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Kyurem (Revamp) [QC 3/3] [GP 2/2]

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by jc104, Mar 9, 2012.

  1. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/kyurem


    [​IMG]
    OK I said I was going to put this up in a weeks time but here we go. The skeleton is probably ready for QC, though I'm not completely sure about all the descriptions yet.


    Changes from previous analysis:


    • Removed Glaciate (it just doesn't work)
    • Added Outrage to the LO set, making it mixed. I think this is superior, but I am open to leaving the pure special set in as a slash. Draco Meteor followed by Outrage is something very few pokemon like to take. The pure special set generally spams blizzard more, but this is easier to wall and more reliant on hail. All special with Ice Beam (currently on site) is just a bad idea.
    • (Reversed) Slashed Dragon Pulse with Focus Blast instead of HP Fire on the Scarf set – heatran is not quite that important. Also, this makes it easier to give the EV spread.
    • Added a hail focus to all of the sets.
    • Changed move order to emphasise more important moves
    • Revamped Overview, OO, and Checks and Counters

    And of course I'm going to rewrite large parts of the analysis to remove any grammar issues.

    [Overview]

    <p>Ah, Kyurem. The final member of the Tao Trio, languishing in the depths of BL as its brothers fight on in Ubers. Looking at Kyurem's stats, it's not exactly clear why; these stats are absolutely on par with those of the many Uber legendaries. Base 130 attacking stats stand out in particular. On top of this, Dragon and Ice are great offensive types, if together rather redundant. So, you ask again, why? Defensively, Ice typing is a severe liability, leaving Kyurem extremely vulnerable to entry hazards and common attacks. This cannot be stressed enough: Kyurem <em>hates entry hazards of all kinds</em>, which makes Rapid Spin support almost compulsory. This can be somewhat counteracted by Kyurem's fantastic natural bulk, though; Kyurem's defensive stats would be considered good for a wall, and can allow it to switch into Water-, Grass-, and Electric-types with ease. Unfortunately, however, there is more bad news: Kyurem's Speed stat, though above average, falls agonizingly short of Hydreigon, Haxorus, and a multitude of base 100s. On top of this, its movepool is rather lacking in comparison to other Dragons in OU; Kyurem lacks a good boosting move, as well as Earthquake and Fire moves. Altogether, this makes an outright sweep rather unlikely.</p>

    <p>So, what is Kyurem good for? What does it have over other Dragons? Well, Kyurem's main niche is the ability to function effectively in hail, in which it can fire off monstrous Blizzards. Additionally, Ice STAB can prove useful in eliminating Grass-types and OHKOing Dragonite through Multiscale. Don't forget that it has the best overall power, the best overall bulk, and that is isn't weak to Pursuit or U-turn. You can use it alongside other dragons too. So, although Kyurem is definitely not the best Dragon in OU, it definitely has a niche, and with the right support, can be very rewarding.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice
    move 1: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Dragon Pulse
    item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Given that Kyurem's STAB moves are very powerful and resisted by fairly few Pokemon, a Choice set is a very good option. A Choice Scarf will boost Kyurem's slightly disappointing Speed stat to one which beats out the entire unboosted metagame, letting it act as a revenge killer and late-game cleaner. Choice Specs, on the other hand, allows Kyurem to smash through defensive Pokemon with its monstrous power, but will often cause it to be forced out by faster Pokemon. Generally, spamming Blizzard in hail is Kyurem's best option, as this move is powerful and without drawbacks. Ice Beam is significantly weaker, and so will probably not act as Kyurem's main attacking move, but it does not necessitate hail. Draco Meteor might be even stronger than Blizzard, but the Special Attack drops will often force Kyurem out—not ideal for a Pokemon so weak to entry hazards. Nonetheless, this hits Fire- and Water-types a lot harder than Blizzard, and is fairly reliable outside of hail. Steel-type Pokemon resist all of these moves, however, so Focus Blast and Hidden Power Fire are great options for the remaining two slots. Specifically, Focus Blast hits Heatran and Tyranitar, while Hidden Power Fire hits Ferrothorn, Scizor, Forretress and Jirachi. Forgoing one of these moves for Dragon Pulse is viable, as this move is great for late-game cleaning due to its perfect accuracy and excellent coverage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The spread on this set might at first appear complicated, but is actually rather simple. Special Attack, and hence Kyurem's damage output, is maximized, while enough EVs (taking Hidden Power Fire into account) are allocated to Speed for Kyurem to outrun positive-natured base 90s and neutral-natured base 100s. The remaining EVs are dumped into HP, but the final 4 EVs would cause an extra point of damage from Stealth Rock, and so instead are allocated to Special Defense. Running a Modest nature is also a decent idea, to give Kyurem extra power behind its attacks; in this case you'll probably want to maximize Kyurem's Speed EVs, as this is required to outrun Jolly Gyarados.</p>

