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OU Kyurem-B
- Thread starter Jukain
- Start date
Remind me again why naive max speed mixed (max spa max spe with fusion bolt) kyub isn't here? It outspends jolly lucario and OHKOs with earth power.
Also gives gene +1 spa so that you can tank scarf ihead and roost off.
Also outruns adamant pinsir and jolly exca and jolly landorust and modest / adamant base 100s and modest Landorus-I why isn't this mentioned srsly luring lucario is so easy and you live every priority move after SR with 0 bulk investment
Also gives gene +1 spa so that you can tank scarf ihead and roost off.
Also outruns adamant pinsir and jolly exca and jolly landorust and modest / adamant base 100s and modest Landorus-I why isn't this mentioned srsly luring lucario is so easy and you live every priority move after SR with 0 bulk investment
Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
speically based mixed attacker is near max speed. It's EV'd to outspeed max landorus-T, tbh, base 90 is much more relevant but it was like 8 more EVs to get that tier so it almost feels wrong not to get that tier. After that there's really not much ebtween 91-95. Megachomp is 92 actually but it's probably gunna outspeed you anyways with because it has 102 on the evolution turn.
Same with CB. Also, Freeze Shock should get an AC/OO mention on it just for being so hard to switch into. If the opponent does not have Protect on what is out right now, something is most likely taking a ton of damage (this OHKOs Ferro to give an idea.) Even with the charge turn it's all he has and the power is worth it to the point it deserves some type of mention.
i took a semi-little break yesterday, so sorry for not getting to your comments.
i was aware of the ev spread issue, and have made the change now. thanks. i also adjusted the evs on bulky a little bit as per smb's suggestion and moved dclaw to the first slash over dragon tail.
shurtugal, we've concluded that hasty is by far the best nature for cube because of its special-sponging prowess. however, i will set details mention naive for that genesect scenario you brought up.
running enough speed for mega chomp is a great idea; it would only require 4 more evs. however, i'm just going to change cb and both mixed sets to max speed so you at least tie other cubes. it's a 20 ev difference, and 100% worth it imo. sub will stay at 236.
i have ac mentioned freeze shock on cb.
i was aware of the ev spread issue, and have made the change now. thanks. i also adjusted the evs on bulky a little bit as per smb's suggestion and moved dclaw to the first slash over dragon tail.
shurtugal, we've concluded that hasty is by far the best nature for cube because of its special-sponging prowess. however, i will set details mention naive for that genesect scenario you brought up.
running enough speed for mega chomp is a great idea; it would only require 4 more evs. however, i'm just going to change cb and both mixed sets to max speed so you at least tie other cubes. it's a 20 ev difference, and 100% worth it imo. sub will stay at 236.
i have ac mentioned freeze shock on cb.
Specially based mixed attacker attack evs don't do what they say they do.
100 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
To always OHKO252 Hp Azumarill, 196 attack evs are needed. It needs 148 to always OHKO the approved spread of 212 Hp Azumarill.
And it needs 0 attack evs to always ohko 252/0 Azumarill after Stealth Rock damage with Fusion Bolt when it is using a neutral attack nature.
100 Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Azumarill: 382-450 (94.5 - 111.3%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
To always OHKO252 Hp Azumarill, 196 attack evs are needed. It needs 148 to always OHKO the approved spread of 212 Hp Azumarill.
And it needs 0 attack evs to always ohko 252/0 Azumarill after Stealth Rock damage with Fusion Bolt when it is using a neutral attack nature.
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Ash Borer
I've heard they're short of room in hell
hmm, I could have sworn I ran the calc for max hp azumarill. Incidentally, it OHKOs azumarill with 164 hp EVs, a spread with 92 speed that which lets it outspeed min aegis by like 2 points.
Yes, the attack EVs are misplaced on the specially biased mix attacker. 108 has a 99% chance to 2hko Sdef Clefable, thats the only thing around 100 I see is useful.
Yes, the attack EVs are misplaced on the specially biased mix attacker. 108 has a 99% chance to 2hko Sdef Clefable, thats the only thing around 100 I see is useful.
Mentions of Florges should be removed, cos Sylveon's better.
wtf is togekiss doing in c&c; it gets boned by ice beam and fusion bolt.
You should stress physically defensive Sylveon as the best counter to Kyurem-B there is. It walls the Sub, physically mixed, and specially mixed sets, and only gets 2HKOed by CB Fusion Bolt.
