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Latias (Analysis)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by NatGeo, May 2, 2011.

  1. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    Taking over from chanazn here. He did a good job on the skeleton, so I'm gonna get this through QC. (And now through GP)

    Writeup should be done by Saturday or Sunday

    QC APPROVAL 2/3: [Delta2777] [SevenDeadlySins] [iconic]
    GP APPROVAL 2/2: [Calm Pokemaster] [jc104]


    [​IMG]

    Latias

    Original Thread by Kevin Garrett

    Status: This is done.

    [Overview]

    <p>Traditionally, female figures are not as offensive as their male counterparts, and Latias is no exception to this rule. While she and her brother Latios share the title of fastest Dragon-type in OU at an almost supersonic base 110 Speed, Latios is generally chosen for his mighty base 130 Special Attack, which with Draco Meteor and coverage moves allows him to 2HKO most threats; Latias is outclassed in this offensive role.</p>

    <p>However, Latias is still an Artemis in today's metagame, with a substantial base 110 base Special Attack. At the same time, while Latios has a 130 Special Attack stat, Latias boasts an enormous base 130 Special Defense, allowing to her take much more than Latios could. This gives Latias a niche as a pivot, as she can come in and do one of two things: fire off a Draco Meteor which, though weaker than her brother's, is still very powerful, or set up with Calm Mind, boosting her Special Defense to untouchable levels and making her an offensive juggernaut. She is aided in her offensive endeavors by one key addition in this generation: Psyshock, which allows her to successfully take on Blissey, the bane of almost all other special attackers. Overall, Latias is just as good as her brother, and ignoring her when building a team would be a bad decision.</p>

    [Set]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Substitute / Roar
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [Set Comments]

    <p>While Latios generally prefers hitting straight off the bat, Latias functions well as a defensive pivot, coming in on resisted or neutral attacks and taking little damage thanks to her huge base 130 Special Defense. From there, she can set up with Calm Mind, which allows her to hit like a truck after two or three boosts while being untouchable through special attacks. Recover further enhances her durability, restoring half of her health in a single turn. Leftovers is also a nice boost, giving her additional recovery while negating damage from sandstorm and hail. In terms of attacking, Dragon Pulse is about as good as it gets, providing solid power before boosting while hitting incredibly hard after Calm Mind. Hidden Power Fire hits troublesome Steel-types, namely Ferrothorn and Jirachi, who can otherwise set up on or cripple Latias with status or physical attacks.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>There are a few notable options that could be used over Hidden Power Fire in the final moveslot. The two main options listed besides it, Substitute and Roar, each have their own function. Substitute is a great move for scouting, allowing Latias to safely take an attack which might KO her otherwise. Roar is also an interesting option for phazing the opponent and racking up entry hazard damage, while stopping setup sweepers as well. Aside from those options already listed, Refresh is a neat option that allows Latias to set up without worrying about status, and Reflect allows Latias to take much less damage from physical attacks than she normally would.</p>

    <p>The given EV spread is fairly straight forward; as this set capitalizes on Latias's defenses, she has maximum HP EVs to increase her overall bulkiness. However, maximum Speed EVs are given to make Latias as fast as possible, which can be a big help after several Calm Minds, when most defensive buffs won't exactly be necessary. However, if one feels they can forgo Latias's Speed, an alternative spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe may be used to give her the greatest defensive buff possible. On that note, if one feels Latias needs more power, some EVs can be taken from HP and put into Special Attack to give her some extra power in her attacks.</p>

    [SET]

    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power Fire
    move 3: Surf / Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Trick
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [Set Comments]

