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Kyurem-Bastard

Discussion in 'BW OU Teams' started by Eggbert, Jan 16, 2013.

  1. Eggbert

    Eggbert

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076
    [​IMG]



    If there's one thing thats guaranteed in BW2, it's Politoed. I wanted to make a team that would take advantage of how generic the teams are but also be challenging, so I tried the full stall route and then Drag mag with anti-rain measures like Kingdra. The problem was that it was just so disadvantaged from the start of the match against rain and sun that there was no point in trying anything but rain being full competitive. Then I tried some cool movesets and got this.While this team isn't rain, it remains fun and refreshing to use and can be very annoying to play against. It isn't fully solid against everything and has some glaring weaknesses like ferrothorn/spikes, but it is meant to be different, anti-metagame, fun, and still able to win a lot. It has many variations that be adjusted to defend better against certain threats. As for Kyurem… Initially I thought Kyurem-b was lame, since having 170 atk doesn't matter if you are so easy to revenge and weak to SR, but there was another set that brought life back into a defensive team…

    ---

    The Team

    [​IMG]

    Hippowdon @ Leftovers
    Impish Nature
    252 Hp / 4 Atk / 252 SDef
    - Earthquake
    - Ice Fang
    - Stealth Rock
    - Slack Off

    ---

    If I wasn't using Politoed I was going to use Hippo. Fortunately, it's great with the right support. Slack off gives it great recovery and great bulk lets it take on threats like Terrakion, Tyranitar, Lucario, Garchomp, Dragonite, Toxicroak (which everyone should use because it 6-0s rain...), and similar. Earthquake and slack off are mandatory, while ice fang is needed to beat 4x dragons. Hippo is the most convenient mon with stealth rocks but they can be moved to Jirachi since they can be difficult to set up against waters. Physically defensive gets the nod over specially defensive because it is easier to find better special walls and a physical wall is needed badly on this team. Sand is crucial now. No point in letting rain teams have the free hurricane Tornadus, rain dish Tentacruel, hydration Vaporeon, and other assorted bullshit. Hippo picks up the slack and supports the team well with stealth rock and by "neutralizing" rain.

    ---


    [​IMG]

    Celebi @ Leftovers
    Calm Nature
    252 Hp / 224 SpDef / 36 Spe
    - U-Turn
    - Psychic
    - Heal Bell
    - Recover


    ---

    When I started with Kyurem and wanted to add a defensive core, I decided to try the fungus amoonguss and was very much impressed. However Celebi is the true bulky grass of OU. It loses spore but doesn't care about scald, which stops the fungus from walling anything in sand. Celebi with a Tornadus counter is the bane of rain teams. They can't hurt it and it walls all of the usual sweepers. Celebi is surprisingly impossible to take down and can wall even Latios and assorted mixed dragons with ease. Water mons like Keldeo, Starmie, Politoed, shouldn't even try. Breloom is walled and taken out easily. I've tried roserade in this spot as well, but it can't really take on Keldeo and Poli well at all due to less bulk and crappy defense that secret sword beats. I use perish song for reuniclus and baton pass. Giga drain doesn't do much damage, but is a consistent option. Recover is essential. Conk hurts this team badly if I don't run psychic, but HP fire stops the steels for spiking all over the place, so it can be run over perish song, psychic, or even giga drain as it makes ferrothorn much easier to wear down. Overall, Celebi is the better wall, but Amoonguss should be used if toxic spikes start becoming more common, as they destroy this team but are rare now.

    ---

    [​IMG]

    Jirachi @ Leftovers
    Careful Nature
    252 Hp / 252 SpDef / 4 Def
    - Iron Head
    - Body Slam
    - Fire Punch
    - Wish

    ---

    It gets the rap for hax, but is really one of the most solid pokemon in the game. Not much will be OHKOing it, and not much wants to take a body slam. Any team, from stall to offense, wants a Jirachi on it. Very few things that threaten it are switching in, and it will win against much of OU with its paralysis antics. On this team, Jirachi spreads some para to make Kyurem's life a lot easier for setup and maximum annoyance. Wish keeps it alive for a long time and can be passed to heal team members. Tornadus is walled barring repeated confusion and para fails, which people can get sometimes :(. Fire punch deters ferrothorn and magnezone, but protect is here until torn t gets banned for survivability. Gengar is an ass to defensive teams that choose Blissey, but Jirachi has little problems against it. Even on stallier teams, Jirachi is doing better than the blobs, that's right, as a special wall thanks to its typing and attacking options. This very set has been constant for Jirachi since the beginning of BW1, and with a very good reason. It's just really good.

