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Lamppost's List

Discussion in 'Archives' started by Lamppost, Jul 9, 2012.

  1. Lamppost

    Lamppost I put the milk in first
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

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    Accelgor:

    -Didn't get anything from BW2 so it hasn't changed much.
    -Make mention of it outspeeding Tornadus-t.
    -If it's in the rain it doesn't need to worry about Thunder waves slowing it down thanks to hydration.
    -make hydration the main slash

    OU worthy: Yes
    Revamp: No

    Breloom:

    -A SD technician set needs to be added.
    -Add a Choice Band technician set.
    -Poison Heal > technician on all sets but SD and Choice
    -Jolly should be the main nature on the SD set because if you hit tornadus-t on the switch with Low Sweep you outspeed it and 2hko it with the speed drop.
    -Mention that Bullet Seed is stronger than Seed Bomb with technician.
    -Remove the Sub Seed set.
    -Add a spore + 3 attack set
    -List the sets in this order:
    Spore + 3 Attack / Choice Band / SD LO / Sub Punch / Bulk Up

    OU worthy: Yes
    Revamp: Yes

    Conkeldurr:

    -The only notable thing he got was Ice Punch.
    -Ice Punch should be slashed first on the Bulk Up, payback second. Stone Edge slash should be removed.
    -Ice Punch should be slashed with Payback and Facade on the status orb set.
    -Ice Punch > Stone Edge on the Choice Band set.
    -Ice Punch should be slashed with Payback on the Substitute+Focus Punch set. Stone Edhe slash should be removed.
    -Fire Punch should be mentioned in Other Option since it hits KOs Scizor and hits Ferrothorn harder than Drain Punch.
    -Mention Stone edge in AC.
    -Mention what you are walled by if you choose payback or if you choose Ice Punch

    OU worthy: Yes
    Revamp: Yes

    Dugtrio:

    -Didn't gain anything from BW2
    -Still does the same thing it did in BW1 (trap Ttar / Ninetales for weather control)
    -Mention Thundurus-t setting up on it if it's lacking Stone Edge

    OU worthy: Yes
    Revamp: No

    Ferrothorn:

    -Gained Stealth rock + Spikes + Leech Seed
    -Mention SD breloom setting up on it if you're lacking Gyro Ball
    -Mention that Haxorus gets superpower, so this isn't a reliable counter to DD Haxorus anymore.
    -Mention Bulldoze in Other Options for the standard set to beat Magnezone(mostly in the rain).
    -Retest the CB set, it sucks imo

    OU worthy: Yes
    Revamp: No

    Gyarados:

    -Slash Double Edge (return on Sub DD) and Ice Fang on every Dragon Dance set besides the Bulky DDance set.
    -Slash Moxie with Intimidate on the Sub DDance set.
    -Bounce should be slashed before Earthquake on the Offensive DDance set, and Double edge or Earthquake should be used > Stone edge.
    -Move 8 more speed evs to the first and second sets to outspeed tornadus-t at +1.

    OU worthy: Yes
    Revamp: No

    (GS EDIT: Do note that Double-Edge, a 3rd gen tutor move, is illegal with Moxie.)

    Jolteon:

    -Mention that it's the only OU Pokemon that can outspeed Tornadus-t.
    -Remove the boosting sweeper set and add it in Other Options, they aren't viable.

    OU worthy: Yes
    Revamp: No

    Ludicolo:

    -Scrap this analysis, it's not good in OU.

    OU worthy: No
    Revamp: No

    Milotic:

    -Didn't get anything from BW2.
    -The rest talk set might be usable in OU with dragon tail.

    OU worthy: No
    Revamp: No

    Reuniclus:

    -Gained nothing significant from BW2
    -The trick set should be removed and put in Other Options, it's not good in practice.
    -Mention that as a last resort the trick room set can take a LO hurricane / thunder from Tornadus-t / Thundurus-t then set up a TR and OHKO them in return with SR support.

    OU worthy: Yes
    Revamp: No

    Scolipede:

    -A fast spiker (tspikes AND spikes)
    -Remove the Swords Dance set, the only decent set is the spiker set.
    -Slash Focus Sash with Life Orb on the Support set.

    OU worthy: Yes
    Revamp: No

    Spiritomb:

    -Everything it does is outclasses by something else.

    OU worthy: No
    Revamp: Delete it

    Tornadus-I:

    -Losing a lot of usage because of Tornadus-t, but still a strong mon.
    -Mention some things in the analysis that it has over Tornadus-t such as being able to set up Tailwind, rain dance and Taunt.
    -Mention that it's stronger than Tornadus-t, but slightly less bulky.
    -Make acrobatics the first set since the hurricane version is pretty much outclassed by tornadus-t.
    -Mention that it's a decent Breloom check.

