Landorus-I Discussion: Evaluating a Potential Suspect

Should Landorus-I get a suspect test?

  • Yes

    Votes: 158 49.5%
  • No

    Votes: 161 50.5%

  • Total voters
    319
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I saw someone mention SpD Defensive Skarmory as a check but what does Skarmory actually do to Landours? Brave Bird only 3HKO's and the recoil damage helps Landours. Roost actually means he'll gain a weakness to Ground and Fighting so be wary.

Moltres & Zapdos counter but only if SR isn't up. Scarf Adamant Gyarados is a good counter because it can survive any of his moves after SR and OHKO with Waterfall, gaining a free Moxie boost.

Edit: Oh yeah forgot that Skarmory is slower than Landorus, WTF is wrong with me? Thanks for pointing that out GatoDelFuego.
 

GatoDelFuego

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I saw someone mention SpD Defensive Skarmory as a check but what does Skarmory actually do to Landours? Brave Bird only 3HKO's and the recoil damage helps Landours. Roost actually means he'll gain a weakness to Ground and Fighting so be wary.
This post makes sense but roost will not give him weaknesses, as his typing goes back at the end of the turn and skarm is slower than landorus, so its typing won't change for the purpose of lando's attacks.

It still isn't that good of a counter/check.
 
They'll run out of Focus Blast PP pretty fast, actually.

252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (+SAtk) Focus Blast vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+SpDef): 59% - 70% (200 - 236 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.

Uh. Nevermind. Actually...

252SpAtk Life Orb Sheer Force Landorus (+SAtk) Hidden Power (Ice) vs 252HP/252SpDef Leftovers Sturdy Skarmory (+SpDef): 27% - 32% (91 - 107 HP). Guaranteed 4HKO.

So, if you switch in on Earth Power or a low damage roll HP Ice, without Rocks on the field, and proceed to spam Roost, SpDef Skarm has a decent chance of stalling Landorus out of Focus Blast. Of course, if they predict the switch-in and tag you with Focus Blast, you're shit out of luck. I don't like it, that's a very conditional check.
 
Couldn't you just say the same thing with SpD Zapdos though? As long as it doesn't switch directly into HP Ice, it can just keep spamming Roost to stall.
 
Although it is very powerful, it doesn't actually fair off very well 1 vs 1 against a lot of common threats since the meta game is full of keldeo, lati@s, politoed, mamoswine and many more pokemon that it can't always beat 1 vs 1, also something to consider is that it has a very hard time switching into stuff especially with rain being everywhere.
 
HP Ice has WAY more PP than Focus Blast, though Zapdos weathers HP Ice hits much better. If you switched in without Rocks on Earth Power, you could Toxic THEN Roost stall. Either way, not too good of odds.

It just occurred to me that this could all be seen as "Man, look how tough Landorus is to wall! Maybe he's a problem!" No, not even close. Not while Drizzle and Drought are still in the metagame. He's a very good sweeper who needs potential revenge killers (again, Mamoswine, THE anti-metagame Pokemon) and walls removed, just like every other fucking sweeper in this game.

Actually, I'd like to touch on why priority is a big deal, because Ginga was telling us to bring better info or GTFO, no more "but Ice Shard!" I find it very odd that the most common Pokemon in the metagame is no longer an acceptable answer. I find it very odd the admitted best anti-metagame Pokemon (who ranked at #22 in the "1337" stats for February) is no longer an acceptable answer. Bullet Punch hurts. Ice Shard outright OHKOs. Outrunning Venusaur has mostly stopped being an option, with the only recourse left being to wall him (difficult with multiple Growth boosts) or ignore his speed with priority. What makes Landorus so different? In fact, there are NO priority attacks that OHKO a fully healthy Venusaur, when we've got Mamoswine's Ice Shard RIGHT THERE that cleans out Landorus the vast majority of the time. ESpeed from everything that gets it hurts like hell, and again, we've been using Bullet Punch to stop runaway sweeps since 2008. What makes Landorus so goddamn special?
 
Pressured Hidden Power has an effective 12 PP, four more than Focus Blast's 8, and this is without accounting how EVERY Hidden Power will connect, whereas Focus Blast has a .04% chance of landing 8 consecutive times.
 
