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Landorus-I Discussion: Evaluating a Potential Suspect

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by kd24, Mar 18, 2013.

?

Should Landorus-I get a suspect test?

  1. Yes

    158 vote(s)
    49.5%
  2. No

    161 vote(s)
    50.5%
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  1. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I'm pretty sure what he meant was that once your TTar Pursuited my Latios, now he can bring in any kind of sweeper to get free setup on the Pursuit locked TTar. Something like SubSalac or SubLiechi Terrakion can set up easily and proceed to sweep. I'm not saying this by pure theorymoning, but I've played a whole lot of these Lando + Ttar cores while I was testing the SubLiechi set with Rock Polish. If my Latios was ever revenged, I just brought in Terrakion and pproceeded to set up. However, I must be frank: the pressure and threat of CB Ttar was hugely influential in my decisions, and a few times I assumed a Ttar switch in and double switched my Latios, but they didn't bring out Ttar. Thus I conclude that though the core is threatening, it isn't unshakeable, and lots of sweepers can setup. Therefore I must ask that it should not be used as a counterargument against certain counters and checks. Personally I think Landorus should be suspected, but for now I don't think out I'd vote for its banning.
  2. HackerKing

    HackerKing

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    But how can one not bring team support into the equation. Pokemon is and will always be a game about team support. Latios and Latias, along with Virizon can outspeed and OHKO with a countering move (Surf / Hidden Power Ice / Draco Meteor). This means to beat them, assuming they have 100% HP, Landorus must out speed them and boost its special attack. Therein (puns :P) lies the problem. Even the Rock Polish set leaves them with enough HP to KO.

    So, now let's assume then you pack Tyranitar to deal with the Lati-Twins. Most Lati-Twins will have a team mate like Conkeldurr who wreaks Tyranitar. Landorus still takes a ridiculous amount of damage from Guts Conkeldurr or Bulk-Up Conkeldurr (especially if it boasts Ice Punch). Machamp is also a good example of this, who can Dynamic Punch Landorus on the switch-in for confusion shenanigans as it tries to set-up.
  3. Agent Gibbs

    Agent Gibbs

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    I don't know if this was directed specifically at me or not, but nowhere did I say that Landorus is home free once Latios is down. Sometimes that might be the only thing standing in Landorus's way, sometimes it won't be. That wasn't my point.

    Ah, but now we're not just talking about checks and support, now we're bringing in opposing sweepers. I could extend this same argument as well. For example, you bring in your bulky Water to check Landorus and I bring in my SubCM Keldeo to set up and rip you a new one etc. However, in the respective cases of Tyranitar vs Latios and bulky check vs Landorus, there is a major difference in that Latios isn't coming back from that one. That is what I was responding to.

    I think you're misinterpreting the argument here (or at least the one I was trying to make). ihatesmogan claimed that he had a great list of checks, provided you were willing to sack something every time you wanted to bring one in. ginganinja responded to that, and you in turn compared his argument about sacking something in order to Pursuit trap Latios with sacking something to safely bring in a bulky check to Landorus, which are very different cases for the aforementioned reasons. Yes, there is a smart way to sack something in order to gain the advantage, as ginganinja's Latios example would be, but that smart approach was not what ihatesmogan was describing.
  4. Ojama

    Ojama May your scattered remains entertain me
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    Do you want me to link your post in which you're saying that SDef Skarmory, Royom-W, Latios etc counter Landorus? Who are you for asking this lol? I find this really funny to see you ask that, but whatever.

    How isn't Latios a Pursuit bait knowing it's OHKO'd by it? Tyranitar is one of its best counters and it has Pursuit but Latios isn't a Pursuit bait, sure You're assuming that Latios kills something before getting trapped, did you think about ScarfTyranitar or Support Tyranitar? I don't think so.

