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Latias Discussion: The Underrated Eon

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Gary2346, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
    Messages:
    1,380
    [​IMG]LATIAS DISCUSSION: THE UNDERRATED EON[​IMG]
    *Approved by ginganinja*
    [​IMG]

    | 17 | Latios | 73208 | 9.454% | 57284 | 9.153% |

    | 46 | Latias | 37620 | 4.858% | 29448 | 4.705% |


    First off, look at this amazing difference in usage between Latios and Latias in the recent OU stats! Latios is used almost three times as much as Latias, making her one of the lower used OU Pokemon, next to Dugtrio and Celebi. This shows that offence is definitely chosen over defense in this current meta, which is a shame because it leaves Latias out of the limelight. Anyways, on with the thread!

    After looking through quite a few pages in the OU thread, I have yet so see a Latias discussion in a very long time. I thought that I might as well put forth some effort into creating a discussion for the little forgotten Legendary, due to the lack of discussion we've had about Latias since the introduction of new dangerous threats such as Genesect, Garchomp, and Kyurem-B. It's time to talk about how she's holding up in the current meta. What kind of sets are the most viable? What specific niche does she have in OU, and what Pokemon has the best synergy with her? These should hopefully all be answered after some discussion. I'm excited to see how this is going to turn out. First let's take a look at her stats:​

    STATS

    HP: 80
    Attack: 80
    Defense: 90
    Spec Attack: 110
    Spec Defense:
    130
    Speed: 110


    Those are some pretty decent stats for an OU Pokemon. As you can see she excels in being specially bulky and having very nice speed. She can out speed all of the non scarfed Dragons in the entire OU meta game, bar herself and Latios. That makes her one of the most dangerous threats to watch out for if your into the slower Dragons, because she can easily come in and revenge kill them. Other important threats that she can out speed and potentially OHKO are; Terrakion, Keldeo, Virizion, all the therians and genies EXCEPT Tornadus-T. There are more, but those are a few of the most notable. Her stat that is worth most mentioning is her Special Defense. Latias and Latios share basically the same stats, with their defensive and offensive stats flipped, Latias having 130 SpD and 90 Def while Latios has 90 Atk and 130 SpA. This gives both of them completely different niches, both working better in one department then the other. With Latias' stellar Special Def, she is able to wall a ton of attacks coming from the special side, and works great against weather teams due to her tanking abilities. Her Special Attack is also above average, and with the combination of her bulk, she can really cause a lot of offensive and defensive pressure.

    NOTABLE ATTRIBUTES

    Type: [​IMG][​IMG]

    Her typing sports her 5 weaknesses and 6 resistances. Not too bad for typing in OU. Her Dragon typing is a godsend because it gives her almost all of her resistances, all of them also being very common types such as Water and Fire types. This would make her work great on non weather teams in order to sponge Sun and Rain boosted attacks that are ever so common in the current meta game. Her Psychic typing is what causes her some problems defensively. Although Dark and Ghost types aren't rare, they're not the source of the problem. The problem is Bug types. Not necessarily Bug types in general, but the move U-Turn, which is probably one of the most commonly used attacks in the game, can really leave Latias a perfect target for scouters. The biggest two are Genesect and Scizor. Both of these annoyances depend on U-Turn for scouting and racking up damage, and combined with STAB and Download or Choice Band, non defensive Latias variants are screwed. However, all is not bad for Latias type wise. Like mentioned earlier, her Dragon typing allows her to wall a majority of the specially offensive meta game quite well, and with access to Recover, she can sponge and restore back damage.

    Offensively, her typing is awesome. Dragon is arguably the best offensive typing in the game, only being resisted by Steel types. This means that once Ferrothorn or Forretress are out of the picture, Latias can come in and clean up with one of her signature STAB Dragon moves. Psychic is also quite a useful typing to have with the plethora of dangerous Fighting types like Terrakion and Conkeldurr running around. It's also only resisted by Steel and Psychic, and Dark which is immune to it, however Dark is not relatively common in OU. It also hits Poison types, which although not nearly as common as Fighting types, is useful for Tentacruel, Gengar, and Venusaur.

    Ability: Levitate: "This Pokemon will not receive any damage from Ground-type moves. The Pokemon will also not be affected by Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and can switch out of Arena Trap."

