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Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Aerrow, Sep 18, 2010.

  1. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 24, 2009
    [SIZE=2]#646 Kyuremu 
      Typing: Dragon/ Ice
      Ability 01: Pressure
    [/SIZE][INDENT][SIZE=2]   When this Pokémon is hit by a move, the opponent’s PP lowers by 2 rather than 1.[/SIZE]
    [/INDENT][SIZE=2]   Ability 02 (Dream World): Unknown
      Base Stats:
      HP: 125
      Atk: 130
      Def: 90
      SpA: 130
      SpD: 90
      Spe: 95
      Level-Up Moves:
      Lv1: Icy Wind
      Lv1: Dragon Rage
      Lv8: Imprison
      Lv15: Ancient Power
      Lv18: Ice Beam
      Lv29: Dragon Breath
      Lv36: Slash
      Lv43: Scary Face
      Lv50: [/SIZE][M549]
    [SIZE=2]   Lv57: Dragon Rage
      Lv64: Imprison
      Lv71: Endeavor
      Lv78: Blizzard
      Lv85: Outrage
      Lv92: Hyper Voice
    [/SIZE][M549]: Ice Special Power: 65 / Accuracy: 95
    Sharply lowers target's Speed
      TM/ HM Moves:
      TM01 - Claw Sharpen, 
      TM02 - Dragon Claw, 
      TM06 - Toxic, 
      TM07 - Hail, 
      TM10 - Hidden Power, 
      TM11 - Sunny Day, 
      TM13 - Ice Beam, 
      TM14 - Blizzard, 
      TM15 - Hyper Beam, 
      TM16 - Light Screen, 
      TM17 - Protect, 
      TM18 - Rain Dance, 
      TM20 - Safeguard, 
      TM21 - Frustration, 
      TM27 - Return, 
      TM29 - Psychic, 
      TM30 - Shadow Ball, 
      TM32 - Double Team, 
      TM33 - Reflect, 
      TM39 - Rock Tomb, 
      TM42 - Facade, 
      TM44 - Rest, 
      TM48 - Troll, 
      TM49 - Echo Voice, 
      TM52 - Focus Blast, 
      TM56 - Fling, 
      TM65 - Shadow Claw, 
      TM66 - Payback, 
      TM68 - Giga Impact, 
      TM71 - Stone Edge, 
      TM80 - Rock Slide, 
      TM82 - Dragon Tail, 
      TM87 - Swagger, 
      TM90 - Substitute, 
      TM91 - Flash Cannon, 
      TM94 - Rock Smash, 
      HM01 - Cut, 
      HM02 - Fly, 
      HM04 – Strength[/SIZE]
    Say hello to what seems as the third part of Generation 5’s dragon trio, similarly to Dialga, Palkia, and Giratina in Generation 4. Unlike its counterparts, Reshiram and Zekrom, Kyuremu doesn’t own a base 150 offensive stat, but instead it boasts even base 130 offensive stats as well as 95 sped which is higher than the White Ying and Black Kang Pokemon’s, making Kyuremu a viable mixed attacker, or better known as, a wall Breaker. Also, as is obvious, Kyuremu also is the first of its typing; Ice/ Dragon was longed by many battlers since the first generation and Game Freak decided to give them that gift in this generation, although whether this typing is a gift or not is yet to be decided. With this typing, gains weaknesses to Fighting-, Rock-, and Steel-type attacks while still retaining its Dragon-Type weakness so there’s not much to be gained by this typing, though having an Ice Type STAB in Ubers can be very useful. Here’s a set(s) I though of; fell free to discuss it and also, please post new sets that may be viable!

    Kyuremu @ Life Orb
    200 SpA/ 252 Spe/ 52 Atk
    Pressure Ability/ Naïve Nature
    - Outrage/ Dragon Claw
    - Ice Beam/ Blizzard
    - Draco Meteor/ Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Focus Blast/ Claw Sharpen

    Kyuremu can effectively play the roles of a mixed attacker/ wall breaker due to several reasons; its massive base 130 offensive stats, decent bulk and its nice base 95 speed stat. Life orb is essential for maximum damage output, and a naïve nature is used to maximize speed while lowering Kyuremu’s less useful defenses (due to the reason being that all its weaknesses will most often be physical attacks). The Evs where selected to spread out its offenses while keeping it fast enough to take on opposing base 95’s and under (notably Reshiram and Zekrom). Outrage is essential; the first of Kyuremu’s two STABs (though Dragon Claw can be used if you don't like to be locked into Outrage) while Ice Beam or Blizzard gives it its second STAB attacks. Hidden power [Fire] gives great coverage with Outrage and Ice Beam/ Blizzard though Draco Meteor can be used if you want a strang special STAB attack; and since Heatran resists all of these attacks, Focus Blast can be used to deal with the lava Pokemon. Also, Claw Sharpen can be used if you want to power up Outrage and make Blizzard and Draco Meteor more accurate.
    ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■ ■
    So yeah, that was a small summary of Kyuremu and its extent in terms of viability in the competitive battling scene of Pokemon. Please post with your comments, suggestions or basically anything that will help recognize Kyuremu's usefulness in competitive play. But Note: do not make any assumptions about the tiers and what tier the Generation 5 Pokemon will be put into. Also, if you are also a Kyuremu fan, join Smogon's premier Kyuremu Fan Club (Group)! Thanks.
  2. IcyMan28


    Sep 18, 2008
    I don't think Kyuremu's niche is readily apparent, to be honest. Ice typing, while long sought after, is actually a curse when paired with Dragon, as it adds on defensive weaknesses while doing little in the way of offense.