    This part is true, the rest is wrong. Who cares about 1v1 when it almost never happens during the battle? Mamoswine beats Landorus 1v1, is it a counter? Not at all. Latios is absolutely not a counter but a check, it is 2HKO'd whether by HP Ice or by U-Turn how can we call it a counter? Landorus-I has the right to switch hasn't it? You will obviously answer "HEY OJAMA LATIAS CAN USE RECOVER". Firstly, HP Ice does 61-72% which means it does 73-84% with Stealth Rock support. Recover only restaures 50% of Latios' health which means it loses like 20% of its health after HP Ice. Let's say it has 80% after using Recover. Next time it will come in against Landorus-I, HP Ice will kill it and Landorus-I will have only lost 20% due to LO recoil. This is not a great counter isn't it. In addition, I can send my Tyranitar when you're using Recover which means you're trapped, cya Latios. I hope I've finally convinced you that Latios isn't a counter but a check to Landorus-I. But since Landorus-I is extremely hard to counter, maybe you guys are thinking that checks are counters =p

    Ah because losing Heatran is absolutely not a problem? So since Landorus-I isn't able to decimate your whole Team without switching out, it's not an issue? Hey come on, you only have 6 Pokémons, are you going to sac 1 Pokémon each time Landorus-I will come in before sending in your fantastic counter known as Vaporeon? For your information, Offensive Politoed is OHKO'd after Stealth Rock by Earth Power AND, only ScarfPolitoed outruns it and forces it to switch out. Rotom-W is either 2HKO'd or OHKO'd by Focus Blast and as I said it before, Celebi is wrecked by U-Turn and 3HKO'd by HP Ice. As I said it for Latios, when you're using Recover, I can send in Tyranitar and trap you. And you're always forced to use Recover with Celebi after getting hit by HP Ice because if you use U-Turn then you will be 2HKO'd by HP Ice (especially if Stealth Rock is up). Won't even comment the "49% chance of hitting Focus Blast" because it's a bit ridiculous to rely on luck to beat Landorus-I.

    Well while it's true that after Pursuiting Latios you can set up for example a SubSDTerrakion, I think we're theorymoning way too much. I can easily answer "but I have a Scizor!" or another check/counter to Terrakion. Let's stay focused on Landorus-I. As HackerKing said it, Pokemon is and will always be a game about Team support. This is probably why we create cores? Landorus-I is broken itself but it's even better when paired with Tyranitar or EBelt Keldeo for example. We can't ignore the fact that Tyranitar traps most of Landorus-I checks/counters which means they can't switch and get killed, letting Landorus-I a free sweep. We aren't relying on lures or teammates that weaken counters but on something that prevent them from switching and kill them.
  5. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    You're getting this mixed up. Mamoswine is not a counter because it can't switch into Landorus without getting killed. On the other hand, Latios CAN switch into anything Landorus uses and defeat it. If Mamoswine can also switch into every one of Landorus's attacks, then it is a counter. Yes, Latios is 2HKOed by HP Ice, but you're not going to pull off that HP Ice because you're outsped and OHKOed that exact same turn, unless you switch. In that bout, Latios is the victor. Landorus cannot win, he can only retreat. Latios is a counter. I never said Latios was the best counter or a hard counter, but it is a counter nonetheless, because it can switch into Landorus and defeat it without any chance that it dies in the process (apart from a crit), assuming both are at full health and common battle condition ensue.

    You can argue that you have Scizor, so you've already allowed yourself about 3 or 4 different Pokemon that supports Landorus. How much more team support does that thing need? You only need like 1 or 2 more Pokemon to make Charizard an overpowering Pokemon. /sarcasm

    Whoa whoa whoa, hold on, what proof do you have that Landorus is broken by itself? All I've been seeing is that people are arguing how broken Landorus is when used with Tyranitar. Yes, I know Tyranitar can trap Landorus's counters easily. What I'm arguing against is that this argument cannot be used to prove that Landorus is broken, on its own. Like I said, if you put Tyranitar + Keldeo + Landorus together, what is the integral Pokemon of that trio? It's obviously Tyranitar. If you base it on your argument (which is flawed), then you should come to a conclusion that Tyranitar is the broken one because without it, that "broken core" sucks. I'm not disagreeing that Landorus's counters can be unreliable because Tyranitar traps them, but to use this argument alone is not enough. You need to show that Landorus's counters are unreliable because Landorus himself can defeat them. It's basically the same as saying "Suspect X's DNA is at the crime scene, therefore he must be the murderer". You need additional sets of evidence to be able to prove without reasonable doubt that suspect X is the murderer. Same sort of thing with Landorus. You need more than just "Tyranitar traps Landorus's counters". If something is broken, in my opinion, is if your "counters" are unreliable because Landorus itself defeats them (using their broken set). However, Landorus can't defeat Latios by itself without having to retreat. It can't defeat Gyarados by itself. On the other hand, shit like Garchomp, when we banned it, could. Trying to revenge kill it with Starmie? It made you miss 20% of the time. There's a big difference. So yeah, I'm not saying that team support is not important, but for a Pokemon to be broken, in my eyes, they need to be a lot more independent.
  6. ganj4lF

