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Quality Control Kyogre (Revamp) (QC 2/3)

Discussion in 'BW Ubers Analyses' started by Spirit, May 17, 2013.

  1. Spirit

    Spirit
    is a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

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    King

    [Overview]

    <p>Aristocracy is often granted to those of the highest prestige; and here in Ubers, Kyogre's unrivaled influence and domineering presence bestows him with the highest stature of them all: the king. It is Kyogre's phenomenal attributes that allow him to utilize his spectacular Drizzle ability to the fullest; which is quite possibly the most metagame defining ability in existence. Due to this, Kyogre alone is responsible for making over a dozen Pokemon viable; which includes the variety of Swift Swim users&mdash;Kabutops, Kingdra, and Omastar&mdash;and a slew of miscellaneous Pokemon such as Gastrodon, Tentacruel, and Tornadus. Even without his ability, Kyogre is an estimable threat, as his versatility&mdash;both in his sets and even the EV spreads&mdash;reaches out to the end of the cosmos. This versatility is what allows Kyogre to take on nearly any role imaginable, which includes a wall, wallbreaker, boosting sweeper, revenge-killer, tank, and even a lure.</p>

    <p>Amidst the treasure cove of stellar characteristics, there is one flaw that Kyogre possess, and that is his mediocre Speed stat, which keeps him from launching the first strike against an array of speed demons&mdash;Shaymin-s, Darkrai, Mewtwo, and the like&mdash;and at worst, keeps him from consistently outspeeding opposing Base 90s. However, such a flaw is inconsequential at best, as Kyogre can simply invest in his bulk, making him quite difficult to KO from the get-go, or equip a Choice Scarf and function an excellent late-game sweeper. In terms of sheer influence, Kyogre is second to none. Once you face Kyogre, you'll learn very quickly as to why he's been the single most dominant threat throughout the generations.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Water Spout
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Thunder
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Modest
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This right here is one of the most powerful and feared sets in the entire game. The juxtaposition of Kyogre's Drizzle Ability&mdash;which amplifies that power of his Water-type STABs and gives Thunder perfect accuracy&mdash;and his titanic Base 150 Special Attack allows him to 2HKO every Uber viable Pokemon with the correct move, making him a destructive wallbreaker. In addition to Drizzle juicing up Kyogre's attacks, it also plays a key supportive role by turning would-be outclassed Pokemon such as Kingdra and Kabutops, into excellent late-game cleaners by activating their Swift Swim ability. The Drizzle support Kyogre provides can support its team in other ways by nullifying the Fire-type weakness of Grass- and Steel-types and making offensive powerhouses such as Ho-oh all the more manageable.</p>

    <p>As destructive as this set is, it is quite simple in its application. You can start off by sending Kyogre in as your lead if your team needs rain on the field immediately, but you're generally much better off saving this beast for mid-game where he's more likely to have entry hazard support and thus be more efficient at cracking open defensive cores. Water Spout is what allows Kyogre to do the wallbreaking, as Blissey, Chansey, and even Ferrothorn are 2HKOed on the switch with minimal entry hazard support. If Kyogre is hit by an attack or is weakened by residual damage, Surf and Hydro Pump are excellent alternatives. Surf is generally given the edge over Hydro Pump because of its reliability in contrast to Water Spout; however, Hydro Pump's Base Power is much closer to that of a full-powered Water Spout, so it is definitely a good option to consider if you aren't concerned with accuracy or possible PP stall issues affiliated with the move. Kyogre simply can't break walls with its Water-type STABs alone, which is why Thunder and Ice Beam are required. Thunder's perfect accuracy in Drizzle makes an excellent coverage attack that can easily 2HKO the likes of Arceus-Water and Palkia, both of which otherwise stomach a Water Spout or Ice Beam fairly well. Thunder also has a wonderful 30% paralysis rate, which can be quite useful in making sure that neither of the previously mentioned checks see the light of day. Something to keep in mind is that Thunder can give Ground-types a free switch-in, so it's simply unadvised to stay in and repeatedly use Thunder should your opponent have something like Groudon that can use Kyogre as setup bait. Lastly, Ice Beam ensures that there are no safe switch-ins to the set as a whole, as it gives Kyogre the capability to 2HKO Gastrodon, Latias, and Zekrom after Stealth Rock.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs for this set aren't set in stone per-say, due to the fact that they can be configured to whatever your team would like. A simple max Speed / Max Special attack spread with a Timid or Modest Nature for instance is certainly a viable alternative as it allows Kyogre to outspeed and KO minimum Speed Groundon with Ice Beam or Speed tie with Jolly Ho-Oh in the case of Timid.
    • can use blizzard to ohko latias after prior damage
    • evs can be configured in whatever way benefits your team most
    • this can involve max speed/special attack, the above, or an mixture of the two
    • Arceus-Ground and Groudon pair well with Kyogre by beating dialga and sponging electric-type attacks.
    • While an adversary in their own right, both dialga and Giratina are excellent partners as well to take on electric- and grass-type attacks aimed at Kyogre.
    • Rapid Spin support is helpful in order to keep Kyogre healthy and keep its water spout at full health. Defensive excadrill, tentacruel, and forretress all do an excellent job at providing rapid spin support. Forretress itself can even provide spikes support. Along with with tenacruel, Forretress can provide Toxic spikes support to break down opposing counters
    • Leads such as Deo-S and A can help bring up hazards and stop opposing entry hazard setters, which is always useful
    • Wish support from Jirachi and Chansey works well in keeping Kyogre healthy
    • Kingdra and other swift swim users benefit from Kyogre’s ability to summon rain. Kingdra can even use use its Dragon-type stabs to destroy Palkia and Giratina
    • Tailwind support from Tornadus can give Kyogre a much needed speed boost, discouraging revenge killers, Tornadus can even use its stab flying-type attacks to destroy arceus-grass
    • Ferrothorn is also an excellent partner as it cover’s Kyogre’s weaknesses and can set up spikes and stealth rock
    • Finally, arceus-fighting is a useful teammate because of its ability to destroy both dialga and ferrothorn
    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Water Spout
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Thunder
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Choice Scarf
    nature: Modest
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>One of Kyogre's few flaws is his Speed stat, but by equipping a Choice Scarf, he can easily remedy that and become an excellent late-game sweeper and early-game wallbreaker. Of all the Kyogre sets to lead with, this here is by far the most effective one. One of the main reasons is that it can outspeed most of the unboosted tier, unleash his Drizzle ability at the start of the match, and swiftly destroy slower threats with his STAB-boosted Water Spout. Keep in mind, however, that Kyogre's Speed is mediocre at best; even with a Choice Scarf, he fails at outspeeding Deoxys-S (the most common lead), so it is of the utmost importance that you derive a way to prevent that threat (among others) from setting up multiple layers of entry hazards against Kyogre. Making use of team preview can prove to be rewarding, as you can quickly scan the team and determine which Pokemon Kyogre cannot outspeed. Should the opponent have either a Deoxys-S or Deoxys-A&mdash;two Pokemon that outpace Kyogre&mdash;then it is a good idea to reserve him for the later part of the match and send in a Pokemon that can prevent either of the two previously mentioned threats from setting up.</p>

