Kyogre [QC: 2/3] *ready for 3rd check*

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Krauersaut

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Overview
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Kyogre has been the undisputed king of Ubers since its fateful release in ADV. A behemoth of the tier with a whopping 150 SpAtk and strong special bulk, it seemed destined to retain its spot for a long time in the future - however, with the advent of generation 6, the king’s “rain” has finally come to an end. New threats such as Xerneas, Yveltal and Primal Groudon have risen from the depths to usurp the once undisputed champion, and Kyogre has fallen from grace. However, this certainly doesn't mean that it is unviable - far from it. Its primal form boasts an ungodly 180 SpAtk, which when combined with its signature move Origin Pulse, which is on par with and a more reliable stab than Deoxys-A's Psycho Boost. True, Kyogre may have taken a hit, but its certainly not down yet - far from it.


Calm Mind + 3 Attacks
########
name: Calm Mind + 3 Attacks
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Origin Pulse
move 3: Thunder
move 4: Blizzard / Ice Beam
ability: Drizzle
item: Blue Orb
evs: 180 HP / 252 SpA / 76 Spe
nature: Modest

Moves
========

Calm Mind is the centrepiece of set - Primal Kyogre is able to 2HKO BLISSEY with at +1 with Origin Pulse, which is its standard, strong STAB damage. The BoltBeam combination rounds out its coverage, with Blizzard being run over Ice Beam due to a very noteworthy damage increase, as can be seen below.

+1 252+ SpA Kyogre Blizzard vs. +1 80 HP / 0 SpD Latias: 270-318 (84.1 - 99%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre Blizzard vs. +1 80 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 310-366 (96.5 - 114%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Blizzard vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Arceus-Grass: 382-450 (86.2 - 101.5%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Primal Groudon: 276-325 (68.3 - 80.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
+1 252+ SpA Primal Kyogre Blizzard vs. 252 HP / 252+ SpD Primal Groudon: 195-230 (48.2 - 56.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

VS

+1 252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. +1 80 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 220-260 (68.5 - 80.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. +1 80 HP / 0 SpD Latios: 254-300 (79.1 - 93.4%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 252+ SpA Kyogre Ice Beam vs. 248 HP / 144 SpD Arceus-Grass: 314-370 (70.8 - 83.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Ice Beam vs 252/0 PDon - 55.94% - 65.84%
Ice Beam vs 252/252+ PDon -39.36% - 46.53%


Set Details
========

180 HP EVs are to maximize its bulk potential, and 76 speed allows it to outpace non-invested base 99s (Yveltal, Xerneas, Genes that are running a bad set o.o). The Blue Orb, of course, allows Kyogre to revert to its Primal Forme - even though passive recovery is lost, it brings out the big guns and an even higher special bulk. Modest is chosen to enable Kyogre's ammunition to bring down sweepers and tanks alike. For those paranoid about being outsped, max speed is an option, although the loss in bulk is significant.
  • 76 Speed allows it to outpace non-invested base 99s
  • Blue Orb allows Kyogre to revert to its Primal Form, which although loses access to passive Leftovers recovery, gives it noticeably increased firepower and special bulk
  • A Modest nature is chosen to maximize its damage output
  • Max speed can be run for those paranoid about being too slow

Usage Tips
========

Kyogre can be brought in on many special attackers and stallers, including but not limited to Giratina-A (although beware of Specially Defensive inclined sets), Skarmory, Yveltal, Dialga and hell, even itself (so long as the opposing Kyogre is running a more defensively inclined set) and proceed to set up. Without a recovery move, though, Kyogre's timespan is already limited, and this is furthered by its vulnerability to Toxic spam.

Team Options
========

Kyogre ADORES a second chance to set up, so if you find yourself running Pokemon such as Shaymin-S and Latias, consider taking up a slot for Healing Wish. Kyogre values Pursuit and Voltturn support as well, to allow it to get in for free on things that it can viable begin to set up on and/or elminate the Lati@s, making Scizor a spectatcular partner. The biggest threat to Kyogre this Gen would be a position held by a combination of Primal Groudon and Latias (note: not Latios), so things that can deal with them, like Giratina-O, Arceus-Dark, Bronzong and Arceus-Ground are spectacular.

Defensive
########
name: Defensive
move 1: Rest
move 2: Sleep Talk
move 3: Scald
move 4: Ice Beam / Roar
ability: Drizzle
item: Blue Orb
evs: 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
nature: Bold

Moves
========

The Resttalk combo is ran for recovery for Kyogre, which is an absolute must on a set such as this. Scald's very useful 30% burn chance can be exchanged for that extra oomph from Origin Pulse, but often the more defensive and accurate move is better for a set like this.Ice Beam allows it to completely check MegaMence and get some decent damage on Lati@s. but Roar can also be run so it's not quite as specialized.