    ---

    [​IMG]

    Suicune @ Leftovers
    Bold Nature
    252 Hp / 252 Def / 4 SpDef
    - Calm Mind
    - Scald
    - Sleep Talk
    - Rest

    ---

    This dog isn't UU. It can't be. In the bulky water slot I have run Jelli which is mediocre and vulnerable to toxic, and rest talk Gyarados which is amazing but weak to SR. But Suicune is on another level. Basically, no one is prepared for this and it sweeps teams easily. It doesn't go down, ever, either. Suicune starts the game off by switching in on the many things it utterly walls and fires off scalds to spread the burn. Ie, once Ferrothorn is burned it can't even 4HKO me. Burned physical attackers are a joke, and the burn also supports setup for other team members. Suicune's defenses are unreal. Sun teams are in trouble once Venusaur is worn down by burn and LO, as long as it doesn't connect with a SE giga drain it will be worn quickly and the rest are promptly walled. Victini's CB fusion bolt only does half. Running roar over CM with hazards turns this into the #1 asshole because it is so difficult to bring down. However, it's not all perfect. A lot of the time it boils down to sleep talk selecting scald or cm instead of rest once in a million times, and the mono water coverage leaves me fodder for lum dragonite, toxicroak, and jellicent. Gyarados covers the threats I am weak to better, namely Lucario, Toxicroak, and Volcarona, but this is a fun team and barring rare threats Suicune is awesome to use. Gyarados is still awesome though and can be run in this slot.

    ---

    [​IMG]

    Forretress @ Leftovers
    Relaxed Nature
    252 Hp / 120 Def / 100 SpDef / 36 SpA (2 Spe IV)
    - Gyro Ball
    - Hidden Power [Ice]
    - Spikes
    - Rapid Spin

    ---

    OU in every gen, Forretress is one of the few that can spike and rapid spin. My team is weak to spikes since everyone is hit by them, making rapid spin even more essential. Sucks that the cool mons are grounded. With its insane bulk, it can tank outrages and use hp ice to fight Dragonite, Gliscor, and Salamence. Forry is also designated fodder against enemy cube and has gyro ball to keep it at bay. I added Forretress to spin against Ferrothorn, which can easily setup against this team. Forretress is very weak to special attackers, which is okay because of how good Jirachi and Celebi are. Spikes go along way with phazing and rapid spin is always essential on defensive teams. Fortunately spin blockers are rare nowadays, since the OU ghosts aren't really that good anymore. EVs give balanced defenses since it already has 140 def, ect ect.

    ---

    [​IMG]

    Kyurem Black @ Leftovers
    Careful Nature
    252 hp / 64 Def / 136 SpD / 40 Spe
    - Hone Claws
    - Substitute
    - Dragon Tail
    - Roost

    ---

    Cube is one of the best "sweepers" in OU. With insane bulk, scalds and other weak special attacks aren't breaking its sub, making Tentacruel, Politoed, and other weak mons setup. Kyurem's typing, at least the dragon part, is excellent for walling electric, water, and grass. Hone claws stops dragon tail from missing and can really rack up the damage making people pull out their cubic hairs in rage. Even with just stealth rock up, the damage accumulates quickly because dragon tail hurts unlike roar. Opponents will have to end up sacrificing something to a dragon tail to break my sub once this gets going. It's swept through so many teams by nature of offense and defense. Offensive mons that can KO it usually can't take a dragon tail, and defensive mons can't hurt me. If I avoid status, Kyurem finds itself tearing through teams and costing my opponent crucial sweepers that they need to take down my walls. Paralysis makes this even more fun. Often I manage to get Kyurem in against something that can't hurt it, ie Politoed which is on every team. If they go to something that can break my sub, like Tornadus, they are going to take a lot of damage and the offensive pressure against my team is lessened. It's also likely they will be phazed to something that can't hurt me, continuing the process. The tricky part is getting the opportunity, but Kyurem can destroy all kinds of teams given the chance.