    ganj4lF Nobody is safe from the power of science!
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    I'm trying to elaborate my thoughts on the matter in an intelligible way for them to be posted, but it's kinda hard seeing the huge amount of subjectivity these kinds of discussions imply. Without a definition of "broken", or something similar, the whole things is close to pointless in my opinion, since we could very well be discussing different things called with the same name. The closest thing to a definition is this thread, however even using that to evaluate Lando-I (and the last two or three suspects) does not lead to a clear answer, at least to me. I never had huge issues with Lando (and not even with Deo-D, to be honest, but that's not the point I guess), so I guess their "unbalancedness" (or wth is called) is questionable (yeah, this is probably a bad argument, however shrang brings out many better points that I 100% support). It is not questionable the fact that we are introducing stability, adherence, and (maybe) variety issues. I'm particularly concerned with stability, to be honest; I don't think it's worthwhile to continue suspecting things when the metagame has always assested itself to deal with them, especially when they're not monsters like Excadrill or Darkrai, which were much more obviously threatening for the health of the metagame. Interestingly enough, even Genesect, while much more threatening for the balance of the metagame, could be played around in a number of ways, and it even gave things like Rotom-H a chance to "shine" in that environment. So, to sum up, I don't really see the necessity of this suspect test (that's why I voted no) when our only definition of suspect seems to support the non-suspect option, and when the balance issue is not really clear, at least for 50% of the community or something like that, while the other issues are quite evident to everyone.

    Sorry if this is too much theorymonning or whatever, I realize these considerations have little to do with effectively "played pokemon", but I guess that's the only reasonable (to me) way to approach this subject.
  7. Ojama

    Ojama May your scattered remains entertain me
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    So to you, anything that is 2HKO'd by Landorus-I but can kill it in return and so is faster is a counter? Ah so, ScarfPolitoed is a counter? ScarfJellicent??? SashAlakazam??? I don't want to be mean, but you clearly don't know what a counter is if you call Latios a Landorus-I counter, sorry. You force it to switch out and that's all, you can't switch on it 3-4 times, not even twice but only ONCE, do you really think that it's a counter? Something that can switch on it only once? Seriously...

    What are you talking about lol? Having a counter to Terrakion means that Landorus-I needs a lot of Team support? No that means having good Team, sorry. If you don't use Landorus-I you don't need to bring a Terrakion counter? This is exactly what you're saying there. You said that you can set up with Terrakion against Tyranitar locked on Pursuit and I just answered that I can have a Terrakion counter such as Scizor. Is Scizor a Landorus-I teammate there? Wake up shrang, please.

    Proof that Landorus-I is broken by itself? The fact that it OHKOs/2HKOs 98% of the Metagame? It is the reason why Stall is clearly unviable in the current Metagame, and we're just talking about suspecting it. The RPolish Set is probably the most threatening Sets of the Metagame but it's obviously not broken. Tyranitar helps Landorus-I, we've never said that Landorus-I cannot sweep without Tyranitar. Latios takes like 75% after Stealth Rock, you just need a few LO damage and it's over. Landorus-I is independent but whatever. It is able to destroy a whole Team after a Rock Polish and it's extremely powerful, meaning that you can kill a Pokemon each time it attacks, especially against an Offensive Team. It doesn't even need Calm Mind or Choice Specs to OHKO/2HKO 98% of the Metagame, what else do you want? You also don't even realize that Landorus-I is also an amazing MidGame Sweeper, especially with U-Turn. It can make big holes in the opponent Team, letting its Teammates a free sweep. I really don't understand you, shrang. You can be against its ban or its suspect test, but don't say it's not broken please.
  8. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    Actually, that is exactly what a counter is. There are varying degrees of how many times a counter can switch-in. If Scarf Politoed can take an attack from Landorus and avoid getting OHKOed and KO back in return, it by definition is counter. I know this isn't an official article on site (there isn't one), but our unofficial glossary in this forums says:

    It does not specify how many times you need to be able to switch in. By definition, if Scarf Politoed can switch in without dying and OHKO in return, it is a counter.