    <p>Choice Specs Latias, while not as powerful as Latios, still works very well as a pivot, coming on neutral or resisted attacks easily thanks to her massive base 130 Special Defense, and firing off a powerful Draco Meteor, maintaining momentum. She can easily OHKO or 2HKO many threats with Draco Meteor or a coverage move coming off her base 110 Special Attack stat. However, Dragon Pulse is there if you need to stay in for more than one turn, doing consistent, heavy damage. Surf works in tandem with Latias's STAB Dragon-type moves, providing excellent neutral coverage by hitting most Steel-types hard. Finally, in the last moveslot, Trick allows Latias to neuter a troublesome special wall or setup sweeper as an emergency plan.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>The EVs listed are, again, fairly self-explanatory. Maximum investment in Special Attack allows Latias to hit as hard as possible, and is boosted even further by Choice Specs, while maximum Speed allows Latias to hit as fast as possible as well. Regarding moves, however, there are some alternatives to those listed. Hidden Power Fire can be used over Dragon Pulse or Surf, to provide further coverage, hitting several important Steel-types who would normally switch in on Latias's attacks with ease, namely Ferrothorn. One must keep in mind, however, that she will not be able to outspeed other Pokemon with base 110 Speed since she will have an imperfect Speed IV. Thunderbolt is also an option over Dragon Pulse, but it doesn't provide any additional coverage that Latias needs over Surf. If you do not feel the need to carry Trick, Psyshock is a good alternative, hitting many special walls very hard. However, one of its main targets, Chansey, is not 2HKOed, limiting its usefulness.</p>

    <p>In terms of teammates, Latias likes Pokemon that can easily take out powerful users of Pursuit, such as Tyranitar and Scizor. Conkledurr is a nice example, taking out several key users of the move with STAB Fighting-type moves, often 2HKOing, if not OHKOing. Steel-types are another nuisance to Latias, and are fairly easily handled by Fighting-type Pokemon. However, they also can be taken out easily by Magnezone, since they cannot escape without Shed Shell and will easily be KOed by Thunderbolt or Hidden Power Fire.</p>

    [Set]

    name: Support
    move 1: Dragon Pulse
    move 2: Recover / Wish
    move 3: Roar
    move 4: Reflect / Protect
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [Set Comments]

    <p>While Latias's other sets are very offensive in nature, Latias can use her natural bulk to support her team extremely well, while managing most of the time not to be setup bait. Dragon Pulse is a solid attack coming off of Latias's base 110 Special Attack, while Recover is an excellent move to keep Latias up, increasing her survivability by leaps and bounds. Roar is a great move to stop setup sweepers from boosting on Latias, namely Reuniclus, who runs over Latias otherwise. Reflect is used in the final moveslot not just to support the team against physical attacks, but to stop Latias from being easy prey for hard-hitting physical attackers such as Landorus. Leftovers is a great item for this Latias set, allowing her to be unaffected by sandstorm and hail, while giving her extra recovery outside of said weather conditions.</p>

    <p>The EVs on this set fit Latias's role as a supporter quite well. Maximum investment in HP gives Latias a lot of bulk, allowing her to take hits much better than otherwise. Maximum Speed investment and a Timid nature allows her to support her team as fast as possible, getting in a Recover or some other move in before other Pokemon can attack, which can be a lifesaver. The remaining 4 EVs are put in Defense as a small additional buffer.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>Wish and Protect can be used over Recover and Reflect to form a fairly decent healing combo, though Latias prefers the automatic healing from Recover, while at the same time there are other Pokemon that do a better of job of passing Wish, namely Blissey and Chansey. Light Screen can also be use in conjunction with Reflect, though her brother, Latios, generally performs this strategy better thanks to his access to Memento; Latias will also have a hard time fitting Light Screen on this set. If one thinks Latias needs more offense than Dragon Pulse gives, Surf or Hidden Power Fire can be used over one of her other moves.</p>