    In this case, I guess the ice typing lets it deal with Lugia and Ray without resorting to dragon moves, but that's about it.

    And then there are the stats. Base 125 HP is good...but Stealth Rock and weaknesses abound. 130 offenses are actually rather soft relatively speaking...Rayquaza outclasses it here, and sports arguably better typing with the exact same defenses and speed.

    I'm of the opinion that it will either get alternate forms in the next game, and that those will define it, or that its Ice moves (140 power physical + paralysis, 140 power special + burn) will create its niche.
  3. NeoSeth


    Jun 21, 2010
    According to your list, it doesn't learn Fire Blast.
  4. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 24, 2009
    Oh; I was looking at Reshiram's Serebii Pokedex page when I was typing this and at that time, i was at the part where it listed it's level up moves, fire Blast being one of them; sorry, my bad. I'll replace it with Hidden Power [Fire].
  5. Lugztina


    Jun 9, 2007
    I don't think Kyurem even learns Fire Blast through any means based on its movepool, so that would mean that he is even weaker to Steels than ever.
  6. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 24, 2009
    Yeah it was my mistake; Kyuremu doesn't learn Fire Blast.
  7. sandman

    sandman Bum bum bum bum
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    May 11, 2007
    I think there should be some mention about pairing it with abomasnow since now with hails new effect, hail teams may become more viable and blizzard becomes more powerful than draco meteor. This thing sounds insane in in double and tripple battles now with Blizzards boost it will almost be as powerful as kyogres water spout. Glaceon just got major competition.
  8. chimpact

    chimpact fire nation
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Past SPL Champion

    Oct 22, 2006
    I'm not sure if Life orb is available in gen 5
  9. bojangles

    bojangles IF YOU TRULY BELIEVE,
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Battle Server Admin Alumnusis a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis an Administrator Alumnus

    May 23, 2008
    At level 50, Kyuremu learns [M549]

    [M549]: Ice Special Power: 65 / Accuracy: 95
    Sharply lowers target's Speed

    It's an Icy Wind on steroids. This could definitely have its uses.

    I actually have quite high hopes for Kyuremu. Ice and Dragon are two of the best offensive types, especially among legendaries. It's high Attack and Special Attack with its respectable Speed mean that it can fulfill a very good Mixed role.

    I like this moveset Jibaku mentioned on IRC:
    -Draco Meteor
    -Dragon Claw
    -Ice Beam
    -Focus Blast

    HP Fire is also a possibility, like in the OP.

    I would not count Kyuremu out that quickly, especially with improved Hail (in which case you could use Blizzard). Let me remind you how bad people thought Giratina-O was, and now it's considered a top threat. I'm also excited to see its Dream World ability.
  10. Spenstar


    May 6, 2010
    IDK about this guy... his stats seem pretty poorly distributed for an uber-legend. I could even see this guy being regulated to OU due to its typing, (redundant offensively,crappy defensively) and stats. But that's just theorymon
  11. latinoheat

    is a CAP Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 20, 2004
    I know Ice is a crappy defensive typing and SR isn't helping but the Hail Boost gives him 125hp with a boosted 90 defence, which surely will be able to take some physical hits. The dragon typing also gives him Electic/Grass/Water resistances add to that one of its signature moves has a decent chance of Burn, this might see some usage defensively on Hail teams.
  12. Arctic Eclipse

    Arctic Eclipse

    Oct 10, 2009
    In Ubers I think your set with a Scarf could cause havoc.
  13. kyu


    Sep 23, 2007
    Kyuremu might make a decent attacking lead... It could outspeed anything after a first turn hyper-Icy Wind, then Draco Meteor or something turn 2 to finish off their lead/put a dent in whatever they try to switch in. It's defensive typing isn't the best, but it should be able to take a few hits and cripple anything with its 130/130 offensive stats.
  14. giggity69


    Sep 15, 2009
    Defensively he may not be that sound, but then again, he is obviously not meant for a defensive role. With both STAB dragon and ice attacks, he can cause a fair amount of destruction in either tier (Not assuming ubers just yet). Also, when looking at the SR weakness, take a look at rayquaza and Ho-oh, both of whom are huge threats, even with the weakness.
  15. Miscellaneous


    Jun 21, 2009
    Zyuremu shouldn't be underestimated. His defenses are bulky to say the least, overall similar to Arceus' (maybe a bit less).

    130/130/95 is extraordinary. Seriously, this thing could be physical, special, mixed, specs, band, or scarfed. I think you've forgotten with stats like 150 base, that 130 base attack is going to hurt, a lot.