HP Ice still does less than half to 248 HP / 236+ SpD Zapdos, so it can be Roosted. It also takes LO recoil from HP Ice, so its not going to enjoy spamming it.
 
to address hardcore's post & anyone who may be thinking along similar lines: if you want to keep landorus just because the metagame might become worse afterwards, that's not how we do things. we don't keep (potentially) broken mons in the metagame just because the metagame might become subjectively worse after their ban.

sp def skarmory is a very shaky check, btw.
 
to address hardcore's post & anyone who may be thinking along similar lines: if you want to keep landorus just because the metagame might become worse afterwards, that's not how we do things. we don't keep (potentially) broken mons in the metagame just because the metagame might become subjectively worse after their ban.

sp def skarmory is a very shaky check, btw.
The irony with what you said is that Politoed is still in OU. Exactly due to the reasons you said Smogon doesn't do things by.

On topic I think the real reason why Landorus is so threatening at the moment is because it IS a wall breaker and/or sweeper that can so easily be combined with other dangerous pokemon that synergise so well with little drawback. I can't see this is as broken though and I don't like the parallels drawn to terrakion saying "terrakion must be banded". Landorus isn't the only pokemon that can hold a life orb..
 
Specially Defensive CM Sableye anybody?

I think Landorus-I is an amazingly powerful Pokemon but there's one key flaw that really holds it back in this metagame, its pathetic 101 speed. Seriously, we use 108-110 Choice Scarf users in OU nowadays so 101 is pretty laughable. It's not much higher than the completely uncounterable Hydreigon (although getting the jump on Mence and Volca is pretty cool) and nobody would consider bothering to suspect that at the moment (Mind you there are some key differences but you get the point). Even with Rock Polish that poor speed means Lando is going to almost always going to tank an attack before setting up or taking a kill. Landorus is bulky but not THAT bulky meaning revenge killing (as well as one time checks from bulky Pokemon that can stomach a single attack) is a genuine concern and a viable argument as a forced switch is going to bother him. (Unlike Genesect who completely dominated the game by granting the user near constant momentum or Tornadus who could immediately start taking kills while healing off minor damage when avoiding a revenge kill.) Landorus may have the immediate wall breaking power but it doesn't pack the team cleaning speed that is much more important in such a massively offensively oriented metagame. (Heck, even Keldeo is arguably a more appealing suspect for this reason alone.) Mind you I'm not saying this means it shouldn't be suspected or even banned, just that this is a pretty crucial flaw that shouldn't be overlooked just because of his access to Rock Polish.

I also agree with Shrang on this mentioning of trappers or overrun strat teammates. While I can't speak for others, I can assure you that I didn't vote ban on Genesect, Tornadus-T, or Deoxys-D (for those bringing up Lando's ability to change up its set to change its list of checks and counters) because it paired up well with a trapper or because it was a efficient member in overrun strategies. (which isn't something that was born with Keldeo, Tyranitar and Landorus) Each of these guys had key characteristics that let them work their way past their checks/counters all by themselves or provide significant team support. (Tornadus had regenerator, Genesect had god-like momentum grabbing powers, and Deoxys-D almost always set up the game breaking SR + Spikes) I could argue that a well timed Baton Pass to Dugtrio on your Celebi hungry Tyranitar or a Jellicent + Celebi + Gothitelle combo are reasons to not ban Landorus. All this says is that Landorus-I fits well into the metagame. These are definitely additional factors to consider when trying to weigh the scale but I don't like these as the main arguments to support a suspect/ban. !viable Landorus-I

That said, I have no problem with suspecting Landorus-I. It's silly to say there aren't any arguments to push for a ban and, no matter what, it'll at least put this issue to rest. (and give me a reason to bother with this piece of crap known as BW2 OU for a few hours again) I also feel that we really need to make a difference between the Dream World Landorus-I and the normal one with a change of Pokeballs (or some other alternative to at least reflect this part of the cartridge mechanics) as giving a Pokemon as dangerous as Lando a pseudo Illusion definitely makes it ban-worthy otherwise.
 