    <p>As Tyranitar and Scizor are massive pains for Latias, Fighting- and Fire-types are wonderful partners. Infernape is an amazing partner to Latias, taking out both threats with its STAB attacks, as well as causing destruction to other Pokemon that are weak to it. The two also form a nice offensive core as well, as they cover each other's weaknesses. Latias can also dispatch Infernape's counters fairly easily, a boon for both parties.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Latias is capable of running a dual screener set with Wish and Protect, allowing her to enter and leave the field repeatedly. However, Latios largely outclasses her in this role with his access to Memento. If one uses Latias on a Drizzle team, Thunder is an option, hitting harder than several of her other attacks on various targets, but it isn't really recommended due to its shaky accuracy outside of rain. Modest nature can be run over Timid on the Choice Specs set, though key threats with base 108 Speed, specifically Infernape and Terakion, will outspeed Latias. On the Calm Mind set, Reflect is an option to mitigate the damage taken from physical attacks, though again, it is not recommended.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Strong Pursuit users can usually deal with Latias effectively, especially Tyranitar and Scizor, who can play mind games with Latias since their STAB attacks do massive damage anyways. Users of Sucker Punch can also be a pain for offensive Latias, however rare they might be. Faster Pokemon with U-turn are also problematic for Latias, seeing as it hits her for super effective damage and she can't do anything back. Ferrothorn is also a solid counter to any Latias without Hidden Power Fire, as it can cripple Latias with Leech Seed or Thunder Wave, set up Spikes or Stealth Rock, or just hit Latias hard with Gyro Ball.</p>
  2. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    maybe mention substitue in the calm mind set with refresh, blocks status and more (ferros leech seed) and stays for a longer time

    edit: i know you just took this from chazan, but you probably should remove the blaze reference in the counters section
  3. Snunch

    Snunch
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    Just some suggestions:

    I dont think reflect deserves a slash on the CM set, as Latias will still lose to Scizor, Tyranitar, and Ferrothorn. The slash order is kind of subjective but I think the order should go roar / hp fire / refresh. Substitute and reflect in AC.

    Support set probably needs wish in order to avoid being directly outclassed by the CM set, as the CM set plays like a support set anyway. Wish and protect should be slashed on the second and fourth slot respectively.

    Specs set needs more slashes to reflect that a bunch of different combinations are possible. The only move that should be added is hp fire, but draco meteor should be the only move without a slash next to it.
  4. Eo Ut Mortus

    Eo Ut Mortus Elodin Smells
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    I agree that Substitute needs a mention. It allows Latias to beat soft checks such as Ferrothorn and Jirachi (I know its Substitutes can withstand Iron Head/Power Whip, but I'll have to double check if a specific EV spread is needed). Reflect should be dropped as a slash and mentioned in AC. I think I would go HP Fire / Roar / Substitute, with Refresh in AC.

    Choice Specs should probably be Draco Meteor / Surf and then all the slashed moves.
  5. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    Ok, implementing Eo's changes, as I already implemented Snunch's.
  6. Delta 2777

    Delta 2777 Machampion
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    Good work!

    QC Approved (1/3)
  7. Seven Deadly Sins

    Seven Deadly Sins ~hallelujah~
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    Works for me.

    QC APPROVED (2/3)
  8. Iconic

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    [​IMG]

    QC Approved 3/3
  9. NatGeo

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    Aight, will have this bad girl straightened out by Monday.
  10. Paradoxus

    Paradoxus

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    this may be kind of stupid but a specially defensive latias with soul dew and mist ball (which has a %50 percent chance to lower the opponent's special attack by 1 level) is viable? it may be outclassed by chansey and blissey in the walling department, but it has amazing offensive prowess compared to the aforementioned pokemon.
  11. zdrup15

    zdrup15
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    You can't get Soul Dew in gen 5
  12. elDino

    elDino Deal With It.
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    Have you tried a scarf set? I works well as a revenge killer with more bulk than Latios. It can take out the genies, Garchomp (so long as you don't miss) along with other stuff. Just be careful to scout for Pursuit users
  13. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    While I can see where you are coming from on that, it doesnt exactly work, as Latias kinda outclasses it in that regard. Choice Scarf Latias doesn't necessarily carry the power it needs.