    <p>As far as team support is concerned, Abomasnow should be your first consideration. Kyurem is the only dragon that benefits from hail, its Blizzard being given perfect accuracy, and the opponent's Leftovers being cancelled. Rapid Spin support is also near-compulsory, due to Kyurem's massive entry hazard weakness and frequent switching. Starmie would be a decent choice, as the two have good defensive synergy. Also, you might want to consider Magnezone, as Kyurem has trouble with Steel-types, especially Scizor. Dugtrio could also trap Heatran and Tyranitar for Kyurem.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Life Orb
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Focus Blast
    move 4: Outrage
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Hasty / Mild
    evs: 36 Atk / 252 SpA / 220 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set makes full use of Kyurem's monstrous attacking stats to break through walls, opening up gaping holes in the opponent's team. Draco Meteor is phenomenally powerful, threatening all but Steel-types and dedicated special walls with an OHKO. Even the few Pokemon that survive will then have to contend with the possibility of Outrage; even with so little investment, this hits as hard as a maximum Attack neutral-natured Life Orb Flygon. Outrage will 2HKO all Blissey and will give Kyurem a good chance to break through Chansey in hail, or with entry hazards. Of course, both of these moves have large drawbacks, so Blizzard is a great move to have, providing a strong, reliable move to use in hail. It also hits Grass- and Flying-types super effectively; for example, Kyurem can easily OHKO Dragonite through Multiscale. Ice Beam is to be used on teams without hail, though of course this is to forgo one of Kyurem's main advantages over other Dragons. Outside of hail, Dragonite, Salamence, Hydreigon or Latios might prove a better choice due to their superior Speed and typing, though they do lack Kyurem's power and bulk. They might also deal with Steel-types more effectively; Kyurem is forced to use Hidden Power Fire, which covers Scizor, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, and Metagross, or Focus Blast, which covers Heatran and Tyranitar. All of the above can be problematic opponents for hail teams, but Hidden Power Fire is slightly preferred because Heatran and Tyranitar are not perfect counters anyway.</p>

    <p>All in all, this set is extremely powerful, but can be worn down rather quickly, given the Life Orb and Kyurem's crippling weakness to entry hazards. Notably, though, it isn't forced to switch as often as the choice set. This Kyurem only needs to come in once to cause havoc.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The spread on this set allows Kyurem to outrun positive-natured base 90s, taking into account the imperfect Speed IV required for Hidden Power Fire. Special Attack is then maximized to give Draco Meteor and Blizzard maximum punch, and the remainder is placed into Attack to boost the power of Outrage. A Hasty nature provides the required boost to Speed without hurting Kyurem's offenses; a Defense-hindering nature is chosen as most of Kyurem's resistances are specially oriented. Kyurem can quite easily switch into Water-, Electric-, and Grass-type Pokemon this way. A Naive nature could be used instead, to let Kyurem better take some physical priority moves, but Kyurem shouldn't be taking these anyway. A Mild nature can be used, alternatively, to give Kyurem more power, but Kyurem loses out against positive-natured base 90s and neutral-natured base 100s.</p>

    <p>The moves on this set are also flexible. You can run both Focus Blast and Hidden Power together by forgoing either Outrage or Blizzard. Running a fully special set with a Timid or Modest nature, moving the Attack EVs to HP, is viable. Kyurem will be left walled by Blissey and Chansey, and will be forced out after using Draco Meteor more often than not, but will be bulkier and will have better coverage against Steel-type. This set requires hail and Rapid Spin support more because it needs the power of Blizzard, and will be forced out after using Draco Meteor. Forgoing Blizzard leaves Kyurem without a powerful, reliable move, often limiting it to a single KO, but makes Kyurem a lot more difficult to counter. </p>

    <p>As far as teammates are concerned, Abomasnow is highly recommended, providing Kyurem with a 100% accurate Blizzard and cancelling the opponent's Leftovers. Rapid Spin support, for example from Starmie, is also recommended, due to Kyurem's (and Abomasnow's) huge entry hazard weakness. Trapping problematic opponents can also be effective; Dugtrio can trap Heatran and Tyranitar, and so is an excellent choice alongside Hidden Power Fire, while Magnezone traps Scizor, Forretress, and Jirachi, and is better used alongside Focus Blast.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Substitute + 3 Attacks
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Focus Blast
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Modest
    evs: 56 HP / 232 SpA / 216 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Rather than focusing solely on Kyurem's massive Special Attack stat, this set utilizes its above average bulk, a nice set of resistances, and its Pressure ability. Substitute is the crux of this set, as it eases prediction and prevents Kyurem from being crippled by status or revenge killed easily. Kyurem can make 101 HP Substitutes, which means that they will only fade after two hits of Seismic Toss or Night Shade. Weaker moves, such as Scald and Volt Switch, usually won't break the Substitute either thanks to Kyurem's resistances and above-average defenses. Dragon Pulse, Focus Blast, and Ice Beam or Blizzard give Kyurem as much coverage as possible, being able to hit everything for at least neutral damage. Of course, Blizzard is to be used when Kyurem is utilized on a hail team; otherwise, Ice Beam is the preferred option. There aren't a lot of Pokemon that can take repeated hits from Kyurem, and the ones that can won't be able to do much in return while it's behind a Substitute.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EVs grant Kyurem 405 HP, which allows it to switch into Stealth Rock four times without fainting, and also make bulky 101 HP Substitutes. The Speed investment allows Kyurem to outrun the likes of Dragonite and Adamant Lucario, while the remaining EVs are dumped into Special Attack to let Kyurem hit as hard as possible. Hidden Power Fire can be used instead of Focus Blast to hit Steel-types that are neutral to Fighting-type attacks much harder, but leaves Kyurem walled by the likes of Heatran. You'll need to add 4 extra EVs to Speed when using it due to the imperfect IV required. Hidden Power Electric and Psychic are options as well, but have limited usefulness, and Kyurem's STAB moves hit as hard neutrally as these moves do super effectively. Life Orb is an option if you prefer a boost in power, but comes at the cost of Kyurem's longevity.</p>