    OU worthy: Yes
    Revamp: No

    Volcarona:

    -Gained Roost from BW2 which is awesome.
    -Also got giga drain but that's much less awesome and only deserves AC mentions.
    -Slash Roost in front of morning sun on the bulky quiver dance set and slash it with Substitute on the drizzle set.
    -List the Offensive Quiver Dance set first and the Drizzle set second.
    -Mention that roost is a more reliable recovery than morning sun.
    -Slash HP Ground before HP Rock and Fire Blast before Fiery Dance on the Offensive Quiver Dance set.
    -Mention that HP Ground OHKOs terrakion at +1 with LO, and that Fire blast ohkos Dnite with LO at +1 in the sun.
    -change the bulky quiver dance evs to 60 Speed so you can outspeed tornadus-t at +1.

    OU worthy: Yes
    Revamp: No
  2. JellyOs

    JellyOs

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    That's a lot to mention on Volcarona, don't you think? I think it needs a revamp; it just got tons of new counters but a good deal of new viable options. Also the fact that it can function on either the new-and-even-more-powerful Rain teams as well as on the still-good Sun teams makes me think that it could use an update. I mean, that's a lot of slashes and new mentions...
  3. Doughboy

    Doughboy house of champions
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    Breloom

    SubSeed is still a very powerful set and a more defensive Breloom is useful in checking Landorus-T. I would keep it despite its rare us in OU.

    Ludicolo

    SubSeed is a great way to counter rain teams, that 4x resist to water is really good. TBH I think Swift Swim Ludicolo has seem some usage now in order to counter-team offensive rain teams. Ludicolo is good to use in OU but his role is really really limited.

    Dugtrio

    I would also mention that now it is outsped by Tornadus-T.

    Conkeldurr

    Slash Ice Punch first? No way! Ice Punch really only hits Gliscor and means you will be walled hard by Jellicent, Tentacruel, and Slowbro. Conkeldurr was such a great fighting-type because it could beat Jellicent 1 vs 1 by absorbing the burns it always throws out. Same for putting Tentacruel in a tough spot, since if it wants to kill, it has to risk the Scald burn while getting smashed by Payback. Payback should be the first slash. TBH I think Payback is staple on BU sets. In a sense Payback is more useful now since more teams incorporate Jellicent to check Keldeo.

    IMO using Ice Punch really only finds a home on the CB and Orb sets. It should be Facade vs Ice Punch on the Status Orb set, since that comes down to hitting Reuniclus or Gliscor harder. Definitely Ice Punch>Stone Edge on CB. Lastly, using Fire Punch to kill Ferrothorn is kinda stupid since you hurt yourself with Iron Barbs rather than using it to heal massive amounts of health with Drain Punch. Scizor is in a similar boat. IMHO Thunder Punch deserves a much stronger OO mention than Fire Punch since it is Conkeldurr's strongest move against Slowbro.

    Reuniclus

    Yes! please remove that Flame Orb set it is garbage

    Everything else I pretty much agree with.
  4. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    If I'm not mistaken, the original Tornadus also got heatwave, superpower, and sleep talk. Superpower might be notable because it competes with focus blast. I don't know if that warrants a rewrite though.
  5. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    A few things:

    Accelgor:
    ...and do what? I guess you could Final Gambit it if you're at full health or something, but otherwise Accelgor really can't do much to Tornadus-T as well.
    - I'd also suggest scrapping the offensive set, but I'll want other input into that. It just seems very underwhelming.

    Breloom:
    - Mention a bulky spread and Leftovers for SD Breloom - I'd say for SD, just make it a general SD set with Spore / SD / Mach Punch / Bullet Seed, you pick which spread you want for the standard, and have a significant mention in AC about the other. The bulky spread I've been thinking of is 232 HP / 252 Atk / 24 Spe Adamant. It makes switching into rain attacks a hell of a lot easier. I've even taken attacks like +0 Outrage from Haxorus (I think it was Haxorus) with this spread and put it to sleep in a clutch.

    Jolteon:
    - I agree with the boosting set being scrapped, but not SubPass. I have been using Substitute + Baton Pass ever since this new metagame started and it is brilliant. There are so many things you can force out with Jolteon so setting up a Sub is easy. You can either just sweep crappily made rain teams with Thunderbolt and HP Ice alone, or if you meet a hurdle like Gastrodon, just Baton Pass the Sub to another sweeper, like your Dragonite or something. SubPass is definitely worth keeping.

    Volcarona:
    - Fire Blast > Fiery Dance on the Offensive set. Yes, I know the arguments for Fiery Dance > Fire Blast, and I'm going to dispell them:

    1) Fiery Dance is more accurate and reliable. Yes it's more accurate. It however, is not more reliable. Case in point: In the sun, with LO and a Modest nature, you OHKO Dragonite after SR. Now, what do you think is better here? An 85% chance to beat said "counter", or a 0% one? On an offensive set, you are aiming to be as powerful as possible as quickly as possible, and Fiery Dance is just too weak on such a set. That Dragonite is just one example, but you get the picture - You need Fire Blast to get certain OHKOs that Fiery Dance will never get, and on an offensive set, this is ideal.

