of activating Guts with that move. Physically Defensive Skarmory handles SubDD Gyara a lot better than SpDef Skarm as well, and can tank even Rain-boosted Waterfalls before phazing Gyara out.Finally, I think you could ramp up Tentacruel's EV Spread up a bit and change it to 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Speed, so that it outspeeds standard Gliscor and Jirachi.

    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 216 SDef / 40 Spd
    Careful Nature (+SDef, -SAtk)
    - Iron Head
    - Body Slam
    - Wish
    - Protect / Stealth Rock


    [​IMG]
    Skarmory (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Brave Bird
    - Spikes
    - Roost
    - Whirlwind


    EVs are to outspeed some Jellicent, other Skarm and some CB Tar, you can toy with them if you want, that's just what I run.

    Change Summary:

    Tentacruel:
    Current EVs-> 252 HP / 212 Def / 44 Spe
  10. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
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    Sry guys, i am such an idiot, it was my mistake, i just forgot to write their movesets... Feel free to rate finally!
  11. BTzz

    BTzz spams overhand rights
    is a Contributor Alumnus

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    Hi alexwolf, excellent team! With Dugtrio eliminating opposing weather inducers, and Skarm/Tentacruel taking physical attacks, I don't think you need such a bulky Politoed. I suggest giving Choice Scarf Politoed a try for its ability to revenge kill SubDD Gyarados with HP Electric (or with Perish Song if it has the sub up). Scarf Politoed can also revenge kill Tornadus. Politoed can't OHKO Tornadus, but it should be easy enough to get some prior damage on it with Skarmory or Scizor. Since Politoed can revenge kill sweepers, I think you could drop some bulk on Tentacruel for 84 Speed EVs so it can outspeed Adamant Gyarados and Toxic it before it gets up a sub like you said.

    Politoed | Drizzle | Choice Scarf
    Timid | 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 253 Spe
    Hydro Pump | Hidden Power Electric | Ice Beam | Perish Song


    Hope this helps!
  12. Bribery

    Bribery

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    Great team, especially because it has Shaymin. :D

    I agree with BTzz's suggestion of Scarf Politoed. It also makes a great late-game cleaner in addition to revenge killing.

    You can also minimize the opportunities that Gyarados has to setup by giving a bit more speed to Tentacruel and Shaymin.

    If you change Tentacruel's nature to Timid and use 252 HP / 240 Def / 16 Spe, it'll be able to outspeed Gyarados and Dragonite and Toxic them before they setup.

    Likewise, if you give Shaymin 184 HP / 216 SpA / 108 Spe, it'll outspeed Gyarados and nail it with a Seed Flare before it can Substitute. It'll hit hard enough to leave Gyarados too weak to Substitute if it has taken SR damage. (216 EVs in Special Attack reaches a bonus point).
  13. Cloud9.

    Cloud9.

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    Solid team, though you are weak to volt-turn; even with the help of your shaymin.

    I experienced this first hand as i 4-0'd you yesterday with my volt turn team,
    don't really have any suggested changes though, but Shaymin can only take so many u-turn's (With continual U-turning, won't have a chance to rest up)
  14. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Innovative team, alexwolf! Great use of CB Dugtrio and Shaymin!

    I really like most of the rates provided here. Karpman noticed how the role of your Scizor and Jirachi are similar, except Jirachi counters Tornadus much better! Except I would suggest a different set. Since this is a Rain team, Jirachi can abuse the powerful coverage move and the high paralysis rate of Thunder. With this move, Steel- and Water-types (with a few exceptions) that usually walls this set are hit super effectively. Thunder can be used to kill Gyarados when it descends from its Bounce. Another change would be U-turn over Protect. U-turn is a great scouting move, and lets Jirachi escape from Magnezone. It also help preserve the role of your Scizor in luring in mons for Dugtrio to kill.

    Jirachi (open)
    [​IMG]
    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Trait: Serene Grace
    EVs: 252 HP / 32 Def / 224 SpD
    Careful or Sassy Nature
    - Iron Head
    - Thunder
    - Wish
    - U-turn

    NOTE: The def EVs guarantees Jirachi's protection from dying to the second +1 Outrage from Haxorus after SR.

    With Jirachi going specially-defensive, I agree that Skarmory should be reverted back to physically defensive variant to better deal with dangerous physical threats that Tentacruel and Politoed alone cannot handle.

    There are a few options for Politoed. Ice Beam > Rest on Politoed would give you more answers to DragMag. There's little point in its ability to tank +1 Outrage if it can't hit back. Also Leftovers is usually better than ChestoRest imo, apart from the status healing, especially now that you have Jirachi that can heal Politoed. You may consider Refresh if status is a problem.