    <p>Abomasnow is probably the most appreciated teammate, as its ability, Snow Warning, allows Kyurem to spam the most powerful Blizzard in the game. Special walls such as Chansey and Blissey can cause this set to struggle; however, Kyurem will beat both with Toxic Spikes and will beat Chansey with hail up. Crucially, bulky Substitutes and Pressure will leave them unable to take Kyurem down without PP stalling. Tentacruel is a good Pokemon to set up Toxic Spikes, as it also has access to Rapid Spin and covers Kyurem's weaknesses. Scizor and Jirachi can take at least one of Kyurem's moves and KO it with their respective Steel-type STAB moves. Heatran or Skarmory can take on both of these Pokemon while also being able to set up entry hazards, making them solid teammates as well. Without a Substitute up, Kyurem is forced out by faster Pokemon with strong Fighting-type moves, such as Terrakion and Virizion. The aforementioned Skarmory can take these hits reasonably well, but bulky Psychic-types such as Reuniclus and Mew can work too.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Although Kyurem might have a very impressive Attack stat, its physically based movepool is barren. Outrage, Dragon Claw, Dragon Tail, Stone Edge are pretty much the extent of its physical attacking movepool. Hone Claws is a somewhat viable boosting move; it can boost the power of Kyurem's physical moves and give Blizzard respectable accuracy outside of hail. A bulky set with Substitute, Hone Claws, Protect, and either Dragon Claw or Dragon Tail is fairly notable, as it can easily dispatch Chansey and Blissey, and can wear other problematic opponents down with residual damage. Glaciate, Kyurem's signature move, is also viable; it can be used on the switch to slow down opponents before hitting them with the appropriate move. However, Substitute is usually the superior move, as it is also effective against slower opponents, and can be used to protect from status moves and priority attacks. The Life Orb set also performs fairly well in the lead position, so there is no real need to use a "lead" set featuring Glaciate and Endeavor. The entire concept of a lead is rather outdated anyway.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>When it comes to countering Kyurem, its mixed and Choice Specs sets are the ones to watch out for. Most of Kyurem's checks are Steel-types, as they resist Blizzard and Draco Meteor. Specially Defensive Jirachi is a generally a safe switch-in, but a Modest Choice Specs Hidden Power Fire has a decent chance to 2HKO, and with hail and entry hazards, even a Life Orb Hidden Power Fire might present problems. Bronzong and Metagross fall into a similar category, although they lack recovery and so can be worn down by repeated attacks. Heatran is also a decent counter to any set lacking Focus Blast, though offensive variants might still take around 50% from a Life Orb or Choice Specs Draco Meteor. Scizor is also a reasonable check, as it can switch into all but Hidden Power Fire and do 90% minimum to 0/0 Kyurem with Bullet Punch.</p>

    <p>Special walls also make good checks to Kyurem. Blissey and Chansey stop the Choice set cold, but Blissey fears a 2HKO from Outrage. Chansey, taking 40.9 - 48.2%, is at risk only in hail or with entry hazards. Neither of these can break through the Substitute set either, with Pressure burning through their Seismic Toss PP. However, they might be able to PP stall Kyurem out depending on the conditions; Toxic Spikes, or hail in the case of Chansey, will usually lead to defeat.<p/>

    <p>Finally, you can exploit Kyurem's slightly disappointing Speed to revenge kill it; just be wary of Kyurem's excellent natural bulk. A super effective, STAB attack, such as Infernape's or Terrakion's Close Combat, or a Dragon-type attack from Hydreigon, Latios, or Haxorus, should OHKO Kyurem comfortably.</p>
  2. Mynism

    Mynism

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    it ISNT outclassed by others dragons in general. What are you gonna compare it with ? Latios ? He is bulkier, has an Ice stab, better movepool, can go mixed and isnt weak to pursuit. Hydreigon ? Bulkier, Ice stab, can go mixed. It also isnt weak to Uturn unlike the 2 others. And as you might know, having an Ice stab on your team is REALLY useful with all the grass/dragons in the tier. Kyurem is also one of the few mons able to kill Dragonite with Multiscale activated and does have a niche outside hail.

    Edit : I do agree with slashing HP Fire on the Sub set, since this one is mainly used in Hail teams (because Sub) and bulky Scizor really annoys it (and usually, the whole team)
  3. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I actually agree with you with regard to it not being outclassed, but what belongs in the analysis is the general consensus rather than my own personal opinion. Still, maybe I should tone that down a bit.