    2) Fiery Dance is as powerful as Fire Blast at +2 - Actually, it isn't. If you go do some calcs, you'll realise that +2 Fiery Dance is still not as powerful as +1 Fire Blast (even though the difference is tiny). So that means after 2 turns, you won't have done as much damage as you would have if you just use Fire Blast twice. On an offensive set, who is going to give you the luxury of 2 turns? Also, this is assuming that you get the +1 SpA from Fiery Dance, which is 50% of the time. Someone want to call Fire Blast out on being unreliable now?
  6. Lamppost

    Lamppost I put the milk in first
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    @jelly0s, it's just putting roost > morning sun on most sets and a few changes in movesets.

    @Doughboy, Ice Punch hits gliscor, dragons, Landorus, thundurus and tornadus. Payback hits psychic and ghost types who can be trapped and killed anyway. Ice Punch also hits way more common pokes in the current metagame.

    Either way, they're both effective and it really comes down to preference / what your team is weak to.

    If a Landorus-t is running full offense, you shouldn't be using Breloom to counter it anyway. It's not bulky enough.

    The general consensus that i've gotten when asking around with Ludicolo is that it's bad (i agree).

    @shrang, I put the sub pass set back on and I said Fire blast > fiery dance in my post. I think a bulky SD loom deserves an AC or OO mention at best.
  7. Pocket

    Pocket Apo, the astronaut's best friend >:3
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    Breloom

    imo all Breloom sets with Poison Heal should be relegated to OO mentions, since there's really no reason to use Breloom without Technician.

    I don't even see Bulk Up being all that useful for countering Volt-Turn teams anymore, with Tornadus-T added to the mix.

    ========================

    Tornadus-I needs a re-vamp imo, simply because Tornadus-T exists and the analysis should do a thorough job in differentiating the two.
  8. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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    Really? Do you not remember how annoying Breloom was before Technician was released? If your team is not in need so much of a priority abuser, but perhaps instead a more durable status absorber, then poison heal breloom is still a decent choice. It's almost like a different pokemon, and I think it was decided that outclassed pokemon could still get an analysis provided that they are viable. Poison Heal Breloom is not even outclassed.
  9. Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Cipher Admin Lovrina

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    Having written it in the beginning of BW, I'd be willing to revamp the Milotic analysis! I think Recover + Dragon Tail is better than Sleep Talk! I'd very much recommend a Calm nature over a bold nature as well. Either 252 HP/252 Special Defense or 252 HP/240 Defense/16 Special Defense work better.
  10. SlimMan

    SlimMan

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    Basically what jc said. I'm surprised Pocket. Breloom is still a little fucker with Spore on Poison Heal sets. And still, very few things wanna switch into its Focus Punch. Breloom got a great upgrade, but I don't see how Poison Heal Breloom is even vaguely unworthy.
  11. Husky

    Husky

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    Poison Heal sets are still worth being played. I noticed that the presence of Technician Mach Punch scares a lot of people and they try to avoid the potential revenge kill by switching to a possible 'counter'. Poison Heal Breloom can effectively abuse this fact and setup on its own quite easily with Substitute and Spore. I tested so many variations and two came up out of all:
    1. Technician with Mach Punch
    2. Poison Heal with Spore and Substitute

    One can run very different sets and EVs on these sets but these two are the main cores of each possible Breloom set. Seriously, the Bulk Up set can't hold its own anymore..
  12. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Minor note on Gyarados - first and second set should sacrifice 8 Atk EVs to Spe. This will allow Gyarados to outspeed Tornadus-T in the rain after a Dragon Dance. I personally found this pretty useful when tackling Rain Dance teams.
  13. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
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    Double post but I'm Colonel M.

    Gyarados's sets should probably be re-ordered, and I've been thinking about testing out some different things with the other sets (for example, I think Lum Berry could be used in Taunt Gyarados to deter the Scalds, but I think this one is a lot more doomed versus bulky Water-types in general).

    The set order IMO should be:

    SubDD > Offensive DD > Bulky DD > Bulky Support > Choice Scarf > Choice Band > RestTalk

    Bulky Support could possibly be argued over Bulky DD (IMO Taunt with Dragon Dance is good, but SubDD does better against bulky Water-types not named Protect Politoed / Vaporeon), but I think RestTalk is OO material in this generation with sleep's awkward mechanics.

    It's up to QC really.

    Also Lum really needs to go on Offensive Gyarados and Jolly should be the nature of choice. Nothing is more annoying than being slower than Jolteon this generation, who is quite common enough in OU to wreck your sweep.

    Also will agree with the ginganinja post that's coming up.
  14. ginganinja

    ginganinja Dating Haunter
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    Righto

    I agree with the set order that Colonial M posted so fully support that

    Also want to recommend Outrage at least getting a mention on CB Gyarados. I gave it a test in BW 1, and while I got teased a lot, it was nice for a solid 60% chance of a OHKO on Scarf Rotom W after SR, as well as 2KOing Jellicent (CB EQ maxs out at 47%). It had nice neutral coverage, and was nice to hit Dragonite / Latias / Haxorus etc all on the switch which was useful on occasion.

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