    First thing (last two bolded parts):
    You just contradicted yourself. Presuming that the Rock Polish set is the culprit set, you just said it wasn't broken, then you say it is. Secondly, your last line doesn't make sense whatsoever. If I'm truly convinced that Landorus is broken, why the fuck should I be against its ban? Maybe you don't understand me because you're not arguing coherently yourself.

    First bolded part:
    Obviously you missed the sarcasm and thus the entire point. I was pointing out that you already have Tyranitar / Keldeo / Landorus already, now you want additional team support for it? Like I was saying to ginga before, your arguments seem to stem from how much team support that Landorus seems to be getting, yet the counter seems to be operating on its own. The game is not Landorus + 5 Pokemons vs Latios. Stop trying to compare apples to oranges and maybe we can have a proper discussion.

    Other bolded part:
    Do you know what else can OHKO/2HKO the entire metagame all by itself? Dragonite. Salamence. Haxorus. Kyurem-B. Terrakion. Keldeo. Hell Infernape could OHKO/2HKO as many things as Landorus can, and I'm not joking. It's not a measure of how broken a Pokemon. That argument was discontinued back in 2007 when D/P came out. Get with the times. I also fail to see how stall can't deal with Landorus. Special sets are completely walled by Blissey (and Latias, and Celebi, and on and on and on), while physical sets are just complete Spike fodder for Skarmory. Please don't bring in Tyranitar and Pursuit because like I said, Tyranitar being able to trap all these says nothing about how broken Landorus is more than it does Tyranitar. I've said this about 10x already and I'm not going to repeat it again.
  9. peng

    peng

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    I don't think the definition of a counter is even important here. Technically Latias is a counter, yes, but you are incredibly naive if you believe its actually a good answer to Landorus in practice. We had exactly the same situation with Genesect - SDef Heatran was almost a flawless counter on paper to any common set (i.e. no HP Ground), but given how popular Genesect + Dugtrio was (on both sun and rain), it became widely acknowledged that Heatran was a pretty terrible answer to Genesect in practice.

    Whether Landorus-I is suspect or not should not have anything do with definitions of "broken" and "counter" - there is no set of characteristics that make a Pokemon definitively "Uber" or "OU".

    Pokemon is a video game. Instead of theorymonning whether or not Latias and Celebi beat Landorus-I in a vacuum, go and actually play some Pokemon with a Latias team and tell me its still effective at beating Landorus-I when you get rocked by a Pursuit user or a U-Turn set.

    EDIT:
    The difference is all these Pokemon have major drawbacks - they are Stealth Rock weak, they are spike susceptible, they have to rely on Choice Items, they don't get +2 speed set-up moves, they take Life Orb (and Sandstorm) recoil or a combination of these. Landorus-I hits harder than pretty much anything on that list whilst not being locked into an attack or taking Life Orb recoil, it is Stealth Rock neutral, it is Spikes immune, it gets access to Rock Polish to make your Choice Scarfer useless. It also requires very little team support to overcome its counters (i.e. CBTar), and even if you don't have Ttar, Celebi and Latias are among the easiest Pokemon to lure or overload anyway, by sheer virtue of how much they are commonly used to cover. So it has very few counters which are incredibly easily removed/weakened, either by a U-turn set or by Pursuit. There are a bunch of Pokemon in the tier that can take one hit from Landorus and deal decent damage back, but Landorus doesn't get worn down quickly like Infernape and Salamence do. Landorus can switch-in, throw off an absurdly powerful Earth Power as you sacrifice something, you go out to your check and its at most it has taken Stealth Rock damage only.

    Landorus-I doesn't get worn down, so it can repeatedly switch out of your checks and keep coming back in again to throw around more powerful attacks. Eventually you'll run out of things that can take that one hit, and by then its natural bulk means it sets up relatively easily and can sweep despite being left at <10% HP. This is an incredibly common scenario even for teams that load up on Landorus checks. I have played multiple games with just a basic Tyranitar / RP Landorus-I / fillers team where my opponent is helpless against the combination of Pursuit trapping and simply outlasting their priority user.