    Ice STAB might be good, but it offers fairly little in addition to dragon stab, with the exception of Blizzard (this is why it has a niche in hail). I will admit that killing multiscale dragonite and some grass types is nice, though. Also, the bulk factor is largely offset by the entry hazard weakness. I mean yes, you can have spin support, but instead you could have, say, spikes support to make another dragon more powerful.

    And there is no way that it has a better movepool than Latios. Focus Blast is all it has, as opposed to Surf, Calm Mind, Recover, Trick etc. (also DD lol)

    So what is your opinion? Should Ice Beam get the slash on sets ahead of Blizzard?

    Anyway, I feel I ought to explain how I use Kyurem just so it is clear where I think it's useful. I like to use mixed Kyurem as an early-game wallbreaker on a dragon-themed team (which also features Abomasnow, but I would actually consider that peripheral). Generally you just attack repeatedly, only switching out if you absolutely have to. No entry hazards can bother you that way. The other two sets, on the other hand, I would use only on dedicated hail teams with spin support.
  4. Mynism

    Mynism

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    Ice beam gotta be the second slash since the Choice/LO sets are way less dedicated to Hail teams than the Sub + 3 Attacks set (which gotta be used only there). Btw mention that the Sub set beat Chansey under Hail.

    About Latios I was talking about offensive moves, but yea. I dont see Rapid Spin support mentioned. Is it normal ?

    And again, about it being outclassed, I think the only set that COULD be said as "outclassed" is the LO set if used outside Hail. Salamence is probably a better wallbreaker in this case.

    edit : the general consensus rather is - I hope you will agree with me again - generated by mostly people that doesnt "know" Kyurem
  5. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I find it difficult to believe that it reliably beats Chansey under hail without Toxic Spikes. Could you detail exactly how?

    And actually, Mixed Kyurem is a lot bulkier and more powerful than mixmence, so i've got to disagree there.

    edit: spin support is mentioned in every set and in the overview.

    edit2 - that makes sense. I''ll put that bit in once I've checked that it's right. Also, I presume the result very much depends on whether Chansey runs Wish or Softboiled, or both.
  6. Mynism

    Mynism

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    Ah, sorry lol. Actually Chansey suffers way more than Blissey because of Hail damages. It doesn't kill it on the switch, yea but Chansey cant do anything and will lose in the long run, while Blissey is more of a problem since it can use Seismic toss way more. Chansey just gotta heal more often, too often.
  7. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    OK Kyurem wins pretty much outright. Most importantly, pressure will burn up all of Chansey's seismic toss pp while Kyurem is still fairly healthy. Then essentially Chansey is just fighting against hail to keep itself alive.
  8. religiousjedi

    religiousjedi Destiny likes to use #The in everything.
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    That makes me :(

    At least it stayed as OO material. Good luck with fixing my errors!
  9. shrang

    shrang Go to your room
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    You may want to slash Modest onto the Choice set, as Modest and Specs and Blizzard is just absolutely sexy. Kyurem is hardly outspeeding a lot of other Pokemon, so you may as well have more power, IMO. With Modest, you're looking at an 82% chance to 2HKO CB Scizor with SR in play with Ice Beam. I'd also suggest adding a line about Scizor that "it can only switch into Specs once", since it something around 65.89% - 77.84% from a Specs Draco Meteor (Modest) and 56.56% - 66.47% from Blizzard. Whether that Scizor is alive or dead, it's pretty clear that it's gotten wrecked pretty badly =).
  10. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Absolutely agree with you there. Don't know why I didn't do that already. I myself wouldn't object to it being the primary option.
  11. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Excellent skeleton, jc104!

    I understand that HP Fire is useful against Steel-types, particularly Scizor, Jirachi, and Ferrothorn, but Focus Blast is mandatory, imo, to allow Kyurem to be as self-sufficient as possible. Without Focus Blast, not only Jirachi and the pink blobs, but Tyranitar and Heatran becomes headaches, and those mons are annoying to Hail teams. Scizor, Ferrothorn, and Jirachi are all worn down by absorbing Kyurem's strong special hits, so I'd rather have Focus Blast to have less things walling Kyurem.

    Thus, I would like to see Dragon Pulse be slashed with HP Fire instead of Focus Blast on the choice set and go Max HP / Max Spe. You may AC mention 32 HP / 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 220 Spe (your current spread speed creeps) as an alternative spread for HP Fire.

    Focus Blast on the Mixed set should also be slashed before HP Fire to break through Heatran without wasting a slot on Dugtrio. Go with 40 Atk / 252 SpA / 216 Spe with an AC mention to bump up its Speed if going HP Fire. Natures should be Hasty / Mild Nature, to preserve its more useful special defense.

    Hopefully, I can sign on irc tomorrow to talk with my other QC mates, but go with these changes for now, unless you have any qualms with them.
  12. Mynism

    Mynism

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    thinking again of this ... I think it has to be in AC. why ? because there isn't any slash that gives it equal coverage. HP Fire matter is ONLY to kill Bulky Scizor, which is the 1# hail team annoyer. But it can be done by Aboma too, for instance.

    on the other hand, Focus blast hunts down Ttar, Heatran and Lucario. Blizzard/Ice beam is one of the Kyurem point and is extremely strong offensively and Dragon Pulse let it handle Bulky Waters and Fire mons.

    this is why I think HP Fire belongs in AC
  13. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I have to disagree here, at least with reference to the mixed set.