    Levitate is probably one of the best abilities in the game for a more defensive Pokemon. Having an immunity to Earthquake and Earth Power, both common powerful Ground moves, not being able to be trapped by Dugtrio and an immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes helps Latias shine offensively and defensively, making her much harder to take down. Having a team member that can switch into Earthquake or Earth Power and not take any damage is quite useful, especially with the sheer amount of Earthquake users and Landorus who spams Earth Power like there's no tomorrow.

    MOVE LISTS
    Notable moves in Bold
    Leveling Up (open)

    Start Psywave
    5 Wish
    10 Helping Hand
    15 Safeguard
    20 DragonBreath
    25 Water Sport
    30 Refresh
    35 Mist Ball
    40 Zen Headbutt
    45 Recover
    50 Psycho Shift
    55 Charm
    60 Psychic
    65 Heal Pulse
    70 Reflect Type
    75 Guard Split
    80 Dragon Pulse
    85 Healing Wish


    TM/HM (open)
    TM01 Hone Claws
    TM02 Dragon Claw
    TM03 Psyshock
    TM04 Calm Mind
    TM05 Roar
    TM06 Toxic
    TM10 Hidden Power
    TM11 Sunny Day
    TM13 Ice Beam
    TM15 Hyper Beam
    TM16 Light Screen
    TM17 Protect
    TM18 Rain Dance
    TM19 Telekinesis
    TM20 Safeguard
    TM21 Frustration
    TM22 SolarBeam
    TM24 Thunderbolt
    TM25 Thunder

    TM26 Earthquake
    TM27 Return
    TM29 Psychic
    TM30 Shadow Ball
    TM32 Double Team
    TM33 Reflect
    TM37 Sandstorm
    TM40 Aerial Ace
    TM42 Facade
    TM44 Rest
    TM45 Attract
    TM48 Round
    TM53 Energy Ball
    TM57 Charge Beam
    TM65 Shadow Claw
    TM67 Retaliate
    TM68 Giga Impact
    TM70 Flash
    TM73 Thunder Wave
    TM77 Psych Up
    TM78 Bulldoze
    TM85 Dream Eater
    TM86 Grass Knot
    TM87 Swagger
    TM90 Substitute
    HM01 Cut
    HM02 Fly
    HM03 Surf
    HM05 Waterfall
    HM06 Dive


    Tutor (open)
    Covet
    Draco Meteor
    Dragon Pulse

    Helping Hand
    Icy Wind
    Last Resort
    Magic Coat
    Magic Room
    Outrage
    Role Play
    Roost
    Sleep Talk
    Snore
    Tailwind
    Trick
    Zen Headbutt


    As you can see, Latias has a great mix of offensive and defensive moves to choose from, however she is definitely geared more towards defense. Finally with all that said, we can start with the move sets! First off, all of the move sets listed I have all tested and found decent to great success with. Although some may seem slightly less viable then others, listing them is necessary to fully determine her best niche. You may recommend more sets down below, because I know for a fact that there are more out there. Also, if you think that a set should have an EV or move tweak then just go right ahead and recommend it, and I'll get to testing it.

    VIABLE MOVE SETS

    Variant: Bulky Calm Mind

    Latias @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Psyshock/Psychic/Hidden Power Fire/Roar
    - Recover/Refresh

    Pretty much the best Latias set in my opinion, and being so widely used, probably should be considered her staple set. With Latias having slightly mediocre Special Attack when all of her EV investment goes into her bulk, a Calm Mind boost is greatly needed so she can hit something hard. With Max HP and a few Calm Mind boosts, she's very hard to take down, and she hits like a truck as well. Being fast and bulky goes a long way in OU, and once she sets up she is almost impossible to take down without a Physical Choice scarfer or a Steel Type. Even then it's still quite difficult. Speaking of setting up, Latias has no problem setting up with the combination of bulk and access to Recover to help her heal back damage. Dragon Pulse is a powerful STAB move that is great for cleaning up and sweeping when no more Steel types or Special walls are around. Her third move set depends on what your team needs. Psyshock helps her sweep earlier on in the battle when Blissey and Chansey are still around. Psychic in my opinion is better all around for a more powerful STAB and can OHKO Bulk Up Conkeldurr, while Psyshock can't depending on the amount of Bulk Ups, however Dragon Pulse can deal with Conkeldurr pretty well anyway. Hidden Power Fire hits Ferrothorn and Forretress who normally wall this set, but I don't recommend it unless you lack something to take out Steel types effectively. Roar is to prevent Latias from being set up on. Refresh can be used over Recover to heal status, but Recover is preferred for longevity. This set is best used mid-late game.