    Also, you really shouldn't take Dragon/ice on face value. It may seem like a curse, but honestly it is not. You should always be trying to beat the pokemon of the metagame, not the type chartings. Dragon can hit palkia harder, as well as Reshiram. Dragon is great for neutral coverage. Ice can hit flyers really hard, STAB ice is a thing long overdue in Ubers, it should shake it up a bit. Focus blast is nice for the steels, too.

    Ultimately, Kyumeru is an excellent addition. I think the new icy wind will be great for comming back at stat-uppers. I see it now as either a mixed attacker, or a counter utility.
  16. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Nov 24, 2009
    Thanks for the suggestions, comments and everything else, guys! I've updated the OP with a couple of changes as suggested by Bojangles and a couple of other users who posted their comments and/ or suggestions among other things.
  17. tehy

    tehy Banned deucer.

    Aug 16, 2010
    The reason dragon ice is redundant is very simple.

    Dragon hits all the things ice hits. Chomp, ray, and mence don't carry haban berries, and in fact chomp even carries a yache berry sometimes. Groudon is affected, but not that much more than by a draco meteor. What exactly is ice stab doing that dragon stab isn't? Not only that, but it's a terrible defensive type. Finally, the stats are unimpressive, rayquaza has more bulk and much more attack. The 5 speed is made up for by extremespeed, or you can just use mence, or chomp. What can this do that uber dragons can't do themselves?
  18. Farewell


    Jul 4, 2008
    Switch into Ice moves without fear, work with Hail, and avoid Draco Meteor/Outrage reliance when dealing with other Ubers due to STAB Ice.
  19. bubbly


    Dec 4, 2009
    Draco Meteor and Outrage aren't exactly the greatest STAB's to rely on in a metagame basically built around surviving and dishing out these, and a few other, moves.

    I'm really hopeful of a superior dreamworld ability for this beautiful pokemon (if it gets one - everything else has). Pressure is mostly redundant on an Ice Type, even with its great defensive stats. Its overpowered version of Icy Wind has some potential once its actually in play as well.

    This thing is as it currently stands just too powerful for OU, but not by much. I really hope it gets some kind of boost to make it a strong addition to an Uber team.
  20. Calm Pokemaster

    Calm Pokemaster
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnus

    Dec 18, 2009
    It would struggle in Ubers, and it would be too much for OU.

    I would say M549 might quite some usage, since it sharply cuts Speed.....

    A set with M549 would be like this:
    Naive Kyuremu @Life Orb
    252 Spd 126 Atk 126 Spl Atk 4 HP
    M549 solely for the speed drop.
    Claw Sharpen

    Looks more like a gimmick set, but can be quite useful in some conditions.
    You can even tweak the EV's to put a bit more in Spl Atk.
  21. Corrupted


    May 23, 2008
    This guy is going to be causing switches though so a dragon tail set could be cool. Ice Beam/Dragon Tail/Draco Meteor/Focus Blast with a slightly bulkier spread would be cool.
  22. bubbly


    Dec 4, 2009
    Yeah, possibly. Abusing its Icy Wind-esque move along with Dragon Tail would be fun.

    I actually believe Kyuremu will get a different form or some kind of upgrade in the third game (Pokemon Grey! lol) similar to Giratina or Shaymin.

    I don't believe even Gamefreak would make a pokemon like this which basically requires a whole new tier just for itself (the Disappointing Base Stat 680 tier). Despite a few hard counters it would basically mop the floor in OU with a simple mix set combined with its great defenses, but it doesn't have the speciality in one stat or enough speed to really cut it in Ubers.

    Here's to a buff for Kyuremu!
  23. bubbly


    Dec 4, 2009
    *Cough* I think the Draco Meteor/Outrage problems have been mentioned, along with Groudon and possibly Lugia. I'm not really sure how Rayquaza supposedly has "more bulk" when it quite simply doesn't. Its success or lack of might depend on whether its extra bulk is enough to survive an extra attack compared to Ray.

    One important niche I think people are missing is that this is an excellent counter to Kyogre (or at least if it gets Thunder or something). 4x resist Water with nice special defense+hp, resist Thunder as well.
  24. Lugztina


    Jun 9, 2007
    Giratina O had even weaker 120/120 Offenses and base 90 speed, but many people still got him to work including myself (not to mention he is the best spinblocker in the game still). I bet Kyurem might have a specific function, since he is probably now the best Hail abuser in the game and can be used in hail teams with Abamosnow. He is definitely not outclassed by Rayquaza due to his higher HP and neutrality to ice moves. I could even see a bulky spread for this, since 125/90/90 is kind of above average, and is very similar to Giratina O. I can see this becoming like Giratina O, basically an underrated pokemon that became a top threat with people investigating it more. Despite his limited movepool, Kyurem does have Ice and Dragon stab, which is very effective in ubers. Yes, he has many flaws, but some of the benefits outweigh the negatives.
  25. Thorhammer


    Jun 18, 2008
    It's built around it because there isn't much you can do about it. Dragon is still by far the best attacking type.

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