    HP Fire is much more useful than focus blast on the mixed set. For a start it OHKOes Lucario much more accurately, so on this set, Focus Blast is more or less exclusively for Heatran and Tyranitar. These two Pokemon are not good counters to the mixed set anyway (Heatran fails to do enough damage in return, Tyranitar falls to Draco Meteor + Outrage). Scizor, Jirachi, Bronzong and Metagross, on the other hand, become excellent counters the moment you remove HP fire, all having the ability to completely destroy Kyurem with STAB, super effective moves. They are all threats to hail teams because of their typing and tendency to set up stealth rock, much the same as with Heatran (well, not Scizor but you know why Scizor is a pain). This Kyurem is not well suited to switching out and coming back later, wearing stuff down as I believe you said. Jirachi also heals itself, unlike Heatran and Tyranitar, so I don't really know how you are planning to wear it down anyway. Let's also not forget that Focus Blast is pretty much the most frustrating move that exists. When you say "2HKOed by Focus Blast" you are talking about winning less than 50% of the time.

    Oh and if anything I'd say that Dugtrio generally makes a better addition to a hail team than Magnezone (which is actually really unhelpful). You're not wasting a slot on it by any means, and it is certainly not required for getting past Heatran and Tyranitar.

    I'm not necessarily opposed to putting focus blast ahead of HP fire on the other sets, but let's make this clear. More things wall Focus Blast Kyurem than HP Fire Kyurem, not the other way round. The argument is that some things are more problematic than others, but ultimately this always depends on the team in question, and therefore in my view comes down to preference. Therefore HP fire must have at least a slash.

    The reason for Naive/Rash was to survive priority moves such as Scizor Bullet Punch (only just, but still), Conkeldurr Mach Punch, Lucario ExtremeSpeed etc. To be honest I think all four natures (Naive, Rash, Mild, Hasty) are equally viable, and so I'm not sure what to do there.

    And yeah I'll take a few speed evs off the scarf set. Momentary lapse there. Mind you, if HP fire is slashed first then the evs should account for it.

    edit: I think I may also mention the possibility of Draco Meteor/HP Fire/Focus Blast/Outrage just because it is virtually uncounterable, even if not recommended. Obviously you are not likely to get more than one KO with it, due to the lack of a consistent, drawback free move.
  14. Mynism

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    Focus Blast > Heatran, Ferrothorn and Tyranitar.
    HP Fire > Scizor. Ferrothorn dies from Ice stab + Focus blast and SDef Jirachi (the annoying one) doesn't mind HP Fire.
  15. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    HP Fire is clearly better against ferrothorn except for in the rain, where of course "Ice STAB + focus blast" will be wildly innacurate anyway.

    If you run a +SpA nature, SpD Jirachi takes 48% max from LO HP Fire, which is significant. With hail and hazards, you may well be KOing it. If you run a +Spe nature you still hit it much harder than you otherwise would and can easily kill a weakened one instead of allowing it to heal up. As for the other sets, you will be struggling to KO other variants of Jirachi without HP Fire.

    Focus Blast > Heatran, Tyranitar
    HP Fire > Jirachi, Scizor, Forretress, Metagross, Bronzong.

    Have a guess which number is larger. I'm not saying that the bottom list is more significant, but it is certainly larger.

    edit: I'm finding your posts a little confusing Mynism. Could you put a little more care into the organisation of your thoughts so everyone might understand better. It isn't that your opinion is not appreciated.
  16. Mynism

    Mynism

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    haha no problem I know. Let's do it set by set then !

    So, HP Fire. I think it has to be in AC for the Sub set. It's pretty simple. This wallbreaker set will more often than not be played in a balanced team, where it doesn't really need to OHKO everything but to have a nice coverage, good survivability and Hail support to be a real threat. Wish Jirachi doesn't care about non-LO HP Fire, Ferrothorn just takes too much from Blizzard/Focus Blast to pretend "countering" the set. HP Fire spot is in AC because using it only lure Bulky Roost Scizor which is obviously important for Hail team but the same job can be done by Abomasnow for instance. Using HP Fire over one of the 3 other moves will just reduce Kyurem coverage.

    About the 2 others set, while I think HP Fire is worth a slash on the LO set because OHKOes are important for it, because Jirachi has to worry about LO HP Fires and because it's awesome coupled with Outrage and Draco Meteor, it just seems not good enough for the choice set. The Choice Scarf one just wont revenge more things with it and Dragon Pulse is important as a late-game cleaning move and the Spec will just fire off powerfull stabs. Without even mentioning being locked in a 70 power fire move is awful and let 4/5 of the threats set-up.
  17. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    OK, so I talked this over with Delko and my QC mates, and we agreed that HP Fire vs Focus Blast is pick-your-poison type of situation, as you have mentioned. Delko did point out that generally Jirachi and Scizor are more problematic to Hail teams than Heatran, so we will keep HP Fire as the primary slash for Mix Kyurem.

    You can AC mention Hasty / Naive, since Kyurem should not be taking those SE priority moves, and it should most certainly NOT hinder its useful special defense in an attempt to take those moves better.

