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Kyurem (Update) [QC 2/3]

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Halcyon., Sep 19, 2013.

  1. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]

    Kyurem has a badass shiny



    [Overview]

    <p>It may seem odd that Kyurem is a rare sight in OU. It has fantastic offensive typing, and it's attacking stats definitely make sure it can use it effectively. Well, the reason is quite simple: Kyurem-B exists. It's Zekrom-fused counterpart outclasses it in many ways, meaning that Kyurem's seemingly amazing mixed stats go to waste when compared to Kyurem-B's 170/120 attacking stats. Any mixed set that Kyurem can run, Kyurem-B runs more efficiently. And because the mixed sets are often considered the most effective, Kyurem is left in the dust. Beyond that, Kyurem's Ice typing, while great offensively, is a severe liability defensively, leaving it vulnerable to all entry hazards and the most common forms of priority, Mach Punch and Bullet Punch. This cannot be stressed enough: Kyurem hates entry hazards of all kinds, which makes Rapid Spin support almost compulsory. Luckily, Kyurem has great bulk, and it's Dragon typing allows it to switch into Water-, Grass-, and Electric-types with ease. Unfortunately, Kyurem's Speed stat falls agonizingly short of the multitude of base 100s, meaning it is easily revenge killed if not behind a Substitute.</p>

    <p>What it does have over other Dragons is a few attributes that that set it apart from Kyurem-B. The first is its ability: Pressure. While it may seem inferior to Kyurem-B's Terravolt, Pressure allows Kyurem to run a more effective SubRoost set, PP stalling Gyro Ball and Close Combat from the likes of Ferrothorn and Terrakion, respectively. The second advantage it has is its Special Attack, meaning that purely special sets are more effective on Kyurem. When compared to the other Dragon-types in the tier, Kyurem boasts the ability to function effectively in hail, in which it can fire off monstrous Blizzards. Additionally, Ice STAB can prove useful in eliminating Grass-types and OHKOing Dragonite through Multiscale. Highest Special Attack of any Dragon in OU thanks to its ability to run Modest (something Latios cannot), and that it isn't weak to Pursuit or U-turn. Overall, Kyurem is definitely not the best Dragon in OU, but it has a niche, and with the right support, can be very rewarding.</p>

    [SET]
    name: SubRoost
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Ice Beam
    move 4: Earth Power
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Modest
    evs: 56 HP / 216 SpA / 236 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Rather than focusing solely on Kyurem's massive Special Attack stat, this set utilizes its above-average bulk, its nice set of resistances, and, most importantly, its Pressure ability. Pressure is the biggest advantage Kyurem has over Kyurem-B, and it is part of what makes the SubRoost set so dangerous. Stalling out twice as much PP means that low PP moves, such as Close Combat, Stone Edge, and Gyro Ball can be outlasted by continued Substitutes and Roosting. Some of the Pokémon that one might expect to beat Kyurem, such as Bronzong, actually can't when Pressure is taken into account. Substitute eases prediction and prevents Kyurem from being crippled by status or revenge killed easily. Kyurem's high HP allows it to make 101 HP Substitutes, or ones that will only fade after two hits of Seismic Toss or Night Shade, allowing it to stall out the likes of Blissey and Chansey. Weaker moves, such as Scald and Volt Switch, will almost never break the Substitute either thanks to Kyurem's resistances and above-average defenses, meaning it makes a great counter to rain teams, beating Ferrothorn, Politoed, Tentacruel, and Rotom-W without much difficulty.</p>

    <p>Though this set might be less powerful than some of the others, it should not be forgotten that Kyurem has an impressive base 130 Special Attack stat and very good neutral coverage. Its STAB move, Ice Beam, is its staple attack, and hits all Dragon-type Pokemon, as well as Flying-types that avoid Earth Power, (bar opposing Kyurem) super-effectively. Earth Power is an excellent coverage move in either case, hitting every Steel-type but Skarmory, which is covered by Ice Beam, and Bronzong, which can be dealt with by PP stalling.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The given EVs grant Kyurem 405 HP, which allows it to make 101 HP Substitutes, lets it switch into Stealth Rock 4 times, and give it enough Speed to outrun Jolly Mamoswine and Dragonite, as well as Adamant Lucario and Landorus-T. The remaining EVs are dumped into Special Attack to let Kyurem hit as hard as possible. If outrunning Adamant Haxorus, Modest Hydreigon, and Jolly Landorus-T is a major concern, you can use a Timid nature instead, but this set is already rather weak compared to other Kyurem sets. Focus Blast and Dragon Pulse also provide neutral coverage, and Dragon Pulse can hit opposing Kyurem and Kingdra for super effective damage, as well as Rotom-W for neutral. Meanwhile, Focus Blast lets Kyurem beat Tyranitar and Ferrothorn more easily. However, the low Accuracy and PP on Focus Blast makes it an inferior choice, and none of the previously mentioned Pokemon can do much to Kyurem while behind a Substitute anyway. Life Orb is an option if you prefer a boost in power, offering a chance to 2HKO specially defensive Jirachi and Choice Band Scizor with Earth Power, but the residual damage will build up too fast, causing Kyurem to use Roost far more often than without. </p>