    However, Choice Specs is not outclassed by Latios, though, as it functions differently than Latios.
  14. V0x

    V0x meow or something
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    In regards to the first set and the description of Roar as an option, would it be more helpful to explicitly say something like the side-along set-up->phaze? I do recall one of the original reasons to run Roar was to set up with CM Reuniclus and then phaze it out, giving you an OMFGSWEEP. Such a strategy might not be apparent to newer players (the side-along set up->phaze strategy in general, I mean), so actually stating this as one of the strategies could be more helpful than just saying "for phazing the opponent and racking up entry hazard damage."
  15. NatGeo

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    Seems reasonable, implemented it in.
  16. NatGeo

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    Writeup is done.
  17. Calm Pokemaster

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    [Overview]

    <p>Traditionally, female figures are not as offensive as their male counterparts, and Latias is no exception to this rule. While she and her brother, Latios, share the title of fastest Dragon-type in OU, at havingan almost supersonic base 110 Speed, Latios is generally chosen more for his mighty base 130 Special Attack, as a Draco Meteor or super effective attack from it will 2HKO most threats more often than not; Latias is outclassed in this role.</p>
    (remove space)
    <p>However, Latias is still a literal Artemis in today's metagame, having a substantial base 110 base Special Attack. At the same time, while Latios has a 130 Special Attack stat, Latias boasts an enormous base 130 Special Defense, allowing to her take much more than Latios could,. This gives Latias a niche as a nice pivot, coming in and doing as she can come in and do one of two things: fire off a Draco Meteor which, though weaker than her brother's, is still very powerful, or set up with Calm Mind, boosting her Special Defense to untouchable levels and making her an offensive juggernaut. She is aided in her offensive endeavors by one key addition in this generation: Psyshock, which allows her to successfully take on Blissey, the bane of almost all other special attackers. Overall, Latias is just as good as her brother, and ignoring her when building a team would be a bad decision.</p>
    (remove space)
    [Set]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Substitute / Roar
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
    (remove space)
    [Set Comments]

    <p>While Latios generally prefers hitting straight off the bat, Latias functions well as a defensive pivot, coming in on resisted or neutral attacks and taking little damage thanks to her huge base 130 Special Defense. From there, she can set up with Calm Mind, which allows her to hit like a truck after two or three boosts while being untouchable by special attacks. Recover further enhances her durability, restoring half of her health in a single turn. Leftovers is also a nice boost, giving her additional recovery while negating damage from sandstorm and hail. In terms of attacking, Dragon Pulse is about as good as it gets, providing solid power before boosting while hitting incredibly hard after Latias sets up with Calm Mind. Hidden Power Fire hits troublesome Steel-types, namely Ferrothorn and Jirachi, who otherwise either set up on her or cripple her Latias with status or physical attacks.</p>


    [Additional Comments]

    <p>There are a few notable options that could be used over Hidden Power Fire in the final moveslot. The two main options listed besides it, Substitute and Roar, each have their own function. Substitute is a great move for scouting, allowing Latias to sacrifice possibly a fraction of the HP she would take from other, possibly super effective, attacks safely take an attack which might KO her otherwise. Roar is also an interesting option for phazing the opponent and racking up entry hazard damage, while stopping setup sweepers as well. Aside from those options already listed, Refresh is a neat option that allows Latias to set up without worrying about status, while Reflect allows Latias to take much less damage from physical attacks than she normally would.</p>

    <p>The given EV spread is fairly straight forward; as this set capitalizes on Latias's defenses, she has maximum HP EVs so as to increase her overall bulkiness. However, maximum Speed EVs make Latias as fast as possible, which can be a big help after several Calm Minds, when most defensive buffs won't exactly be necessary. However, if one feels they can forgo Latias's Speed, an alternative spread of 252 HP / 252 Def / 4 Spe may be used to give her as much of a defensive buff as you will ever get. On that note, if one feels Latias needs more power, some EVs can be taken from HP and put into Special Attack to give her some extra power in her attacks.</p>
    (remove space)
    [SET]

    name: Choice Specs
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power Fire
    move 3: Surf / Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Trick
    item: Choice Specs
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [Set Comments]

