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Kyurem (QC 3/3) (GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by jc104, Jul 11, 2012.

  1. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Kyurem (links to the old analysis)



    [​IMG]

    [Overview]

    <p>Ever since its introduction, Kyurem has been a pretty rare sight in OU, and looking at its stats, it's not exactly clear why; these stats are absolutely on par with those of the many Uber legendaries. Base 130 attacking stats stand out in particular. On top of this, Dragon and Ice are great offensive types individually, if not fantastic in combination. So, you ask again, why? Well, Defensively, its Ice typing is a severe liability, leaving it extremely vulnerable to entry hazards and common attacks. This cannot be stressed enough: Kyurem hates entry hazards of all kinds, which makes Rapid Spin support almost compulsory. This can be somewhat counteracted by Kyurem's fantastic natural bulk, though; Kyurem's defensive stats would be considered good for a wall, and can allow it to switch into Water-, Grass-, and Electric-types with ease. Unfortunately, however, there is more bad news: Kyurem's Speed stat falls agonizingly short of Hydreigon, Haxorus, and a multitude of base 100s. Despite the extremely welcome addition of Earth Power, its movepool is rather lacking in comparison to other Dragons in OU; Kyurem lacks a good boosting move, as well as Earthquake and Fire-type moves. Altogether, this makes an outright sweep rather unlikely.</p>

    <p>So, what is Kyurem good for? What does it have over other Dragons? Well, Kyurem's main niche is the ability to function effectively in hail, in which it can fire off monstrous Blizzards. Additionally, Ice STAB can prove useful in eliminating Grass-types and OHKOing Dragonite through Multiscale. Thanks to the addition of Roost from a BW2 move tutor, Pressure has become a much more valuable ability, too. Don't forget that it has the best overall power and the best overall bulk of any OU dragon, and that it isn't weak to Pursuit or U-turn. Overall, Kyurem is definitely not the best Dragon in OU, but it definitely has a niche, and with the right support, can be very rewarding.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubRoost
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Ice Beam / Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Earth Power / Focus Blast
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Modest
    evs: 52 HP / 220 SpA / 236 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Rather than focusing solely on Kyurem's massive Special Attack stat, this set utilizes its above-average bulk, its nice set of resistances, and its Pressure ability. Substitute is the crux of this set, as it eases prediction and prevents Kyurem from being crippled by status or revenge killed easily. Kyurem can make 101 HP Substitutes, that will only fade after two hits of Seismic Toss or Night Shade. Weaker moves, such as Scald and Volt Switch, usually won't break the Substitute either thanks to Kyurem's resistances and above-average defenses. When combined with Roost, Substitute can even be used to stall out the opponent's PP with Pressure, which is especially effective if only one or two moves can break Kyurem's Substitutes. Pokemon you might expect to beat Kyurem, such as Bronzong, can be rendered useless as their attacking PP disappears.</p>

    <p>Though this set might be less powerful than some of the others, it should not be forgotten that Kyurem has an impressive base 130 Special Attack stat and very good neutral coverage. Its STAB move, Ice Beam or Dragon Pulse, will of course be its staple attack. Ice Beam (or Blizzard if using Kyurem in hail) probably offers better super effective coverage, but the neutral coverage of Dragon Pulse is unparalleled. Earth Power is an excellent coverage move in either case, hitting every Steel-type but Skarmory, which is covered by Ice Beam, and Bronzong, which can be dealt with by PP stalling. Focus Blast might have disappointing accuracy and PP, but it has perfect neutral coverage with Dragon Pulse, and is therefore a strong choice.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EVs grant Kyurem 404 HP, which allows it to make bulky 101 HP Substitutes, and give it enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mamoswine and Dragonite, as well as Adamant Lucario and Landorus-T. The remaining EVs are dumped into Special Attack to let Kyurem hit as hard as possible. If you wish to run a little more Special Attack, you can lower Kyurem's Speed EVs to 216 for Adamant Lucario, or 224 for Adamant Landorus-T. If outrunning Adamant Haxorus, Modest Hydreigon, and Jolly Landorus-T is a major concern, you can use a Timid nature instead, but this set is already rather weak compared to other Kyurem sets. Hidden Power Fire can be used instead of Earth Power in order to hit Scizor and Ferrothorn much harder, but leaves Kyurem walled by the likes of Heatran. You'll need to add 4 extra EVs to Speed when using it due to the imperfect IV required. Life Orb is an option if you prefer a boost in power, offering a chance to 2HKO specially defensive Jirachi and Choice Band Scizor with Earth Power, but the residual damage will build up too fast, causing Kyurem to use Roost far more than without. </p>