ginganinja

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Actually, I'd like to touch on why priority is a big deal, because Ginga was telling us to bring better info or GTFO, no more "but Ice Shard!" I find it very odd that the most common Pokemon in the metagame is no longer an acceptable answer. I find it very odd the admitted best anti-metagame Pokemon (who ranked at #22 in the "1337" stats for February) is no longer an acceptable answer.
That would be because Bullet Punch only 2KOs...while Landorus flat out smokes you with Earth Power. Sure, im not going to ignore that priority is a nice answer for forcing out Landorus, and for taking out weakened ones, but the "Ice Shard means Landorus-I isn't suspect worthy" arguement is terrible since you actually need to get your priority user in safely (for Mamoswine and Scizor your left with switching in on an HP Ice / RP) and Landorus really loses nothing from just switching back out to something that can take an Ice Attack pretty well. This places zero risk on the Landorus-I player while the priority user is under pressure trying to predict whether its staying in or not, if it predicts wrong, then he is either giving up a "basically" free switch to the Mamoswine check, or his Mamoswine is getting OHKOed and the Landorus sweeps. So you understand while many decent players dislike the "Priority wins HEHE" argument when it doesn't actually do a great job at solving the problem. And yea, you need Azumarril / Mamoswine / Weavile to OHKO, otherwise your priority users toast.

Reason #2 why the argument isn't a good one is because it had little relevence for previous suspect mons. For instance, Thundurus-I was Ice Shard weak, and ExtremeSpeed would do a truckload, etc etc and we still banned it. Excadrill was Mach Punch weak, SV Chomp was Ice Shard weak, Tornadus-T was Ice Shard weak etc etc. Note that I am not directly attempting to compare Landorus-I with these banned pokemon, the point I am merely trying to make is that being weak to priority is not a reason to not suspect test something, which is WHY I and others dislike the priority argument so much.

I think Landorus-I is an amazingly powerful Pokemon but there's one key flaw that really holds it back in this metagame, its pathetic 101 speed.
Actually 101 base speed still outruns a large part of the metagame. Its arguably not the "key" speed to hit in BW2 (like base 100 was in DPP) but you do outrun a significant portion of the metagame, enough for U-Turn + 4 Attacks Landorus-I to be very threatening and just shoot off boosted attacks.
 
At the same time, a lot of the slightly slower threats have just enough bulk to tank a hit if need be and do something back. (plus, Rock Polish is a free turn so there is still a risk to setting up) For example, all the S rank Pokemon (I'm just going to scroll down the Viability list) either outspeed unboosted Lando-I or have the natural bulk to tank an attack.

In A rank, Loom is going to be a coin flip between attacking or boosting, same for Dnite except he has Espeed as well, Ferrothorn is screwed by FBlast (but it can still be trolly with Seeds or Gyro), Heatran without Ballon is going to be taking a heavy risk trying to attack, Spdef Hippo can tank a blow and bite hard with Ice Fang (otherwise this is safe setup), Rachi has Body Slam to watch out for but it's obviously not liking EP, Kyruem-B is dangerous to setup on but Focus Blast nukes it as well as EP after SR (often times at least), Lando-T is only a bother if it has HP Ice, Ninetales is in a tight spot and probably not going to stick around to attack, Mence is almost always scarfed but otherwise 101 trolls it, Spdef Skarm is going to be annoying but Physical is setup fodder, TTar is worried about EP but it can bite if Lando RPs. Everything else in A tier isn't going to be something Lando is going to want to stay in on. (Cept Celebi for 4 attacks) That's only 12/21 Pokemon and that is assuming they don't run some of their more common sets.

B rank has a lot of those defensive checks/counters that are mentioned here. (I guess that does say something about Lando though) There's only Forry, Gliscor, Haxorus, Kingdra, Hydreigon, Kyurem, Lucario, Zone, Sableye, Tentacruel, Toxicroak, and Volcarona that are going to be bothered by 4 attacks. That's again just 12/32 assuming they don't run Scarf or something and just about all of those don't really scream setup fodder either.

Basically, Lando-I isn't setting up a Rock Polish willy-nilly without any risk involved. Just about all of these are slow priority abusers or defensive Pokemon (that have a glaring weakness or don't invest in Spdef) which pretty much confirms that Lando-I has the raw power to dismantle defensive cores but it is going to have a hard time doing much against offensive teams. (without the Rock Polish boost) At least Deo-D didn't care if it died laying down a faster layer of Spikes and it could also pull out random victims with Red Card. Most players are going to be fairly conservative with the Pokemon that Lando-I can setup on (not to mention a lot of these are hard to switch into) which'll starve it of setup opportunities and, thus, playing time. Not trying to say these sets are crap or anything but the 4 attacks is definitely hurting its general viability by throwing out RP and even the Rock Polish set isn't exactly brain-less. (or, well, no more brain-less than most of OU)