    <p>This set here is very straightforward. With the use of Water Spout, Kyogre can prove to be a menace to bulky offensive teams, as he can outspeed and 2HKO most if not all of the opposing team. Due to the nature of the game, it is best to use Water Spout at the start of the match, as most teams will attempt to setup entry hazards immediately to chip away at Kyogre's health and thus Water Spout's Base Power. Many teams also make it a priority to quickly attack Kyogre in order to weaken his Water Spout, in such a case, Surf becomes the stronger, more reliable attack once Kyogre is at around 63% of his maximum HP. In terms of coverage attacks, Thunder and Ice Beam are irreplaceable. Thunder is best used if you're up against an opposing team that utilizes Palkia. Such teams will generally rely on it to withstand Kyogre's STABs, but with a quick Thunder, Palkia will no longer be a reliable switch-in because of the fact that it will be too weak to withstand two of Kyogre's full-powered Water Spouts. Now with Ice Beam, Kyogre can severely dent the likes of Zekrom and Latios. In terms of taking out weakened threats such as Darkrai and Palkia, Ice Beam is the more "safer" coverage attack. In stark contrast to Thunder, Ice Beam discourages the likes of Groudon from setting up on Kyogre.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • can use a 168 HP / 136 SpA / 204 Spe to outspeed mewtwo and tank an attack from +2 omastar, this spread provides the best of both worlds in terms of durability and power
    • Works well with powerful wall breakers such as Rayquaza and lustrous orb Palkia, as Kyogre can clean up against a weakened team
    • Entry hazard support and rapid spin support work well. Rapid spin helps for two reaosns: one it helps keep Kyogre's water spout at full health and two, Kyogre tends to be setup bait to spikes users when locked into the wrong move. Excadrill and Forretress can provide both spin and hazard support, as well as having good synergy with kyogre
    • Tyranitar partners well with Scarf Kyogre, as can pursuit trap Lati@s and set up SR
    • beartic functions well with Kyogre by eliminating Dragon-types and softening up the opposing team for Kyogre to take out
    • Scizor can also pursuit trap the lati twin, but it’s less reliable at doing so, however Scizor can revenge kill Skymin after SR, a major pain for Kyogre
    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Thunder Wave / Calm Mind
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Thunder
    item: Leftovers / Chesto Berry
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • The set’s aim is to either accumulate a boost or, two than ravage the team mid-game with ridiculous power or lure out Kyogre's usual counters like latias and cripple them with paralysis
    • Thunder Wave slows down Scarf users, Swift Swim / Chlorophyll Pokemon, and fast pokemon in general such as Mewtwo and Darkrai
    • Calm Mind allows Kyogre to boost it’s already impressive special stats, making it a potent sweeper
    • Thunder helps take out opposing water-types, while Ice Beam ravages through Dragons and Grass-types
    • Hydro Pump can be used to 2HKO ferrothorn after rocks at +1
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • evs can be configured to suit your team, this involves more speed bulk, ect
    • Seeing as how this set can slow cripple opposing teams with T-wave, slow wall Breakers such as CB Rayquaza, Choice Specs Kyurem-W, dialga, and lustrous orb palkia all benefit from Kyogre’s support
    • Chansey is major pain for T-wave versions as its heal bell can remove paralysis. B/c of that tickle wobba+pursuit users can help eliminate chansey in desperate situations
    • Tenta and Forretress can both provide T-spikes support, and spin away annoying hazards
    • Spikes support is great too, as it able to weaken Dialga and Palkia
    • Latias and other CM users are annoying, Tyranitar and to a lesser extent Scizor, do a good job at eliminating those troublesome CM users
    • Zekrom and bulk up dialga need to be dealt with, ferrothorn can take most attacks and provide entry hazard support to wear them down
    • modest can also be used to get a power boost
    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Scald
    move 4: Roar / Calm Mind / Thunder Wave
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Kyogre's defensive set is designed to check or counter many of the metagame's premier special attackers, this impressive list includes Kyurem-w, Dialga, Mewtwo, Darkrai (once sleep clause has been activated), opposing Kyogre (lacking Thunder), and certain Calm Mind Arceus formes. The defensive set also plays to outlast opposing weather inducers such as Groudon. This particular version of Kyogre is valued on stall teams for his ability to tank extremely powerful Draco Meteors and bring with him infinite rain, but he can also be invaluable on balanced teams; this is especially true for teams that are reliant on offensive weather sweepers such as Kabutops.</p>

    <p>Kyogre's lack of reliable recovery and vulnerability to passive damage in the form of the ever-so common Spikes mandates the use of the RestTalk strategy. It comes as no surprise that RestTalk users have a tendency to drag out momentum for their team, and Kyogre is no exception. Though there is one advantage to this strategy, and that lies in the fact that it essentially makes Kyogre impervious to crippling toxins in the form of Toxic and Toxic Spikes and in the fact that Kyogre can function as a superb sleep absorber. Scald is Kyogre's best defensive STAB given its capability to burn physical attackers such as Arceus-Normal and thus help improve upon Kyogre's uninvested physical bulk. The last three moves are rather dependent on how you want Kyogre to function relative to the structure of your own team. If your team is focused more towards racking up passive damage by stacking entry hazards and/or is in need of a phazer, then Roar is your best choice. Calm Mind bolsters Kyogre's already phenomenal special stats, allowing him to function as a simultaneous, near-impenetrable special wall and late-game sweeper; this type of Kyogre is especially useful on stall teams with Toxic Spikes support. Thunder Wave on the other hand is quite useful for its ability to cripple fast, offensive threats namely Mewtwo, Darkrai, and Choice Scarf Genesect, which lends itself use on balanced teams.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • can use a physically defensive spread with 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD and a bold nature to check mewtwo, rayquaza, ho-oh, groudon, and physical dialga
    • with calm mind, the physically defensive spread can become a good mixed wall
    • works well on stall teams that need a check to a multiude of special attackers such kyurem-w and darkrai
    • groudon and landorus-t make good partners to tank physical hits
    • excadrill works too and can provide stealth rock and rapid spin support
    • Chansey can be helpful by removing sleep with heal bell
    • Arceus-grass and giratina and great teammates, kyogre can take Ice-type attacks aimed at the two while both of them can take electric- and grass-type moves kyogre dislikes
    • Steel Arceus also benefits from rain and does well in checking dragon-types
    • opposing CM users are annoying, Scarf Genesect can deal with almost all of them, and so can Tyranitar
    • (Toxic-) Spikes works really well in breaking down the opposing team
    • Water-type resists and water-type immune Pokemon stop this set cold, Skymin and Scarf Chomp both do an excellent job at removing water- and dragon-types respectively
    [SET]
    name: Water Gem Lure
    move 1: Water Spout
    move 2: Calm Mind
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Ice Beam
    move 4: Thunder / Ice Beam
    item: Water Gem
    nature: Modest
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Really fucking strong and a formidable wallbreaker
    • CM + Water Spout + Water Gem has the capability to OHKO Ferrothorn, which is great
    • Hydro Pump works as a nice backup when Kyogre is at lower health
    • Ice Beam is for latias, while Thunder does well against palkia and opposing Kyogre
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • it can run more speed if that's appealing or any mixture of spreads to get the best fit
    • Keep it healthy. Wish users, rapid spin support, are all useful.
    • Jirachi and Chansey make good wish users while Forretress and Excadrill make excellent rapid spin partners
    • Stealth Rock support is also pretty nice as it gives Kyogre the ability to OHKO giratina-o
    • Spikes support can also be quite useful, giving Kyogre the ability to OHKO CM Arceus-grass with SR
    • Deo-s and A can all provide hazard support. Deo-A and Kabutops can clean up late game after Kyogre
      shatters half the opposing team
    [SET]
    name: Bulky Booster
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Ice Beam / Thunder
    move 4: Substitute / Rest
    item: Leftovers / Chesto Berry
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • This set attempts to gather as many boosts as possible
    • With Calm mind kyogre can boost its special stats to insane levels
    • with a sub, kyogre sets up on the blobs, things with weak dragon tail, and ferrothorn lacking power whip
    • Rest+Chesto Berry is a reliable one time healing move, and work well after a few
      CM boosts are attained
    • Thunder and Ice Beam are both excellent coverage moves, either one depends on what your team needs most
    • Scald is weaker but can be used to cripple incoming physical attackers such as zekrom
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • very flexible ev wise, can choose to run more speed with 252 hp / 252 spe or stick to the current spread, other team specific options can work too
    • Entry hazard support from Ferrothorn, and Forretress
    • Scarf Chomp support to eliminate dragons if not running Ice beam
    • If lacking Thunder Skymin can break through water-types.
    • as rare as it is, getting rid of toxic spikes is needed, otherwise kyogre is seriously crippled
    • forretress, tentacruel, and even arceus poison can help out in that regard
    • works well with toxic spikes down, ironically
    • pokemon that can clean up after kyogre's onslaught are nice too
    • extremekiller, kabutops, kingdra, ect
    [Other Options]

    <p>Despite Kyogre's insane versatility, he has very few moves that aren't included in his other sets. Toxic is one of the more prominent options, as the move can gradually deteriorate the life span of many of Kyogre's checks including Latias, Palkia, Ludicolo, and Gastrodon. Kyogre can also make use of Hidden Power Grass to get a surprise KO on the previously mentioned Gastrodon, but the move itself is far too situational to warrant use. Icy Wind allows Kyogre to remedy one of his few flaws: Speed. With Icy Wind, Kyogre can strip away Speed from the likes of Palkia and Latias, making them a little less threatening. Last, but certainly not least, Kyogre can pull off a hilarious Choice Band set to get a surprise KO on Blissey and 2HKO on Chansey without the use of Water Spout. Do note, however, that in order to achieve the above KOs, Kyogre must use Aqua Tail and have entry hazard support in the form of Stealth Rock. A final few amusing KOs that can be pulled off with a Choice Band involve a 2HKO on Latias with Double-Edge, and an OHKO on 4 HP Zekrom with Earthquake after Stealth Rock.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Good luck. Kyogre has no counters due to the fact that he can easily beat most of his checks through a variety of methods. The first step to "countering" Kyogre is to flush out his set and then send in a corresponding check. Latias is generally the go-to Kyogre check, as she can defeat most sets fairly well given her insane Soul Dew-boosted Special Defense, but there are a few things Latias must watch out for. The first of which is a Choice Specs Ice Beam that can 2HKO even the bulkiest of versions after Stealth Rock. Should Latias lack Refresh, she needs to be wary of switching into a Thunder Wave, as Kyogre can exploit the paralysis rate to eventually bring her down with repeated Ice Beams. Palkia is the best offensive check, as it can switch into a Water Spout fairly easily and 2HKO Kygore with Thunder. Just like Latias, Palkia has a variety of shortcomings such as being crippled by paralysis, easy to wear down because of its lack of reliable recovery, and of course being easy to 2HKO with a Choice Specs-boosted Thunder. Arceus-Grass is another solid check, as it can switch into all moves bar a Choice Specs Ice Beam and then proceed to cripple Kyogre with its Grass-type STABs.</p>