    Variant: Offensive Calm Mind

    Latias @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Psyshock/Psychic
    - Hidden Power Fire

    Pretty much the same as the bulky variant, except with the ability to use 3 moves instead of two. Unlike the Bulky variant, this Latias can come in almost any length of the match, as long as it has a chance to set up. With the combination of Dragon Pulse, Psyshock, and HP Fire, nothing can really effectively wall this set. Substitute is an alternative to Hidden Power Fire to allow it to set up more and become immune to priority for a turn and or status, however it cannot be used effectively when Steel types are still alive, limiting this sets sweeping capabilities. However, don't let that steer you away, because Sub Calm Mind is definitely an underrated move set.

    Variant: Bulky Sub Calm Mind (Recommended by many)

    Latias @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Substitute
    - Recover

    After getting many requests to put this in the OP, I tested this set and boy oh boy is it good. Substitute protects Latias from any kind of status, and can only effectively be taken down by physical attacks once she has a few Calm Minds up. This set is very similar if not the same as the bulky CM set, except makes Latias so dangerous, that she's almost impossible to stop from sweeping once she gets up 1-2 CM. She only needs Dragon Pulse to sweep once all of the Steel types are gone, and at +6 however, even Skarmory can't take a Dragon Pulse very well either. Recover is so she can set up countless Substitutes without a problem, combined that with Leftovers and she has no problem Sub stalling out something with her bulk and being very fast. This set is highly recommended to use on an offensive team, because she finds it very easy to come in and set up for a sweep. As many have already said, this is probably her best set at the moment.

    Variant: Wish Support

    Latias @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Wish
    - Roar
    - Protect

    Latias can effectively pass 182 HP wishes, perfect for restoring the health of frail sweepers and herself. There really isn't too much to say about this set because it's self explanatory. Dragon Pulse is for dealing damage to weakened mons and frail sweepers. Roar is to phase out any sweeper who may try to set up on her, and also racks up residual hazard damage. Protect is for scouting out moves and giving her free Wish recovery. Not a huge fan of this set because Jirachi is MUCH better at fulfilling a Wish passer.

    Variant: Sub Para Support

    Latias @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Substitute
    - Thunder Wave
    - Recover/Refresh

    A set that definitely should be a nominee for being one of the most annoying sets to deal with in the entire game. This sets goal is to cripple, Substitute, then spam Dragon Pulse. That simple. The reason it's so annoying is due to Latias being very bulky, and with the combination of Substitute, paralysis, and constant healing, this thing can be an absolute menace to deal with. This set is best used late game to clean up, or early game to cripple as many things as possible. I actually made this set up myself, and I find it quite effective to counter Choice Scarfers such as Terrakion.

    Variant: Life Orb Tank

    Latias @ Life Orb
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 152 HP / 176 SpA / 180 Spd
    Modest Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Recover
    - Surf/Psychic/Psyshock/Dragon Pulse
    - Hidden Power Fire

    Probably one of the least used sets, but it's actually quite good. Although Latios pulls off a much better Life Orb set offensively, Latias can use her defenses to her advantage and deal some hard hits in the process. This set functions as a great revenge killer to weakened foes, and is actually one hell of a late game cleaner, probably the best out of all her sets. Draco Meteor deals a very nice chunk to a majority of the unresistant portion of the meta game. Great for dealing with defensive walls and dealing that final blow to really bulky walls like Jellicent and Rotom-W. Recover should ALWAYS be used because with all that Life Orb recoil, she needs that recovery. Surf demolishes Heatran who completely walls the hell out of this set, and under the rain it can do a number to anything. Psychic and Psyshock are great moves to use if you lack any Conkeldurr or Terrakion checks, but Surf is primarily the better option for coverage Hidden Power Fire fries Steel types like Scizor and Ferrothorn, and it's essential for keeping these bastards from setting up on you. I honestly really enjoyed this set due to its surprise factor and lasting a long time. If you lack a decent Psychic or Dragon type revenge killer, this set is pretty awesome.

