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Lanturn (OU Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by Jonathan, May 14, 2010.

  1. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/lanturn

    [OVERVIEW]
    <h4>OU</h4>
    <p>Despite the many Water- and Electric-types in OU, Lanturn fills a unique niche in the OU metagame: resistances to some of the most common special attacks, a 4x resistance to Steel, immunity to Thunder Wave, and fantastic coverage between his two STABs and Ice Beam are all very appealing. Lanturn is the closest thing you will find to a 100% counter to Life Orb Starmie and Substitute + Thunder Wave Jirachi, both of whom run rampant in today's metagame.

    Like most UU Pokemon used in OU, Lanturn is very much a high risk, high reward type of Pokemon. While the above-mentioned benefits are great, Lanturn's mediocre Speed and low Defense often put it at the mercy of OU's top physical threats. In addition, both of Lanturn's OU sets require a fair amount of luck to reach their maximum effectiveness. If you're feeling daring though and want to add a little color to your team, give Lanturn a splash!</p>

    [SET]
    name: OU SubCharge
    move 1: Substitute
    move 2: Charge Beam
    move 3: Hydro Pump / Surf
    move 4: Ice Beam
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Volt Absorb
    nature: Modest
    evs: 52 HP / 252 SpA / 148 SpD / 56 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Lanturn's unique typing and valuable ability give him plenty of free switches in the OU metagame. However, his mediocre Special Attack, Speed, and ability to lure Blissey in without fail have always relegated Lanturn to using parafusion sets. This set attempts to fix that through Substitute and Charge Beam, turning Lanturn into a surprisingly dangerous mid-game Pokemon, capable of seriously denting the opponent's team.</p>

    <p>Substitute will usually be the first move you use. Many of the Pokemon Lanturn easily comes in on are likely to switch out, and Substitute allows you to safely pick your next move. It also blocks status moves from Blissey and Vaporeon who often think they can stall Lanturn to death with Toxic. After Substitute, your next move is dictated by whoever switches in. Hydro Pump deals over 50% to most Machamp, Metagross, Scizor, Tyranitar, and Jirachi. Ice Beam is for Dragons, Gliscor, and Breloom. If you're met with bulkier Pokemon like Blissey, Zapdos, or Celebi, Charge Beam away and then hit them with Hydro Pump or Ice Beam when you're ready.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The lack of Thunderbolt may be surprising at first glance, but Charge Beam is really the better move for this set. Unlike other Electric-type Pokemon, Lanturn's Water STAB allows him to run only Hydro Pump or Surf as his powerful STAB attack. The most common offensive switch-ins to Lanturn are hit equally hard by Surf as they are by Thunderbolt (Tyranitar actually being hit harder by Surf). Against bulky Water-types where an Electric-type attack is needed, Charge Beam is more than enough. Most bulky Water-types can't touch Lanturn in the first place, so you are free to chip away at their health and stat up. Charge Beam also allows Lanturn to beat many Pokemon who would usually use an instant recovery move in his face repeatedly. Hydro Pump is recommended over Surf on this set for the OHKO on Heatran and the 2HKO on the aforementioned Pokemon. Surf also ruins any shot at taking Blissey down, something that can usually be done with Hydro Pump and a couple of Charge Beams. Surf is still an option for more conservative players, but Lanturn really needs all the power he can get for this set to be effective.</p>

    <p>52 HP EVs let you make 101 HP Substitutes, which together with Leftovers recovery and Charge Beam/Hydro Pump will more often than not let you take down Seismic Toss Blissey. The Speed EVs put you at 184 Speed, one point ahead of the standard Vaporeon. This is important as it allows you to set up on Vaporeon before he can Toxic you. The investment also helps against the occasional Scizor, Machamp, Tyranitar, or Metagross with a minimal investment in Speed. Special Attack is maxed to cause as much damage as possible with Lanturn's fantastic coverage. The rest is dumped in Special Defense, as Lanturn's resistances to common special attacks help his ability to switch in and general survivability in the long run. With the above spread, Grass Knot (which hits for 40 Base Power) from a Defensive Celebi has a 50% chance not to break Lanturn's Substitute.</p>