    Landorus with a Pursuit Pokemon is almost exactly the same principle as Venusaur with Ninetales support, or (in early BW) Kingdra with Politoed support. Were Kingdra and the other Swift Swim Pokemon not broken in early BW because they need Politoed support? I guess we should go back through the Venusaur analysis and change its checks and counters section a bunch, because we can't assume Venusaur is being used with Ninetales when considering what beats it!
  10. Ojama

    Ojama May your scattered remains entertain me
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    Then we're having a big problem because it's absolutely not what a counter is. You're describing what a check is, not what a counter is. According to your own definition of a counter, Jolteon@Air Balloon with Hidden Power Ice is a Landorus-I counter? Fantastic.

    I was being ironic there by saying "but it's obviously not broken". I maybe missed the sarcasm but you also missed the irony. Why would I contradict myself? The RPolish Set is obviously broken, I was just being ironic. You asked for a proof that Landorus-I is broken, I just gave you one: the RPolish set is the most threatening Sets of the Metagame, it's obviously broken.

    Those Pokemons you listed (Keldeo, Dragonite, Terrakion, Kyurem-B, etc) are all broken since they're able to 2HKO/OHKO the entire Metagame by themselves, but they probably don't deserve to be banned such as Landorus-I. There is also a major difference with Landorus-I and these Pokemons: it doesn't need Choice Specs or CM to 2HKO/OHKO the entire Metagame, but these Pokemons do. Only Kyurem-B doesn't need one, that's why it's broken and it's OU though.

    Why didn't you quote the part in which I'm saying that Landorus-I doesn't need Team support to decimate an entire Team? Landorus-I is able to beat its counters by its own as I said it in my previous post. Landorus-I can beat Chansey with Calm Mind for example, is it a Team support? No it's not. Landorus-I 2HKO's Latios and Latias, it just needs to switch out after hitting them once, and the next time they won't be able to handle it. Where's the Team support here? Celebi can be beaten if Landorus-I does carry U-Turn, is it a Team support? "The game is not Landorus + 5 Pokemons vs Latios". No, it's Landorus-I vs Latios or Tyranitar + Landorus vs Latios. Only 2 Pokemons, why 6 in your sentence? Stop trying to compare theorymon and real game and maybe we can have a proper discussion.
  11. Ricky Horror

    Ricky Horror

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    There is no one "counter" to Landorus+Tyranitar. Everyone knows Landorus itself is not what in Smogon terms refer to as broken. It's a simple strategy, and you don't fend off against a strategy with one pokemon. So a counter to this combo would be Pokemon+Pokemon. Now whether you decide to use Latios as bait for Tyranitar to come in and double switch to Duggy is up to your creativity and battlingskills.
  12. shrang

    shrang Defend the Headquarters of Revolution
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    We have a definition right here. Please go and read it and understand what it means at its simplest, most fundamental level:


    Okay, what? Not only do you not know what the difference between a check and a counter is, but you can't use the word "broken" properly. The purpose for banning a Pokemon is because they are broken. Let me get that into your head right now. If a Pokemon is not broken, we do not ban it. If it is broken, we do. It's as simple as that.


    You had Tyranitar + Keldeo + Scizor + Landorus. That is 2/3 of a damn team. Even if you just narrow it down to TTar + Lando, that's still 2v1. You're still implying that Landorus has team support and Latios doesn't. That is an invalid comparison. Calm Mind Landorus has just as much a chance to Blissey as Calm Mind Virizion, I'm afraid. Blissey can Toxic you and then start spamming Wish and Protect or spam Softboiled. Even if you roll max damage (+1 Focus Blast does 70% max), you need to hit 4 times in a row, presuming Leftovers. It'll be three times in a row if you count sand. I'll give it to you that Blissey is not a complete counter to Landorus this way, but since you like to talk about "reliability" of these counters, I would think Blissey is pretty damn reliable in this case. You cannot defeat Latias one on one with Calm Mind either. Also, please don't imply that I don't play and just sit there and theorymon all the time. All I am doing is putting my play experience into arguments to support my case, while you are failing to do so.

    @PenguinX: I was clearing up Ojama's misconception of what a counter is. I was not specifying Latios' reliability as a Landorus counter due to the presence of Tyranitar, all I was pointing out was that Latios is a counter. That's it.