    <p>Due to how dominant Kyogre is, quite a few niche checks have come out to stop it; Gastrodon, Ludicolo, and Abomasnow are such examples. Gastrodon's sole purpose in Ubers is to defeat Kyogre, which it can do fairly well due to the fact that any Kyogre lacking Ice Beam is fully stopped by it. Of course if on the off-chance Kyogre does have Ice Beam (which isn't that uncommon), Gastrodon finds itself quickly 2HKOed by the Choice specs set or it becomes setup bait to Calm Mind variants. Ludicolo's quad resistance to Water Spout and overall solid Special Defense also makes it a good check. Defensive Ludicolo can take advantage of Kyogre's high HP stat and Drizzle ability to easily stall it out with a combination of Leech Seed + Rain Dish + Protect. On the flip side, offensive Ludicolo can easily 2HKO Kyogre with Grass Knot. Of course both variants of Ludicolo must watch out for a Choice Specs-boosted Thunder or a Thunder Wave. Calm Mind Kyogre can also be troublesome for Ludicolo if he has accumulated enough boosts. Just like Gastrodon, Abomasnow can take on Ice Beam-less Kyogre quite well. Abomasnow also overrides Kyogre's Drizzle with Snow Warning, which weakens Kyogre's Water-type STABs and causes it to be susceptible to the hail-inflicted residual damage. From there, Abomansow can 2HKO Kyogre with Grass Knot, or like Ludicolo, stall it out with a combination of Protect + Leech Seed. Something to keep in mind is that Abomasnow is rather easy to wear down due to its Stealth Rock weakness, so only directly switch it on Kyogre's attacks if its absolutely necessary.</p>

    <p>In terms of more stall-oriented checks, Giratina is most certainly a good choice. Its resistance to Kyogre's STABs and titanic bulk allow it to take on most versions well. Giratina can even phaze Calm Mind variants, forcing those Kyogre to rack up entry hazard damage. Although be warned that Giratina can't withstand too many of Kyogre's Ice Beams. Similar to Giratina, Ferrothorn resits Kyogre's STABs, but unlike Giratina, it is not weak to any of Kyogre's coverage attacks. Ferrothorn can easily defeat most Kyogre sets but utilizing Power Whip to land an easy 2HKO on even the bulkiest of versions. Ferrothorn can even take it a step further by setting up Spikes on Water Spout-less, Choice-locked Kyogre, which can prove to be detrimental to his team. However, Ferrothorn must be wary of being crippled by a Scald inflicted burn, being 2HKOed on the switch with a boosted Water Spout, or even being subjugated as setup bait itself to Substitute + Calm Mind Kyogre should it lack Power Whip. Chansey and Blissey's excellent Special Defense stats make them excellent checks as well. Of course there are a few things they have to watch out for. In order for Chansey and Blissey to successfully take on Choice Specs Kyogre, it must be weakened first, as Water Spout can 2HKO both of them fairly easily with entry hazard support. Substitute + Calm Mind Kyogre can also give them varying degrees of trouble, as Chansey and Blissey lacking Psyche Up will fall due to the fact that they cannot break 252 HP Kyogre's Substitute with one Seismic Toss.</p>

    <p>If you're looking for some offensive checks, then Dialga, Latios, Zekrom, or Giratina-O can prove to be good options. Dialga can work as either an offensive check or a defensive check depending on the set it chooses. Offensive Dialga can usually switch into Kyogre at least once and severely damage it with Thunder, Draco Meteor, or Outrage. More defensive versions of Diagla have an easier time switching in, though the lack of reliable recovery makes either offensive or defensive Dialga easy to wear down. Latios and Zekrom both have acceptable special bulk and high-offensive presence that allows them to easily do a number on Kyogre. Latios can 2HKO Kyogre with either Grass Knot or Thunder and Zekrom can demolish Kyogre with Bolt Strike; however, Kyogre can defeat Latios if it's hits with Ice Beam on the switch, as Latios lacks the ability to OHKO 252 HP Kyogre. Unlike Latios, however, Zekrom can OHKO Kyogre from the get-go, but it cannot switch into defensive Kyogre as easily due to the fact that Kyogre's Scald will cripple it with a burn. Do note that Kyogre can cripple Zekrom and Latios through the use of Thunder Wave. Last but not least, Giratina-O can come in on Kyogre fairly well and take it out with Draco Meteor once he is weakened. Unlike the previously mentioned Pokemon, Giratina-O lacks raw-offensive power, but in exchange it makes up for it with a more solid defensive backbone; if played well, Giratina-O makes a solid switch-in to Kyogre throughout the course of the match.</p>

    <p>Many of the Pokemon mentioned before have difficulty switching into a Choice Specs Water Spout, but there are two Pokemon in particular that can discourage Kyogre from mindlessly locking himself into his STABs: Jynx and Kingdra. Due to Jynx's immunity to Water-type moves, it can actually turn Kyogre into setup bait. In a similar vein, Kingdra can set up a Dragon Dance on choice-locked Kyogre and proceed to demolish the opposing team. Although both Jynx and Kingdra are easily destroyed by a Choice Specs Thunder, even Ice Beam can 2HKO both after Stealth Rock, so it is imperative to use them prudently. Lastly, Tyranitar and Wobbuffet can take advantage of a Choice-locked Kyogre in other ways. Both of them have enough bulk to stomach either a Thunder or an Ice Beam. From there, Wobbuffet can use Kyogre's attack against it via Mirror Coat, and Tyranitar can Pursuit trap a fleeing Kyogre thus wearing it down and simultaneously overriding Drizzle with its Sand Stream ability.</p>

    Skeleton (open)