    <p>Depending on your opponent's team and playstyle, this Lanturn usually ends up being used in one of two ways: as a hit-and-run Pokemon, or as a setup sweeper. You will find opportunities to switch Lanturn in against the majority of OU teams, whether it be into a bulky Water-types or into choiced Electric- or Steel-type attacks. Lanturn's ability to force switches gives many opportunities to use Substitute, which prepares you for either playing style depending on your opponent's answer to Lanturn. If your opponent relies on bulky Pokemon like Machamp, Swampert, or Metagross to check Lanturn, using Lanturn as a hit-and-run attacker is recommended. Against stall teams using Charge Beam is preferred, but make sure you keep Lanturn away from Toxic Spikes. One-on-one against Blissey, Lanturn will usually come out on top with 20-30% health left, a number of Charge Beam boosts and possibly a Substitute up; this means Lanturn will often be left in a position to take a second Pokemon down. Charge Beaming up against Calm Mind sweepers however, most notably Suicune and Jirachi, is more dangerous and should generally not be resorted to. Lanturn will need a critical hit to beat such opponents, but considering Suicune and Jirachi will need several Calm Minds to pose a threat to Lanturn, you stand a good chance of getting one with Charge Beam.</p>

    [TEAM OPTIONS]
    <h4>OU</h4>
    <p>Gyarados partners wonderfully with Lanturn, as he often lures bulky Water-types and Electric-type attacks, both of which Lanturn loves to take on. If you want to go for a more defensive teammate, Skarmory is a great candidate; the two cover each others' weaknesses perfectly. Toxic Spikes can also help Lanturn when Charge Beaming up against bulkier Pokemon like Celebi and Blissey, providing insurance against such threats in the event that Charge Beam misses or doesn't raise your Special Attack. They also help against Swampert, turning Hydro Pump into a 2HKO.</p>

    [COUNTERS]
    <h4>OU</h4>
    <p>Without a Substitute up on the SubCharge set, most of OU's physical threats can easily force Lanturn out, as they will usually be faster than Lanturn. Be careful switching such Pokemon into Lanturn though, as between Lanturn's offensive coverage and the possibility of having a Substitute up, Lanturn can severely weaken many of them. For this reason Flygon with U-turn makes a particularly good counter to SubCharge Lanturn, as he can remove Lanturn's Substitute and switch to an appropriate counter in the same turn. When using the Parafusion set, Lanturn becomes a lot harder to take down in one blow, especially if the opponent is not immune to Thunder Wave. For this reason Ground-type Pokemon with a powerful Earthquake, such as Swampert, are strongly recommended to effectively deal with this set. Snorlax with Earthquake is a phenomenal switch-in to Lanturn, not particularly caring about paralysis and able to take the assaults of SubCharge sets with ease. Not many special attackers can switch into Lanturn without putting themselves at serious risk. Jolteon with Hidden Power Grass can switch into the Parafusion set well, as Ice Beam won't do too much to him.</p>

    <p>As far as defensive Pokemon go, Swampert deserves special mention as the only bulky Water-type capable of handling Lanturn: Hydro Pump is only a 3HKO, while Earthquake will scare Lanturn away. Note that Swampert cannot switch repeatedly into Lanturn however, as he will quickly succumb to Hydro Pump. Celebi with Leaf Storm also poses a threat to Lanturn, as it is not even 2HKOed by Ice Beam. Grass Knot is a laughing matter for Lanturn though, as it hits for 40 Base Power. Blissey can handle Lanturn if she comes in when Lanturn is low on health, but be wary of a Charge Beam sweep if she comes in on a Lanturn with over 70% health or a Substitute.</p>
  2. Phantom_IV

    Phantom_IV

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    Fyi, you need to link to the analysis of the pokemon.

    For example http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/lanturn

    Looks reasonable as a set. Lanturn's low special attack might be an issue though... Pokemon like Latias can easily take 2 Ice Beams.