Edit: Just a quicky but reason #1 isn't exactly accurate as priority attack will have successfully forced Lando-I out. Again, it's too slow in the Offense match-up so losing that Rock Polish boost is a pretty big deal for it. #2 Either lists suspects banned in BW1 (a very different metagame) or Pokemon that didn't mind a forced switch as they weren't reliant on a boost to pose or threat or hazards weak. (Tornadus and Excadrill for example)
 

shrang

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I think what people are trying to say is that priority is one way to check Landorus, and you cannot just ignore it. This is especially true if you Landorus has taken even a bit of prior damage, which isn't unlikely (SR damage, Pokemon X attacking on the turn you use RP).
 

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Well no point in somehow pretending that scizor (BP 2hko) and Mamoswine/Weavile (Ice Shard OHKO)don't exist in this meta.
Ground/Flying not exactly the most stellar defensive typing either
 

dcae

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I was against the suspecting of Landorus the moment I saw this thread, so call me biased. However, I set about playtesting extensively with Landorus, and realized how much of a threat he was. The best cleaner of weakened teams after a Rock Polish or a brilliant lure with U-turn, Landorus contributes to victories all the time. However, one huge thorn in my side was Scizor. The omnipresent metal bug could OTK me after my Rock Polish because during my setup turn, my opponent is just going to attack, even if it is a weak attack, just to try to rack some damage. This generally drags it into priority killing zone. Consequently, Landorus is prone to priority, and since it is so common, I think it should be a valid problem. However, the sheer power this thing brings to the table is unsurpassed in OU, and thus weakened teams without counters cannot take this guy on. Bulky Politoed on Rain teams always stomachs an EP after SR and can OTK back, but late-game, it is too weak to do this. Thus, I think that Landorus should be suspected, if only for the fact that it puts so much pressure on the opponent. This can oftentimes be gamebreaking, which is why Landorus deserves to at least be suspected.
 
ginganinja said:
priority OHKOs / 2KOs it (just like Tornadus-T which we suspected and then banned).
There is a big difference between lando and the other suspects in terms of priority weakness, though.
Tornadus: Heals every time it switches out. That "prior damage" needed for kos/even to wear it down with priority itself is much more difficult
Thundurus: Weak to ONE semi-rare priority move.
252 Atk Life Orb Mamoswine Ice Shard vs 0 HP/0 Def Thundurus: 77.26% - 91.3%
2 hits to KO

And that 2x as opposed to 4x matters a lot.
Excadrill: Weak to 2 priorities, both of which were very rare until the excadrill era came around. Not to mention that things like technician breloom were not existant, so the strongest mach punch available was conk which, again, doesn't come close to koing
etc.etc.

Landorus is vulnerable to the most common priority move, will be killed by the second most common, and even has an aqua jet weakness and extremespeed vulnerability to top it off.

There is a clear, undeniable difference.
 

Pocket

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Melee Mewtwo is spot on - we cannot simply ignore priority in a Landorus suspect discussion.

We also cannot ignore the fact that Landorus does not start off with 550+ Speed like Excadrill - it REQUIRES a turn of set up, a turn of vulnerability. Making the most of this turn is vital.

When we apply these two together, we come to the conclusion that Landorus will frequently be in priority KO range after it tanks a hit to Rock Polish (+ SR). If it's forced out, it will more than likely not have a chance to set up Rock Polish again. So, priority DOES place a risk in Landorus-I - it will either forces out Landorus-I, which will then not be able to set up Rock Polish for the rest of the game, or die to priority. Not to mention that Landorus-I has NO way to tank a STAB Ice Shard from the likes of Mamoswine and Abomasnow, turning either presence into an automatic insurance from a Lando-I sweep; as long as your Ice Shard user is around, Lando-I cannot sweep ever.

101 base Speed is fast, but mid-tier fast - it is outpaced by Lati@s and Keldeo, not to mention every single Scarfer. Add that to a list of strong priorities available in OU, and we have quite a sizable number of checks for Landorus-I.

BKC said:
if you want to keep landorus just because the metagame might become worse afterwards, that's not how we do things. we don't keep (potentially) broken mons in the metagame just because the metagame might become subjectively worse after their ban.
Yep, you should not avoid banning because of the possible negative aftermath of such ban. However, all good bans should only yield a better metagame, so I do not find this fear a pertinent one. If Landorus-I does indeed bring more good than bad to the current metagame, then banning it would be a wrong decision.
 