    <p>Choice Specs Latias, while not as powerful as Latios, still works very well as a pivot, coming on neutral or resisted attacks easily thanks to her massive base 130 Special Defense, and firing off a powerful Draco Meteor, keeping maintaining momentum. It can easily OHKO or 2HKO many threats off of its 110 Special Attack stat with the appropriate move, namely Draco Meteor. However, Dragon Pulse is there if you need to stay in for more than one turn, doing consistent, heavy damage. Surf works in tandem with Latias's STAB Dragon-type moves, providing excellent neutral coverage by hitting most Steel-types hard. Finally, in the last moveslot, Trick is used to provide Latias with an emergency plan when switching in against powerful special walls, by switching her Choice Specs onto the opposing wall, effectively neutering them as she can effectively neuter them by giving them her Choice item.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>The EVs listed are, again, fairly self-explanatory. Maximum Special Attack investment in Special Attack allows Latias to hit as hard as possible, and is boosted even further with by Choice Specs, while maximum Speed allows Latias to hit as fast as possible as well. Regarding the moves, however, there are some alternatives to those listed. Hidden Power Fire can be used over Dragon Pulse or Surf, to provide further coverage, hitting several important Steel-types who would normally switch on Latias's attacks with ease, namely Ferrothorn. One must keep in mind, however, that you will not be able to outspeed other Pokemon with base 110 Speed since you will have to use an imperfect Speed IV. Thunderbolt is also an option over Dragon Pulse, but it doesn't provide any additional coverage that Latias needs over Surf. If you do not feel the need to carry Trick, Psyshock is a good alternative over it, hitting many special walls very hard on their Defense as opposed to Special Defense. However, one of its main targets, Chansey, is not 2HKOed by Psyshock, limiting its usefullness.</p>
    (remove space)
    <p>In terms of teammates, Latias likes Pokemon that can easily take out powerful users of Pursuit, such as Tyranitar and Scizor. Conkledurr is a nice example, taking out several key users of the move with STAB Fighting-type moves, often 2HKOing, if not OHKOing several key threats to Latias. Steel-types are another nuisance to Latias, and are fairly easily handled by Fighting-type Pokemon. However, they also can literally be taken out on a whim thanks to Magnezone, since they cannot escape from it unless holding an item that allows them to, while Magnezone can dispatch them easily with Hidden Power Fire or a STAB Thunderbolt.</p>

    [Set]

    name: Support
    move 1: Dragon Pulse
    move 2: Recover / Wish
    move 3: Roar
    move 4: Reflect / Protect
    item: Leftovers
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe

    [Set Comments]

    <p>While Latias's other sets are very offensive in nature, Latias can use her natural bulk to support her team extremely well, while managing most of the time not to be bait for attackers, unlike some other Pokemon. Dragon Pulse is a solid attack coming off of Latias's base 110 Special Attack, while Recover is an excellent move to keep Latias up, and increasing her survivability by leaps and bounds. Roar is a great move to stop setup sweepers from boosting on Latias, namely Reuniclus, who runs over Latias otherwise. Reflect is used in the final moveslot not just to support the team against physical attacks, but to stop Latias from being easy prey for hard-hitting physical attackers such as Landorus, keeping them at bay. Leftovers is a great item for this Latias set, allowing her to be unaffected by sandstorm and hail, while giving her extra recovery outside of said weather conditions.</p>

    <p>The EVs on this set fit Latias's role as a supporter quite well. Maximum investment in HP EVs gives Latias a lot of bulk, allowing her to take hits much better than otherwise. Maximum Speed alows her to support her team as fast as possible, getting in a Recover or some other move in before other Pokemon can get to her attack, which can be a lifesaver. The remaining 4 EVs are put in Defense as a small additional buffer. A Timid nature is used to make Latias as fast as possible thanks to maximum investment in Speed, while Leftovers allows Latias to be unaffected by sandstorm or hail and gives a small form of consistent recovery outside of it.</p>

    [Additional Comments]