    ----

    Possible Changes:

    - Water slot up for grabs between Suicune / Jellicent / Gyarados / Slowbro.
    - Heal bell / U-turn / coverage on Celebi
    - Hippodon's spread + it's defensive synergy with water slot in covering threats.

    Updates:
    - Changed Celebi's moveset to U-turn / Psychic / Heal Bell / Recover
    - Jellicent > Suicune (leaving the suicune description in though...)
    - EV changes to Hippo, also added fire punch to rachi in addition to Kyurem and Fort changes.
  2. Takion

    Takion

    Joined:
    Dec 7, 2012
    Messages:
    141
    Hey bro!

    Sweet stall team you got, my only suggestion is that you take the 56 Spe EV and place it in either Attack or Defense. The reason being that Dragon Tail has negative priority!

    Its all I can give for now, have to head off!
  3. Kidogo

    Kidogo

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2012
    Messages:
    462
    Hey eggbert, I'm glad to see a sand stall team as rain offense has really been the primary type of team we've been seeing lately. This looks pretty solid, I do see a few weaknesses and have a few suggestions.

    First off, you mentioned in your discussion of the bulky water that jellicent was discarded because of its weakness to status. While this is true, having it on the team gives you a spinblocker, something with reliable recovery, and a more reliable means of inflicting status, so I'd definitely support suicune --> jellicent. A good set would be:
    Show Hide
    Jellicent @ Leftovers
    Trait: Water Absorb
    248 HP / 216 Def / 44 Spe
    Bold Nature
    - Taunt
    - Recover
    - Will-o-Wisp
    - Scald / Shadow Ball

    This is a really cool set that should help your team a lot. It provides the same defensive bulky water presence as suicune, while exchanging a little bulk for the ability to spinblock, reliable recovery, and some much better utility moves in WoW and taunt. Having a spinblocker should really help kyub sweep as well, since that set loves having hazards on the opp's side of the field, and a spinblocker helps guarantee they'll stay there.

    What about jellicent's weakness to status though, you ask?
    One strength of this team is that most of the mons have reliable recovery, meaning the opponent will be hard-pressed to wear you down. However, you're very weak to status, which could prove very problematic for the team in longer games. As a solution, why not try Heal Bell on celebi? It's a perfect user of it as it gets plenty of opportunities to switch in (especially vs. rain teams, which inflict burns all over the place with scald), and I think it could fit it onto the set. Recover is a must, and psychic is super valuable for checking fighting types while giga drain helps vs rain teams. I'd probably say Heal Bell > giga or psong / hp fire since you're already well-prepared for rain teams, while hp fire doesn't seem too too necessary. Psong is a good option though imo since you seem quite weak to last mon set-uppers (for example, last mon subDDnite could p much 6-0), so the set I'd run would be Psong / Heal Bell / Recover / Psychic. This makes jelli much more viable, which gives you a spinblocker and a bulky water with more reliable recovery.

    Other than those comments, this team looks pretty darn solid. I'd suggest bumping rachi's speed EVs up to 20, to outspeed adamant breloom by 2 points, which is especially useful since a ton of stuff aims to beat it by 1 point. The only other thing i notice is that you're pretty weak to dragmag, since both rachi and forry are very easily trapped by magnezone--maybe consider changing one to shed shell? Forry kinda need the lefties since no recovery otherwise, but maybe rachi could go shed shell? Also, something like DD / outrage / eq / fblast moxiemence looks like it could be problematic. Definitely a threat, but hippo can probably take it.