    <p>As far as teammates are concerned, you might wish to consider Abomasnow, as its ability, Snow Warning, allows Kyurem to spam one of the most powerful Blizzards in the game. The extra hail damage is also very helpful when stalling, for example allowing Kyurem to beat Chansey. Be warned, however, that Blizzard has lower PP than the alternative moves. Toxic Spikes are also highly helpful when PP stalling, as they let Kyurem beat Blissey and a whole host of other Pokemon with recovery. Tentacruel is a good Pokemon to set up Toxic Spikes, as it also has access to Rapid Spin and covers Kyurem's weaknesses. Rapid Spin is crucial, since Kyurem is weak to every kind of entry hazard (as is Abomasnow). If not using Tentacruel, you should consider another Rapid Spin user such as Starmie. Scizor, and some other Steel-types depending on your choice of coverage move, can take at least one of Kyurem's moves and KO it with their STAB moves. Therefore, Magnezone is a decent choice, since it can trap and KO Steel-types, including Scizor and Jirachi.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice
    move 1: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Earth Power
    move 4: Focus Blast
    item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Given that Kyurem's STAB moves are very powerful and resisted by fairly few Pokemon, a Choice set is a very good option. A Choice Scarf will boost Kyurem's slightly disappointing Speed stat to one which beats the entire unboosted metagame, including all of the genies' Therian forms, letting it act as a revenge killer and late-game cleaner. Choice Specs, on the other hand, allows Kyurem to smash through defensive Pokemon with its monstrous power, but might cause it to be forced out by faster Pokemon. Generally, spamming Blizzard in hail is Kyurem's best option, as this move is powerful and without drawbacks. Ice Beam is significantly weaker, and so will probably not act as Kyurem's main attacking move, but it does not necessitate hail. Draco Meteor might be even stronger than Blizzard, but the Special Attack drops will often force Kyurem out, which is not ideal for a Pokemon so weak to entry hazards. Nonetheless, this hits Fire- and Water-types a lot harder than Blizzard does, and is fairly reliable outside of hail. Steel-type Pokemon resist all of these moves, however, so Focus Blast and Earth Power are great options for the remaining two slots. Earth Power hits all Steel-types but Bronzong and Skarmory for at least neutral damage, and is especially effective against Jirachi and Heatran. Focus Blast, on the other hand, provides a good super effective hit on Tyranitar and Ferrothorn. Forgoing one of these moves for Dragon Pulse is viable, as this move is great for late-game cleaning due to its perfect accuracy and excellent coverage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The spread on this set is really simple: Special Attack, and hence Kyurem's damage output, is maximized, as is Kyurem's Speed, which allows it to tie opposing Kyurem and Darmanitan and to outrun Landorus-T. Running a Modest nature is also a decent idea, to give Kyurem's attacks extra power, but the Choice Scarf set will miss out on outrunning Scarf Landorus-T, +1 Adamant Haxorus, and +1 Modest Volcarona, among other things. As far as alternative moves go, you could consider Hidden Power Fire to hit Scizor, Forretress, and Ferrothorn, though in that case you might as well drop Kyurem's Speed EVs to 228 just to outrun Landorus-T (because of the imperfect Speed IV required). Outrage is also a possibility in conjunction with a Naive nature, as it allows Kyurem to deal more damage to Blissey, Chansey, and Pokemon with boosted Special Defense, such as +1 Volcarona and Keldeo. The only other move of note is Sleep Talk, which might allow Kyurem to absorb sleep moves from the likes of Amoonguss without being completely crippled.</p>

    <p>As far as team support is concerned, Abomasnow should be your first consideration. Kyurem is the only dragon that benefits from hail, where its Blizzard gains perfect accuracy, and the opponent's Leftovers are cancelled. Rapid Spin support is also near-compulsory due to Kyurem's massive entry hazard weakness and frequent switching. Starmie would be a decent choice, as the two have good defensive synergy. You might also want to consider Magnezone, as Kyurem has trouble with Steel-types, especially Scizor and Jirachi.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Life Orb
    move 1: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Focus Blast / Earth Power
    move 4: Roost / Earth Power
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set aims to make the best use of Kyurem's excellent Special Attack stat without sacrificing too much of its durability or coverage. The combination of power and flexibility offered by a Life Orb is hard to resist, and with the addition of Roost, the additional residual damage need not be overwhelming. Blizzard is Kyurem's main STAB move in hail, as it is very powerful, virtually drawback-free, and has decent coverage. Ice Beam is significantly weaker, but is clearly the superior option if you are using Kyurem outside of hail. Draco Meteor, on the other hand, is Kyurem's ace in the hole. Offering enormous power and near-perfect coverage, it hits any Fire- or Water-type that might attempt to take Kyurem's Blizzard. Unfortunately, its side-effect will usually force Kyurem out, which is far from ideal for a Pokemon so weak to entry hazards. Focus Blast and Earth Power provide coverage on Steel-types and Tyranitar. Earth Power notably falls short against Ferrothorn and Tyranitar, but hits Jirachi much harder and is significantly more accurate. Roost allows Kyurem to recover off damage from Life Orb and entry hazards, and allows Kyurem to make some use of its bulk and Pressure ability.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs on this set allow Kyurem to outrun positive-natured Landorus-T and Lucario, maximize Special Attack, and then give Kyurem a touch more bulk so that it can take better advantage of Roost. A Modest nature is an option, but Kyurem will instead only outrun neutral-natured Landorus-T and Lucario, and will also miss out on positive-natured base 80s such as Mamoswine. The only other notable move option is Hidden Power Fire, which will deal great damage to Scizor, Forretress, and Ferrothorn, but will leave Kyurem walled by Tyranitar and Heatran.</p>

    <p>Chansey and Blissey are extremely annoying for this set to face , as they wall Kyurem completely and can cripple it with Thunder Wave or Toxic. You might want to find a way to lure them in, for example Tricking them with Latios or Rotom-W. As Scizor and Jirachi can also be problematic, support from Magnezone can be considered. Abomasnow is as always a good partner for Kyurem, as it allows an accurate Blizzard and provides useful residual damage on the opponent. A Rapid Spin user is also greatly appreciated, due to Kyurem's severe entry hazard weakness; Starmie and Tentacruel are therefore both good partners.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Mixed
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 3: Earth Power
    move 4: Outrage
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Hasty / Mild
    evs: 32 Atk / 252 SpA / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set makes full use of Kyurem's monstrous attacking stats to break through walls, opening up gaping holes in the opponent's team. Draco Meteor is phenomenally powerful, threatening all but Steel-types and dedicated special walls with an OHKO. Even the few Pokemon that survive will then have to contend with the possibility of Outrage; despite the minimal Attack investment, this still hits as hard as that from a maximum Attack neutral-natured Life Orb Flygon. Outrage will 2HKO all Blissey and will give Kyurem a good chance to break through Chansey in hail, or with entry hazards. Of course, both of these moves have large drawbacks, so Blizzard is a great move to have, providing a strong, reliable move to use in hail. It also hits Grass- and Flying-types super effectively; for example, Kyurem can easily OHKO Dragonite through Multiscale. Ice Beam is the better move on teams without hail, though of course this is to forgo one of Kyurem's main advantages over other Dragons. Outside of hail, Dragonite, Salamence, Hydreigon, or Latios might prove a better choice due to their superior Speed and typing, though they do lack Kyurem's power and bulk. However, since it received Earth Power from a BW2 Move Tutor, Kyurem doesn't have the same trouble with Steel-types that it used to. Earth Power completes Kyurem's neutral coverage outside of Bronzong, and notably OHKOes Heatran and 2HKOes specially defensive Jirachi some of the time.</p>