    People who suggested Scarf Politoed realized the lack of revenge-killing capabilities of this team outside of Scizor's weak Bullet Punch. What you can possibly try is Bulky Starmie. It can still check physical threats that Tentacruel checked, while having the bulk and Thunder to check Gyarados. It also has the Speed and Rain power to check Tornadus with Hydro Pump.

    Switching to Starmie does make you more prone to Volt-Turn, however, putting more weight on Shaymin to defeat the combo. It does provide your team with much needed Speed to check dangerous threats like Terrakion and Tornadus, however. It may only 3HKO Jellicent, but combine that with a chance of fp, and Starmie can potentially overwhelm Jellicent. By making this change, SubDD Gyarados would have much less opportunities to set up. You may possibly be able to drop weak HP Ele on Politoed for something more useful like Toxic or Focus Blast.

    Starmie (open)
    [​IMG]
    Starmie @ Leftovers / Mystic Water
    Trait: Natural Cure
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    - Hydro Pump
    - Thunder
    - Rapid Spin
    - Recover

    Gyarados's +1 Bounce vs Starmie: 78-92%
    Lucario's +2 ExtremeSpeed vs Starmie: 78-92%
    Starmie's Hydro Pump vs Tornadus: 77-91% (OHKO after SR)
    • w/ Mystic Water: 93-109% (56% OHKO w/o SR)
    Starmie's Hydro Pump vs Lucario: 91-108% (50% OHKO)
    Starmie's Hydro Pump vs Scizor: 67-79%
    • w/ Mystic Water: 81-95% (56% OHKO after SR)
    Starmie's Hydro Pump vs Gengar: 93-110% (62.5% OHKO)

    Congrats on your success with this team!
  15. MiKeKudoS

    MiKeKudoS

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    This team is badly OP , used it on PO for a while , played 4 matches , 6-0d 3 of them , won all 4 ...


    The encore - dugtrio combo works like crazy !
  16. -Tsunami-

    -Tsunami- ¡YA HA!
    is a Smogon Social Media Contributoris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winneris a SPL Winner
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    Hey there.

    To help fix your weakness to SubDD Gyarados, you could run 56 Speed EVs on Tentacruel, which will let it outrun Gyarados and Toxic it before it can do any real damage to you.

    I would also suggest running a Life Orb on Dugtrio with Stealth Rock over Aerial Ace. Life Orb will still give Dugtrio more power, and will stop it from being set-up fodder for Gyarados and others. Also, by running Stealth Rock on Dugtrio, you can utilize Skarmory to its full potential by running Spikes over Stealth Rock. This will greatly help you out, and can let you sweep with Scizor much more easily late-game.

    Solid team. Hope I helped, and good luck!
  17. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Thx a lot for the rates and the good words everyone! More specifically:

    @Karpman

    I definitely see the merits of your suggestions, which are quite good, but if i put Jirachi over Scizor the team's offensive presence will drastically drop, and i will also lose the amazing synergy that Scizor and Dugtrio have.

    More specifically, with Jirachi instead of Scizor, SubCM Jirachi sweeps me. Also lastmon SubDD Dnite sweeps me, as Dragon Claw has 24 pps, and eventually even Skarmory will get 2hkoed by a crit. Physically Defensive Latias with Refresh also has the potential to get past through Jirachi with not too much luck i think, since Iron Head is only a 4-5hko on Latias. Since i can't run U-turn (because Jirachi needs Protect or else he won't be able to handle water attacks from special attackers in rain), i am now trapped by both Dugtrio and Zone. Also Jirachi is simply set-up bait for Ferrothorn, which my team already detests, so having another poke he can switch-in for free is never good. As mentioned before U-turn from Scizor is an amazing way to lure pokes such as Tentacruel and Heatran, for Dugtrio to trap, especially Tentacruel, which think they can tank one EQ and ko back but are easily ohkoed after a U-turn and SR damage.
    Finally SD Scizor is a superb cleaner late game, sometimes, and gets me out of very tricky situations, and can easily sweep stall or balanced teams that rely on Skarmory and weak fire moves from things such as Celebi and Slowbro to deal with Scizor, if it is left as the last mon (btw Fire Blast from Slowbro does 48.83 - 58.13% in rain to Scizor). Lastly priority, even weak, is always nice to have, as if my Dugtrio is down(for example i trap their Ttar with Dugtrio, and my opponent traps my Dugtrio with Scizor), Terrakion could sweep me without Bullet Punch.