    Variant: Classic Life Orb (Recommended by yee, written in his own words)

    Latias @ Life Orb
    Nature- Timid
    EVs- 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Draco Meteor
    -Surf
    -Psyshock
    -Recover

    This set is the faster, more powerful alternative to the Life Orb Tank set. It's the easiest way to keep a force on your team while checking Thundurus and Keldeo, along with all of the other <110s. Not running the speed to beat them is a huge mistake because they will 2HKO with any form of boosting item. The reason you'd use it over Latios is the fact that assuming Thund / Keldeo are holding something like Leftovers / Scarf you can play conservatively with Recover, Latios takes well over half meaning they can easily wear it down and punish you if you predict wrong. Latias just takes half and Recovers like nothing happened. There isn't much of a power drop IMO because it still 2hkoes anything bar counters like Jirachi and Ferro with SR which Latios can't grab while keeping much more bulk (Latios takes hits like a girl). On a personal note I think it's cool that it has a higher BST if you take attack out of the equation. HP Fire is fine somewhere whether you have Latias or Latios because SpD Skarm will wall you without it either way.

    Variant: Choice Specs

    Latias @ Choice Specs
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Dragon Pulse/Hidden Power Fire
    - Surf
    - Trick

    Pretty much the same as the Life Orb set except with more power, and being locked into one move. Draco Meteor is for wall breaking, Surf is for Heatran. Dragon Pulse is preferred over Hidden Power Fire to clean up late game or to finish off something, however HP Fire is for Steel types particularly Ferrothorn who wall this set. Trick is to cripple walls and physical attackers. I honestly prefer the Life Orb set over this because Latios makes much better use out of a Specs set. The only reason I would use Latias over Latios for Choice Specs, would be because of the bulk. Other than that I would recommend using the Calm Mind or Life Orb set.

    Variant: Choice Scarf (Recommended by Temp V1 and Dracule Mihawk)

    Latias @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EV: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Hidden Power Fire/Thunder (On Rain Team)
    - Surf/Healing Wish
    - Healing Wish/Psyshock

    This set is one of her most underrated and surprising sets in this OP. Yes, Latios makes a superior Scarfer offensively we all know that, but Latias has the element of surprise up her sleeve, which makes her very dangerous to deal with. This set can revenge kill any scarfed Dragon in the entire OU meta game and speed tie with Latios, making her one hell of a revenge killer. Her move set is to catch a lot of threats off guard, therefore possibly turning the tides of the match in your favor. Draco Meteor kills off any Dragon with no mercy, and hurts anything else that doesn't resist it really badly. Hidden Power Fire is probably the best move she has in her arsenal, because if used right, it can check Scarfed Genesect. Amazing. 90% of the time players aren't going to realize she's scarfed unless you give it away early on in the match, since she's already blazing fast. Just make sure you don't switch her in on a scarfed Pokemon to give it away. Thunder is only to be used on a Rain team, and it's great for checking Tornadus-T and Keldeo. Surf is for Heatran and Volcarona, both who normally wall Latias with a few Quiver Dances up. The last move is once again, your choice. Healing Wish is probably the best move to use because it allows Latias to fully restore a team member that may be needed later on in the match. This move alone has saved me from losing battles and that's why it's recommended to keep Latias alive for the majority of the battle until you don't need her anymore. Psyshock is if you need coverage against Conkeldurr or Venusaur. This set is sheer terror to unsuspecting teams because of it being so unpredictable. This set is not the easiest to use however, because it requires you to make smart decisions in order to make the most of this set. Only use this set if you know what your doing, and having this set on a team with two scarfers works even better, but be careful. Make sure to use Healing Wish when your absolutely sure Latias has fulfilled her duty. Do NOT sacrifice her has death fodder, always use Healing Wish when you know she's going down. Lastly, patience is key. Make sure you have an idea what Pokemon on the opposing has a Choice Scarf or can normally out speed Latias, or you'll give her away. With all that said, this set is awesome. Period.

    Variant: Physically Defensive Calm Mind

    Latias @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spd
    Bold Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Recover
    - Reflect

    Move over Reuniclus, Latias can preform a Defensive Calm Mind set as well. Aren't you starting to realize a pattern here? Latias is definitely one of the best Calm Mind users in OU. This is her last Calm Mind option that I'm going to list. This set focuses on nothing but bulk, and she uses this to her advantage to set up as many Calm Minds as possible to finally begin to sweep. With the combination of Reflect, defensive investment, and a few Calm Minds plus Recover she is probably one of the hardest sweepers to take down. Dragon Pulse is her only attacking move, but that's all she needs once the Steel types are gone. Recover is to keep her alive as long as possible, and heals off any residual damage dealt. Reflect is the icing on the cake, and protects her from almost any kind of physical moves, super effective or not. It also provides decent support to the rest of the team, although not very long due to her not holding Light Clay. This sets pretty good all around, however it lacks speed, which ruins the point of taking over Reuniclus. If I were you, I would stick to Reuniclus.