    <p>All in all, this set is extremely powerful, but can be worn down rather quickly, given the Life Orb and Kyurem's crippling weakness to entry hazards. Notably, though, it isn't forced to switch as often as the Choice set is; this Kyurem only needs to come in once to cause havoc.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The spread on this set allows Kyurem to outrun positive-natured Landorus-T and Lucario, as well as neutral-natured Hydreigon and Haxorus. Special Attack is then maximized to give Draco Meteor and Blizzard maximum punch, and the remainder is placed into Attack to boost the power of Outrage. A Hasty nature provides the required boost to Speed without hurting Kyurem's offenses; a Defense-hindering nature is chosen as most of Kyurem's resistances are specially oriented. Kyurem can quite easily switch into Water-, Electric-, and Grass-type Pokemon this way. A Naive nature could be used instead to let Kyurem better take some physical priority moves, but Kyurem shouldn't be taking these anyway. A Mild nature can be used, alternatively, to give Kyurem more power, but Kyurem loses out against all of the aforementioned Speed targets, instead outrunning only Adamant Landorus-T and below.</p>

    <p>The moves on this set are also somewhat flexible. Focus Blast is an alternative to Earth Power, as it allows Kyurem to hit Tyranitar considerably harder while still hitting most Steel-types, especially Ferrothorn. Hidden Power Fire might require the addition of 4 Speed EVs, but it provides a very strong hit on Scizor, Forretress, and Ferrothorn while still doing moderate damage to the likes of Jirachi. It is also by far Kyurem's best attack against Bronzong.</p>

    <p>As far as teammates are concerned, Abomasnow is highly recommended, as it provides Kyurem with a 100% accurate Blizzard and cancels the opponent's Leftovers. Rapid Spin support, for example from Starmie, is also recommended, due to Kyurem's (and Abomasnow's) huge entry hazard weakness. Trapping problematic opponents can also be effective; Dugtrio can trap Tyranitar, while Magnezone can trap Scizor, Ferrothorn and Forretress.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Although Kyurem might have a very impressive Attack stat, its physical movepool is barren. Outrage, Dragon Claw, Dragon Tail, Zen Headbutt, and Stone Edge are pretty much the extent of its physical attacking movepool. Hone Claws is a somewhat viable boosting move; it can boost the power of Kyurem's physical moves and give Blizzard respectable accuracy outside of hail. A bulky set with Substitute, Hone Claws, Protect, and either Dragon Claw or Dragon Tail is fairly notable as it can easily dispatch Chansey and Blissey, and can wear other problematic opponents down with residual damage. Glaciate, Kyurem's signature move, is also viable; it can be used on the switch to slow down opponents before hitting them with the appropriate move. However, Substitute is usually the superior move, as it is also effective against slower opponents, and can protect Kyurem from status moves and priority attacks. A Life Orb set also performs fairly well in the lead position, so there is no real need to use a "lead" set featuring Glaciate and Endeavor. The entire concept of a lead is rather outdated anyway.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>When it comes to countering Kyurem directly, its mixed and Choice Specs sets are the most problematic. Most of Kyurem's checks are Steel-types, as they resist Blizzard and Draco Meteor – indeed, the majority of common Steel-types can check the Choice Scarf set. When it comes to genuine counters though, Bronzong is by far the best, as it is also immune to Kyurem's premier coverage move, Earth Power. At full health, however, it's worth noting that the SubRoost set can often stall Bronzong out of Gyro Ball PP. Scizor is also a very strong check, fearing only the rare Hidden Power Fire or Choice Specs Blizzard, and dealing 90% minimum with Choice Band-boosted Bullet Punch. Specially defensive Jirachi is a reasonable switch-in, but a Life Orb Earth Power has a chance to 2HKO, and with hail and entry hazards, even the SubRoost set can present problems.</p>

    <p>Special walls also make good checks to Kyurem. Tyranitar can take pretty much anything but Focus Blast, although it does struggle to take Draco Meteor + Outrage from the mixed set as well. It will remove hail too, rendering Blizzard inaccurate. Blissey and Chansey stop the Choice sets cold, but Blissey fears a 2HKO from Outrage. Chansey, taking 40.9 - 48.15%, is at risk only in hail or with entry hazards. Neither of these can break through the SubRoost set either, with Pressure burning through their Seismic Toss PP. However, they might be able to PP stall Kyurem out depending on the conditions; Toxic Spikes, or hail in the case of Chansey, will usually lead to defeat.</p>

    <p>Finally, you can exploit Kyurem's slightly disappointing Speed to revenge kill it; just be wary of Kyurem's excellent natural bulk. A super effective, STAB attack, such as Infernape's or Terrakion's Close Combat, or a Dragon-type attack from Hydreigon, Latios, or Haxorus, should OHKO Kyurem comfortably.</p>
  2. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Looks pretty good. Just a note, It would be nice if Timid got a slash or an AC mention on the Sub Roost set. With Timid, you outrun Modest Volcarona, Neutral max speed Mence, and Adamant Haxorus, all of which are kinda cool to outrun. I think these pokemon (and EV spreads) are common enough for Timid to at least get a mention and while the lack of power might be a turn off, outrunning those 2 dragons and nailing them with Ice Beam would be useful I imagine. Just a thought.
  3. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Yeah, I suppose. It's just that the set is pretty weak as it is. It's definitely getting an AC mention though. Don't know how I missed that.
  4. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    This looks good, although running Max Speed is probably the way to go on those Choice sets, as well as the special LO set. Kyurem may just get popular in the near future, and speed-tieing them would be good.