Melee Mewtwo is spot on - we cannot simply ignore priority in a Landorus suspect discussion.

We also cannot ignore the fact that Landorus does not start off with 550+ Speed like Excadrill - it REQUIRES a turn of set up, a turn of vulnerability. Making the most of this turn is vital.
It should be noted that while Excadrill starts off with 550+ Speed, it needs to take a turn to boost its power with Swords Dance. Either way, both take a turn to get to their maximum potential, so its kind of a moot point.
 
If Landorus-I does indeed bring more good than bad to the current metagame, then banning it would be a wrong decision.
If it's broken, it doesn't matter if it "brings more good than bad to the current metagame". We ban it.
 

Pocket

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All broken things are broken, because they are bad for the metagame. A Pokemon that's good for the metagame wouldn't be broken x_x

So yes, I do agree that we should ONLY ban broken mons.

In a similar vein, one should never ban a Pokemon that's broken in his or her "ideal metagame" - if the suspect is not broken in the current meta, then it's OU, even if say Landorus may be theorized to be broken in a weatherless metagame (doesn't exist). Just putting this out there, so people wont make this mistake.
 
Damn, deleted my post by accident. Anyway, I think you guys are simply misunderstanding BKC because he was responding to Landorus-I keeping other things in check. I will make a rare example here while simultaneously putting this out there: This discussion WILL NOT become about the Pokemon I use in my random example or the perfect metagame, that is a thread Pocket is planning down the road.

I deleted the post but let's use Lugia as my example. If it was OU it would keep in check Landorus-I, Dragons, Keldeo, and other monstrosities in OU atm. But Lugia as we know is clearly Uber for how destructive it would be in the metagame (unkillable set up tank that will basically never die). This is why the "broken but good for the metagame" argument is terrible. We should look at things based only on their merit compared to the metagame and if they're broken, not what they "could" keep in check.

I'm sorry about having to bring Lugia as an example here but this argument was about to go in circles when you're both right. We shouldn't ban things solely because they're not fitting our idea of a perfect or easier meta but we shouldn't allow broken things even if they're doing good things of keeping other Pokemon in check? Does this make any sense? God, I hope so :P - Let's please continue the discussion and focus solely on if Landorus-I is too good, until we decide that isn't how we suspect things. Don't try and change it in this thread, talk to me personally about your views and we can try and discuss it further elsewhere. But this is a thread about Landorus-I and if it is worthy of being Suspect.
 

alexwolf

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to address hardcore's post & anyone who may be thinking along similar lines: if you want to keep landorus just because the metagame might become worse afterwards, that's not how we do things. we don't keep (potentially) broken mons in the metagame just because the metagame might become subjectively worse after their ban.

sp def skarmory is a very shaky check, btw.
This is, if we believe that those Pokemon are broken in the first place. Also SpD Skarmory is not a shitty check, it is a good one from my expereince, as it can switch into anything Landorus throws at it except for Focus Blast, and even Focus Blast will 2HKO only 49% of the time, meaning that most of the time Skarmory will manage to get in and PP stall Landorus of Focus Blast pps.
 

Meru

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This is, if we believe that those Pokemon are broken in the first place. Also SpD Skarmory is not a shitty check, it is a good one from my expereince, as it can switch into anything Landorus throws at it except for Focus Blast, and even Focus Blast will 2HKO only 49% of the time, meaning that most of the time Skarmory will manage to get in and PP stall Landorus of Focus Blast pps.
Your attempts throughout this thread to grasp at straws to find any counter possible are making my eyes bleed. Ignoring the fact that SpD Skarmory is hardly even viable (hint: it's not. If it was, it would've become a thing during the Tornadus-T metagame), Skarmory's response to the threat of Landorus-I is to spam Roost, which does nothing but give free turns to the opponent, as anything can switch in on that. This is in addition to Skarmory having to out-predict the Landorus user. Lol. Rest Talk Gyarados also is not good, as Rest mechanics this generation blow chunks. Zapdos, another pokemon that is barely viable in this meta, also responds to Landorus with Roost spam and shaky prediction methods. Bronzong has no reliable recovery and is nonexistant in this meta, aka why it dropped down to UU.

Really, half of you are suggesting the reason we shouldn't suspect Landorus-I is because we can PP stall it...? And because we can hope for Focus Blast misses??
 
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