    Variant: Dual Screener

    Latias @ Light Clay
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Reflect
    - Light Screen
    - Healing Wish/Recover

    This is another supporting set on Latias that is made to help the entire team in general. Her goal is to set up screens, and then proceed to either spam Dragon Pulse or heal up a teammate. This set functions very well on a hyper offensive team because it supports them defensively, and can heal them up if need be. Dragon Pulse is used because of all the types it hits with neutral damage, and it can wear down on anything trying to stay in on Latias. Recover can be used over Healing Wish to improve her screening longevity, however Healing Wish is greatly effective for healing crippled sweepers who may have been burned or severely wounded. I found this set to be very useful on very offensive teams who need that extra support, especially with the popularity of Will-O-Wisp. Definitely one of her better sets that you ought to try out if you lack a supporter. She lasts a very long time as a screener due to her awesome bulk and speed.


    [​IMG]CONCLUSION[​IMG]

    So out of all these sets, which one do you think is the best? Also what niche do you think Latias fits best in? How viable do you feel that Latias is in this current meta? Make sure to post why you chose what you chose, because there needs to be a reasoning behind your choice. If you have any move sets that should be listed on here, feel free to post more, and I'll test them. Make sure YOU tested the sets as well, so don't just post a set you think sounds good. Posting videos or replays of Latias in action is greatly recommended, so feel free to post any videos of your Latias success or failures. I may post the videos on the thread as well. Also correct me on any calculations or mistakes that I may have in this thread. Happy discussing!​
  2. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    2,983
    Bulky calm mind needs recover, refresh is filler with psyshock sub and HP fire.

    Bulky calm mind is in my opinion the best, it sweeps teams and is an amazing wall. If played right, Latias can outright win games, in fact if your opponent lacks tyranitar scizor or jirachi, or some sort of check like Genesect, you can just be outright swept.
  3. Yousername

    Yousername

    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2011
    Messages:
    73
    LO Tank has always been my favorite Latias set. People usually see Latias being a Calm Mind sweeper, but with this set you get instant power and bulk. She's able to switch into and tank common moves such as Hydro Pump, Volt Switch, Flamethrower, etc. However, I would just like to make a suggestion to the set that the OP mentioned, while infinitesimal, should make a difference: I feel that Roost (or Recover, whatever you prefer) should not be slashed, but rather have a definite spot on the moveset. I believe the slash should be Surf/Psychic/Psyshock because LO Tank Latias is meant to tank and strike back hard (hence the name) so the damage received on the switch in, plus LO recoil builds up. Not to mention you will most likely be switching out after Draco and repeating this process. So a spinner like Foretress would make a good partner for Latias. So back to Surf vs Psychic/Psyshock, it really comes down to what your team needs more. Personally, I just generally like Surf more since it usually hits more and also when fighting rain, it becomes even more powerful. The last thing I would like to mention is how vital HP Fire is. It's pretty funny how many Scizor/Ferro I have nailed on the switch in. So, in my opinion, the initial LO set should look like this:

    Latias @ Life Orb
    Ability: Levitate
    EV: 152 HP / 176 SpA / 180 Spe
    Modest Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Hidden Power Fire
    - Roost / Recover
    - Surf / Psychic / Psyshock

    I do realize that without a psychic move, you miss the jump on pokemon like Conkeldurr, but as I said it just comes down to which move would benefit your team more.
  4. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
    May 23, 2012
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    799
    On my opinion Latios is the better choice for pure-attacking sets because it has immediately more power, I've used Latios a lot of time and I can say, the extra power is much more useful over the extra bulk when you need to attack right off the bat instead of setting up.
  5. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
    is a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2011
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    Fixed.

    So do you think he outclasses Latias in the sweeping department as well? I've been swept by CM Latias more then I have Latios.
  6. Dark Fallen Angel

    Dark Fallen Angel FIDDLESTICKS IS ALSO GOOD ON MID!