Togekiss, Mega Mawile, and Azumarill are really bad checks, as they get demolished by Kyu-B' best set, the Sub one. In general, you should focus in stressing the checks and counters to the Sub set, and then on any other set. Any Pokemon that fares well against the Sub set is a Pokemon that can keep your team safe against Kyu-B most of the time.
Merge physically based mixed and CB, they play identical aside from the ability to change moves.
As SMB said, remove the utility check Kyu-B set, it is not worth of a main set.
Also, i think that you should either slash Roost with Sub on the first set, or just mention it in set details. It plays very similar to the sub set, trading the ability to scout switches with the ability to heal itself. I am not 100% opposed to it getting a main set, but i just think that the two sets play really similar.
So, after all those changes, there should be only three sets:
- Sub (/Roost) + 3 attacks
- Physical
- Scarf
I am not sure about Scarf as i haven't tried it, but it may still have merit as a cleaner on DragMag teams. Its huge physical bulk also helps it take physical priority not named Bullet Punch really well. We need to test this.
Togekiss, Mega Mawile, and Azumarill are really bad checks, as they get demolished by Kyu-B' best set, the Sub one. In general, you should focus in stressing the checks and counters to the Sub set, and then on any other set. Any Pokemon that fares well against the Sub set is a Pokemon that can keep your team safe against Kyu-B most of the time.
Merge physically based mixed and CB, they play identical aside from the ability to change moves.
As SMB said, remove the utility check Kyu-B set, it is not worth of a main set.
Also, i think that you should either slash Roost with Sub on the first set, or just mention it in set details. It plays very similar to the sub set, trading the ability to scout switches with the ability to heal itself. I am not 100% opposed to it getting a main set, but i just think that the two sets play really similar.
So, after all those changes, there should be only three sets:
- Sub (/Roost) + 3 attacks
- Physical
- Scarf
I am not sure about Scarf as i haven't tried it, but it may still have merit as a cleaner on DragMag teams. Its huge physical bulk also helps it take physical priority not named Bullet Punch really well. We need to test this.
SMB agreed that the utility set could stay with the changes I made. It is an excellent way to handle various things with the specially defensive investment, and has the Speed it needs to outrun stuff, too.
Choice Band and Physical Mixed do not play the same. Switching moves, for one, is a massive difference. Physical Mixed is also utilizing special attacks way more, as well, with both Ice Beam and Earth Power. Also, Physical Mixed isn't as reliant on Outrage -- CB's biggest fault is relying so much on Outrage, making it easily revenge killed after it gets one kill. Physical Mixed is better at getting multiple kills against the typical team.
There is already a special mixed set with Roost and a Life Orb. I don't think Roost needs to be slashed.
I just lumped Fairies together and listed them out, I'll remove those three. I will also mention physically defensive Sylveon.
Choice Band and Physical Mixed do not play the same. Switching moves, for one, is a massive difference. Physical Mixed is also utilizing special attacks way more, as well, with both Ice Beam and Earth Power. Also, Physical Mixed isn't as reliant on Outrage -- CB's biggest fault is relying so much on Outrage, making it easily revenge killed after it gets one kill. Physical Mixed is better at getting multiple kills against the typical team.
There is already a special mixed set with Roost and a Life Orb. I don't think Roost needs to be slashed.
I just lumped Fairies together and listed them out, I'll remove those three. I will also mention physically defensive Sylveon.
If SMB agreed to keep the Utility check set then it's fine with me as well. Regarding CB and physically mixed, the ability to change moves is not enough to warrant different sets. There are plenty of Pokemon that have LO and CB slashed on the same set. As for the mixed set's reliance on special attacks and Outrage, this is something that you just made like this. Physical mixed is just fine with Outrage / Dragon Claw / Fusion Bolt / Ice Beam, as Fusion Bolt already 2HKOes Heatran. Whether you want Earth Power or not is entirely a matter of your team wanting Heatran out of the way asap, and having a reliable attack that doesn't lock you in vs Rotom-W (only for 1 v 1 scenarios, as Dragon Claw already 2HKOes even 252 / 252+ Rotom-W). The two sets can easily be merged to this:
Physical Attacker
########
name: Physical Attacker
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Fusion Bolt
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Dragon Claw / Earth Power
item: Life Orb / Choice Band
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Hasty / Lonely
Physical Attacker
########
name: Physical Attacker
move 1: Outrage
move 2: Fusion Bolt
move 3: Ice Beam
move 4: Dragon Claw / Earth Power
item: Life Orb / Choice Band
evs: 252 Atk / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Hasty / Lonely
Earth Power does more than that. It hits Aegislash, Volcarona, Mega Mawile, Bisharp, Klefki, and Jirachi. But, CB would hate to be locked into it. Dragon Claw is straight up inferior on CB.