    Also remove HP Fire on Sub + 3 Atks, since unlike the Mix Kyurem set, this set can't do shit to Tyranitar or Heatran otherwise. Focus Blast's hit-or-miss problem is somewhat alleviated by having a Substitute for protection, too. HP Fire is an AC mention material here.

    Otherwise, good work, jc104!

    QC Approved (1/3)
  18. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    OK that sounds very reasonable. Thanks for the stamp.
  19. AccidentalGreed

    AccidentalGreed "Smogon friends" is an oxymoron.
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    QC Approved [2/3]

    Thanks for bearing with the wait; when you described Life Orb Outrage as being as strong as Life Orb Flygon’s, that unnerved me a bit. Now that I compared the damage output to Classic MixMence’s and did some calculations against some threats, I guess the investment’s alright, with Outrage making Kyurem an efficient lure for special walls. Outside of that, I see nothing wrong at the present.
  20. wilson46

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    QC APPROVED (3/3)
  21. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Thanks for the stamps. I'll get to writing this soon.
  22. bubbly

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    If it's not too late I feel there needs to be more mention of how Kyurem's typing lets it come in safely against pretty much every Water type as well as most Grass and Electrics. To me this is really the only thing which makes it worth using over Latios (yeah it can go mixed to beat the eggs but Lati has Psyshock / Trick) or even MixMence.
  23. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    I'm half way through writing this, and I can say that's already being mentioned in the mixed set as a reason for the - Def nature. Still, I'd say that's pretty much true of Latios and other dragons too.
  24. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Written. Apologies for the double post.

    Don't expect to find too many errors in the Substitute set because I only made a couple of changes to it.
  25. comatthew6

    comatthew6 Uther's Noble [Ball]Sack
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    GP 1/2 done.

    [Overview]</SPAN>

    <p>Ah, Kyurem. The final member of the Tao Trio, languishing in the depths of BL as its brothers fight on in Ubers. Looking at Kyurem's stats, it's not exactly clear why; these stats are absolutely on par with those of the many Uber legendarieslegendries. Base 130 attacking stats stand out in particular. On top of this, Dragon and Ice are great offensive types, if together rather redundant. So, you ask again, why? Defensively, Ice typing is a severe liability, leaving Kyurem extremely vulnerable to entry hazards and common attacks. This cannot be stressed enough: Kyurem <em>hates entry hazards of all kinds</em>, which makes Rapid Spin support almost compulsory. This can be somewhat counteracted by Kyurem's fantastic natural bulk, though; Kyurem's defensive stats would be considered good for a wall, and can allow it to switch into Water-, Grass-, and Electric-types with ease. Unfortunately, however, there is more bad news: Kyurem's Speed stat, though above average, falls agonizingly agonisingly short of Hydreigon, Haxorus, and a multitude of base 100s. On top of this, its movepool is rather lacking in comparison to other Dragons in OU; Kyurem lacks a good boosting move, as well as Earthquake and Fire moves. Altogether, this makes an outright sweep rather unlikely.</p>

    <p>So, what is Kyurem good for? What does it have over other Dragons? Well, Kyurem's main niche is the ability to function effectively in hail, in which it can fire off monstrous Blizzards. Additionally, Ice STAB can prove useful in eliminating Grass-types and OHKOing Dragonite through Multiscale. Don't forget that it has the best overall power, the best overall bulk, and that is isn't weak to Pursuit or U-turn. You can use it alongside other dragons too. So, although Kyurem is definitely not the best Dragon in OU, it definitely has a niche, and with the right support, can be very rewarding.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Choice
    move 1: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Dragon Pulse
    item: Choice Scarf / Choice Specs
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 4 (space) SpD / 220 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Given that Kyurem's STAB moves are very powerful and resisted by fairly few Pokemon, a Choice set is a very good option. A Choice Scarf will boost Kyurem's slightly disappointing Speed stat to one which beats out the entire unboosted metagame, letting it act as a revenge killer and late-game cleaner. Choice Specs, on the other hand, allows Kyurem to smash through defensive Pokemon with its monstrous power, but will often cause it to be forced out by faster Pokemon. Generally, spamming Blizzard in hail is Kyurem's best option, as this move is powerful and without drawbacks. Ice Beam is significantly weaker, and so will probably not act as Kyurem's main attacking move, but it does not necessitate hail. Draco Meteor may be even stronger than Blizzard, but the Special Attack drops will often force Kyurem out—not ideal for a Pokemon so weak to entry hazards. Nonetheless, this hits Fire- and Water-types a lot harder than Blizzard, and is fairly reliable outside of hail. Steel-type Pokemon resist all of these moves, however, so Focus Blast and Hidden Power Fire are both great options in the last slotchosen. Specifically, Focus Blast hits Heatran and Tyranitar, while Hidden Power Fire hits Ferrothorn, Scizor, Forretress and Jirachi. Forgoing one of these moves for Dragon Pulse is viable, as this move is great for late-game cleaning due to its perfect accuracy and excellent neutral coverage.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The spread on this set may at first appear complicated, but is actually rather simple. Special Attack, and hence Kyurem's damage output, is maximizedmaximised, while enough EVs (taking Hidden Power Fire into account) are allocated to Speed for Kyurem to outrun positive-natured base 90s and neutral-natured base 100s. The remaining EVs are dumped into HP, but the final 4 EVs would cause an extra point of damage from Stealth Rock, and so instead are allocated to Special Defense. Running a Modest nature is also a decent idea, giving Kyurem extra power behind its attacks; in this case you'll probably want to maximizemaximise Kyurem's Speed EVs, as this is required to outrun Jolly Gyarados.</p>