    [Overview]
    • Great stat spread across the board
    • Incredibly versatile and almost impossible to hard counter
    • Thanks to its phenomenal ability, Drizzle, it's responsible for making over a dozen pokemon viable in ubers
    • Mediocre Speed is its only flaw, really
    • not like that matters though b/c kyogre can just run a scarf
      or invest in bulk to make up for it
    [SET]
    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Water Spout
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Thunder
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Modest
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • One of the most feared sets in the game, so much that teams dedicate an entire slot for the sole purpose of countering it
    • Surf and Hydro Pump are acceptable stabs to be used when Kyogre's health weakens
    • Thunder and Ice Beam take care of water resists
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • can use blizzard to ohko latias after prior damage
    • evs can be configured in whatever way benefits your team most
    • this can involve max speed/special attack, the above, or an mixture of the two
    • Arceus-Ground and Groudon pair well with Kyogre by beating dialga and sponging electric-type attacks.
    • While an adversary in their own right, both dialga and Giratina are excellent partners as well to take on electric- and grass-type attacks aimed at Kyogre.
    • Rapid Spin support is helpful in order to keep Kyogre healthy and keep its water spout at full health. Defensive excadrill, tentacruel, and forretress all do an excellent job at providing rapid spin support. Forretress itself can even provide spikes support. Along with with tenacruel, Forretress can provide Toxic spikes support to break down opposing counters
    • Leads such as Deo-S and A can help bring up hazards and stop opposing entry hazard setters, which is always useful
    • Wish support from Jirachi and Chansey works well in keeping Kyogre healthy
    • Kingdra and other swift swim users benefit from Kyogre’s ability to summon rain. Kingdra can even use use its Dragon-type stabs to destroy Palkia and Giratina
    • Tailwind support from Tornadus can give Kyogre a much needed speed boost, discouraging revenge killers, Tornadus can even use its stab flying-type attacks to destroy arceus-grass
    • Ferrothorn is also an excellent partner as it cover’s Kyogre’s weaknesses and can set up spikes and stealth rock
    • Finally, arceus-fighting is a useful teammate because of its ability to destroy both dialga and ferrothorn
    [SET]
    name: Choice Scarf
    move 1: Water Spout
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Thunder
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Choice Scarf
    nature: Modest
    evs: 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • powerful revenge killer and late game sweeper
    • Water Spout OHKOes almost everything that doesn't resist it
    • Surf is a more reliable STAB to use throughout the match
    • Thunder and Ice Beam are obligatory coverage moves
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • can use a 168 HP / 136 SpA / 204 Spe to outspeed mewtwo and tank an attack from +2 omastar, this spread provides the best of both worlds in terms of durability and power
    • Works well with powerful wall breakers such as Rayquaza and lustrous orb Palkia, as Kyogre can clean up against a weakened team
    • Entry hazard support and rapid spin support work well. Rapid spin helps for two reaosns: one it helps keep Kyogre's water spout at full health and two, Kyogre tends to be setup bait to spikes users when locked into the wrong move. Excadrill and Forretress can provide both spin and hazard support, as well as having good synergy with kyogre
    • Tyranitar partners well with Scarf Kyogre, as can pursuit trap Lati@s and set up SR
    • beartic functions well with Kyogre by eliminating Dragon-types and softening up the opposing team for Kyogre to take out
    • Scizor can also pursuit trap the lati twin, but it’s less reliable at doing so, however Scizor can revenge kill Skymin after SR, a major pain for Kyogre
    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Thunder Wave / Calm Mind
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Thunder
    item: Leftovers / Chesto Berry
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • The set’s aim is to either accumulate a boost or, two than ravage the team mid-game with ridiculous power or lure out Kyogre's usual counters like latias and cripple them with paralysis
    • Thunder Wave slows down Scarf users, Swift Swim / Chlorophyll Pokemon, and fast pokemon in general such as Mewtwo and Darkrai
    • Calm Mind allows Kyogre to boost it’s already impressive special stats, making it a potent sweeper
    • Thunder helps take out opposing water-types, while Ice Beam ravages through Dragons and Grass-types
    • Hydro Pump can be used to 2HKO ferrothorn after rocks at +1
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • evs can be configured to suit your team, this involves more speed bulk, ect
    • Seeing as how this set can slow cripple opposing teams with T-wave, slow wall Breakers such as CB Rayquaza, Choice Specs Kyurem-W, dialga, and lustrous orb palkia all benefit from Kyogre’s support
    • Chansey is major pain for T-wave versions as its heal bell can remove paralysis. B/c of that tickle wobba+pursuit users can help eliminate chansey in desperate situations
    • Tenta and Forretress can both provide T-spikes support, and spin away annoying hazards
    • Spikes support is great too, as it able to weaken Dialga and Palkia
    • Latias and other CM users are annoying, Tyranitar and to a lesser extent Scizor, do a good job at eliminating those troublesome CM users
    • Zekrom and bulk up dialga need to be dealt with, ferrothorn can take most attacks and provide entry hazard support to wear them down
    • modest can also be used to get a power boost
    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Scald
    move 4: Roar / Calm Mind / Thunder Wave
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Great check to most CM arceus formes
    • can check darkrai pretty decently, though it prefers if another teammate can take the dark void
    • RestTalk is the only form of reliable recovery, though it does allow Kyogre to function as a status absorber
    • Roar phazes out boosting sweepers like Arceus-Ghost
    • Calm mind is also pretty useful given its ability to make Kyogre both bulkier and stronger
    • Thunder Wave on the other hand allows it to cripple the likes of Latias
    • Scald patches up Kyogre's defense, allowing it to better take on physical attackers
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • can use a physically defensive spread with 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD and a bold nature to check mewtwo, rayquaza, ho-oh, groudon, and physical dialga
    • with calm mind, the physically defensive spread can become a good mixed wall
    • works well on stall teams that need a check to a multiude of special attackers such kyurem-w and darkrai
    • groudon and landorus-t make good partners to tank physical hits
    • excadrill works too and can provide stealth rock and rapid spin support
    • Chansey can be helpful by removing sleep with heal bell
    • Arceus-grass and giratina and great teammates, kyogre can take Ice-type attacks aimed at the two while both of them can take electric- and grass-type moves kyogre dislikes
    • Steel Arceus also benefits from rain and does well in checking dragon-types
    • opposing CM users are annoying, Scarf Genesect can deal with almost all of them, and so can Tyranitar
    • (Toxic-) Spikes works really well in breaking down the opposing team
    • Water-type resists and water-type immune Pokemon stop this set cold, Skymin and Scarf Chomp both do an excellent job at removing water- and dragon-types respectively
    [SET]
    name: Water Gem Lure
    move 1: Water Spout
    move 2: Calm Mind
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Ice Beam
    move 4: Thunder / Ice Beam
    item: Water Gem
    nature: Modest
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpA

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Really fucking strong and a formidable wallbreaker
    • CM + Water Spout + Water Gem has the capability to OHKO Ferrothorn, which is great
    • Hydro Pump works as a nice backup when Kyogre is at lower health
    • Ice Beam is for latias, while Thunder does well against palkia and opposing Kyogre
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • it can run more speed if that's appealing or any mixture of spreads to get the best fit
    • Keep it healthy. Wish users, rapid spin support, are all useful.
    • Jirachi and Chansey make good wish users while Forretress and Excadrill make excellent rapid spin partners
    • Stealth Rock support is also pretty nice as it gives Kyogre the ability to OHKO giratina-o
    • Spikes support can also be quite useful, giving Kyogre the ability to OHKO CM Arceus-grass with SR
    • Deo-s and A can all provide hazard support. Deo-A and Kabutops can clean up late game after Kyogre
      shatters half the opposing team
    [SET]
    name: Bulky Booster
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Ice Beam / Thunder
    move 4: Substitute / Rest
    item: Leftovers / Chesto Berry
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • This set attempts to gather as many boosts as possible
    • With Calm mind kyogre can boost its special stats to insane levels
    • with a sub, kyogre sets up on the blobs, things with weak dragon tail, and ferrothorn lacking power whip
    • Rest+Chesto Berry is a reliable one time healing move, and work well after a few
      CM boosts are attained
    • Thunder and Ice Beam are both excellent coverage moves, either one depends on what your team needs most
    • Scald is weaker but can be used to cripple incoming physical attackers such as zekrom
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • very flexible ev wise, can choose to run more speed with 252 hp / 252 spe or stick to the current spread, other team specific options can work too
    • Entry hazard support from Ferrothorn, and Forretress
    • Scarf Chomp support to eliminate dragons if not running Ice beam
    • If lacking Thunder Skymin can break through water-types.
    • as rare as it is, getting rid of toxic spikes is needed, otherwise kyogre is seriously crippled
    • forretress, tentacruel, and even arceus poison can help out in that regard
    • works well with toxic spikes down, ironically
    • pokemon that can clean up after kyogre's onslaught are nice too
    • extremekiller, kabutops, kingdra, ect
    [Other Options]
    • Toxic to break down walls and such
    • HP Grass for gastrodon
    • Icy Wind to get the jump on faster threats
    • Choice Band to get a surprise KO on blissey
    [Checks and Counters]
    • Latias
    • Palkia
    • Arceus-Grass
    • Gastrodon
    • Ludicolo
    • Abomasnow
    • Giratina
    • Chansey / blissey
    • Dialga
    • Latios
    • Zekrom
    • Giratina-o
    • Kingdra and Jynx
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2013
  2. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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  3. The Unlucky one

    The Unlucky one

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    I think Genesect needs to be mentioned here as a partner as the U-Turning Scarf Gene into Kyogre has been a core that has been working for quite some time.
    EDIT: I didn't see it in the mono-attacking set. Regardless, i believe it might fit better either in the Specs or the Scarf set. I'm not that great in ubers though so you may correct me on that.
  4. Spirit

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    R-e-a-d. It was in there somewhere before you posted.