Life Orb is a general purpose wallbreaker/attacker that can come in multiple times and smack around opposing Pokemon. CB usually kills 1-2 Pokemon, and it does that with remarkable ease. The two sets work differently in practice. By this logic, you could combine Sub with special mixed, but nobody's pushing for that.
Life Orb is a general purpose wallbreaker/attacker that can come in multiple times and smack around opposing Pokemon. CB usually kills 1-2 Pokemon, and it does that with remarkable ease. The two sets work differently in practice. By this logic, you could combine Sub with special mixed, but nobody's pushing for that.
I just pushed for specially mixed and Sub to be merged, but i can see why they wouldn't as having Sub or Roost makes them somewhat different on playstyle. As for your examples of Earth Power's usefulness, none of them is particularly relevant, as every one of those Pokemon is 2HKOed by Fusion Bolt anyway, or takes more or less the same damage from Fusion Bolt. For example, vs Aegislash:
- 252+ Atk Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Fusion Bolt vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Aegislash-Shield: 134-159 (41.3 - 49%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
- 4 SpA Life Orb Teravolt Kyurem-B Earth Power vs. 252 HP / 4 SpD Aegislash-Shield: 140-166 (43.2 - 51.2%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Leftovers recovery
there's also another way to put it: physical mixed is a mixed attacker, and cb is a physical attacker. they are fundamentally different. keldeo, for example, does not change that dramatically based on the difference between lo and specs. this is why they are different and deserve separate sets.
But the set doesn't changed dramatically as i mentioned multiple times already. Earth Power is not a must and in fact Dragon Claw is the superior option even on the LO set for the last slot, giving you a strong STAB when you don't want to lock yourself into Outrage. Earth Power is just a luxury on the physical attacker. And it's not like by using Earth Power you are changing your spread or your nature, so only the move changes, exactly as what happens with Specs / LO Keldeo (where HP Flying is better with Specs but HP Psychic is better with LO). With LO you just have the extra option to use Earth Power that's all.
Also, if you want to get technical, both sets are mixed attackers as both use Ice Beam.
Also, if you want to get technical, both sets are mixed attackers as both use Ice Beam.
If you think about it, every single Kyurem-B set is a wallbreaker. They all run pretty similar moves -- they just use different means to get to that end. Technically if you want you could have three Kyurem-B sets as you said -- special attacker, physical attacker, and utility check -- but that wouldn't cover the whole story. The difference between Kyurem-B sets is all nuance, minor differences here and there -- hell physical isn't even that different from special. The question that arises when you have such similar sets is where to separate them and allow for this nuance.
We've agreed to disagree on Earth Power being compulsory on LO (over IRC) -- I'll just assume that it's mandatory. That's one difference between the sets. Also, there's a nature difference. But, neither of those are really huge, and I see exactly what you're getting at when you're saying both could easily be covered by a slash.
The major difference is that LO has special attacking prowess, whilst CB does not. Yes, both wallbreak, but LO utilizes special coverage to do so in addition to its physical hard-hitting attacks. Ice Beam is basically filler on CB -- it doesn't really count as a mixed attacker. There's nothing else remotely useful in Kyurem-B's movepool, so it runs Ice Beam. You'll use it once in a blue moon, while Life Orb will use it liberally, as it easily fells foes such as Trevenant, Celebi, and Mega Venusaur. Earth Power provides another dimension of coverage, and helps against Rotom-W, Heatran, and Bisharp. What can they do when you 2HKO with Fusion Bolt? First of all, if you've already killed something, they can burn you. About burn: CB is way more crippled by it than LO. Yes, LO doesn't want to get burned, but it's not the end of the world if it does, as it still has Ice Beam and Earth Power to fall back on. CB meanwhile is entirely crippled by a burn -- made useless. This is another fundamental difference between the two. CB is pretty much 100% physical (as in you'll be using physical moves almost always), while LO is truly mixed.