    And hm! You should mention that it counters the most annoying set in the game, Sub Twave Jirachi, something very few pokemon can boast!
  3. Snorlaxe

    Snorlaxe 2 kawaii 4 u
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    Looks like a pretty cool set :)
  4. ARandomDude

    ARandomDude

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    Don't forget that Lanturn can't set up on Swampert due to resistance to Charge Beam, while Swampert can Roar away boosts or threaten with STAB Earthquake.
  5. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    Thanks for the read-through Snorlaxe! I implemented all your changes except for removing the hyphen in switch-in (or switch in as you suggest). In all cases I use the word "in" after switch-in and it just looks awkward. But if someone else thinks I should remove the hyphen I'll take it out.

    Thanks for the tip Phantom IV, I did just that. Yes Latias can be a pain to deal with and is a common switch-in into Lanturn. Matchups with Latias are interesting because they can go so many ways. Switching in on a Scarf/Specs Surf/Thunderbolt turns Latias into setup bait. But usually when Latias switches into Lanturn there's not much you can do but let it break your sub, hit it with a weakish Ice Beam, then switch out. Of course if you have a Charge Beam Boost already it's a different story. Also the fact that Substitute blocks Trick is quite nice on a stat-upper like Lanturn.

    On the subject of Jirachi, I've never understood the pain of that Sub Twave set, as I always carry Lanturn when I play OU :) Though I can certainly see why it gives most teams trouble. In the analysis I tried to keep my comments generalized about how this Lanturn handles various Pokemon because otherwise it would have gotten too long, do you really think I should add it somewhere?

    Lanturn is always a very safe switch-in into Jirachi, as it sets up on virtually every Jirachi set (except CM sets which run Psychic; though it can handle ones with Thunderbolt and Flash Cannon). Considering how versatile Jirachi is, it's nice to have a Pokemon on your team who 95% of the time can come in safely on Jirachi.

    Yes Swampert can be a pain as you can't setup on it; Hydro Pump does roughly 43% so it's a solid 3HKO. Usually it'll roar you out or try to hit you with earthquake (basically it comes down to whether you have a sub up or not). The thing with Swampert is it can only really forces you out twice at most (and once if you play cleverly).
  6. Snorlaxe

    Snorlaxe 2 kawaii 4 u
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    Actually, in order to make it grammatically correct, it needs to be changed to "switch in". When it has a hyphen, it is being used as a verb, such as in the sentence "Scizor is a good switch-in to Umbreon". Without a hyphen, it is used how you are using it now: "Blissey can switch in on all special attacks with ease". See here for more information. ;)
  7. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    Ah okay I see, and thanks for the link!
  8. mtr

    mtr

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    You need to add an overview section. In it, I suggest you emphasize that Lanturn is particularly valuable as a 100% counter to Starmie, a Pokemon that seriously troubles offensive teams using things like Salamence/Gyarados/Heatran.

    For what it's worth, the set looks interesting.
  9. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    Can you provide some logs of this set being successful please? I can't really see it doing to well, tbh. But I'll withhold my judgment until you can show me some logs. Please don't just cherry pick good logs either, I'd like to see consecutive ladder logs. Thanks.
  10. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    Okay here are a few logs showing Lanturn being used to varying degrees of success. I don't know how to format this nicely so I apologize for that ahead of time. In front of each log is a very brief summary of what Lanturn does.


    Lanturn takes out Tyranitar, stats up against Jirachi and loses to Energy Ball. Switches in on an expected BP from Scizor, but Scizor SDs so Lanturn switches out.
    Show Hide






    Lanturn takes out Latias (Ice Beam freeze) and Breloom. Later on in the match Lanturn takes out Starmie (I played badly here, I could have survived against Starmie with more health; but still this log shows Lanturn handling Starmie).
    Show Hide





    Lanturn takes out another Breloom. Catches Heatran on the switch later with Hydro Pump. Dies against Suicune eventually.
    Show Hide






    Forces Rotom out. Takes out Swampert in two switch ins. Deals big damage to Skarmory and Tyranitar.
    Show Hide





    Lanturn basically takes out his entire team.
    Show Hide




    Lanturn taking out Celebi (Lanturn dies too). I didn't show the entire log as this happens right at the start of the match.
    Show Hide
    Both are left at like 7% and die shortly after.
  11. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    I've been playing this set in ou for a while as well. While it works well like you say, there is a huge flaw. With sub and charge beam, it can stat up, but it is often to slow to attack after the sub was then broken. I also ran into trouble without any recovery, and switching into blissey and vappy just didn't work as they toxicced me.
  12. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    Yes Lanturn's low speed means it won't be sweeping any time soon, but if you play well you should score a ko or two still.