    <p>As far as teammates are concerned, you might wish to consider Abomasnow, as its ability, Snow Warning, allows Kyurem to spam one of the most powerful Blizzards in the game. The extra hail damage is also very helpful when stalling, for example allowing Kyurem to beat Chansey. Be warned, however, that Blizzard has lower PP than the alternative moves, and Kyurem will usually be stalling out opposing Pokemon, so most often maximum PP possible is preferable to the added power. Toxic Spikes are also highly helpful, as they let Kyurem beat Blissey and a whole host of other Pokemon with recovery. Tentacruel is a good Pokemon to set up Toxic Spikes, as it also has access to Rapid Spin and covers Kyurem's weaknesses. Rapid Spin is crucial, since Kyurem is weak to every kind of entry hazard (as is Abomasnow). If not using Tentacruel, you should consider another Rapid Spin user such as Starmie, which can hit Blissey for nice damage with Life Orb Psyshock. Scizor, and some other Steel-types depending on your choice of coverage move, can take at least one of Kyurem's moves and KO it with their STAB moves. Therefore, Magnezone is a decent choice, since it can trap and KO Steel-types, including Scizor and Jirachi.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Blizzard / Ice Beam
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Focus Blast
    move 4: Earth Power / Roost
    item: Choice Specs / Life Orb
    nature: Timid / Modest
    evs: 32 HP / 252 SpA / 224 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set aims to make the best use of Kyurem's excellent Special Attack without sacrificing too much of its durability or coverage. The sheer power of Choice Specs Draco Meteor coming from a Modest base 130 Special Attack is enough to differentiate this set from Kyurem-B and Latios, the main competition Kyurem faces. Blizzard is Kyurem's main STAB move in hail, as it is very powerful, virtually drawback-free, and has decent coverage. Ice Beam is significantly weaker, but is clearly the superior option if you are using Kyurem outside of hail. Draco Meteor, on the other hand, is Kyurem's ace in the hole. Offering enormous power and near-perfect coverage, it hits any Fire- or Water-type that might attempt to take Kyurem's Blizzard. Unfortunately, its side-effect will usually force Kyurem out, which is far from ideal for a Pokemon so weak to entry hazards. Focus Blast and Earth Power provide coverage on Steel-types and Tyranitar. Earth Power notably falls short against Ferrothorn and Tyranitar, but hits Jirachi much harder and is significantly more accurate. Roost should only be used if Life Orb is the item of choice, and allows Kyurem to recover off damage from Life Orb and entry hazards.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The EVs on this set allow Kyurem to outrun positive-natured Landorus-T, maximize Special Attack, and then give Kyurem a touch more bulk so that it can take better advantage of Roost. A Modest nature with 236 Speed EVs is an option to outrun positive-natured base 80s, such as Mamoswine and Venusaur, but Kyurem will instead only outrun neutral-natured Landorus-T, and will also miss out on neutral-natured Hydreigon and Haxorus. The only other notable move option is Hidden Power Fire, which will deal great damage to Scizor, Forretress, and Ferrothorn, but will leave Kyurem walled by Tyranitar and Heatran. Outrage is also a possible option to use because Kyurem has fantastic mixed attacking stats, and Outrage is its best option for hitting Blissey. However, usually Kyurem-B does a better job with mixed attacking sets.</p>

    <p>Chansey and Blissey are extremely annoying for this set to face, as they wall Kyurem completely and can cripple it with Thunder Wave or Toxic. You might want to find a way to lure them in, for example Tricking them with Latios or Rotom-W. As Scizor and Jirachi can also be problematic, support from Magnezone can be considered. Abomasnow is as always a good partner for Kyurem, as it allows an accurate Blizzard and provides useful residual damage on the opponent. A Rapid Spin user is also greatly appreciated, due to Kyurem's severe entry hazard weakness; Starmie and Tentacruel are therefore both good partners.</p>