Set Details
========

Its bulk allows for a maximization of its tankiness, allowing it to check a wide variety of threats. Defense can be transferred to Special Defense to act as a check to mons like Xerneas, Gengar and Darkrai, which, while leaving it very prone to physical attackers, makes it a behemoth of a special tank.

Usage Tips
========

Try to maintain its full health, particularly if you see a MegaMence on the other team, in which case it needs to be at full health to survive +1 Double Edge. Bring it in on threats only after you know what set they are running, so you are able to avoid unnecessary damage that will give your opponent options to play around when your set is revealed. Try not to reveal the set until necessary - the surprise factor can make the difference

Team Options
========

As you may have noticed, all Kyogre sets generally appreciate Voltturn support - getting in without taking damage is fantastic for it If running POgre as your primary MegaMence check, Defog support is an absolute must - it needs to be kept in tip-top shape. Specially Defensive PDon and SD Lati@s are massive pricks in the side - ways to handle them such as Landorus-Therian, Arceus-Dark, Bronzong and Arceus-Ground are mandated.

Choice Scarf
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name: Choice Scarf
move 1: Water Spout
move 2: Origin Pulse / Surf
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Thunder
ability: Drizzle
item: Choice Scarf
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Modest / Timid

Moves
========

Water Spout is mandatory for maximum damage output, leaving heavy chunks in the vast majority of the meta-game. Surf is a secondary, more accurate source of STAB damage for a weakened Kyogre, albeit noticeably weaker than Origin Pulse, which should be run more often instead. Ice Beam and Thunder round out its coverage with the standard BoltBeam combo, although being locked into either one of them is very dangerous, especially with Primal Groudon and the Lati@s on most teams - tread carefully.

Set Details
========

The given EVs maximize speed and damage output. Modest is preferred over Timid due to damage output being prioritized, but Timid can be run for those pesky speed ties. Choice Scarf, a staple item on Kyogre since gen 4, accentuates some of Kyogre's most prominent strengths - massive damage output and ability to do it without allowing for much, if any, retaliation.

Usage Tips
========

Kyogre can be brought in effectively as a revenge killer. It particularly appreciates slow Voltturn support, and adores Pursuit to get rid of Latis. It's a potentially strong counter-lead to Landorus-T, baton pass chains and so on and so forth. It nukes without much team support required, and opens great opportunities for ideal double switches, due to the lack of true switch-ins to it. These double switches can generate massive amounts of momentum, particularly if the said switch-ins have a pivot move. Choice Scarf Kyogre can only viably be run on very offensively inclined teams - anything less then that takes away too much momentum and synergy from the team for it to be viable.

Team Options
========

Scizor is, to an extent, protected from fire moves by Kyogre, and can provide utility in U-Turn, Bullet Punch, Pursuit (bops Lati@s) and maybe even Defog. Landorus-Therian helps to deal with Primal Don and also provides U-Turn + SR. Primal Groudon, being the absolute foremost check to Kyogre-Primal, necessitates a solid answer, even if that requires more than one mon. Things like the Lati@s, In general, checks to Lati@s and PDon are necessary - mons such as Arceus-Dark, Lugia, Bronzong, Landorus-Therian and Giratina-O are fantastic. Genesect deserves a special mention for being able to double switch in on the Lati@s and generate potentially game-changing amounts of momentum. Rayquaza, while extraordinarily niche, can also be great - its under-appreciated (and, admittedly, less viable) set involves utilizing Air Lock to nail a 4x SE Surf on Primal Groudon. Yveltal can also help fulfill this role - its immunity to Precipice Blades and decent speed tier allows it to eliminate PDon, and Sucker Punch erases the Lati@s duo. The Physically Defensive spread with Sucker Punch only does this job even better. Some form of hazard support is also appreciated - too much residual damage means less Water Spouts being thrown every-which-way, and since it'll be switching in and out a lot, you'll be taking a lot more damage a lot quicker than you think.


Other Options
########

A bulky phazing set with Scald can be run with investment into SpD OR Def and HP. A RestTalk Calm Mind set is, while substantially weaker, viable, enabling it to check Darkrai variants that lack Thunder. A mixed attack POgre set allows it to damage the Lati@s duo better, and can lure in and break potential switch-ins (it does a decent chunk of damage to an uninvested PDon with Earthquake). Choice Specs limits your options and doesn't get Primordial Sea, so is largely inferior, but SpecsSpout is still the hardest hitting move in the Ubers meta. Thunder Wave is an option if you find yourself with a filler slot - it can work wonders due to its rarity, and is empowered by the Brazillian and Mexican gods. Hidden Power Ground, while EXTREMELY NICHE, can be used to 2HKO non Specially Defensive variants of Groudon. Toxic is an interesting option - it can really screw around with some of Kyogre's biggest checks. Lastly, Substitute can leave those who put Toxic on everything at a loss of options.