    Regarding Vaporeon and Blissey: I'm assuming they're Toxicing you on the switch-in to Lanturn? This has happened a few times to me against Vaporeon, if I'm feeling especially paranoid I switch to a Steel before switching to Lanturn. But 1v1 against those two you shouldn't be having problems as you're faster and can sub before they status you.
  13. Legacy Raider

    Legacy Raider
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    I'm actually really quite impressed with what this set can pull off. Lanturn is completely unique like you rightfully say and it has this very exclusive niche. Especially when you consider just how big dickshits things like Vaporeon and Suicune can be against an offensive team, and the threat that a LO Starmie can pose to a team without ScarfTar, this Lanturn seems to tick a lot of boxes. Add to that the Thunder Wave immunity, ability to easily come in on CB Scizor's Bullet Punch, and basically the free switch in provided by most bulky Waters, and I think this set can have a lot of promise.

    Content-wise, on an initial read through, it's informative and pretty well written :). One thing - while you mention the adverse effect Toxic Spikes can have on this set and the importance of removing them, perhaps also mention how useful they can be in making this set more successful if you get them up against your opponent. It would make beating Blissey, Celebi, Swampert and co a lot easier.

    EDIT: Also, all Latias references can now be removed since it is Uber :).
  14. Cipher Admin Lovrina

    Cipher Admin Lovrina

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    Aroma Flora showed me a pretty good set using Life Orb and Agility... It takes down anything Life Orb Suicune would, only faster!
  15. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    Thanks for the support, it means a lot coming from a reputable battler. :)
    I rewrote my last paragraph completely: removed mention of Latias, added a blurb about Mixmence as a teammate, and touched on the benefit of Toxic Spikes.
  16. reyscarface

    reyscarface
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    I can attest to how good this set is. I have used it a lot on #stark cups, ladder and on some other tourneys and more often than not it does a good job of setting up and taking out at least one pokemon, it also has swept whole teams due to it setting up easily on things like Standard Wish Bliss (Flamethrower + Toxic is something Lanturn laughs at), CB Scizor, Jirachi, and more. Plus, being a flawless Starmie Counter is great as well!
  17. Peeeka Choo

    Peeeka Choo

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    Omg I use Lanturn for OU too, but none of my friends see the potential it has in that tier ;x They all tell me to switch it for Swampert (which I actually did) .
    I initially used the Para-fusion combo with Lanturn, but I think I like this moveset more (; THink I'm gunna switch back to Lanturn !
  18. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    Hmm, I was skeptical about this set at first, but the fact that it allows Lanturn to be usable in OU does sound a bit appealing to me, especially considering how huge of a threat Sub + Twave Jirachi and LO Starmie are in today's metagame. I can also see this easily setting up on quite a few Pokemon which is pretty cool. I'll test this soon - I'm leaning towards approving this for now though.
  19. Jonathan

    Jonathan

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    Thanks for the support guys, I really appreciate it. If the set gets approved I'll write up the Overview as mtr suggested, as Lanturn doesn't have one for OU at the moment.

    By the way I'm very open to a name change for the set. "OU Substitute" sounds lame but it was the best I could come up with.
  20. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    How about Lan-Turn around the game? Cheesy, right?
  21. Philip7086

    Philip7086 Myuu
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    Well, let's not get ahead of ourselves, lol, it hasn't been approved yet. But for a name, I think OU Sub Beam sounds more appropriate.
  22. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    OU SubCharge is probably the most appropriate.

    Anyway, I'll certainly test this out and see what it's capable of. Looks intriguing, at the very least.
  23. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    In my testing of this set, I find that it works well in early game when you easily come in on a random predictable t-bolt. I have noticed that this set, even when charged and subbed, has problems with Electivire.
  24. Setsuna

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    I'm leaning towards approving this set as well; however, I want to have a closer glance at how it works, so I'm gonna give it a round of testing before deciding anything.
  25. Ndota

    Ndota

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    This Lanturn set seems really cool to use. I will give it a try soontime. :D

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