    Joined:
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    You missed my point. For pure-attacking sets (without Calm Mind) Latios is always the better option because as you don't have a way to augment your offenses, you need all power possible. Latios don't outclasses Latias on the sweeping department, and on my opinion Latias actually has an advantage over Latios on this regard; the extra bulk helps Latias getting more CM boosts from the beginning, and after a few CM boosts, the power difference is, for most part, irrelevant.
  7. Louloudi

    Louloudi

    Joined:
    Sep 5, 2012
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    Personally, I think latios does a LO set better too, as it doesn't mind LO recoil compromising its bulk as much as latias does.
  8. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
    is a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnus

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    825
    latias <3 best stallmon ever

    the classic for me has always been roarCM; fits very well into most stallish teams (bulky teams with an offensive slant often prefer the LO tank sets though). roar means you'll never lose a CM war and lets you bring in a lot of utility in the midgame when you aren't ready to sweep. i've never been a big fan of the second attack; right now i am planning to experiment with thunder wave in the fourth slot (destroys any predicted genesect switches 8D) but good old refresh/substitute work well too. i ran reflectCM in bw1 but i'm not feeling it in this meta; better to use twave in that slot.

    LO tank is very classy for mixing bulk and power; i usually stick to max speed even on that set though (slow latias bleh! i once lost to keldeo because it got a CM before i did and killed me with a freaking shadow ball, cause i was only running enough to outrun garchomp x_x). also yes recover is not optional on that set - you get worn down SO fast with life orb in your hands, and that set is also common on a lot of sand teams so you're losing like a sixth every turn that you attack.

    those two sets (supportive mono-attacking CM, LO tank) are the best sets latias has right now, and imo the only things it should be doing. for specs meteor spammage, the extra power of latios is generally appreciated, and sets like wish/paraspreader have a very small niche in the metagame in general (same goes for other mons that fill those roles, not just latias) so they are tough to fit onto most teams.

    what latias brings to the table is anti-weather utility as a bulky dragon - above all else, this is what makes it useful, as it performs well against both rain and sun. CM sacrifices immediate offensive potential for more supportive moveslots while still retaining late game sweeping ability (due to that superb speed - seriously don't run physically defensive CM latias, that shit only beats tyranitar in theory and it's too damn slow). LO tank is a bulkier attacker that tends to fit easier into a lot of teams, where that support movepool is not as important.



    oh and to those comparing LO latias to LO latios - it's important to realize that the sets being compared are often very very different and play in very different ways. LO latias is typically packing significant HP investment; combined with its superior bulk this means that it is a lot easier to switch in and play defensively. LO latias has greater offensive investment and it gets thrown around in a more hit-n-run fashion, even without the choice lock. both of them should be running 252+ speed imo. in general latios does all-out-offensive choice or CM+3 sets better (latias can set up a bit more easily but honestly at that point you're better off running supportCM); the sets that latias performs better are the ones that emphasize its superior bulk, which makes it a useful weather check
  9. PttP

    PttP Shoutout to the sidewalk for keeping me off the streets
    is a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

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    i always find myself at a crossroad when i use latias. on one hand, i will only use sub calm mind because i am adamant that that is the best set, but on the other hand, i always get fucked because of the fact genesect is so prevalent. latias is a great crutch pokemon - it can switch into a ton of moves and recover off the damage, while preventing set up of some pokemon (such as rp landorus), making the game much easier on the rest of the team. i never use offensive latias because i just feel that latios can take most of the same hits (although taking more damage) and deal more damage with its moves. also the fact that whenever i see a tyranitar on the opposing team, i can never bring in latias is concerning due to the fact that it can do nothing to it. at least latios can scare scarftar or cbtar lacking bulk with dmeteor, latias is just a sitting duck in that situation.

    but overall useful pokemon with the right support
  10. Wizarus

    Wizarus

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    No one expects Specs Latias, and that's it's greatest niche. Pokemon that would normally flee from Latios are less likely to free from Latias. Draco Meteor Politoed as it Toxics or Hippowdon as it roars/SR, effectively neutering them both. Take advantage with something like Sunny Day Heatran. It's not bothered as much by Scald burn that will inevitably happen when you switch into bulky waters since it won't be staying in as long as the other sets, and its still a pretty good check to many threats due to it's natural bulk. Its also the only way you're doing any substantial damage to Ferrothorn in the rain, and you can screw all of those "usual Latias counters" with Trick.

    TBH I don't like Calm Mind Latias right now. So many things can switch in and force it out or outright kill it, even at +1 it's no where near threatening, and 252 SPA /252 SPE is strictly outclassed by Latios.
  11. Bent1ey

    Bent1ey

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    It would really depend of whether or not Latias's bulk can buy her more attacks in straight attacking sets or if she misses key kos by her lower attacking stats in my opinion. The extra bulk can be important even when sweeping directly.
  12. Temp V1

    Temp V1 Movin' at the speed of life and I can't slow down

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    Latias being one of my all time favourite pokes figure I'll throw in my 2c.