Checks & Counters
########

** Primal Groudon ** - Even without investment, this thing makes Kyogre's life a nightmare. If you're running Kyogre, a means by which to handle this is an absolute must.

** Lati@s ** - Latias does this job better, but a bit more of a bulky spread on Latios can also handle it. Soul Dew and fantastic typing allows the Latis to switch in on Kyogre (barring Kyogre that's already got Calm Mind up, as a Blizzard could smack it solidly across the face)

** Palkia ** - Even though it's less viable this generation, it still remains one of the absolute best Kyogre checks.

** Ferrothorn ** - If it runs full HP/SpD investment, it makes Kyogre's life a nightmare.

** Dialga ** - A shaky check at best, especially with the introduction of Primal Kyogre, but a check nonetheless.

** Zekrom ** - It isn't fond of ice type moves, but more often than not can easily come in and force a switch.

** Rayquaza ** - Whilst it can't handle Ice type moves, with a bit of SpD investment, it can switch in on Kyogre and threaten it with Dragon Ascent, then proceed to set up a SD or DD.

** MegaMence ** - To a lesser extent, accomplishes the same as the above.

** Itself ** - Don't underestimate 160 base SpDef. With maxed out investment into HP and SpD, at full health, it has a 97% chance of SURVIVING another Primal Kyogre's Thunder. The bulk is real.

** Revenge Killers ** - Kyogre is incredibly prone to other, faster Scarfers and priority, such as ExtremeSpeed from EKiller and Sucker Punch from Yveltal.
 
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Krauersaut

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as i'm thinking about it Fireburn, i would include things like PhysDef Calm Mind and Special Tank/Phazer under the other options section, right? i don't feel as though they are more viable than the two I currently have planned for the main slots, those being CM + 3 Attacks and the still viable Choice sets
 

Krauersaut

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You need to put everything in bullet point form until you get 2 QC checks :P
boltsandbombers this was brought up to me by another user, but as I pointed out to them, this isn't outlined anywhere in the guide to writing an analysis, nor the skeleton format. I'm under the presumption that with OR/AS, bullet form is optional, as nothing to the contrary has been outlined thus far.
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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boltsandbombers this was brought up to me by another user, but as I pointed out to them, this isn't outlined anywhere in the guide to writing an analysis, nor the skeleton format. I'm under the presumption that with OR/AS, bullet form is optional, as nothing to the contrary has been outlined thus far.
Quoting the analysis index .-.

"Quality Control - The skeleton is complete in bullet point form and now needs to seek approval by the QC Team. Make sure you update the thread title with the number of QC checks you currently have. ONLY WHEN YOU REACH TWO QC APPROVALS MAY YOU BEGIN WRITING THE ANALYSIS IN PARAGRAPH FORM, OTHERWISE THE ANALYSIS REMAINS IN BULLET POINTS. YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE THE THIRD QC CHECK UNTIL THE ANALYSIS IS WRITTEN."

pls
 

Blue Jay

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Pls go with bullet points.

Edit: I don't mind if you keep what you already have in paragraph form but please make all future skeletons (and the rest of this) in bullet form, it makes things a lot easier for QC.
 
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Krauersaut

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Quoting the analysis index .-.

"Quality Control - The skeleton is complete in bullet point form and now needs to seek approval by the QC Team. Make sure you update the thread title with the number of QC checks you currently have. ONLY WHEN YOU REACH TWO QC APPROVALS MAY YOU BEGIN WRITING THE ANALYSIS IN PARAGRAPH FORM, OTHERWISE THE ANALYSIS REMAINS IN BULLET POINTS. YOU WILL NOT RECEIVE THE THIRD QC CHECK UNTIL THE ANALYSIS IS WRITTEN."

pls
command f has failed me

Fireburn i'm a bit past the point where i possess the will to make everything bullet point again - do i have permission to continue as it is? i'm entirely unopposed to editing changes in in paragraph form, so if its purely for the convenience value i'd request to continue as it is

Blue Jay edit: can i leave whats already been written in paragraph form as it is? n-n
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
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command f has failed me

Fireburn i'm a bit past the point where i possess the will to make everything bullet point again - do i have permission to continue as it is? i'm entirely unopposed to editing changes in in paragraph form, so if its purely for the convenience value i'd request to continue as it is
Dude, just put them back to damn bullet points. Everybody has to do it, there is no reason why you get to put in paragraph form before 2 QC checks.
 