    Okay, now we're getting somewhere. At least you have the sense to not just tell me "BUT IT 2HKOS THE METAGAME". However, my problem is still this. You are still implying that either 1) Landorus counters are independent of their own team, and 2) as soon as you Pursuit the counter or overload it, there is nothing to stop Landorus's sweep (if it can begin sweeping at all). It doesn't work that way. I've already given you an example. You can Pursuit the Latias, then in comes SubSD Terrakion and sets up in your face. I know you can now bring in Scizor into the picture to stop the Terrakion, but you can see already the number of confounding errors that has come up. When's Landorus starting its next sweep? Chances are that something else on the opposing team has set up on Pursuit or whatever else you did, and all Landorus is is some other Pokemon that get swept aside. There are so many things that could go on that link Latias Pursuited, Landorus sweep. To do so is just an overly naive assertion. I could put forward just a flawed argument like "Salamence is broken because all of its checks are easily trapped and killed by Wobbuffet and it sweeps easily after that" (actually true in most cases). It's wrong because you can trap whatever Scarf Keldeo, or Mamoswine, or whatever, but that doesn't necessarily mean that Salamence can sweep. Same is true for the Landorus case.

    On the weather inducers case, the power difference is very different from with Landorus. Firstly Venusaur isn't even broken, so let's not go there. You are all still not getting what I'm saying. I'm not saying Landorus's brokenness is independent of the ease in which its checks can easily be removed. I'm saying that you cannot base your entire argument around this (seriously, I have not seen a single convincing argument addressing Landorus' other qualities, if any, that signify that it's broken). Back to my DNA example. Suspect X (Landorus) is LIKELY to be the murderer (broken in OU) because his DNA sample was found at the crime scene (its counters are easily removed with team support), but you cannot say "Suspect X IS the murderer BECAUSE his DNA was found at the crime scene". You need more convincing bits of evidence than just this.
  13. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

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    First and foremost you always assume that you are able to predict the Latios switch-in and use HP Ice at the right time wich can be pretty difficult in real battle conditions. HP Ice is Landorus weakest attack and everything that isn't weak to ice wont even take a scratch from that while almo0st everything in OU thats not choice locked into an Electric, Ground or Fighting attack can do alot of damage to Landorus so HP Ice is very often an extremly risky move that can of course pay of but you make it sound like hitting Latios with HP Ice on the switch-in is something that is going to happen 90% of the time. What qualifies Latios as a counter is that it is immune to Landorus stab move and resistant to its much more powerful (albeit unreliable) coverage move sure it takes heavy damage from both U-Turn and HP Ice, but like Shrang already said it will always survive at least one of these attacks and be able to retaliate.
    Sure it is not a completly perfect counter like Chansey or Celebie is but for offensive teams it isn't necessary to use hard counter to anything, because you main way to check and counter something is momentum and prediction. This is why i think that even though you are able to take out all of Landos counters with Tyranitar you will also lose all momentum the moment you lock Tyranitar into Pursuit wich can be deadly because as already a lot of people mentioned there are a shit ton of threatening sweepers that can effortlessly set-up in such a situation therefore making it a risky move.


    Yeah Landorus is powerful, but there are so many other powerful Pokemon in the game right now that i don't think Landorus-I is so much more outstanding and strong that it should get banned/suspected. many People say that you can't just balance broken threats with other broken threats, but a lot of OU pokemon would be completly broken in UU but are not broken in OU because all the other "broken" threats balance it.
    I really don't like this ban the next best thing attitude until we have a "balanced" metagame because that is a point we will most likely never reach in Gen 5 unless we ban so many things that we will esetially play Gen 4 OU with Team preview and some lesser Gen 5 pokemon that replace the old gen pokemon who got a power boost and also got banned (for all people interested in such a game you might want to take a look at UU). This whole problem will most likely get worse in Gen 6 since i seriously doubt that it is even possible to boost defensive play anymore outside of heavy mechanics changes or ridicolous high BST pokemon, but it is more likely that we will get more 120 BP+ attacks and even higher offensive Base Stats.
  14. tintinwong

    tintinwong

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    I think landorus shares many similarities with genesect. It can run either a u-turn set or a rock polish sweeper set making it unpredictable, and both of them also have a good coverage move pool, and a great ability, but both of them have counters too. However, they can partner with another pokemon that can trap their counter and kill them. Genesect can pair with dugtrio to kill heatran, and landorus can partner with tyranitar to kill latas and celebi.