    Overall, very solid team and nice to see something a bit different from the norm. Hope my suggestions helped!
  4. Trinitrotoluene

    Trinitrotoluene ♫~ i don't want to know what she did; she is not who i am ~♫
    is a Tutoris a Community Contributoris a Team Rater Alumnus
    Mentor

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    Messages:
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    Hey. Solid team. You should probably run a Relaxed nature on Forretress, to ensure that you that you have as low a Speed stat as possible, giving Gyro Ball a marginal increase in power. In addition, I think an EV spread of 252 HP / 64 Def / 136 SpD / 56 Spe would do your Kyurem-B more good. You're not losing much in terms of special bulk, and in return, the given EVs guarantee that your Kyurem-B will never be OHKOed by a Secret Sword from Timid Choice Specs Keldeo, while maintaining enough bulk to assure that defensive Heatran won't be breaking its subs with Lava Plume. You also maintain enough speed to outrun max speed Modest Politoed and Adamant Breloom, something that Kyurem-B will appreciate.

    For nitpicks, Kidogo's suggestion of Heal Bell over Hidden Power Fire is very solid, seeing that most of your team does not like status. Now, I like Suicune, and I think that it is a solid Pokemon, but I don't think that it's the Pokemon your team needs. After all, you have Kyurem-B as a set-up sweeper. Bulky Support Gyarados seems like a much better choice for your team, since it can switch into the multitude of Fighters (sans Breloom, which you have Celebi for, and SubSD Terrakion, which Hippowdon can easily neuter) and physically-based Water-types, thanks to Intimidate. Its access to Thunder Wave is appreciated by the rest of your team, which is incredibly slow, and you already use Jirachi to induce paralysis. Gyarados makes for a great back-up paralysis inducer and pHazer, should you not be able to use Kyurem-B. Speaking of Kyurem-B, it appreciates paralysis support, something which Gyarados supplies easily. Also, if you do use my Gyarados suggestion, the Celebi suggestion works wonders with it, easily eliminating its status problem. A summarized list of changes can be found below.

    Set:
    [​IMG]
    Gyarados @ Leftovers | Intimidate
    Impish | 248 HP / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    Thunder Wave | Dragon Tail | Taunt | Waterfall


    Nitpicks:
    • [​IMG] ----> [​IMG]
    • [​IMG]
      • Bold Nature ----> Relaxed Nature
    • [​IMG]
      • 252 HP / 200 SpD / 56 Spe ----> 252 HP / 64 Def / 136 SpD / 40 Spe
    • [​IMG]
      • Hidden Power Fire ----> Heal Bell

    Overall, this is a solid team. Good luck with it, and Luvdisc'd.

    Placeholder for rate in Latin (open)
  5. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

    Joined:
    Oct 9, 2012
    Messages:
    565
    Hey,

    you already did a good job because this team has nice sinergy so props for that! i also like that kyu-b set, is very fun to use.
    The only thing i would change here is Suicune. The reason is simple, you just need more fighting resistors to counter better the pletora of fighing types in this tier, celebi just isnt enough to stop everything. Also, while its true that suicune pretty much can 6-0 rain stall teams, is not that effective in this metagame full of offense, because rest sucks now, and scald itself will leave you as a setup fodder for too much things.

    What i think you can try, other than the things the other raters already mentioned, is slowbro. Slowbro has a few advantage over Gyarados and jellicent, which is the trait mainly. Regenerator will help you checking fighting types, phisical dragons and water pokemon, so that you can switch on these pokemon, check the move and switch to something else, without the risk to die due to sr damage. If you do this change and you feel like statuses are problematic, then heal bell celebi is the way to go. I wouldnt put it over hidden power fire, because it makes you weaker to scizor, but over psichic, considering that slowbro already stops the majority of the fightings in ou. Also, if you do this change, i think you can as well put Roar over ice fang on hippowdown, since you dont need ice fang anymore to hit Dragonites, and roar helps you pahzing things and its less setup fodder in general. Well, thats all i guess, gl and hope i helped!

    Show Hide
    [​IMG]Slowbro (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spd
    Bold Nature (+Def, -Atk)
    - Scald
    - Psychic
    - Ice Beam
    - Slack Off

    [​IMG]Psichic--> Heal bell

    [​IMG]Ice fang--> Roar
  6. BKC

    BKC
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Smogon IRC AOPis a Forum Moderatoris a Smogon Media Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis the Smogon Tour Season 16 Championis a World Cup of Pokemon defending champion
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    hippo wants an impish max hp/max sdef spread. its really good in general, i.e. it means hippo doesnt get murdered by every special attack on the planet, but the main reason im suggesting it is b/c sub hydreigon really messes you up with dragon pulse/fire blast. your best check is cune who has to rely on restalk for recovery. hippos def is plenty high with just an impish nature, and the sdef lets it beat hydre easily 1-on-1. it can also do very cool things such as live specs latios draco meteor and check volcarona in a pinch.