    <p>Wish and Protect can be used over Recover and Reflect, respectively, to form a fairly decent healing combo, though Latias prefers the automatic healing from Recover, while at the same time there are other Pokemon that do a better of job of passing Wish, namely Blissey and Chansey. Light Screen can also be used in conjunction with Reflect, though her brother, Latios, generally performs this stategy better thanks to access to Memento, and Latias will have a hard time fitting Light Screen on this set. If one thinks Latias needs more offense than what Dragon Pulse gives, Surf or Hidden Power Fire can be used over one of her other moves.</p>

    <p>As Tyranitar and Scizor are massive pains for Latias, Fighting- and Fire-types are wonderful partners. Infernape is an amazing partner to Latias, taking out both threats with its STAB attacks, as well as causing destruction to other Pokemon that are weak to it as well. The two also form a nice offensive core as well, as they resist each other's weaknesses. Latias can also dispatch of Infernape's counters fairly easily, a boon for both parties.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Latias is capable of being a Dual Screener running a dual screen set with Wish and Protect, allowing her to enter and leave the field repeatedly. However, Latios largely outclasses it her in this role with his access to Memento. If one uses Latias on a Drizzle team, Thunder is an option, hitting harder than several of her other attacks on various targets, but it isn't really recommended due to its shaky accuracy outside of rain. Modest nature can be run over Timid on the Choice Specs set, though key threats with base 108 Speed, specifically Infernape and Terakion, will then outspeed Latias. On Calm Mind Latias the Calm Mind set, Reflect is an option to mitigate the damage taken from physical attacks, though again, it is not recommended.

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Strong Pursuit users can usually force out Latias with ease, especially Tyranitar and Scizor, who can play mind games with Latias since their STAB attacks do massive damage anyways. Users of Sucker Punch can also be a pain for offensive Latias as well, however rare they might be. Faster Pokemon with U-turn also are a pain for Latias are also problematic, seeing as U-turn hits her for super effective damage as it is while she can't do anything back to them if they are faster by natural means or through the use of a Choice Scarf. Choice Scarf Garchomp, while lacking U-turn, is an excellent counter to most Latias variants apart from Choice Specs Latias, as while Outrage will always OHKO Latias unless Reflect is up, while Dragon Pulse cannot OHKO Garchomp without any investment in Special Attack. Ferrothorn is also a solid counter to any Latias without Hidden Power Fire, as it can cripple Latias with Leech Seed or Thunder Wave, set up Spikes or Stealth Rock, or just hit Latias hard with Gyro Ball.</p>


    [Dream World]


    <p>Latias does not get a Dream World ability.</p> (If the Pokemon doesn't get a Dream World ability, do not have a Dream World section. Also remove all the excessive spaces.)



    [​IMG]

    GP 1 / 2
  18. NatGeo

    NatGeo sun's coming up
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    Implemented, waiting for final GP check.
  19. lmitchell0012

    lmitchell0012 Banned deucer.

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    Even though dragon pulse/draco meteor, HP fire, and surf are her best options for coverage, I think you should mention her other attacks in the analysis as well. Grass knot is an option if bulky waters are an issue and if gyarados is a problem she also has thunderbolt. Additionally, if you like to be a little riskier, she also gets solarbeam and thunder if you're using her on weather teams.

    You could also make a dual screen set for her as she does get reflect and light screen.
  20. NatGeo

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    Thunderbolt > Grass Knot (Thunderbolt is also mentioned in the AC / OO, along with THunder and dual screener.)

    Latias can't really use Grass-type attacks, it needs the coverage.
  21. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
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  22. NatGeo

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    This is done.
  23. wekhter

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    Just noticed you have two periods at the end of the 2nd "Set Comments" paragraph for the Support set and you're missing a </p> tag at the end of other options.
  24. NatGeo

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  25. giggity69

    giggity69

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    Sep 15, 2009
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    ScarfChomp is still an excellent check to specs latias. I am assuming you meant scarf latias?

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