    Right, I'll add that in a bit.
  5. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    I don't see any particular need for Kyogre to run an odd number for HP, to be honest, and I'm not liking the 8 Spe purely because it's speed creep. Is there any particular that 248 HP does, otherwise can we just make it 252 HP / 252 SpA? The same applies for:

    About the two mono-sets, I reckon they should just be called "Physically Defensive" and "Specially Defensive", while Calm Mind and Roar can be used interchangeably on both. SpD Calm Mind is actually a relatively good long term Ghost Arceus check, since you can Calm Mind alongside it and outdamage it most of the time, and it won't fail if Ghostceus is the last mon. So basically, you can have:

    [SET]
    name: Specially Defensive
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Rest
    move 3: Sleep Talk
    move 4: Calm Mind / Roar
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD

    and

    [SET]
    name: Physically Defensive
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Rest
    move 3: Sleep Talk
    move 4: Roar / Calm Mind
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 248 HP / 8 Def / 252 SpD


    I also think I number of other sets should be included. SubCM is in the analysis but it seems you have put it in the offensive CM set. I'd almost be okay with this... except you have 248 HP EVs on that set, which means that you can't make 101 HP Subs any more, which kind of loses the whole purpose of SubCM, since you can set up on Blissey (however rare) with that. I'd personally make SubCM a separate set, since it does play very different from offensive Calm Mind, which I tend to run 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid with.

    Another set that I love using these days (courtesy of Poppy) is Calm Mind + Water Gem + Water Spout. I'm not too sure if this deserves a set all on it's own, but it does seem too much to mention as AC on its own, so I reckon it should get a separate set. Basically, with Calm Mind, Water Gem and Water Spout, you can OHKO Ferrothorn and Blissey, making it a fantastic lure for these threats. I have:

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind + Water Spout
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Water Spout
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Ice Beam
    move 4: Thunder / Ice Beam
    item: Water Gem
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

    Even if you're not at high enough HP to use Water Spout, Hydro Pump is usually enough to blast at least 80-90% into Ferrothorn at +1 and Water Gem. You can have Groudon switch into Thunder as well, thinking that you can't kill it, only to take a Water Gem Water Spout and get OHKOed even in the sun. Even at +1, Ghostceus would be VERY hard pressed to take on a Water Gem boosted Hydro Pump as well. This is pretty much the Kyogre set I've been using on ALL of my teams because it's just so damn awesome.

    Lastly, I know this is a gimmick, but please add Choice Band Kyogre to Other Options. It is actually funny watching stuff like Ghostceus think they can Calm Mind in your face when it does nothing to cushion Waterfall. It also lures out Blissey (if your opponent has one) and punch a huge hole into it. It also learns Earthquake and can 2HKO Dialga, so any Dialga thinking they have a free turn is in for a massive surprise. It's not good enough to warrant its own set, but OO is just right for it, IMO.
  6. Spirit

    Spirit
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    Sorry for the delay, but I expanded and got the skeleton ready. Some sets seem a little pale I suppose, but they seem pretty self-explanatory to me. I can add more content if requested.
  7. trickroom

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    You need to remove that 0 Attack IVs from all the sets. It is only useful for really specific situations such as when facing Foul Play users, and the only one who uses that is Sableye and maybe Liepard.

    Kyogre isn't even afraid of Sableye at all and normally you don't put 0 Atk IVs only for rare circumstances in analyses.

    Mention Hydro Pump in the Offensive Calm Mind set, for the sheer power. +1 Hydro Pump can 2HKO Ferrothorn and Blissey after Stealth Rock damage. Modest nature can also be used on this set, put it in AC.

    Put in this set please in the analysis, the one shrang posted. It is a lure set and does a great job at it by OHKOing most of your checks, fails against Latias sadly but she is the best counter anyway. Without Ice Beam, Gastrodon walls you completely.

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind + Water Spout
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Water Spout
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Ice Beam
    move 4: Thunder / Ice Beam
    item: Water Gem
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

    The checks and counters list has to change. Usually they put the best and most common counters first. The weakening Water Spout isn't that important, as Kyogre still has that insanely powerful Surf to spam.

    Make it like this, unless they are people who disagree, free to mention it.

    latias, palkia, grass arceus, gastrodon, ludicolo, abomasnow, giratina, chansey/blissey, ferrothorn, dialga, latios, zekrom, giratina-o, kingdra, jynx

    Latias is usually accepted as the most reliable Kyogre counter as Scarf Ice Beam doesn't 2HKO and she can strike back hard with Thunder or Grass Knot. The only way Latias will lose to Kyogre is either an unlucky freeze, critical hit or you came in directly on Specs Ice Beam. Levitate lets Latias fly over Spikes so she can stay healthy to keep on coming in thanks to Roost as well.

    Palkia can check Kyogre with just about any set and isn't weak to anything. Specs Thunder 2HKOes Palkia but Palkia can 2HKO back with Thunder of its own and usually Palkia will outrun and outdamage Kyogre, unless you come in on Calm Mind. Even then Palkia can bypass it with Outrage and KO Kyogre first.

    Grass Arceus outruns any non-Scarf Kyogre set, and deals heavy damage with Grass Knot. Specs Ice Beam once again 2HKOes but you can't do much to stop that besides using Light Screen. If Kyogre tries to setup, Grass Arceus can do the same and win eventually. Being Spikes weak can sometimes push you into 2HKOe range of Scarf Ice Beam sadly.

    Ludicolo and Gastrodon are both rare pokemon, but they are niche ones for good reason. Kyogre can't do anything to Gastrodon, unless it is the Calm Mind set with Substitute and Ice Beam. Ludicolo can Leech Seed, Grass Knot Kyogre for the 2HKO and while Specs Thunder hurts, Ludicolo can take any other attack and win most of the time.

    Abomasnow can survive 2 Specs Spout from full health, but it is vulnerable to entry hazards, something like Stealth Rock will hurt it. It still beats any other Kyogre set with Wood Hammer and Leech Seed. Specially Defensive Giratina can do the same but can't do much back.

    The rest of the pokemon in the list cannot switch in on full power Specs Water Spouts. Ferrothorn, Blissey, Chansey and Dialga can beat most sets. SubCM will defeat the blobs and Power Whipless Ferrothorns. Latios is 2HKOed by Scarf Water Spout so it is not a good initial switch in just a check. Giratina-O can only check the defensive sets with Outrage, as Ice Beam will 2HKO easily. Kingdra and Jynx can take Water-type attacks, but they are smashed by Thunder and cannot threaten Kyogre immediately. Both make good checks to the choice sets.
  8. Spirit

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    Okay, done. The only reason I didn't put latias at the top of the list is b/c specs Ice Beam 2HKOs. =/ Blissey and Chansey have a chance against specs if Water Spout isn't at full health. I wasn't sure were to put that water gem set, so I put it under Scarf because I tried it out and I thought it was that good. I can change that by request though.
  9. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Okay, so I'm going to be posting a bunch of nitpicks.

    The 248 HP EVs actually let Kyogre save damage from 3 layers of Spikes, however pointless that is. However, the SubCM set should have 252 (for obvious reasons) and don't put the extra 8 EVs in speed since it just looks like speed creeping. (stick them in Physical Defense) Also, the Scarf set spread in particular is really strange, change it to 4 Def / 252 SpA / 252 Spe.

    Speaking of the Scarf set, slash Timid as a nature to get the jump on all the other Scarf 90s and Deo A.

    All the Defensive Ogre sets (both special and physical) should be
    move 1: Scald
    move 2: Rest
    move 3: Sleep Talk
    move 4: Roar / Calm Mind

    Surf doesn't even deserve a slash since Scald is so important to get past things like Ferrothorn and Zekrom and Roar was agreed to get first slash since that was the original set Poppy/TR had for the SpDef set (and it's just obviously better on the physical set)

    Needed is a bit misleading, change it to something like "appreciated" because running Kyogre by no means forces you to run a Rapid Spin user as well.

    This seems like a good place to mention Swift Swimmers in general since they are all potential teammates that profit from Rain. (you can still pick out Kingdra as a specific)

    Arceus-normal is by no means a wall breaker, if you set it up you are going to be cleaning with it. (or fall flat against the things that wall it)

    Okay, I'm kinda dumb so I'm probably missing something obvious but how does Offensive CM Kyogre stall a Palkia? It would be a lot better off just firing a Thunder after a CM boost (and hope for a Para if it tanks it) than trying to keep CMing on his Thunders. Even Giratina has RestTalk and can just phaze you out when you start to get greedy. Spikes seem more important to this set for the initial damage, the slow rack up is better for the defensive CM sets. (Again, I might be missing something)

    Ho-Oh is a big one to mention here as having an additional check to it is one of the big draws to this over the SpDef set. (It's still just a soft check though)

    It's still a good idea to mention that, ideally, something else should still take the sleep as it allows Kyogre to have free move choice as well as be able to Rest when it's health gets low. (also avoids Bad Dreams)

    The crutch part is what bothers me. This is probably the best set for Rain stall teams because it is so good at taking care of multiple significant threats. (like Kyurem-W and Darkrai)

    The Thunder Wave set is missing out on it's biggest draw, which is luring out and crippling most of his typical checks/counters. (especially Latias, she deserves a specific mention for this) You should also explain the potential Lum Berry choice as a way to beat Darkrai one-on-one as well as faking a Choice set. Also, change the mixed Palkia set to Lustrous Orb Palkia since the former has really disappeared while the latter is arguably its best set. Lastly,
    You should probably mention this as an option if you are desperate because support for support is pretty excessive (and probably means you've got some major issues in teambuilding).