    As a lot of people above me have already mentioned, including the OP, Latias can successfully fulfill many roles in the metagame, which is what makes it so great. I'm not a huge fan of comparing one Poke to another in these situations, as I think Latios and Latias really do serve different functions, but there are some comparisons which could be drawn. Latios is obviously the normal choice if one wishes to go the more offensive route, with its Scarf and Specs sets being some of the best Scarf/Specs sets in the current meta, or even its LO and EBelt sets can do quite a lot of damage. Latias can utilize sets similar to this, but as others have said its best sets tend to revolve around Calm Mind.

    Back in BW1 my favourite Latias set by far was a BulkyCM set, which is still probably Latias' trademark set, although the metagame has changed enough to the point where now I feel there are slightly superior sets on many occasions. One set which I didn't see in the OP was the Choice Scarf set. Maybe thats because its shell is so similar to the Specs/LO sets, but I feel that I may as well post it here anyway.

    [​IMG]
    Latias @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Levitate
    EV: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Hidden Power Fire/Healing Wish
    - Surf/Healing Wish
    - Psyshock/Healing Wish

    This set functions in a very similar way to Scarf Latios, although the main appeal that this set has over Latios, once again, is the surprise factor. Currently no one is staying in with Genesect against a Latios, unless they know they outspeed, because HP-Fire is just a little too common for Genesect's liking, and so theres no point taking the gamble of losing a serious threat for naught. Latias on the other hand is very rarely predicted to be running a Scarf, and while the LO and Specs sets are becoming a little more common, I feel this set is just as useful. In the aforementioned scenario against Genesect, your opponent is much more likely going to feel comfortable enough to either U-Turn or RP, only to be met with an HP-Fire to the general face area, and that won't be appreciated. Aside from the surprise factor another thing which this set utilizes well is Healing Wish. For those that don't know what Healing Wish does:

    "The user faints. The Pokemon switched in next has its HP restored to maximum and any status conditions removed. The Pokemon enters the field at the end of the turn Healing Wish is used, so the Pokemon switched in does not have to take an attack. The Pokemon switched in will be healed to maximum before it takes any entry hazard damage."

    This can be insurmountably useful if your sweeper is crippled, and would otherwise decimate your opponents team, think of it as a complete new lease on life. At first when I was running the Scarf set I really didn't want to give up any of my coverage moves, but through shuffling other team members around I had space for Healing Wish so I tried it out, and it can be just so damn nice. One example I'll provide; I was using a Sun team based around a Volcarona sweep, and it had gotten down to 30% HP, rocks on my side of the field, and my spinner gone. Because Heatran didn't do anything to the rest of my team, bar Latias, my opponent decided to play a lot more liberally with it, figuring that Volcarona was as good as dead. Long story short; I KO Heatran > Healing Wish Latias to Volcarona > Volcarona sweeps. This is just one example, and I'm sure many other people have had similar scenarios. Healing Wish functions best on the Scarf set because you need to really get it off before your opponent if possible, avoiding a potential KO on Latias and losing the chance to give another team member a second life.

    Just adding on to what Alk said; Latias is an incredibly useful check to the vast majority of both Sun and Rain teams, and in a meta that is completely dominated by the two, I think that makes it incredibly useful. Any one of the LO Tank, CM or Scarf sets does a great job in dealing with these teams, and that is what makes it so easy to fit Latias onto a team in my opinion, plus its so damn cute :3
  13. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
    is a Smogon IRC SOp Alumnus

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    ^ ah i have seen the scarfed healing wish before somewhere. the healing wish gives it a big edge over latios since the main advantage of the set is surprise factor, and so having broad coverage as most choiced latios desire is of lessened concern

    and as for this:
    my main problem is that the bulk advantage is not all that significant when you don't invest in HP - seeing as bulk is multiplicative (defense*HP), you need the extra health to use it to its full advantage. choice sets will generally not be able to get away with big HP investment, so latias's extra bulk is not all that important... in comparison the extra power, although it might not be huge either, will end up being more important.

    too lazy to do any particular calcs to illustrate the point though, so in practice this broad generalization might not hold

    EDIT: ay 500, completely insignificant number, back to work
  14. yee

    yee
    is a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a Past WCoP Winner