    while i like jellicent in the bulky water slot b/c it covers what gyara covers [luke croak volc] while spinblocking and not being sr weak, i really like the use of suicune...while the lack of reliable recovery is kinda offputting, i might have to try it myself lol

    great team, good to see youre back, i missed you =]

    luvdisc
  7. Livio

    Livio

    Joined:
    May 15, 2012
    Messages:
    221
    Hey Dude, interesting choice to use Kyurem-B in a stall, i used him under rain but.. i never seen a stall with him under sand weather. The team is pretty good and have not much troubles, but, like ever i have some advice to give you so, let s rate it!

    First off, as i can see you re a bit weak to SheerLando+ Pursuitter (Such as BandTytar) core, wich is always more used from the moment his most famous check are Psychic Types. But Celebi has an advantage that below we will see; another problem is the lack of a good pseudo haze move, your only are Dragon Tail on Kyurem-B, but most common Booster sweepers have a good way to hit him, and more of time is HOKO (for example Bpunch of Scizor, or a common DDnite/DDSalamence) and sometimes misses too and other is Perish Song, that work after 3 turns, a real trouble.

    So these are my suggestions:

    • First of all, I d suggest you to give U-Turn/Baton Pass>Psychic ( I prefer the second because is more safe), Psychic just attracts common dark types pokemon. With Baton Pass you have a good move to escape without risks to Scizor/TyranitarBand, and give you free setupp with your steel (in this case Forretress) or with Hippo if you didn t do it yet, furthermore, in combo with Perish Song is a great way to recover momentum, from the moment it allows you to scout opponents pokemon sent out, fundamental to win especially in a stall team. With this simple change, you loosen the eventual pression of special move against Jirachi a time defeated your Celebi, that because Celebi more than SpecialWall is your only status absorber, and can enter on Rotom-W or Jellicent without fear of an eventual random burn (Suicune can t enter on Jellicent or Rotom-w because has not way to hit the first and the second has Volt-Switch)

    • Well, now your problem is the lack of a good Phaze move, you could use Whirlwind>Ice Fang, the reason is pretty simple, Tornadus-T will be probabily banned, Ice Fang is not too useful against dragons and Landorus(-T) that you can check easily with Celebi/Forretress (you have not switch onto Dragonite for example, and Ice Fang against eventual leftovers set probabily lost 1vs1). But Youre not forced to change if you don t want, another option is replace Roar/Haze instead of Calm Mind on Suicune, you really don t need CM in your set, because you have only a move and could be easily checked by commons Water Absorb or Dry Skin Toxicroak, that have free setupp on him. Roar can help you to shuffle the opponent team on the entry hazards, from the moment you have not a Spin-Blocker and shuffling is a good way to do indirect damages (eventual on a switch in of the opponent spinner, for example Starmie or Tentacruel could be good switch onto him).

    • Last thing i suggest you is to change Kyurem instead of Kyurem-B, the reason is simple, the Trait. With Kyurem you have more possibility to PP stall eventually Steels such as Bronzong or Ferrothorn thanks to SoobRoost + Pressure, moreover you should try a Special Set, for example the common Ice Beam + Earth Power, so you have something more against above steels or against Skarmory/Heatran that have a free way to setupp Entry Hazard and do a lot pressure on your Forretress (your mainly Wall against Physical Dragons). Anyway you only need of 52HP to don t break your substitute against Night Shade/Seismic Toss, so you have free 200Evs to move onto Atk/SAtk to do a bit more offensive.



    Hope I helped you dude, good luck with your team

    Tl;dr

    Show Hide
    [​IMG] Baton Pass/U-Turn> Psichic

    [​IMG] Roar/Haze>Calm Mind

    [​IMG]

    Kyurem @ Leftovers
    Trait: Pressure
    EVs: 52 HP / 232 SAtk / 224 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Earth Power
    - Ice Beam
    - Roost
    - Substitute
  8. Eggbert

    Eggbert

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076
    Cube actually needs the 56 spe (and maybe a tad bit more) so it can sub against tentacruel and random mons in the 240s range before it gets scalded. Thanks for posting though!