    [Other Options]

    <p>Although Kyurem might have a very impressive Attack stat, just about every physical or mixed set is outclassed by Kyurem-B. Even if it wanted to run a mixed set, its physical movepool is barren. Hone Claws is a somewhat viable boosting move; it can boost the power of Kyurem's physical moves and give Blizzard respectable accuracy outside of hail. A bulky set with Substitute, Hone Claws, Roost, and either Dragon Claw or Dragon Tail is fairly notable as it can easily dispatch Chansey and Blissey, and can wear other problematic opponents down with residual damage. However, these are almost completely outclassed by Kyurem-B, so there is little reason to use them outside of the utility provided by Pressure. Glaciate, Kyurem's signature move, is also viable; it can be used on the switch to slow down opponents before hitting them with the appropriate move. However, Substitute is usually the superior move, as it is also effective against slower opponents, and can protect Kyurem from status moves and priority attacks. A Life Orb set also performs fairly well in the lead position, so there is no real need to use a "lead" set featuring Glaciate and Endeavor. The entire concept of a lead is rather outdated anyway.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Special walls also make good checks to Kyurem. Blissey and Chansey stop the Choice sets cold, but Blissey fears a 2HKO from Outrage. Chansey, taking 40.9-48.15%, is at risk only in hail or with entry hazards. Additionally, if Chansey has Toxic Spikes support against Kyurem, even the SubRoost set will lose to it. Tyranitar can take pretty much anything but Focus Blast, although it does struggle to take Draco Meteor + Outrage from the mixed set as well. It will remove hail too, rendering Blizzard inaccurate.</p>

    <p>Most of Kyurem's other checks are Steel-types, as they resist Blizzard and Draco Meteor&mdash;indeed, the majority of common Steel-types can check the Choice Scarf set. Bronzong is a decent check to Kyurem, resisting both of its STABs and being immune to Earth Power means it easily beats offensive variants of Kyurem. At full health, however, it's worth noting that the SubRoost set can stall Bronzong out of Gyro Ball PP. Scizor is also a very strong check, fearing only Choice Specs Blizzard, and dealing 90% minimum with Choice Band-boosted Bullet Punch. Specially defensive Jirachi is a reasonable switch-in, but a Life Orb Earth Power has a chance to 2HKO, and with hail and entry hazards, even the SubRoost set can present problems.</p>

    <p>Finally, you can exploit Kyurem's slightly disappointing Speed to revenge kill it; just be wary of Kyurem's excellent natural bulk. A super effective STAB attack, such as Infernape's or Terrakion's Close Combat, or a Dragon-type attack from Hydreigon, Latios, or Haxorus, should OHKO Kyurem comfortably.</p>
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 18, 2014
    Bossness and unfixable like this.
  2. Shayhok

    Shayhok

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    I don't have official input, but on the SubRoost set, most people now are running 56 HP EVs, moving 4 from SAtk. This allows Kyurem to sub 4 times in a row from full HP when not running Leftovers / in sand (though it dies), allowing it to stall out many 8 PP attacks like Gyro Ball or Hydro Pump. It's a small change, but the extra sub allows Kyurem to utilize the ability that seperates it from Kyurem-B. Just something I noticed when I was clicking around.
  3. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    For the moment, remove the Choice Scarf set. If we decide to put it back we will let you know. And yeah, do what Shayhok said.
  4. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Tbh i always had issues with Ice beam being slashed over blizzard on the offensive sets. Yes i know its the best option outside of hail but, seriously, why would i ever use offensive kyurem outside of hail when i could just use latios. Offensive kyurem niche is stab blizzard spam coming out of a huge base 130 sp atk, no other dragon can boast such a ridiculous powerful move with no drawbacks. The ability to ohko tyranitar with focus blast is also huge and unique, so i see no reason why earth power is slashed with it. If youre not using those options then theres little reason to use offensive kyurem. About subroost rem, imo focus blast has no place there, 8 pp is terrible for a set that aims to stall the opponent.
  5. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    Earth Power is useful on offensive sets if your team has problems with Jirachi. Otherwise, Focus Blast is better, but that's why it's slashed first :P As for Ice Beam versus Blizzard, you make a fair point, but as it stands Ice Beam is slashed first simply for the reason you already said: if you are using it outside hail. And actually, SubRoost Kyurem makes a great addition to rain teams as well, so it makes sense to run Ice Beam there.
    Kingler12345 likes this.
  6. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    Why are we even keeping attacking Kyurem? Kyu-B has better stats and only a 10 base stat difference in SpAtk. I don't see any reason not to delete that.
  7. Worldtour