    @BTzz

    Even with Dugtrio, and this physical bulk, good players can always manage to wear down opposing weather inducers, so you never get enough bulk for weather inducers, especially with the bulky theme of my team. 2 choiced mons is never a good idea on a team, imo, and gives too much set-up opportunities, which most offensive teams, can easily capitalize on. Also Hippowdon is used quite a bit, high in the ladder, and in this case i need Toed to last as much as possible, because the weather war is going to be a HUGE one.
    But i will try out your suggestion, because it would help me a little with Gyara, while also giving me something else except Dugtrio to hit hard Tornadus with.

    @Bribery


    Yeah i am seriously considering putting enough Spe evs to Tenta to outspeed Adamant Gyara. Maybe i will make Shaymin outspeed Gyara, maybe not, i am not sure, since most Gyara players generally avoid setting up on Shaymin, because as you said, it deals a fuckton with Seed Flare, and normally outspeeds. At worst, Gyara will put up a sub, which i will break and the he will go for Bounce, Shaymin will take it(76.09 - 89.97%) and then OHKO back if SR was up when Gyara came in.

    @ Cloud

    Quite the opposite, facing Volt-turn teams, is this team's joy. After i put SR up, i can slowly wear down the whole Volt-turn chain, while Shaymin easily takes on every single Volt-turn member and Rests to full health whenever necessary. Maybe i played bad, or you overplayed me, i don't remember, but i assure you that Volt-turn has never been a problem.

    @Pocket

    As i said to Karpman, unfortunately if i put Jirachi, my team becomes weak to certain threats, such as lastmon SubDDnite and SubCM Jirachi, while the synergy of the team becomes worse (Dugtrio + Scizor is amazing). Even if i were to use Jirachi, i doubt that i could fit U-turn, because Jirachi cannot handle boosted special water attacks without Protect. As much as I would love to fit Thunder Jirachi in the team, to deal with the fucker named Gyarados, i can't.

    Even without Ice Beam, Scald is usually enough to put Haxorus and Dragonite into Dugtrio's ko range. If Dnite's Outrage lasts 3 turns then after Politoed dies, Dugtrio will ohko with Stone Edge, and Haxorus is trapped and ohkoed by EQ regardless. I have tried Ice Beam before in HP Electric's place, but i didn't use it much, since against DD nite, Encore is simply better, and generally in rain Skarmory handles every physical dragon, and most special dragons too, while Lati@s take pitiful damage from Ice Beam, so i prefer to hit them with Scald on the switch and fish for the burn chance. Celebi has Recover, so no point in hitting him with Ice Beam, Gliscor dies from Scald, Breloom is handled just fine by Shaymin, and Tornadus would almost never attempt to switch in on a Politoed, so Ice Beam was almost useless. The only case were Ice Beam was actually useful, was against DragMag, teams, but as i already said Scald + Dugtrio is usually enough to deal with them.
    Also i can't take out ChestoRest, because without Jirachi, which can't fit, Politoed would be left without any form of recovery, and would be easy to wear down.

    Finally about Starmie. After seeing the Bulky Starmie set that Princess Bri made, i instantly thought about putting him over Tenta to check better Tornadus and Gyarados, while also 3hkoing Jellicent. But after some more thought i realized that it wasn't a good idea for a few reasons. First of all without Tenta i instant lose against Volcarona. Also without Tenta, i don't have a counter to Scizor. CB Scizor simply 2hkoed specially defensive Skarmory, while i can't roost, and does huge damage to anything else. SD variants are even worse as they can sweep me late game, as they ohko Scizor, and bulky Starmie and Shaymin cant ohko in rain. Also if i didn't get the burn, Ttar and Scizor could potentially trap and kill me with either Pursuit or their stronger STAB moves. Finally without Tenta, Lucario can sweep this team if it gets a SD (against Politoed, Shaymin or Scizor), as Starmie can't ohko and can possibly be ohkoed after SR by a +2 ES, even with max HP. These are the most notable things that Tenta checks/counters, while Starmie not.

    @SIU

    Yeah after all these suggestions, i am definitely going to put enough Spe evs to outspeed Gyara, and see if the extra bulk is missed.

    I can't remove CB, because it is necessary to get the ohkoes i need, and to ko the things i need while taking a hit from them and not dying after from LO recoil (see Ttar and Zone). Dugtrio is too weak and can't afford any power loss.

    Also i don't really want Spikes since i don't have a spinblocker, so spending 2-3 turns to put SR ans Spikes is not worth it when the opponent can simply Rapid Spin them away.