    QC APPROVED 1/3
  5. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Whoops forgot

    QC APPROVED 2/3
  6. bubbly

    bubbly

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    I still feel like Dragon Pulse needs a slash behind Roost, or even I guess Substitute, on the first set. Being completely walled by bulky Waters is horrible, and most of them can hurt you a little (Encore / Perish Song / Focus Blast on Toed, Ice Beam on LO Starmie, Hydro Pump on standard max SpAtk Rotom-W breaks the Sub reliably while you can't do anything in return). Toxic Spikes help out but its hardly something to be relying on since well over half the teams at the moment have a Rapid Spinner or Amoonguss.
  7. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Without both substitute and roost I would be inclined to use the Special Life Orb set (or any other set). You really need both to make full use of pressure.

    Focus Blast and Hydro Pump are not even remotely problematic. In each case, the opponent only has four of them and at least one of them will probably miss. I believe you can also stall Starmie out of Hydro Pump and Ice Beam pp, or just 2HKO with Earth Power. Starmie and Rotom-W are conclusively beaten by Kyurem pretty much whatever set they use. If you are that worried about other bulky waters I would probably use dragon pulse and focus blast or dragon pulse and earth power. The neutral coverage is very good with any combination of the moves, really.

    Oh, and thanks for the stamps QC people.
  8. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    Yeah this is good. Kyurem's speed is fine, and about your *note* concerning speed... I wouldn't let better you tbh. There's no point unning max+ speed in order to tie with Darmanitan (usually scarfed/not common) or Gliscor (usually defensive). Sets that use Blizzard need predictably need Abomasnow mentions, and maybe mention ICe Beam in AC that if you wanted to use those Kyurem sets outside of Hail.

    QC APPROVED (3/3)
  9. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Thanks PK Gaming

    And to clarify, of course I'm going to mention hail. The sections for choice and mixed are just changes from the previous analysis (where hail is of course mentioned).
  10. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    OK I've finished writing/editing this now. Should be ready for GPing.

    I stole some of AccidentalGreed's Sub writeup for the new subroost set, so some credit is due there. Apologies for butchering your analysis, AG.
  11. Bossness

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    May I state my personal opinion? The subroost set needs a timid nature slash. I never even needed the power granted by the modest nature. The current onsite analysis for Hydreigon, Haxorus and Salamence use attack boosting natures. That timid nature could prove to be useful to outspeed and take out these dragons. More importantly, the Hydreigon update shows that is will be using rash/mild/modest and so it may prove usefull to outspeed and KO it. The reason the aforementioned dragons use speed boosting natures is because they need the additional power. Kyurem, however does not need it especially on the subroost set, I mean it stalling first then attacking right? Afterwards the opponent is unable to do anything back while Kyurem slowly kills them.
    Also is it okay to rename the life orb sets to Special Attacker and Mixed(this is what was done to Dialga's sets in Ubers). Naming a set Special Life Orb suggests that there is a Physical Life Orb and a Mixed Life Orb.
  12. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    No, it's definitely attacking first, and then stalling if you need to. If that didn't come across I probably need to edit my writeup. Still, I'm happy to slash Timid if QC people agree.

    Also, Special Life Orb implies that there is a Life Orb set which is not purely special - which there is. On the other hand, there are three sets which are special attackers, so that would be a terrible name.

    Edit: kyurem is not that fast and breloom doesn't OHKO. Scizor is listed because it can actually switch in.
  13. Bossness

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    Thanks for the clarification. BTW shouldnt Choice Band Breloom be mentioned as a check?
  14. sirndpt

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    [gp]1/2[/gp]
  15. ace combat

    ace combat

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    I really feel like the Sub Roost sets teammates could be redone. For the Sub Roost set Abomasnow really is not the best teammate because of their shared weaknesses and Kyurem really does not rely on Blizzard as much because it is no longer hitting quite so hard and it does not like the reduced STAB PP that will be needed for stalling, along with making its main attack unreliable. (Even if you completely disagree with what I have to say regular Kyurem does not have the most powerful Blizzard in the game by a longshot and you need to change that.) One of the main benefits of Sub Roost set is that it is not nearly reliant on Hail as other Kyurem sets, and therefore Abamasnow probably is no longer the best teammate. Magnezone support is probably more important to this set (probably more important than any other set) because it can force Scizor to use Bullet Punch on first turn because you can set up Substitute, allowing for an easy Magnezone switch in. I do not have too many team mates in mind because I have to do more testing, but I feel that we can do better with the teammates rather than echoing the teammates in the other sets as this set is played quite differently.
  16. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I wholeheartedly agree with the above poster. Aboma is not really needed as a partner for SubRoost Kyurem. SubRoost Kyurem fits better in balanced teams from my experience, which won't appreciate the multiple weaknesses that both pokes will bring such as Steel, Rock and Fighting. Why waste a teamslot for Aboma when you don't really rely on the power of Blizzard to muscle through checks/counters anyway? The selling point of SubRoost is its ability to act as a powerful bulky attacker that can heal and pp stall very good. Blizzard doesn't help Kyurem improve greatly any of it's purposes. For example if you go with an Ice attack water types will resist your STAB move, so you are better of using your secondary move which at worst hits equally hard as Blizzard. In reality i would argue that Blizzard could be potentially worse due to the very few 8 pps, which matter in Kyurem's case, which aims to stick around very long.

    The best support that SubKyurem could have is Magnezone support to eliminate JIRACHI and Scizor, and T-Spikes to fuck up any bulky water and the blobs (Tentacruel is the best partner as it can also spin).
  17. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I agree. I should've changed the teammates from the old analysis (they're not copied from the other sets at all - I didn't even write those bits). In the morning I'll edit it. Abomasnow will still be mentioned, but played down.