    Heal bell sounds excellent on Celebi because scalds are very annoying to Kyurem and it could wake suicune up quickly. As for Jellicent, it is probably 100-200x better with heal bell support, which could go over psychic because jelli walls conk. Definitely makes jelli a viable contender in the water spot, so I think that change would be able to boost this team since anything with starmie pretty much gets free rapid spins.

    As for rachi, I usually add a few points in there to keep up with the breloom creep. Magnezone does indeed get some free kills if I'm careless. I'm hoping that torn t gets banned soon so I can run fire punch to fend it off. As for fort, shed shell really hurts its ability to set up, so I would run volt switch again if anything though gyro is more effective in general. Thanks for post!

    Yea it should be relaxed I forgot to switch it from when I used volt switch. Those kyurem Evs look solid as well. Gyarados was amazing on this team because it is the best against lucario and volcarona, though I did not use the support version. The main reason I stopped using gyara was that my team was very crippled by stealth rocks with 2 weak to them if I could not spin them, but it works really well. The t-wave set looks cool though I'm worried about its survivability, I'll give it a go. Thanks for the rate!

    Wow I never even thought of using slowbro, and I agree I probably will end up needing a bulky water that beats fighters. I think it would work well with spD hippo since it can take on dragons and lessen the need for ice fang, I'm just worried it makes me too weak to volcarona / scizor. Either way, I'll definitely consider it when I test/tweak the team and thanks for the rate!

    SpD hippo sounds like a good idea since volc is annoying and that hydreigon is indeed deadly. I will definitely need a fighting resist water since terrak can hurt it now. Poor suicune. Be sure to give suicune a chance, rest talk isn't that bad. missed u 2.

    Sheer force lando is really dangerous for teams like this, and I know that u-turn (baton pass sounds interesting though) is a valid option, it is just a matter of the moveslot but is a good option to consider when I change celebi.

    As of now, I can't replace ice fang but roar is beastly on suicune and is another good option because dragon tail can be unreliable. As for Kyurem I personally like the sub roost with ice beam / earth power set but I think Kyurem black is stronger on this team because of the hazards and dragon tail. Thanks for the rate!
  9. Eggbert

    Eggbert

    Joined:
    Oct 30, 2009
    Messages:
    1,076
    This thread isn't too old, so updating with some changes:

    - Jellicent > Suicune

    Jellicent @ Leftovers
    Bold Nature
    248 Hp / 252 Def / 8 Spe
    - Taunt
    - Shadow Ball / Night Shade
    - Will-o-Wisp
    - Recover

    Description: Jellicent makes the dragon tail game more reliable since it can easily block enemy fort, donphan, LO thunder-less starmie, and toxic-less tentacruel. It also frees up space on celebi since it can beat the rare reuniclus with shadow ball and taunt. Taunt + wow is a win condition and shadow ball 2HKOs starmie to stop it in its tracks. Night shade is useful so I can actually damage heatran and volcarona. It's a toss up. Jellicent doesn't have suicune's stats, but its movepool and typing give it an edge. It can beat blissey / chansey easily 1v1, cover SD toxicroak well, and sponge u-turns better than suicune if need be. Speed creep is not included here.

    Celebi: U-turn / Psychic / Heal Bell / Recover. U-turn is really cool on celebi since it forces many switches and has nothing to really hit them with or gain momentum with it. Giga drain really doesn't hurt waters anyway, except gastrodon which jelli and kyurem beat. Psychic helps alot against fighters like conk though conk is rare it can sweep me if I don't run psychic. u-turn can still hit starmie hard, and heal bell is the best for erasing scald burns on kyurem and toxic on jelli. Jelli's win condition takes away some of the need for perish song, though baton teams are more dangerous now.

    Current problems: team is synergistically weak to fire types. Giga drain volcarona is a problem and sun teams are difficult at times.
    Heatran > Jirachi possibly to fix this, since heatran counters itself with earth power, and destroys most volc with toxic + roar

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