    Again thank you all for the feedback and keep those rates coming people!
  18. bluemon

    bluemon

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    great team alexwolf.
    i tested this team and skarmory and shaymin didnt do anything... sooo... i replaced them and had more success. i suggest these two over skarmory and shaymin:

    jirachi@leftovers
    nature: sassy
    ev: 252Hp / 4def / 252 Sp.def
    -Thunder
    -iron head
    -wish
    -stealth rock.

    quite an unorthodox set, yes. but it worked wonders. speed isnt the most important as thunder paralyzes stuff. this set allows you to check gyarados. and counter tornadus.

    another is... BRELOOM.

    breloom@toxic orb
    nature:careful
    Ev: 252 hp / 252 Sp. def / 4 spd
    -spore
    -bulk up
    -seed bomb
    -drain punch

    this is a good check to gyarados and is a good substitute to shaymin. great synergy with dugtrio and can also kill those pesky steels.

    also while testing, tentacruel has been very mediocre.

    edit: sorry for the double post, my phone cant edit long posts.

    how about.. unaware quasire instead of breloom? that solves like all your problems.
  19. Emeral

    Emeral

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    Hi AlexWolf, congrats on your success with this team. I've already faced you on the ladder and that was pretty good.

    I don t really see what to change but I think Dugtrio@Focus Sash is a better choice than Choice band for various reasons:

    - you can switch on Heatran, Tyranitar or Jirachi safely and hit them with a powerfull Earthquake or Reversal.
    - Focus Sash is very usefull against Terrakion which is hudge threat for your team.
    - You could set Stealth Rocks with dugtrio and run spikes on skarmory to have a decent combinason of hentries hasards.
    - You can do better dammage against pokemon such as Rotom-W or Ferrothorn with Reversal

    [​IMG]
    Dugtrio (M) @ Focus Sash
    Trait: Arena Trap
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Earthquake
    - Reversal
    - Stealth Rock

    So I hope I helped you and congrats again on peaked #5 !

    bs in your log vs geniessen the man is using my team :O
  20. New World Order

    New World Order Licks Toads
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    Hi alexwolf, sorry about not being able to do a full rate. Not having played a single game of Pokemon for 3 weeks makes me pretty rusty. I do think you should swap Encore on Politoed for Perish Song. Your main reason for carrying Encore is to ensure Politoed isn't set up fodder. Well Perish Song does that as well, while also giving you a pseudo phazing move to get rid of a Pokemon if it manages to get a boost in before Politoed comes in. Aerial Ace honestly doesn't do much for Dugtrio. Sucker Punch and Aerial Ace are both much better options against Starmie and Alakazam, and you've already got two Pokemon carrying Flying type moves. Like ShakeItUp said, Stealth Rock and a Life Orb would open up a slot on Skarmory for Spikes. If Spikes isn't your thing, you could also give Taunt a try just to see how things go. Choice Band allows you to score some extra KOs, but Life Orb offers much more flexibility, and allows Dugtrio to actually make use of Sucker Punch effectively. If you're going to stick with the band though, at least use Shadow Claw instead of Aerial Ace to play mindgames with Gengar.
  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    @bluemon

    You must have used the team wrong then, as those 2 are maybe the most important members to the team, along with Tentacruel. Shaymin stops Volt-turn teams, is very troubling for sand teams to face, and gives me a check/counter for water and electric pokes such as Rotom-W, Jolteon, Starmie and Raikou. Skarmory counters most OU Dragons, NP Celebi in rain, SubDisable Gengar, Abomasnow, SubToxic Gliscor and AcroBat Gliscor, sets up SR, and provides to the team some much needed phazing abilities.

    As i have said to others, i would love to fit Thunder SpDefensive Jirachi on my team, to deal with the 3 most problematic threats on my team (Zapdos, Gyarados, Tornadus), but it just doesn't fit. I have 2 problmes with him. First of all i won't be able to have SR, since Protect is needed, to be able to take Surfs and Thunders in rain. Second, i won't be able to use U-turn, which i do in almost every Jirachi i run, since i hate to be Dugtrio bait. Finally without Skarmory, boosting Haxorus and Mence would be a nighmare to face without Skarmory.

    I also can't replace Shaymin with Breloom, because then Starmie would be able to 2hko all my team, opposing BU Breloom would be a problem, Jolteon would be a problem and Volt-turn teams would also be more problematic.

    Finally i don't know about Quagsire, but it could work if i also use S.Defensive Jirachi, to deal with Starmie, Rotom-W and Jolteon that Quagsire wouldn't be able to handle. But then i wouldn't have a status absorber, which could prove to be problematic. I don't know, but i will give some more thought to your suggestions!