    I don't think magnezone is nearly as necessary as you guys think though. Jirachi and Scizor are really not that problematic, assuming you're using Earth Power. Scizor will be forced to use Bullet Punch, which leaves it at the mercy of a huge number of things, not just Magnezone. It'll be mentioned still.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I agree with you about Scizor, which dies from 2-3 EPs. But what about Jirachi? He doesn't give a fuck about EP, losing only 38.61 - 45.54% and having reliable recovery to stick around, while also being very annoying for your teammates with Body Slam. Although i suppose he could go down if you got a SpD drop on the switch in, allowing you to 2hko him, or if you have Life Orb.

    Oh and something else that i wanted to say but i forgot it, put 4 more HP evs on Kyurem (take them from SpA obviously) so that he doesn't die from 4 SR switch-ins. This is important when you play against sand teams, which nullify your Lefties recovery.

    Finally i think you should add a mention of LO in the AC of the SubRoost (too late i know, but it is only a paragraph). With LO you are now able to 2hko Jirachi (your biggest counter), 2hko Scizor with EP, 2hko Ferrothorn with Ice Beam, 2hko Forretress with EP, ohko Skarmory after SR with Ice Beam, ohko any Bulky Volcarona that could attempt to set-up on you (after you kill something of 'course) after SR with Dragon Pulse and do 42.44 - 50.16% to a +1 0 HP Volcarona, and generally offers a lot of power that prevents many mons from setting up (Keldeo can no longer set-up on you for example).
  19. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    The declining to add those 4 evs was quite deliberate. I am fully aware of the effects that it has, and I can say that it will only matter if you are both stupid and extremely unlucky, and even then Kyurem will die to SS.

    That is enough damage to kill Jirachi if it lacks Protect, and if it doesn't, will force it to use Protect, giving you a free roost/switch/sub/whatever. If you're lucky you might even stall it out of iron head pp.

    edit: there is already a LO mention
  20. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I still think that 4 HP evs are worth it, as you are not losing anything, while you gain the ability to take 4 SR rounds, however situational this might be. Anyway this is not worth talking anyway...

    What about the LO mention? Several other pokes use this strategy to very good success, such as offensive SubRoost Moltres and Ho-Oh, and Kyurem shares many similar traits with them (Pressure, above average speed, special attacker, good coverage with 2 moves) so i think it is pretty legit (btw i have used it, i am not theorymoning).

    EDIT: Ok haven't seen it. Maybe, just maybe, mention some examples (2-3 would be enough) of ohkos-2hkoes that you gain with LO, so newer players can understand when to pick it over Lefties?
  21. Bossness

    Bossness

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    I think the Overview needs a change of tone to show how much Kyurem has improved. Getting EP and Roost was a big deal for Kyurem as now it has no 100% counter and can also heal off residual damage which was previously a problem. For example, now with roost and substitute, it can heal back most of its hp as the opponent breaks its sub and then switch out. Previously in BW1 it had to face even more residual damge if it want to switch out while having no means to heal itself. Also, maybe mention its ability to check the new therians. Another thing to note is that as long as Kyurem is behind a substitute, it threatens pokemon that would otherwise threaten it. BTW Kyurem isnt too reliant on hail anymore. It works on sun teams too because sun teams lack a good user of ice type moves. Also, I am agreeing that magnezone is a better partner for the subroost set as it often lures in Scizor and Jirachi which are promptly eliminated. Timid should get a slash on subroost as outspeeding Hydreigon and OHKOing it is big while also retaining the substitute - Hydreigon doesnt even use a speed boosting nature according to the soon-to-be-uploaded analysis.
    EDIT: You can choose what you want to do with the overview. I just think it sounds a bit negative. To the user below, I completely agree. Kyurem can annoy alot of teams. Most offensive pokemon get KOed if they want to break Kyurem's substitute.
  22. casey90

    casey90

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    I've been running and promoting the Sub-roost Kyurem set since BW2 began, I'm very happy to see it getting some recognition!

    I think for the SubRoost set, you should mention Tentacruel as a partner, It can Rapid Spin away Hazards and lay down Toxic Spikes. Toxic Spikes allow Kyurem to get past bulky waters that would previously wall him. While your at it, mention his great synergy on a rain team. Rain Beefs up the aformentioned Tentacruel, while giving him a pseudo fire resistance at the same time. He also brings valuable Electric and Grass resists with him, giving Rain teams an offensive option against Jolteon, Magnezone, Rotom-W, Celebi and the rare Shaymin, all at the same time.

    Also Mention that behind a sub, with SR and Toxic Spikes up, the only common OU Pokemon that can switch in and survive, are Scizor (who's 2hko'd) and Jirachi, who is vulnerable to Sp. Def drops from EP and 3hko'd without them. Everything Else is severly crippled, KO'd, or Stalled out by Sub-Roost, Pressure and Toxic Spikes.

    EDIT: Mention that every TS absorber in the tier is beaten 1 on 1.
  23. Aeron Ee1

    Aeron Ee1 Nom nom nom
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    Am I still allowed to do these?