    Worldtour aka Swamp-Rocket
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    So because its more powerful its outclassed because it has a lower defense and, dare I say it, attack? That really doesn't make much sense :|
  8. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345 COOKIE COOKIE COOKIE STARTS WITH C
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    Kyurem-B can go mixed. I honestly don't see why this is a set because Kyurem-B is about the same special attack while having the ability to use its excellent attack. Whatever, I don't get to decide what happens.
  9. SmashBrosBrawl

    SmashBrosBrawl

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    Yes i do agree earth power is useful. But imo it should not be slashed with focus blast, only with roost. Focus blast is crucial to lure in and eliminate ttar and gives kyurem another feat that latios cannot accomplish. My main point about ice beam vs blizzard is that theres no reason to use offensive kyurem outside of hail. Yes, subroost kyurem can be used in pratically any team you want to great and unique effect and definitely appreciates ice beam consistency, but offensive kyurem simply doesnt have much to separate it from latios. These are focus blast and stab blizzard, which is why i feel these should not be slashed with anything on the offensive set.
  10. Plus

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    Because a full out special set plays different from a Mixed set. That's probably common sense, as well as the fact that going mixed will affect the nature you choose (Naive/Hasty), the offensive investment you use, and the support as well. That Kyurem set in particular does better against specially defensive Jirachi variants better than Kyurem-B if it runs Earth Power, and is also a better Blizzard spammer as well. Scald burns don't completely screw over this Kyurem as opposed to a physically based mixed Kyurem-B or the Substitute attacker, both of which are some of the most common Kyu-b sets in the game.

    On a different note, maybe it's just me -- but I really hate when every analysis suggests running a trapper like Gothitelle or Dugtrio to everything. Just because somethng is weak to Tyranitar doesn't mean you run Dugtrio. There's a reason why you don't slap it on every team; it's because it blows in stuff like hail teams (that breaks its Focus Sash ffs), and most archetypes of teams in general. Gliscor and Landorus can help against Terrakion, Scizor, and Tyranitar and are more useful to Hail teams because of their Fighting resistance. Are you really going to run Sash Dugtrio (its only viable set) with a freaking Abomasnow?

    QCers can chime in on this since I'm not QC, but it's like every teammate section of an analysis is like "omg! this is weak to heatran! use dugtrio!" without any consideration of how it would fare in a PLAYSTYLE that you'd usually use the set in (hail, in Kyurem's case).

    Fuck Dugtrio.
    Shurtugal, Jukain, Seth Vilo and 2 others like this.
  11. Halcyon.

    Halcyon. Come on, she's not burned; she's just gone.
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    Yeah I totally agree, Plus. Just about any Pokémon can benefit from a trapper, so it's kind of useless to mention Dugtrio here, especially because you will NEVER see Dugtrio on hail. I could see it being useful on a rain team with Tornadus, Kyurem, and Dugtrio, but that's 4/6 team members already, so I really don't think it's necessary to mention it. I'll be sure to edit that out.
    Shurtugal and Plus like this.
  12. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    I prefer Choice Spes slashed first on the second set, and Modest slashed before Timid as well. The Specs set is the one that differentiates Kyurem from Kyurem-B the most, as it takes advantage of the 10 SpA difference to its fullest. Here are some calcs with Modest Choice Specs:
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Focus Blast vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Chansey: 276-326 (39.2 - 46.3%) -- 85.94% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 180 HP / 0 SpD Tyranitar in sand: 252-297 (65.28 - 76.94%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and even without it most of the time
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Heatran: 178-210 (55.1 - 65.01%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock and weather
    • 252+ SpA Choice Specs Kyurem Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 220+ SpD Jellicent: 268-316 (66.33 - 78.21%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    Not to mention that Specs Blizzard + SR + Hail is almost impossible to tank for any non 4x resist or Tyranitar. Modest because the power boost is nice and outside of missing on outspeeding neutral Kyu-B there isn't anything else you are missing on anyway iirc.
    Last edited: Sep 21, 2013
  13. Halcyon.