    <p>As far as team support is concerned, Abomasnow should be your first consideration. Kyurem is the only dragon that benefits from hail, its Blizzard being given perfect accuracy, and the opponent's Leftovers being cancelled. Rapid Spin support is also near-compulsory, due to Kyurem's massive entry hazard weakness and frequent switching. Starmie would be a decent choice, as the two have good defensive synergy. Also, you might want to consider Magnezone, as Kyurem has trouble with Steel-types, especially Scizor. Dugtrio could also trap Heatran and Tyranitar for Kyurem.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Life Orb
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 3: Hidden Power Fire / Focus Blast
    move 4: Outrage
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Hasty / Mild
    evs: 36 Atk / 252 SpA / 220 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set makes full use of Kyurem's monstrous attacking stats to break through walls, opening up gaping holes in the opponent's team. Draco Meteor is phenomenally powerful, threatening all but Steel-types and dedicated special walls with an OHKO. Even the few Pokemon that survive will then have to contend with the possibility of Outrage; even with so little investment, this hits as hard as a max Attack neutral natured Life Orb Flygon. Outrage will 2HKO all Blissey and will give Kyurem a good chance to break through Chansey in hail, or with entry hazards. Of course, both of these moves have large drawbacks, so Blizzard is a great move to have, providing a strong, reliable move to use in hail. It also hits Grass- and Flying-types super effectively; for example, Kyurem can easily OHKO Dragonite through Multiscale. Ice Beam is to be used on teams without hail, though of course this is to forgo one of Kyurem's main advantages over other Dragons. Outside of hail, Dragonite, Salamence, Hydreigon or Latios may prove a better choice due to their superior Speed and typing, though they do lack Kyurem's power and bulk. They also may deal with Steel-types more effectively; Kyurem is forced to use Hidden Power Fire, which covers Scizor, Forretress, Ferrothorn, Jirachi, and Metagross, or Focus Blast, which covers Heatran and Tyranitar. All of the above can be problematic opponents for hail teams, but Hidden Power Fire is slightly preferred because Heatran and Tyranitar are not perfect counters anyway.</p>
    (break)
    <p>All in all, this set is extremely powerful, but may be worn down rather quickly, given the Life Orb recoil and Kyurem's crippling weakness to entry hazards because this set does not have to switch as often because it really only needs to switch in once to wreak havoc. . Notably, though, it isn't forced to switch as often as the choice set. This Kyurem only needs to come in once to cause havoc.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The spread on this set allows Kyurem to outrun positive-natured base 90s, taking into account the imperfect Speed IV required for Hidden Power Fire. Special Attack is then maximizedmaximised to give Draco Meteor and Blizzard maximum punch, and the remainder is placed into Attack to boost the power of Outrage. A Hasty nature provides the required boost to Speed without hurting Kyurem's offenses; a Defense-hindering nature is chosen as most of Kyurem's resistances are specially-(add hyphen)oriented. Kyurem can quite easily switch into Water-, Electric-, and Grass-type Pokemon this way. A Naive nature could be used instead, letting Kyurem take some physical priority moves better, but Kyurem shouldn't be taking these anyway. A Mild nature can be used, alternatively, to give Kyurem more power, but Kyurem loses out against positive-natured base 90s and neutral-natured base 100s.</p>

    <p>The moves on this set are also flexible. You can run both Focus Blast and Hidden Power togethereither by forgoing either Outrage or Blizzard. Running a fully special set with a Timid or Modest nature, moving the Attack EVs to HP, is viable. Kyurem will be left walled by Blissey and Chansey, and will be forced out after using Draco Meteor more often than not, but will be bulkier and will have better coverage against Steel-type. This set requires hail and Rapid Spin support more because it needs the power of Blizzard, and will be forced out after using Draco Meteor. Forgoing Blizzard leaves Kyurem without a powerful, reliable move, often limiting it to a single KO, but makes Kyurem a lot more difficult to counter. </p>