Krauersaut

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Dude, just put them back to damn bullet points. Everybody has to do it, there is no reason why you get to put in paragraph form before 2 QC checks.
you misunderstand me - i mean leave what has already been written as it is, and continue in bullet points

my apologies if i didn't outline that clearly enough
 

boltsandbombers

i'm sorry mr. man
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Social Media Contributor Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Top Contributor Alumnus
you misunderstand me - i mean leave what has already been written as it is, and continue in bullet points

my apologies if i didn't outline that clearly enough
I'm not QC, but I am very experienced with the C&C process and stuff like that just doesnt work. I totally understand you, I just strongly disagree with you.
 

Krauersaut

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Fine, if QC says its ok then go ahead. Just be sure to follow the rules, especially when they're in big black bold letters.
please don't feel as though i need your permission to continue when I already have the permission from the people actually qualified to give it... i feel as though the conversation should have ended with my above post thanking you for pointing out something i didn't notice

please refrain from responding to this so as not to clog up this thread more than it already has been
 
Since you stated that it is an (unviable) option, I'd move Hidden Power Grass on the Choice set to the other moves section without slashing it, or even to the other options section.
 
I dont think HP Grass should be mentioned, and definitely not as a slash - it hits too little targets for it to be useful and you even say its unviable in the writing, so why slash it? OO at best imo. Also in regards to the choice sets, cant regular Kyogre use Origin Pulse? Its not like Ray in that a move is required to change form but i've yet to reach that in-game stage to see for myself so correct me if im wrong. In terms of other options, stuff like the old twave ogre set or using Surf could fit there.
 
Nayrz Origin Pulse is a valid move on regular Kyogre. Krauersaut It is 100% better than Hydro Pump, with the same Base Power, PP, effect, and 5% higher accuracy, so I don't see why you should use Hydro Pump over this. Take out Hydro Pump, and slash in Origin Pulse instead.
 

Krauersaut

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boltsandbombers is right Krauersaut, you need to convert everything to bullet points first. You can always just save what you have written now for later when you do move into the Writing stage.
I thought I had permission from Blue J to continue on in bullet points, leaving what I have already written? :[
I dont think HP Grass should be mentioned, and definitely not as a slash - it hits too little targets for it to be useful and you even say its unviable in the writing, so why slash it? OO at best imo. Also in regards to the choice sets, cant regular Kyogre use Origin Pulse? Its not like Ray in that a move is required to change form but i've yet to reach that in-game stage to see for myself so correct me if im wrong. In terms of other options, stuff like the old twave ogre set or using Surf could fit there.
Will do.
Nayrz Origin Pulse is a valid move on regular Kyogre. Krauersaut It is 100% better than Hydro Pump, with the same Base Power, PP, effect, and 5% higher accuracy, so I don't see why you should use Hydro Pump over this. Take out Hydro Pump, and slash in Origin Pulse instead.
Entirely my bad, I forgot that Origin Pulse wasn't exclusive to Primal Kyogre. I'll add that in.
 
Also, this:
Choice
########
name: Choice Item
move 1: Water Spout
move 2: Origin Pulse / Surf
move 3: Ice Beam / Blizzard
move 4: Thunder
ability: Drizzle
item: Choice Scarf / Specs
evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
nature: Modest / Timid

Moves
========

  • Water Spout is mandatory for maximum damage output
  • Surf and/or Hydro Pump is a secondary source of STAB damage for a weakened Kyogre
  • Ice Beam and Thunder round out coverage with Boltbeam
  • Hidden Power Grass, as always, remains an (albeit unviable) option
 
seconding nayrz that hpgrass goes to oo. scald doesn't seem to have a place on the set too, since it's strictly a wallbreaker, which opulse does so much better

this needs more speed on the listed spread, enough for uninvested 99s at least
 

Krauersaut

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seconding nayrz that hpgrass goes to oo. scald doesn't seem to have a place on the set too, since it's strictly a wallbreaker, which opulse does so much better

this needs more speed on the listed spread, enough for uninvested 99s at least
for the average player reading this analysis, i feel like the optional speed spread I gave works. as well as that, it was a mere suggestion - players should feel free to manipulate those values as they see fit.

HP grass is going to OO was soon as i get back to working on this.
I am pretty sure you need to separate the specs and scarf set since they play differently.
i'd rather not purely for the purpose of their immense similarities - i can of course outline in the details and everything how they should be played differently
Also, this:
fixed
 
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