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    Yeah I totally agree, alexwolf. I only had Life Orb slashed first because the current writing goes along with Life Orb. I'm slowly making my way down, and when I get to that set, I will make sure to talk mainly about Specs.
  14. Shurtugal

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    Scarf Kyu is not that bad really. Its special attack is higher so it can fire off better special attacks than KyuB. What does Scarf KyuB accomplish that Scarf Kyu isn't? KyuB is usually a mix scarfer while Kyu is solely specially oriented. At the very least, the buff in SpA allows it to fire stronger Dracos and for Ice Beam to KO things like 30% Jira for late game. Deserves a mention imo


    Also Scarf Blizzards are p. cool fuck Terrakion
  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    Scarf Kyu-B can revenge kill Pokemon such as Calm Mind Latias, Calm Mind Keldeo, and Dragon Dance Gyarados, while also having the option to clean up way better than Kyurem with Outrage. Kyu-B doesn't even need to invest in its Atk to use physical attcks, so its SpA will only be 20 points lower than Kyurem. The only way that Choice Scarf Kyurem is going to have a set is if i see enough important OHKOes that Kyurem gets with the extra SpA and Kyurem-B doesn't. Otherwise an AC/OO mention will be enough.
  16. Jukain

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    there's no reason we can't approve scarf kyurem on its own merit

    it's a damn good choice for a mon, and is distinct from kyu-b. it might be similar and even partially outclassed, but it is more than a solid contender on its own.
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  17. asterat

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    wrong. Stop this Kyurem-B nonsense. Yes, Kyurem sees little use for a reason, but this is not said reason.
  18. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    It isn't the only reason, but it is definitely one of the biggest reasons that Kyurem is a very rare sight in OU these days. It's much more of a niche Pokemon now that it faces stiff competition from Kyurem-B in a lot of its roles. Although it does have other flaws that kept it from being OU even before Kyurem-B dropped, the overview makes it pretty clear that Kyurem-B isn't the only reason it fails to see hardly any usage. You'd be wrong in saying that Kyurem-B isn't a defining factor in Kyurem's poor usage though, and it should be stressed in the Overview. This whole analysis is getting a revamp because of Kyurem-B outclassing it in a lot of roles.
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  19. Halcyon.

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    The entire reason we're doing this update is because Kyurem-B isn't mentioned as the main reason for Kyurem's lack of usage. How can you argue that Kyurem-B isn't the main contributing factor to Kyurem seeing little to no usage? Kyurem would be able to run most of the sets that Kyurem-B runs now if it were still Uber (that's why we're removing the mixed set, for example). Obviously it wouldn't run them as effectively, but 130/130 offenses is perfect for a mixed attacker. I'm not really sure how you can dispute that. The overview also mentions all the other reasons that Kyurem isn't used (its weakness to Stealth Rock, poor defensive typing, low speed, etc.), so once again, I don't see your point.
  20. LilOuOn

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    I think that the LO mixed set should not be deleted from here...I will make a RMT with it because the team is really good. It's surprise factor is incredible and it doesn't matter if Kyurem-B is OU imo, still works with this one.
  21. Magcargo

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    There is no point of not deleting it because 90% of the time, Kyurem-b will do it better.
  22. BKC

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    i would relegate life orb to ac on the subroost set, it definitely isnt good enough to warrant a slash.

    also life orb should be the primary item on the offensive set, i think it is much better than choice specs. being able to roost with something as bulky as kyurem while still hitting ridiculously hard is pretty great.

    qc approved 1/3
  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
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    LO is worthy of a slash on the SubRoost set, the QC team had discussed this a few months ago and came on an agreement. I already expressed my preference of Choice Specs over LO on the all out attacking set so...
  24. ginganinja

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    I am agreeing with BKC that LO is only AC material in the Sub Roost set, clearly the QC team wasn't entirely in agreement back then....

    In my experience, the extra HP per turn was always useful, since it added to the amount of subs you could use and thus stall for longer etc etc. Life Orb + Sub + SR just cripples your HP and sorta defeats the defensive purposes of the set. Like, if I wanted to run LO Kyurem, then I would simply run 3 Attacks + Roost, and ignore Substitute entirely...
  25. Halcyon.

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    Yeah I've never used Life Orb to any sort of success, so I'll happily remove it from the SubRoost set and put it in AC.
  26. Namso

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    From the quick IRC convo, on SubRoost, move Dragon Pulse and Focus Blast to AC (mention that Dragon Pulse hits opposing Kyurem, Kingdra, and Rotom-W (which you set up on regardless) and Focus Blast mainly for Tyranitar) and keep Ice Beam and Earth Power as main slashes. All things considered, that move combination is far, far superior than running Dragon Pulse and Focus Blast.

    QC 2/3

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