    @Emeral

    -I can already switch into any Heatran, bar Specs, in rain
    -Terrakion is not a huge threat in my team. Scarf sets are walled by Tenta and revenge killed by Scizor, Band sets may kill 1 poke, but after this they would be trapped and eliminated from Dugtrio and same goes for any set-up Terrakion after they kill something.
    -I don't want to run more hazards, since i don't have a spin blocker. Also i don't want to have such a situational SR user as Dugtrio, because SR is my main way of dealing with many things, such as Volt-turn teams, and i need it to be on something durable, such as Skarmory.
    -Too situational and these pokes are already dealt with other mons in my team.

    Also CB is very important for reasons i already have stated, so i can't really change it.

    Good stuff, didn't know it!

    @NWO

    The problem with Perish Son is that it takes a whole 3 turns to activate, which means that in those 3 free turns, pokes such as Dnite and DD Gyara can really lay the hurt on me. Encore is already wonderful for preventing set-up so i will stick to it. Also if i play right, no last mon set-up sweeper can sweep me so that's another reason why i don't need Perish Song. However against BP teams, Perish Song is a great tool to have, and this the only reason for which i have considered running it. But anyway Politoed's moveset is very flexible and only Scald and Rest are mandatory.

    Aerial Ace on Dugtrio is very useful for revenge killing Virizion, which could be troubling otherwise, be it CM or SD. Also trapping and killing Breloom never hurts, because Shaymin can always get ch'd, and Skarmory is not really suited for taking Breloom anyway (i run SpD Skarmory don't forget). As i said to other the damage output of CB is really needed and so i can't afford to lose it.


    Again thx a lot for the rates guys!

    EDIT: I will be gone for holidays for the next week, so i am not going to be very active, so sry if it may take a while to answer to you.
  22. Shurtugal

    Shurtugal The Enterpriser.

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  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    @Shurtugal

    Politoed: HP Electric means that i can break Gyrados's Sub, and that i can also do some damage back (around 60% iirc). For example if i predict a Bounce against Shaymin and i go to Politoed immediately, then after i take the Bounce Gyarados loses 60% of it's health.

    Tentacruel: T-Spikes is nice and all, but my team doesn't really need it...

    Shaymin: You are right in saying that the Volt-Turn combination of Tornadus and Jolteon is a bit troubling, but SR helps a lot, as does Dugtrio, which can come in on a predicted VS and do ~57% with Sucker Punch to him, so after 4 SR rounds he will die.

    Dugtrio: CB is needed to kill the threats that i need him too, such as Starmie after SR and LO, SubCM Jirachi after i break his Sub with Scizor's U-turn, Haxorus after Scald from Politoed, etc. Also i want to preserve his life since with the given evs he can survive some attacks from the things it is supposed to trap and ohko back while still being alive for later(Ice Beam from Ttar, HP Ice from Zone and HP Ice from MixRachi)... Aerial Ace is needed mainly to revenge kill Virizion, since if i use Skarmory for this job he is going to be at low health after, and my team will be open to many physical sweepers, but it also helps against Breloom if something happens to Shaymin. Also HP Ice is not needed because i don't have any problems with Sub Glscor. The only reason that Princess Bri used HP Ice on her Dugtrio, was because her team had a weakness to SubToxic Gliscor, and he needed Dugtrio to be able to break his Sub. That's the only purpose of it, since it does pitiful damage to everything it hits, and Stone Edge kills fliers such as Dnite, Mence and Tornadus already...

    Skarmory: I have thought of putting Shed Shell on him, but usually it isn't needed, since my team can handle most DragMag teams even without Skarmory.

    Thx for the suggestions anyway!
  24. SunStallDerp

    SunStallDerp

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    Nice team dude :]

    One thing I really like about this team is the Scizor+Dugtrio combination, since they form a formidable offensive core, with Scizor being able to lure in threats for Dugtrio to dispose of them, especially when your opponent sees Lefties on it.

    Now on to the suggestions, I personally feel that switching out Rest on Politoed for something else and replacing its item would be beneficial for your team. According to my previous experiences (and the logs you added), Rest doesn't see much use and is basically a waste of a moveslot, but then again, it might just be a coincidence or it just didn't "click" for me.

    Still, great job creating a team full of underrated sets, and a luvdisc for you sir! :]
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Politoed's moveset and ev spread, in general, is very flexible and one can change it according to his needs. If one feels more power is needed then the Specs set is the way to go. If one prefers revenge killing use scarf, and finally use Rest + Chesto Berry or simply Lefties defensive for survivability, or even Lefties + 3 attacks for a blend of power and durability. Politoed is not really important outside of providing rain anyway, so use whatever suits you best.

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