    Proofread (open)


    Changes in bold
    Removals in red
    Comments in bold red

    [Overview]

    <p>Ever since its introduction, Kyurem has been a pretty rare sight in OU, and looking at its stats, it's not exactly clear why; these stats are absolutely on par with those of the many Uber legendaries. Base 130 attacking stats stand out in particular. On top of this, Dragon and Ice are great offensive types individually, if not fantastic in combination. So, you ask again, why? Well, defensively, its Ice typing is a severe liability, leaving it extremely vulnerable to entry hazards and common attacks. This cannot be stressed enough: Kyurem hates entry hazards of all kinds, which makes Rapid Spin support almost compulsory. This can be somewhat counteracted by Kyurem's fantastic natural bulk, though; Kyurem's defensive stats would be considered good for a wall, and can allow it to switch into Water-, Grass-, and Electric-types with ease. Unfortunately, however, there is more bad news: Kyurem's Speed stat falls agonizingly short of Hydreigon, Haxorus, and a multitude of base 100s. Despite the extremely welcome addition of Earth Power, its movepool is rather lacking in comparison to other Dragons in OU; Kyurem lacks a good boosting move, as well as Earthquake and Fire-type moves. Altogether, this makes an outright sweep rather unlikely.</p>

    <p>So, what is Kyurem good for? What does it have over other Dragons? Well, Kyurem's main niche is the ability to function effectively in hail, in which it can fire off monstrous Blizzards. Additionally, Ice STAB can prove useful in eliminating Grass-types and OHKOing Dragonite through Multiscale. Thanks to the addition of Roost from a BW2 move tutor, Pressure has become a much more valuable ability, too. Don't forget that it has the best overall power and the best overall bulk of any OU dragon, and that it isn't weak to Pursuit or U-turn. Overall, Kyurem is definitely not the best Dragon in OU, but it definitely has a niche, and with the right support, can be very rewarding.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubRoost
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Ice Beam / Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Earth Power / Focus Blast
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Modest
    evs: 52 HP / 220 SpA / 236 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Rather than focusing solely on Kyurem's massive Special Attack stat, this set utilizes its above-average bulk, its nice set of resistances, and its Pressure ability. Substitute is the crux of this set, as it eases prediction and prevents Kyurem from being crippled by status or revenge killed easily. Kyurem can make 101 HP Substitutes, that will only fade after two hits of Seismic Toss or Night Shade. Weaker moves, such as Scald and Volt Switch, usually won't break the Substitute either thanks to Kyurem's resistances and above-average defenses. When combined with Roost, Substitute can even be used to stall out the opponent's PP with Pressure, which is especially effective if only one or two moves can break Kyurem's Substitutes. Pokemon you might expect to beat Kyurem, such as Bronzong, can be rendered useless as their attacking PP disappears.</p>

    <p>Though this set might be less powerful than some of the others, it should not be forgotten that Kyurem has an impressive base 130 Special Attack stat and very good neutral coverage. Its STAB move, Ice Beam or Dragon Pulse, will of course be its staple attack. Ice Beam (or Blizzard if using Kyurem in hail) probably offers better super effective coverage, but the neutral coverage of Dragon Pulse is unparalleled. Earth Power is an excellent coverage move in either case, hitting every Steel-type but Skarmory, which is covered by Ice Beam, and Bronzong, which can be dealt with by PP stalling. Focus Blast might have disappointing accuracy and PP, but it has perfect neutral coverage with Dragon Pulse, and is therefore a strong choice.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EVs grant Kyurem 404 HP, which allows it to make bulky 101 HP Substitutes, and give it enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mamoswine and Dragonite, as well as Adamant Lucario and Landorus-T. The remaining EVs are dumped into Special Attack to let Kyurem hit as hard as possible. If you wish to run a little more Special Attack, you can lower Kyurem's Speed EVs to 216 for Adamant Lucario, or 224 for Adamant Landorus-T. If outrunning Adamant Haxorus, Modest Hydreigon, and Jolly Landorus-T is a major concern, you can use a Timid nature instead, but this set is already rather weak offensively compared to other Kyurem sets. Hidden Power Fire can be used instead of Earth Power in order to hit Scizor and Ferrothorn much harder, but leaves Kyurem walled by the likes of Heatran. You'll need to add 4 extra EVs to Speed when using it due to the imperfect IV required. Life Orb is an option if you prefer a boost in power, but the residual damage will build up too fast, causing Kyurem to use Roost far more than without. </p>

    <p>As far as teammates are concerned, you might wish to consider Abomasnow, as its ability, Snow Warning, allows Kyurem to spam one of the most powerful Blizzards in the game. The extra hail damage is also very helpful when stalling, for example allowing Kyurem to beat Chansey. Be warned, however, that Blizzard has lower PP than the alternative moves, however. Toxic Spikes are also highly helpful when PP stalling, as they let Kyurem beat Blissey and a whole host of other Pokemon with recovery. Tentacruel is a good Pokemon to set up Toxic Spikes, as it also has access to Rapid Spin and covers Kyurem's weaknesses. Rapid Spin is crucial, since Kyurem is weak to every kind of entry hazard (as is Abomasnow). If not using Tentacruel, you should consider another Rapid Spin user such as Starmie. Scizor, and some other Steel-types depending on your choice of coverage move, can take at least one of Kyurem's moves and KO it with their STAB moves. Heatran and Skarmory can take on most of these Pokemon while also being able to set up entry hazards, which makes them solid teammates. Without a Substitute up, Kyurem is forced out by faster Pokemon with strong Fighting-type moves, such as Terrakion and Virizion. The aforementioned Skarmory can take these hits reasonably well, but bulky Psychic-types such as Reuniclus and Mew can work too.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice
    move 1: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Earth Power
    move 4: Focus Blast
    item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Given that Kyurem's STAB moves are very powerful and resisted by fairly few Pokemon, a Choice set is a very good option. A Choice Scarf will boost Kyurem's slightly disappointing Speed stat to one which beats the entire unboosted metagame, including all of the genies' Therian forms, letting it act as a revenge killer and late-game cleaner. Choice Specs, on the other hand, allows Kyurem to smash through defensive Pokemon with its monstrous power, but might cause it to be forced out by faster Pokemon. Generally, spamming Blizzard in hail is Kyurem's best option, as this move is powerful and without drawbacks. Ice Beam is significantly weaker, and so will probably not act as Kyurem's main attacking move, but it does not necessitate hail. Draco Meteor might be even stronger than Blizzard, but the Special Attack drops will often force Kyurem out, which is not ideal for a Pokemon so weak to entry hazards. Nonetheless, this hits Fire- and Water-types a lot harder than Blizzard does, and is fairly reliable outside of hail. Steel-type Pokemon resist all of these moves, however, so Focus Blast and Earth Power are great options for the remaining two slots. Earth Power hits all Steel-types but Bronzong and Skarmory for at least neutral damage, and is especially effective against Jirachi and Heatran. Focus Blast, on the other hand, provides a good super effective hit on Tyranitar and Ferrothorn. Forgoing one of these moves for Dragon Pulse is viable, as this move is great for late-game cleaning due to its perfect accuracy and excellent coverage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The spread on this set is really simple: Special Attack, and hence Kyurem's damage output, is maximized, as is Kyurem's Speed, which allows it to tie opposing Kyurem and Darmanitan and to outrun Landorus-T. Running a Modest nature is also a decent idea, to give Kyurem's attacks extra power, but the Choice Scarf set will miss out on outrunning Scarf Landorus-T, +1 Adamant Haxorus, and +1 Modest Volcarona, among other things. As far as alternative moves go, you could consider Hidden Power Fire to hit Scizor, Forretress, and Ferrothorn, though in that case you might as well drop Kyurem's Speed EVs to 228 just to outrun Landorus-T (because of the imperfect Speed IV required). Outrage is also a possibility in conjunction with a Naive nature, as it allows Kyurem to deal more damage to Blissey, Chansey, and Pokemon with boosted Special Defense, such as +1 Volcarona and Keldeo. The only other move of note is Sleep Talk, which might allow Kyurem to absorb sleep moves from the likes of Amoonguss without being completely crippled.</p>