    Slash Scald on the ChestoRest set as crippling Ferro/Zekrom is still good for a semi-defensive CM set. Do the same on the SubCM set as well. (it allows Kyogre to Sub block an Adamant, max attack Dtail from Tina-O when it's burned) Speaking of STAB slashes, slash Hydro Pump on the Offensive CM Ogre set.

    You mentioned Toxic twice in Other Options and the Water Gem lure set is supposed to have its own set.


    Sorry for being a bit naggy with all the nitpicks (as well as any overlap with what TR already posted). Looking good overall.


    Edit: Ah I was typing this up as you were editing the analysis so I might have missed something that you just added.

    Edit2: Change the CM + Water Spout set name to "Water Gem Lure" since it highlights the difference between it and the close Offensive CM set.
  10. Spirit

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    Okay, made your changes. The whole T-spikes thing was just a goof up when I originally had sub slashed on there. Sorry about that x-x
  11. MatchMaster

    MatchMaster

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    A nitpick, but I think you should mention an alternate spread on the offensive Calm Mind set of 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe with a Modest Nature and Leftovers. I find being able to set up on Kyurem-W, Dialga, Latios, Palkia, and Reshiram after a Draco Meteor to be surprisingly easy. It still has pretty much the same counters as your spread, so I don't think it merits a completely different set.
  12. Hack He Must

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    I don't know how active this update is but I have been in here before where I in a little disrespectful way wrote that Kyogre cannot be labelled the as the best Pokémon in the game. Also, I don't know if the sentence I was nitpicking us just some skeleton thing, or if it will actually be written in such a way in the analysis. Even though I am sorry for my poor behavior, I am still firm on my point that the following sentence must be removed:

    Although it is true that Kyogre might be a defining force, a Pokémon all teams require to have a way of handling, the wording is clumsy here. A new player wanting to learn the metagame will look at the analysis and see that there is actually a "best" Pokémon in the metagame! Best as in what interpretation? That is rather vague because saying something is the best must also mean that there is literally no meaning in no using this Pokémon on your team. Just like there is no "best" team in a tier, because such a team would be expected to win almost all games- the term "best" Pokémon cannot exist either for in the eyes of a new player, something that is seemingly the "best" must also bring along the most victories in battles. A better way to word this is by saying Kyogre is "the most defining Pokémon in the tier" or something else in that fashion.

    Also, if we were to judge Pokémon as best by dividing its qualities such as damage output, ease to support, ease to sweep, versatility etc, then the title of the overall "best" Pokémon in the game belongs to Arceus.
  13. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    I don't think it really matters at this point, since it's still a skeleton and the OP hasn't written anything about it yet.
  14. Spirit

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    Each Arceus form is treated individually, you know that right? In terms of power, versatility, and sheer influence, it's foolish to call Kyogre anything but the best. It single-handedly accounts for the viability of over a dozen a Pokemon in ubers. Arceus (any form) does not possess that kind of stature. On it's own, yes, Kyogre would just be like any other uber, but drizzle is such a metagame defining ability and Kyogre just fits with it so perfectly. I also wouldn't take a one liner so seriously and act like that it's the end of the world because it lacks description. It's a skeleton for peat's sake. Obviously, there will be an explanation as to why this title is given to it in the write up and the preceding bullet points gives it some kind of validation. I understand that the "best" is subjective, but if anything is going to be given that title, it's Kyogre.
  15. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Just wanted to mention that we had actually talked about this a while back and Theorymon said he didn't like using best in any of the analyses. (dunno what'll happen with the EKiller one, it has bigger problems right now though lol) He felt the same way as Hack about the subjectivity of the word (if I remember wrong he can correct me). I don't think we ever came to a conclusion to what to put in it's place or whatever (like you said it's a one liner so not that high a priority) but I think "King of Ubers" is a fair replacement as Kyogre has been dubbed as such for a very long time. This would kill two birds with one stone in that it would properly introduce Kyogre as a/the defining force as well as inform newcomers on who exactly we are talking about when we mention the King of Ubers.
  16. Demon Lord Ghirahim

    Demon Lord Ghirahim

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    I am not really interested in this thread myself, and I also do not expect this post to convince anyone here of anything, but I would just like to post a message here anyway at Hack He Must's request, in which I will raise three points to refute the notion that Kyogre is "the best Pokémon in the game."

    1. Kyogre has Drizzle as its Ability. As long as a Pokémon has a weather-summoning Ability, it cannot be the best Pokémon in the game, since it suddenly becomes unviable in any team that focuses on a weather other than the one the Pokémon in question summons. This is in stark contrast with many other Pokémon such as Arceus-Normal, Arceus-Ghost, Lugia, Dialga, Palkia, Giratina, Genesect and Darkrai, which are completely viable on any team regardless of what weather it utilizes. In other words, they do not suddenly become nothing more than a hindrance when used in a Sun, sand or hail team, unlike Kyogre, and the fact that many Pokémon are viable in more team archetypes than Kyogre (with viability being equivalent to how good a Pokémon is) serves as strong evidence against the notion that Kyogre is "the best Pokémon in the game."

    Of course, in this point, I am not saying that being a weather summoner does nothing but hinder the viability of a Pokémon or anything like that, since it is undeniable that both Politoed and Ninetales owe their OU status completely to their Dream World Abilities, and I am not saying that Pokémon such as Dialga and Palkia are better than Kyogre and Groudon just because they are potentially viable in more types of teams in the metagame than either of those weather summoners. In respect to the fact that Kyogre and Groudon are an absolute necessity in any team that seeks to abuse rain and Sun respectively, they are extremely viable support Pokémon (moreso than the vast majority of Pokémon in the Übers metagame), whereas while Dialga and Palkia are viable in both rain and Sun teams, unlike Kyogre and Groudon, neither of them is a necessity in a team of either weather. But the fact that any weather summoner suddenly becomes completely unviable, and even a hindrance in any team whose weather does not focus on the one the Pokémon in question summons cannot be overlooked no matter what. And while this does not stop Kyogre and Groudon from being two of the most useful and metagame-defining Pokémon in the Übers tier, I believe that it would be a large stretch to say that "Kyogre is the best Pokémon in the game" in spite of this, when Arceus-Normal, a Pokémon which literally fits in every single team archetype, stands as by far the deadliest and most dominant sweeper in any Generation V metagame, has a much, much easier time setting up compared to all other setup sweepers such as Darkrai, Mewtwo and Rayquaza thanks to its supreme bulk and lack of weaknesses, forces every single team to have a solid check or counter no matter what (believe it or not, but even Kyogre itself does not do this contrary to popular beliefs, as I know of three excellent teams that lack a true Kyogre counter or check, and yet handle Kyogre just fine), instantly wins battles as soon as it somehow gets past its checks or counters (for example, using entry hazards to weaken the opponent's Choice Scarf Terrakion to the KO range of a +2 ExtremeSpeed, or critical hitting the opponent's Dragon Tail Giratina-O with a +2 Shadow Claw) when every single other offensive threat in the game can still be played around after their checks or counters have been defeated, and does not even show itself for certain in the Team Preview, exists.

    2. Because Drought is the polar opposite of Drizzle, one cannot say that Kyogre is any more metagame-defining than Groudon in respect to its team supportive ability embodied by Drizzle, since for every single way in which Drizzle supports a team or influences the metagame, Drought supports a team or influences the metagame in the exact opposite way. For example, while making one's own Ferrothorn much more difficult to take out is one way in which Kyogre provides team support and impacts on the metagame, this automatically entails that making the opponent's Ferrothorn much easier to KO is one way in which Groudon provides team support and impacts on the metagame. And while Kyogre provides team support and impacts on the metagame by activating the Swift Swim Ability and making Pokémon such as Kabutops incredibly dangerous, this itself means that Groudon provides team support and impacts on the metagame by serving as one of the best countermeasures to Swift Swim abusers in the Übers metagame.