    Although landorus shares many similarities with genesect, it has one main difference, the typing. Genesect has 7 resistances and a single 4x weakness, which can be reduced by rain. Landorus has 3 resistances and 2 weaknesses, one being a 4x, and not only that, landorus has a sligtly lower defensive stat, making it harder for it to set up.

    genesect achieved around 67% vote for uber and some of them was becuase it was overcentralizing, and landorus is weaker than genesect, so even though landorus is a very strong sweeper, i dont think it should be suspect tested.
  15. alexwolf

    alexwolf Rain Summoner
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    Yeah Ojama i do, because it is time you stop putting words in my mouth.

    Latios is not Pursuit bait because you can't just trap him, you need to sacrifice something first, unless using SpD Ttar. Pursuit bait is something that is helpless or almost helpless against a Pursuit user, such as Substitute Latias, non Baton Pass or HP Fire Celebi, etc. So of 'course Latios can be trapped with Pursuit, but not as easy as the word bait implies.

    Also BKC i find it very convincing that according to you, the only people that make good arguments here are the ones whose side you are with, and they are also the only people that speak like they have played the game. Because if someone has played the game and hasn't had troubles with Landorus to the extend of wanting to suspect him, then his arguments must be terrible, just because you don't agree with them right? I get it that many people have different opinions on the matter, but for a mod to come out and call every argument that is against his side bad just because he doesn't agree with it is very disturbing. You can't be seriously claiming that every single person here not wanting to suspect Landorus hasn't made good arguments...
  16. Spaniard

    Spaniard

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    @Rayquaza_

    Saying Landorus can overpower the whole metagame because most pursuiters can rip appart it's would be counters is actually a very valid argument.

    There's a very simple combo with landorus that gives overpowered advantage. You, however give no evidence to support your view.

    I could explain why magnezone doesn't counter most steels in the meta and thus dragon is not as overpowered as you imply. But that's not what we are discussing.
  17. Ojama

    Ojama May your scattered remains entertain me
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    SCARFTYRANITAR ALEXWOLF ??????????????????????

    Thing is that whether it's Landorus-I or Dragon Type Pokemons, they both can sweep an entire Team without their best partner (Tyranitar / Magnezone) and that's probably what people didn't understand yet. Landorus-I is able to sweep an entire Team alone even if the opponent is using a Latios or a Celebi.
  18. Curtains

    Curtains

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    Ojama, scarf tyranitar is serious set up bait. The tyranitar land-i combo is really easy to break up if you know what you are doing. According to your strategy all I have to do is spam specs/lo surf or leaf storm and kill the tyranitar. Once Tyranitar is gone there is no more pursuit trapping and I am up a pokemon. I still haven't seen a post that clearly demonstrates that landorus has a nagging strain on team building like genosect had. Yes it has a strong earth power.... but how does it effectively beat pokemon in the air without risking being set up on or risking a tyranitar.

    Also land-i CANNOT sweep entire teams. Show me one game between decent players where landorus sweeps even 3 pokemon midgame/late game. Unless you hit the lottery and your opponent has 6 fire types on the ground or you manage to hit 2-3 focus blast you are not sweeping entire pokemon teams with it ON ITS OWN. With team building and support (hazards/good play/weakening of counters) it can sweep like any other threat.
  19. kd24

    kd24 yo daddy musta been a drug dealer? why, cuz you're dope
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    So I personally think this thread is going in circles now. The poll is almost 50/50 and has wavered from that very little. I'm going to summarize both sides here the best I can; I thank everyone for taking part in this discussion and I thank most of you for taking some time to post your thoughts. I was very lenient on some posts and as this forum moves forward, I'm going to begin cracking down even more on people to gave evidence to their reasoning.

    Pro-Suspect:
    - Overwhelms the opponents with partners and by itself
    - Almost no safe switch-ins
    - Shuts down defensive teams
    - Is too dangerous of a sweeper after Rock Polish
    - Is controversial enough among the community for a suspect test

    Anti-Suspect:
    - Each variation of Landorus has a hard counter
    - It has a series of checks and balances that prevent it from ever doing too much damage
    - It doesn't switch in easily
    - It has to rely on a low accuracy attack often

    You don't have to agree with the other side, this is just what each respective side is saying. Hopefully this is pretty accurate but that is really what this conversation has boiled down to. I hope that Council makes their decision soon, and hopefully addresses each of these bullet points regardless of their decision.
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