    <p>As far as team support is concerned, Abomasnow should be your first consideration. Kyurem is the only Dragon-type that benefits from hail, where its Blizzard gains perfect accuracy, and the opponent's Leftovers are cancelled. Rapid Spin support is also near-compulsory due to Kyurem's massive entry hazard weakness and frequent switching. Starmie would be a decent choice, as the two have good defensive synergy. You might also want to consider Magnezone, as Kyurem has trouble with Steel-types, especially Scizor and Jirachi.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Life Orb
    move 1: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Focus Blast / Earth Power
    move 4: Roost / Earth Power
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set aims to make the best use of Kyurem's excellent Special Attack stat without sacrificing too much of its durability or coverage. The combination of power and flexibility offered by a Life Orb is hard to resist, and with the addition of Roost, the additional residual damage need not be overwhelming. Blizzard is Kyurem's main STAB move in hail, as it is very powerful, virtually drawback-free, and has decent coverage. Ice Beam is significantly weaker, but is clearly the superior option if you are using Kyurem outside of hail. Draco Meteor, on the other hand, is Kyurem's ace in the hole. Offering enormous power and near-perfect coverage, it hits any Fire- or Water-type that might attempt to take Kyurem's Blizzard. Unfortunately, its side-effect will usually force Kyurem out, which is far from ideal for a Pokemon so weak to entry hazards. Focus Blast and Earth Power provide coverage on Steel-types and Tyranitar. Earth Power notably falls short against Ferrothorn and Tyranitar, but hits Jirachi much harder and is significantly more accurate. Roost allows Kyurem to recover off damage from Life Orb and entry hazards, and allows Kyurem to make some use of its bulk and Pressure ability.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs on this set allow Kyurem to outrun positive-natured Landorus-T and Lucario, maximize Special Attack, and then give Kyurem a touch more bulk so that it can take better advantage of Roost. A Modest nature is an option, but Kyurem will instead only outrun neutral-natured Landorus-T and Lucario, and will also miss out on positive-natured base 80s such as Mamoswine. The only other notable move option is Hidden Power Fire, which will deal great damage to Scizor, Forretress, and Ferrothorn, but will leave Kyurem walled by Tyranitar and Heatran.</p>

    <p>Chansey and Blissey are extremely annoying for this set to face , as they wall Kyurem completely and can cripple it with Thunder Wave or Toxic. You might want to find a way to lure them in, for example Tricking them with Latios or Rotom-W. As Scizor and Jirachi can also be problematic, support from Magnezone can be considered. Abomasnow is as always a good partner for Kyurem, as it allows an accurate Blizzard and provides useful residual damage on the opponent. A Rapid Spin user is also greatly appreciated, due to Kyurem's severe entry hazard weakness; Starmie and Tentacruel are therefore both good partners.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Mixed
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 3: Earth Power
    move 4: Outrage
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Hasty / Mild
    evs: 32 Atk / 252 SpA / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set makes full use of Kyurem's monstrous attacking stats to break through walls, opening up gaping holes in the opponent's team. Draco Meteor is phenomenally powerful, threatening all but Steel-types and dedicated special walls with an OHKO. Even the few Pokemon that survive will then have to contend with the possibility of Outrage; despite the minimal Attack investment, this still hits as hard as that from a maximum Attack neutral-natured Life Orb Flygon. Outrage will 2HKO all Blissey and will give Kyurem a good chance to break through Chansey in hail, or with entry hazards. Of course, both of these moves have large drawbacks, so Blizzard is a great move to have, providing a strong, reliable move to use in hail. It also hits Grass- and Flying-types super effectively; for example, Kyurem can easily OHKO Dragonite through Multiscale. Ice Beam is the better move on teams without hail, though of course this is to forgo one of Kyurem's main advantages over other Dragons. Outside of hail, Dragonite, Salamence, Hydreigon, or Latios might prove a better choice due to their superior Speed and typing, though they do lack Kyurem's power and bulk. However, since it received Earth Power from a BW2 Move Tutor, Kyurem doesn't have the same trouble with Steel-types that it used to. Earth Power completes Kyurem's neutral coverage outside of Bronzong, and notably OHKOes Heatran and 2HKOes specially defensive Jirachi some of the time.</p>