    3. Many people in this community believe that Kyogre is the single most powerful offensive Pokémon in the game, as evident from the observation of the general consensus in this thread, due to the common belief that it is the single most difficult Pokémon in the game to directly switch into and counter (with "counter" being in the strictest sense of the word - being able to switch into a Pokémon, before proceeding to either beat it one-on-one, force the opponent to switch it out, or pseudo-Haze it away). In this point, I would first like to not only dispel the illusion according to which Kyogre is a more dangerous offensive threat than Arceus-Normal for the reason that I have cited above, but also put an end to the incorrect general belief that "how dangerous an offensive threat a Pokémon is" is directly and only proportional to "how difficult it is to directly switch into and counter in the strictest sense of that word," a notion which I have noticed to have completely plagued the mindset of the vast majority of people on this site who argue for why this or that Pokémon should be banned from OU in the OU suspect test debates, since it is extremely common to see people claiming that "X should be banned from OU because it can KO every single Pokémon in that metagame in one to two hits given a Choice item as well as the assumption that it predicts correctly, and the fact that it somewhat comes close to securing a KO every time it comes in safely means it must be an overwhelmingly powerful offensive threat, even though it can be easily revenge-killed after that point."

    While the following may be common sense, the vast majority of people evidently do not appear to consciously acknowledge (at least when it comes to debating how powerful an offensive threat really is) the fact that when one speaks of a Pokémon being "an immensely powerful offensive threat," said offensive threat can fall into one of two entirely different categories (since there are two entirely different possible reasons as to why a Pokémon can be regarded as "an immensely powerful offensive threat"): Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threats, and Sweeper Offensive Threats.

    • An Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threat is a Pokémon that is almost impossible to switch into and directly counter in the strictest sense of that word, meaning more often than not, whenever an Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threat manages to switch in safely, it can almost guarantee the fall of a Pokémon on the opponent's team, at least assuming it predicts correctly. Although Kyogre is capable of running a Calm Mind set, and therefore can be a Sweeper Offensive Threat, being an Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threat is the primary reason why many people believe that Kyogre, or more specifically, its Choice Specs set, is the most powerful offensive threat in the game. Some of the most notable Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threats in the Übers metagame include Life Orb Ho-Oh, Choice Specs Kyurem-W, Soul Dew Latios and Choice Specs Kyogre.
    • A Sweeper Offensive Threat is a Pokémon that isn't necessarily even difficult to switch into and directly counter in the strictest sense of the word at all, yet such Pokémon can be just as, if not even more dangerous than even the deadliest of the Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threats, because when they do get past their checks or counters, they threaten not just one Pokémon in the opponent's team, but the opponent's entire team itself. This is in stark contrast with the Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threats, as although a Pokémon like Choice Specs Kyurem-W is extremely dangerous in respect to the fact that whenever it comes in safely the opponent is very likely to lose a Pokémon, it cannot threaten to demolish the opponent's entire team, as after it KOs a Pokémon, the opponent can easily send in a revenge-killer and force Kyurem-W to either switch out or get KO'd. Sweeper Offensive Threats almost always utilize stat-boosting moves, and some of the most notable of such in the Übers metagame include Extreme Killer Arceus, Calm Mind or Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost, Nasty Plot Darkrai, and Swords Dance or Dragon Dance Rayquaza.
    The above distinction between the two types of offensive threats in Pokémon demonstrates why the common argument that "Kyogre is more dangerous than Extreme Killer Arceus because it is harder to counter" does not work, since Extreme Killer Arceus and Choiced Kyogre are both very threatening offensive Pokémon for entirely different reasons. Unless one can provide a good argument suggesting otherwise, I see no reason to regard Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threats as being any "better" or "more dangerous" than Sweeper Offensive Threats. Below is some information about Arceus-Normal I have written long ago (the parts about Chandelure may seem out of place, but that was because I was talking about DW Ubers back then):

    The above, combined with what I have said in the last sentence of my first point in this post, shows exactly why Extreme Killer Arceus is and should be considered "something incredibly special" among Sweeper Offensive Threats. On the other hand, Kyogre as an offensive threat is actually absolutely nothing special at all, both as a Sweeper Offensive Threat, and also as an Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threat (this isn't to say that Kyogre isn't one of the deadliest Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threats. It certainly is, but it is in no way "special" among Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threats in the same way that Extreme Killer Arceus is definitely "special" among Sweeper Offensive Threats), something I will demonstrate by comparing it to one other (in my eyes, undeniably more dangerous) Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threat: Life Orb Ho-Oh.

    It is true that Kyogre's Water Spout, especially coming from the Choice Specs set, has far more raw power than any attack Life Orb Ho-Oh can dish out, but this would only really be significant if not for the fact that there are just way too many Pokémon in the Übers metagame that not only resist Water, but also often possess the power to significantly damage Kyogre, and therefore weakening its Water Spout. Not only are Ferrothorn, Dialga, Palkia, specially-defensive Giratina-A, and Latias all extremely common Pokémon in the Übers metagame, but a significant number of teams even contain three or more of such. Aside from this, and possibly the fact that Kyogre provides its own weather while Ho-Oh must rely on Groudon, it is easy to observe that Kyogre's merits over Life Orb Ho-Oh in terms of how deadly of an Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threat ends here, whereas there is a very important point that makes Life Orb Ho-Oh a more dangerous Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threat than even Choice Specs Kyogre.

    The first thing to note is that Ho-Oh's offensive coverage generally spans entirely across two Same Type Attack Bonus moves, whereas Kyogre's offensive coverage generally spans across one Same Type Attack Bonus move (or two, but they are of the same type anyway) and two moves for which it does not receive Same Type Attack Bonus. Putting aside the fact that STAB Fire + STAB Flying itself provides significantly better coverage than STAB Water + non-STAB Electric + non-STAB Ice (mainly due to the existence and prevalence of Ferrothorn, Dialga and Palkia), and assuming for argument's sake that the quality of Kyogre's offensive coverage is exactly the same as that of Ho-Oh's, attention ought to be drawn towards the fact that being able to deal significant damage to most of the metagame with two STAB moves is inherently better than being able to deal significant damage to most of the metagame with one STAB move and two non-STAB moves. The most basic reason why that is the case is because a Pokémon having offensive coverage spanning across three moves means that in theory, it only has a 33.33% chance of predicting correctly, whereas a Pokémon whose coverage spans across two moves has a 50% chance of predicting correctly in theory, and in this case, the situation is even worse for the Pokémon whose coverage spans across three moves, since offensive Kyogre tend to be Choiced, whereas Life Orb Ho-Oh isn't (and Kyogre cannot afford to hold Life Orb as much as Ho-Oh can, due to this item weakening Water Spout's power, as well as Kyogre's lack of Roost + Regenerator), so even if Ho-Oh predicts incorrectly, it can simply use its other attack on the next turn, whereas Kyogre is forced to switch out and therefore serves as setup fodder on that turn. And the second reason why a Pokémon having its offensive coverage spanning across two STAB moves is better than having it spanning across one STAB move and two non-STAB moves is because the former tends to be punished far less severely for misprediction than the latter. Because Ho-Oh receives STAB for both Brave Bird and Sacred Fire, it can often deal significant damage with its Life Orb-boosted attacks even if it mispredicts and hits what would normally be a Sacred Fire target with Brave Bird, and vice-versa (and to add on to that, even if Ho-Oh predicts incorrectly and lands a Sacred Fire on a Pokémon it would rather hit with Brave Bird, there is always the 47.5% chance of it being rewarded anyway, in the form of the target being burned). But Kyogre would only really want to use its non-STAB moves, Ice Beam and Thunder to either hit either Palkia, or certain Pokémon that resist Water but are weak to Ice or Electric, so if it uses one of such moves but predicts incorrectly, then it is punished significantly more than Life Orb Ho-Oh would be if it mispredicts, as such non-STAB moves do not deal much damage when they hit targets that resist them, or even some bulky targets that are neutral to them (God, ironically, forbid an Arceus-Normal coming into a Choice Scarf Kyogre locked into Ice Beam), and this is again debilitating considering offensive Kyogre's tendency to use Choice items (it should also be noted that everything I have mentioned in this paragraph regarding the disadvantage of an offensive Pokémon relying on one STAB move and two non-STAB moves for coverage (with the exception of any mentions of Choice items, of course) applies to Mewtwo as well, and strongly contributes to why I believe that it is also a very overrated Pokémon in the Generation V Übers metagame.)

    Life Orb Ho-Oh was chosen for the above example to show why Kyogre is not even the most dangerous Pokémon among the Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threats as it demonstrates that point by far the most effectively, but some of what I have mentioned above apply to Choice Specs Kyurem-W as well. While Choice Specs Kyurem-W's offensive coverage spans across three moves just like Kyogre, what makes it a generally more dangerous Almost Uncounterable Offensive Threat than Kyogre is the fact that it receives STAB for two moves, and effectively three moves under harsh sunlight, meaning it is not punished as much and doesn't as easily become setup fodder in the event of misprediction, and not to mention STAB Dragon/STAB Ice/Sun-boosted non-STAB Fire provides much better offensive coverage than STAB rain-boosted Water/non-STAB Electric/non-STAB Ice anyway (even when taking into account the absurd raw power of Kyogre's rain-boosted STAB Water Spout, due to Water's rather poor offensive coverage compared to Dragon, Ice and Fire in the Übers metagame).