    <p>As far as teammates are concerned, Abomasnow is highly recommended, providing Kyurem with a 100% accurate Blizzard and cancelling the opponent's Leftovers. Rapid Spin support, for example from Starmie, is also recommended, due to Kyurem's (and Abomasnow's) huge entry hazard weakness. Trapping problematic opponents can also be effective; Dugtrio can trap Heatran and Tyranitar, and so is an excellent choice alongside Hidden Power Fire, while Magnezone traps Scizor, Forretress, and Jirachi, better used alongside Focus Blast.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Substitute + 3 Attacks
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Focus Blast
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Modest
    evs: 56 HP / 232 SpA / 216 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Rather than focusing solely on Kyurem's massive Special Attack stat, this set utilizes its above average bulk, a nice set of resistances, (comma) and its Pressure ability. Substitute is the crux of this set, as it eases prediction and prevents Kyurem from being crippled by status or revenge killed easily. Kyurem can make 101 HP Substitutes, which means that they will only fade after two hits of Seismic Toss or Night Shade. Weaker moves, such as Scald and Volt Switch, usually won't break the Substitute either thanks to said resistances and Kyurem's above-average defenses. Dragon Pulse, Focus Blast, and Ice Beam or Blizzard give Kyurem as much coverage as possible, being able to hit everything for at least neutral damage. Of course, Blizzard is to be used when Kyurem is utilized on a hail team; otherwise, Ice Beam is the preferred option. There aren't a lot of Pokemon that can take repeated hits from Kyurem, and the ones that can won't be able to do much in return while it's behind a Substitute.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EVs grant Kyurem 405 HP, which allows it to switch into Stealth Rock four times without fainting, and also make bulky 101 HP Substitutes. The Speed investment allows Kyurem to outrun the likes of Dragonite and Adamant Lucario, while the remaining EVs are dumped into Special Attack to let Kyurem hit as hard as possible. Hidden Power Fire can be used instead of Focus Blast to hit Steel-types that are neutral to Fighting-type attacks much harder, but leaves Kyurem walled by the likes of Heatran. You'll need to add 4 extra EVs to Speed when using it due to the imperfect IV required. Hidden Power Electric and Psychic are options as well, but have limited usefulness, and Kyurem's STAB moves hit as hard neutrally as these moves do super effectively. Life Orb is an option if you prefer a boost in power, but comes at the cost of Kyurem's longevity.</p>

    <p>Abomasnow is probably the most appreciated teammate, as its ability, Snow Warning, allows Kyurem to spam the most powerful Blizzard in the game. Special walls such as Chansey and Blissey can cause this set to struggle; however, Kyurem will beat both with Toxic Spikes and will beat Chansey with hail up. Crucially, bulky Substitutes and Pressure will leave them unable to take Kyurem down without PP stalling. Tentacruel is a good Pokemon to set up Toxic Spikes, as it also has access to Rapid Spin and covers Kyurem's weaknesses. Scizor and Jirachi can take at least one of Kyurem's moves and KO it with their respective Steel-type STAB moves. Heatran or Skarmory can take on both of these Pokemon while also being able to set up entry hazards, making them solid teammates as well. Without a Substitute up, Kyurem is forced out by faster Pokemon with strong Fighting-type moves, such as Terrakion and Virizion. The aforementioned Skarmory can take these hits reasonably well, but bulky Psychic-types such as Reuniclus and Mew can work too.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Although Kyurem may have a very impressive Attack stat, its physically-(hyphen)based movepool is barren. Outrage, Dragon Claw, Dragon Tail, Stone Edge are pretty much the extent of its physical attacking movepool. Hone Claws is a somewhat viable boosting move; it can boost the power of Kyurem's physical moves and give Blizzard respectable accuracy outside of hail. A bulky set with Substitute, Hone Claws, Protect, and Dragon Claw or Dragon Tail is fairly notable, as it can easily dispatch Chansey and Blissey, and can wear other problematic opponents down with residual damage. Glaciate, Kyurem's signature move, is also viable; it can be used on the switch to slow down opponents before hitting them with the appropriate move. However, Substitute is usually the superior move, as it is also effective against slower opponents, and can be used to protect from status moves and priority attacks. The Life Orb set also performs fairly well in the lead position, so there is no real need to use a "lead" set featuring Glaciate and EndeavorEndeavour. The entire concept of a lead is rather outdated anyway.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>When it comes to countering Kyurem, its mixed and Choice Specs sets are the ones to watch out for. Most of Kyurem's checks are Steel-types, as they resist Blizzard and Draco Meteor. Specially Defensive Jirachi is a generally a safe switch-in, but a Modest Choice Specs Hidden Power Fire has a decent chance to 2HKO, and with hail and entry hazards, even a Life Orb Hidden Power Fire may present problems. Bronzong and Metagross fall into a similar category, although they lack recovery and so can be worn down by repeated attacks. Heatran is also a decent counter to any set lacking Focus Blast, though offensive variants may still take around 50% from a Life Orb or Choice Specs Draco Meteor. Scizor is also a reasonable check, as it can switch into all but Hidden Power Fire and do 90% minimum to 0/0 Kyurem with Bullet Punch.</p>

    <p>Special walls also make good checks to Kyurem. Blissey and Chansey stop the Choice set cold, but Blissey fears a 2HKO from Outrage. Chansey, taking 40.9-48.2%, is at risk only in hail or with entry hazards. Neither of these can break through the Substitute set either, and Pressure will burnburning through their Seismic Toss PP, though they may be able to PP stall Kyurem out depending on the conditions; Toxic Spikes, or hail in the case of Chansey, will usually lead to defeat.<p/>

    <p>Finally, you can exploit Kyurem's slightly disappointing Speed to revenge kill it; just be wary of Kyurem's excellent natural bulk. A STAB, super effective attack, (remove comma) with STABsuch as Infernape's or Terrakion's Close Combat, or a dragon attack from Hydreigon, Latios, or Haxorus, should OHKO Kyurem comfortably.</p>

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