Also, with the ability to switch moves, LO is able to take out an array of threats more easily. CB meanwhile is reliant on Outrage to guarantee it takes out the opposing Pokemon, and against Fairy-types can't even do that much. Dragon Claw and Fusion Bolt simply aren't strong enough to smash apart resists like Outrage can. With its coverage and ability to switch moves, LO can just pick the appropriate coverage move instead of resorting to Outrage in many cases. Fundamental difference #3.
It's also easier to force out CB Kyurem-B. If a good resist/immunity to an attack switches in, it must switch out. Meanwhile, with LO, you can switch to the appropriate attack and murder the foe. CB cannot boast this versatility in move selection. Fundamental difference #4.
This is not to say CB Kyurem-B is a pile of garbage. Its physical power is absolutely ridiculous. If you want something dead ASAP, CB Kyurem-B is your man. It's just that powerful. But, it's not like LO for the reasons I've mentioned.
I've mention four fundamental differences. If you look at the bigger picture, yes, both are wallbreakers and are EV'd to attack physically. They run similar moves bar the one in the last slot, and the natures can be slashed together. But, as I've stated, LO Kyurem-B is different in various crucial aspects from CB. It's not like Keldeo. CB Kyurem-B is trading the ability to attack specially and utilize its excellent coverage to the fullest extent, whereas Keldeo just trades the ability to switch moves. CB Kyurem-B is also utilizing a lock-in move as its big puncher STAB; Keldeo is not. Keldeo can just switch out should a situation go awry, but Kyurem-B does not have that luxury when it inevitably uses Outrage to nab a kill it needs. The scenarios are different.
We've agreed to disagree on Earth Power being compulsory on LO (over IRC) -- I'll just assume that it's mandatory. That's one difference between the sets. Also, there's a nature difference. But, neither of those are really huge, and I see exactly what you're getting at when you're saying both could easily be covered by a slash.
The major difference is that LO has special attacking prowess, whilst CB does not. Yes, both wallbreak, but LO utilizes special coverage to do so in addition to its physical hard-hitting attacks. Ice Beam is basically filler on CB -- it doesn't really count as a mixed attacker. There's nothing else remotely useful in Kyurem-B's movepool, so it runs Ice Beam. You'll use it once in a blue moon, while Life Orb will use it liberally, as it easily fells foes such as Trevenant, Celebi, and Mega Venusaur. Earth Power provides another dimension of coverage, and helps against Rotom-W, Heatran, and Bisharp. What can they do when you 2HKO with Fusion Bolt? First of all, if you've already killed something, they can burn you. About burn: CB is way more crippled by it than LO. Yes, LO doesn't want to get burned, but it's not the end of the world if it does, as it still has Ice Beam and Earth Power to fall back on. CB meanwhile is entirely crippled by a burn -- made useless. This is another fundamental difference between the two. CB is pretty much 100% physical (as in you'll be using physical moves almost always), while LO is truly mixed.
Also, with the ability to switch moves, LO is able to take out an array of threats more easily. CB meanwhile is reliant on Outrage to guarantee it takes out the opposing Pokemon, and against Fairy-types can't even do that much. Dragon Claw and Fusion Bolt simply aren't strong enough to smash apart resists like Outrage can. With its coverage and ability to switch moves, LO can just pick the appropriate coverage move instead of resorting to Outrage in many cases. Fundamental difference #3.
It's also easier to force out CB Kyurem-B. If a good resist/immunity to an attack switches in, it must switch out. Meanwhile, with LO, you can switch to the appropriate attack and murder the foe. CB cannot boast this versatility in move selection. Fundamental difference #4.
This is not to say CB Kyurem-B is a pile of garbage. Its physical power is absolutely ridiculous. If you want something dead ASAP, CB Kyurem-B is your man. It's just that powerful. But, it's not like LO for the reasons I've mentioned.
I've mention four fundamental differences. If you look at the bigger picture, yes, both are wallbreakers and are EV'd to attack physically. They run similar moves bar the one in the last slot, and the natures can be slashed together. But, as I've stated, LO Kyurem-B is different in various crucial aspects from CB. It's not like Keldeo. CB Kyurem-B is trading the ability to attack specially and utilize its excellent coverage to the fullest extent, whereas Keldeo just trades the ability to switch moves. CB Kyurem-B is also utilizing a lock-in move as its big puncher STAB; Keldeo is not. Keldeo can just switch out should a situation go awry, but Kyurem-B does not have that luxury when it inevitably uses Outrage to nab a kill it needs. The scenarios are different.