    Finally, I would also like to point out one last problem with an offensive Pokémon that relies on one STAB move and two non-STAB moves for coverage, with this problem being exclusive to Kyogre itself, when talking about Pokémon relevant to the Übers metagame: the fact that Kyogre's one and only type of attack for which it receives STAB has its power halved under harsh sunlight. While it may seem strange to conceive of Kyogre finding itself in the Sun, I have actually fought many battles in which I have directly exploited Kyogre's dependence on rain (and general helplessness in the Sun) by switching and sacrificing a Groudon against it lategame, before proceeding to use Kyogre as complete setup fodder in the Sun for a powerful sweeper such as Extreme Killer Arceus, the true best Pokémon in the game. Below are some replays that demonstrate exactly what I am talking about:

    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-20378701
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-20369451
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-20213795
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-20374055
    http://pokemonshowdown.com/replay/uberssuspecttest-20211712
    hyw, Go10, Jukain and 8 others like this.
  17. Spirit

    Spirit
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    tl:dr

    Not interested in fully reading an essay glorifying one of the most overated Pokemon in ubers and somehow saying sun is just as influential as rain is absurd. I love how you ignored that the chlorophyll users are all mediocre compared to the swift swimmers. Then there's also the fact that rain benefits more Pokemon defensively than sun does. Not to mention that the whole Arceus sets up on Kyogre in the sun is just a bs arguments anyway when A) Kyogre can roar it out or B) switch into one of the few dozen Pokemon that can deal with extremekiller anyway. Idek know why you compared Kyogre to Ho-oh b/c they're so freaking different anyway. There's just so many fallacies and bs in that post that I don't feel like addressing. Most good players don't even consider E-killer the best thing that's ever existed. Anyway, I made your change mm, I'll just leave it at that.
    Magcargo 2, Rohail and JoshuaMunoz like this.
  18. peacaroo

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    Not sure why you say that Extremekiller Arceus is overrated. It's the best sweeper in the tier, yet a bunch of people seem to think that it's not that good. If anything, it would seem to be slightly underrated.

    I'll just add my two cents. Kyogre can hit hard, but, it's too slow to ever sweep. Kyogre is ridiculously easy to revenge kill. Palkia, Dialga, Giratina-O, Latias, Latios, etc. can all usually beat it, and most teams carry at least 2-3 Pokemon that can deal with it. Sure, Kyogre might get 1-2 KOs, but it won't be doing more than that. Even with a choice scarf, Kyogre is still slower than pretty much every other scarfer (especially genesect).

    Now think about Extremekiller Arceus. Every team needs to have at least one Pokemon to check Arceus and can't let that Pokemon take significant damage until Arceus has been dealt with. For example, if my dedicated check is scarf Terrakion, then I probably won't bring it in except to get rid of Arceus. Even if I could trade Terrakion for three opposing Pokemon, I wouldn't do it because then the rest of my team might get swept. The thing is, Arceus makes every team do this. This places limits on teambuilding and strategy that a lot of people don't seem to realize.

    I agree that Kyogre helps define the metagame because of Drizzle, but Arceus is just as important to the metagame because of how freaking good it is offensively. People think that it's not that good because every good team has something that can check it, but why do those teams have to use those Arceus checks in the first place? Why doesn't every team have a Palkia check or a Dialga check? And like I said, a good team doesn't have to dedicate a team slot to beating Kyogre since so many good Pokemon already fill that role.

    Kyogre is the "King of Ubers" simply because of its ability, which gives rise to many strategies that define the metagame. Even if teams don't have trouble with Kyogre, they still have to deal with the rain. In terms of offensive prowess, Arceus is hands down the most defining Pokemon in the tier.

    I don't really know what criteria you use to judge "best Pokemon". If it's the ability the to define the metagame, then yes, Kyogre probably takes the cake. But if we're talking about offense, utility, and the ability to fit into nearly every team, then Arceus is better.
  19. Theorymon

    Theorymon AHHHH REAL GOOMBAS!
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    Guys, stop arguing about this shit, it has so little to do with the analysis. If I hear anymore about stuff like Kyogre vs Normal Arceus, I might just infract you!
    Magcargo 2 likes this.
  20. Melee Mewtwo

    Melee Mewtwo lol, nice
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    Something to mention for the Scarf set is that it has to be careful about the Spike setters, especially once Water Spout isn't an option. Surf does pebbles to Ferrothorn and Ice Beam is going to tickle Forretress. Even Skarmory can come in on a Ice Beam and Deoxys-D doesn't mind anything that isn't Water type.
  21. Spirit

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    Okay, I mentioned that alongside the rapid spin support and why it's so helpful.
  22. Blue Jay

    Blue Jay The notorious J Lube
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    In actual sun teams - which specifically implies significant reliance on sun (Groudon =/= sun team) - Kyogre is a hindrance. The best dual weather teams are rarely actual weather teams in any sense, but rather teams which use multiple weather starters for the roles that they effectively accomplish. The other Pokemon in such teams are usually Pokemon which function very well in both weathers and rarely Pokemon that are very reliant on their preferred weather to be effective (eg Swift Swim sweepers).

    Also, what exactly does Kyogre do to help against rain teams?
  23. Spirit

    Spirit
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    Can you read the analysis before posting a suggestion (that was there long before you posted or even signed up for that matter) and not spam this thread with trivial gabble? Thanks. I'm getting really annoyed with this. I don't understand why everyone thinks their opinion is so important that they need to post it here. I'd like some QC checks if that's alright so I can finish Kyogre and not deal with this anymore.
    Last edited: Aug 3, 2013
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  24. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Okay, I've talked with QC and we've decided that we can have some of these sets merged. We're not really trying to say some sets are bad or outclassed, we just think that there's just too much work here and we'd like to cut you (and later the reader) some slack in this analysis. We came up with:

    Merge SubCM and ChestoRest and call it "Bulky Booster" - Both of these sets attempt to boost up while avoiding status, while not being a mono-attacker. As for the move/item order, I'd say have Substitute / Rest and Leftovers / Chesto Berry. In the set comments, I'd talk about SubCM in one paragraph and ChestoRest in another.

    Merge the defensive sets and have SpD as the main EV spread and call it "RestTalk" - Both of these are RestTalk sets. SpD is the more prevalent and arguably more useful of the current metagame, so it gets the main spread. However, we would like to see a sizable paragraph about the physically defensive spread and its uses. I'd also like to see Thunder Wave get a slash on this set.

    Merge the Thunder Wave set and Offensive CM and call it "Offensive" - This one was a bit harder, but I think we can merge these two. They defer in one move, and one is a lure while the other is a flat-out non-Choiced attacker. As for move order, I'd say Thunder Wave / Calm Mind.

    So the result is:

    [SET]
    name: Bulky Booster
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Surf
    move 3: Ice Beam / Thunder
    move 4: Substitute / Rest
    item: Leftovers / Chesto Berry
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe

    [SET]
    name: RestTalk
    move 1: Rest
    move 2: Sleep Talk
    move 3: Scald
    move 4: Roar / Calm Mind / Thunder Wave
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Calm
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 SpD

    - Put 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 SpD Bold in AC

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Thunder Wave / Calm Mind
    move 2: Surf / Hydro Pump
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Thunder
    item: Leftovers / Chesto Berry
    nature: Modest
    evs: 252 HP / 252 SpA / 4 Spe


    Other set specific notes:
    - Choice Specs - I'd like to see Blizzard mentioned in AC. OHKOing Latias after SR and about 5% of prior damage is just too good to pass up sometimes.

    More general notes:
    - One thing which I think is important is that every set, apart from Defensive and Choice Scarf have potential to be extremely variable in the EV spreads according to what is needed in the team. For example, you have 252 HP / 252 SpA listed for most of them, but they can easily be 252 SpA / 252 Spe or 252 HP / 252 Spe or anything in between. Make sure you make very clear that Kyogre's EVs are incredibly flexible and it's up to the reader to select what's right for them. While some people say Kyogre is straight-forward because its sets run very similar moves, it is this quality of Kyogre with its different EV spreads to fit into different that makes it so versatile.
    - We've decided for set order: Specs > Scarf > Defensive > Offensive > Water Gem > Bulky Booster

    Implement these and I'll approve.
  25. Spirit

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    Ok. I think I got everything.

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