    <p>All in all, this set is extremely powerful, but can be worn down rather quickly, given the Life Orb and Kyurem's crippling weakness to entry hazards. Notably, though, it isn't forced to switch as often as the Choice set is; this Kyurem only needs to come in once to cause havoc.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The spread on this set allows Kyurem to outrun positive-natured Landorus-T and Lucario, as well as neutral-natured Hydreigon and Haxorus. Special Attack is then maximized to give Draco Meteor and Blizzard maximum punch, and the remainder is placed into Attack to boost the power of Outrage. A Hasty nature provides the required boost to Speed without hurting Kyurem's offenses; a Defense-hindering nature is chosen as most of Kyurem's resistances are specially oriented. Kyurem can quite easily switch into Water-, Electric-, and Grass-type Pokemon this way. A Naive nature could be used instead to let Kyurem better take some physical priority moves, but Kyurem shouldn't be taking these anyway. A Mild nature can be used, alternatively, to give Kyurem more power, but Kyurem loses out against all of the aforementioned Speed targets, instead outrunning only Adamant Landorus-T and below.</p>

    <p>The moves on this set are also somewhat flexible. Focus Blast is an alternative to Earth Power, as it allows Kyurem to hit Tyranitar considerably harder while still hitting most Steel-types, especially Ferrothorn. Hidden Power Fire might require the addition of 4 Speed EVs, but it provides a very strong hit on Scizor, Forretress, and Ferrothorn while still doing moderate damage to the likes of Jirachi. It is also by far Kyurem's best attack against Bronzong.</p>

    <p>As far as teammates are concerned, Abomasnow is highly recommended, as it provides Kyurem with a 100% accurate Blizzard and cancels the opponent's Leftovers. Rapid Spin support, for example from Starmie, is also recommended, due to Kyurem's (and Abomasnow's) huge entry hazard weakness. Trapping problematic opponents can also be effective; Dugtrio can trap Tyranitar, while Magnezone can trap Scizor, Ferrothorn and Forretress.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Although Kyurem might have a very impressive Attack stat, its physical movepool is barren. Outrage, Dragon Claw, Dragon Tail, Zen Headbutt, and Stone Edge are pretty much the extent of its physical attacking movepool. Hone Claws is a somewhat viable boosting move; it can boost the power of Kyurem's physical moves and give Blizzard respectable accuracy outside of hail. A bulky set with Substitute, Hone Claws, Protect, and either Dragon Claw or Dragon Tail is fairly notable as it can easily dispatch Chansey and Blissey, and can wear other problematic opponents down with residual damage. Glaciate, Kyurem's signature move, is also viable; it can be used on the switch to slow down opponents before hitting them with the appropriate move. However, Substitute is usually the superior move, as it is also effective against slower opponents, and can protect Kyurem from status moves and priority attacks. A Life Orb set also performs fairly well in the lead position, so there is no real need to use a "lead" set featuring Glaciate and Endeavor. The entire concept of a lead is rather outdated anyway.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>When it comes to countering Kyurem directly, its mixed and Choice Specs sets are the most problematic. Most of Kyurem's checks are Steel-types, as they resist Blizzard and Draco Meteor – indeed, the majority of common Steel-types can check the Choice Scarf set. When it comes to genuine counters though, Bronzong is by far the best, as it is also immune to Kyurem's premier coverage move, Earth Power. At full health, however, it's worth noting that the SubRoost set can often stall Bronzong out of Gyro Ball PP. Scizor is also a very strong check, fearing only the rare Hidden Power Fire or Choice Specs Blizzard, and dealing 90% minimum with Choice Band-boosted Bullet Punch. Specially defensive Jirachi is a reasonable switch-in, but a Life Orb Earth Power has a chance to 2HKO, and with hail and entry hazards, even the SubRoost set can present problems.</p>

    <p>Special walls also make good checks to Kyurem. Tyranitar can take pretty much anything but Focus Blast, although it does struggle to take Draco Meteor + Outrage from the mixed set as well. It will remove hail too, rendering Blizzard inaccurate. Blissey and Chansey stop the Choice sets cold, but Blissey fears a 2HKO from Outrage. Chansey, taking 40.9 - 48.15%, is at risk only in hail or with entry hazards. Neither of these can break through the SubRoost set either, with Pressure burning through their Seismic Toss PP. However, they might be able to PP stall Kyurem out depending on the conditions; Toxic Spikes, or hail in the case of Chansey, will usually lead to defeat.</p>

    <p>Finally, you can exploit Kyurem's slightly disappointing Speed to revenge kill it; just be wary of Kyurem's excellent natural bulk. A super effective, STAB attack, such as Infernape's or Terrakion's Close Combat, or a Dragon-type attack from Hydreigon, Latios, or Haxorus, should OHKO Kyurem comfortably.</p>


    Good job.

    GP Approved:
    [​IMG] (2/2)
  24. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Wow people really don't like this.

    I'm still maintaining that Kyurem is far from being the best dragon in OU. Everything issue I list in the overview is very much still an issue. As far as I know, Kyurem never really had any 100% counters, but unfortunately most of the dragons in OU don't have any 100% counters either.

    As for the Therians, it obviously beats Landorus-T, and doesn't really check the other therians at all, unless its running scarf, in which case it's already mentioned.

    Also, I've just been told to recommend sun AND rain, two types of weather from which Kyurem gains absolutely nothing. I mean seriously, do you really think that's a good idea? While I'm at it, should I recommend using your entire team? (by the way, cloyster is a good user of ice-type moves for sun teams, and there is no requirement for a user of ice-type moves anyway.) Hail is quite clearly the only weather type beneficial to Kyurem and that's why I listed it in all the sets. The first set is less reliant on it, which is why Blizzard is not even slashed on the set.

    I can't slash anything without consulting QC. If you want to speak to them, feel free. I would not object to slashing Timid.

    And thanks Aeron Ee1. Of course you can still do this.
  25. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    You still haven't done this, and Abomasnow is still the first teammate mentioned.

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