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    Latias @ Life Orb
    Nature- Timid
    EVs- 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    -Draco Meteor
    -Surf
    -Psyshock
    -Roost

    Absolutely don't forget this set. It's the easiest way to keep a force on your team while checking Thundurus and Keldeo, along with all of the other <110s. Not running the speed to beat them is a huge mistake because they will 2HKO with any form of boosting item. The reason you'd use it over Latios is the fact that assuming Thund / Keldeo are holding something like Leftovers / Scarf you can play conservatively with Recover, Latios takes well over half meaning they can easily wear it down and punish you if you predict wrong. Latias just takes half and Recovers like nothing happened. There isn't much of a power drop IMO because it still 2hkoes anything bar counters like Jirachi and Ferro with SR which Latios can't grab while keeping much more bulk (Latios takes hits like a girl). On a personal note I think it's cool that it has a higher BST if you take attack out of the equation. HP Fire is fine somewhere whether you have Latias or Latios because SpD Skarm will wall you without it either way.
  15. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude "The Phone-Post King"
    is an official Team Rateris a Smogon Media Contributor
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    Ok first of all i want to say that Latias is my favourite pokemon in the game. Not onyl that but it is an awesome competitive pokemon as well. In such a weather dominant metagame Latias finds itself in a lot of teams as a rain and sun check. The Life Orb set is getting increasingly popular because of this. However my favovourite Latias set has to be SubCM

    Latias @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Psyshock
    - Substitute

    This set is absolutely great being able to set up a Substitute to prevent Amoongus and Breloom from sporing it as well as letting it not be stopped by Toxic. Behind a Substitute Latias has a very easy time setting up. Dragon Pulse has great solo coverage getting walled only by Steel-Types. For this reason i have found that Choice Specs Magnezone is a great partner for Latias.
  16. Asek

    Asek A heart of stone, a smoking gun
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    IMO if anyone of the eon pokemon was "worse" than the other I would have to say Latios in the current metagame. Pretty much every Latios you see will just be throwing powerful Draco Meteor's straight away with Choice Specs, or the now rare Scarf set which was IMO never a great use of Latios anyway. Both these sets are extremely predictable and it very easy to take advantage of -2 locked in Latios, being set up bait for a fair amount of sweepers as well as an invitation for Spike Stackers such as Ferrothorn and Deoxy-D to come in and get additional layers up against your team, not to mention the g weakness! Latias on the other hand could be running anything, most players assume the standard fast CM set will be the one in play and will switch in their counter to that, but depending on the last move many of the things used to beat it are out of the question. Hidden Power [FIRE] just takes a dump all over ferrothorn and scizor, Sub stops the opponent from revenging or statusing you, while Roar lets you beat Phazers, since AFAIK latias is the fastest common user of it in OU if it carries it. Specs Latias although pretty much outclassed by her brother in this regard, has the element of surprise going for it which can nab a few suprise kills, but considering most pokemon that switch in will be expecting to take on a powerful dragon attacks, the most useful move on the set is IMO trick as it cripples usual safe switch ins to Latias such as Specially Defensive Jirachi.

    Tank Latias is THE Latias set to use right now imo, and I've seen more of it on the ladder, probably due to GMD'd team. There are 2 viable EV spreads, the first being Max SpA/ Max+ Speed which outpaces all non scarf variants of Terrakion as well as HP [FIRE] Latios. Otherwise there is the more effective at what it does IMO spread of 140HP/ 176SpA/ 194Spe+ which outpaces up to non scarf + nature Garchomp, while also offering a decent amount of power and bulk to switch into most special attackers all day. Utilizing Recover + Refresh you can take status attacks for the team all day (although spore remains at large), and can still dish out plenty of damage coming off LO boosted Draco Meteors. Surf handily lures in heatran hoping to wall a CM variant, which can break open the opposition to aid a team mate to sweep.

    Overall, although the genesect weakness is a bummer, Latias remains quite a powerful and potent threat in OU, and if far better than its usage suggests!
  17. Dracule Mihawk

    Dracule Mihawk

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    The tank latias set is quite good, and before it used to catch me off guard. But I've had success with CM and 2 attacks, I use it on one of my sun teams as genesect and dugtrio removes things that stop a latias sweep. But recently I've had quite a successful run with a team with scarf latias in rain. Surf gets a good boost in rain, while draco meteor is just strong. Thunder is quite useful as well for things like keldeo, but the crux of the set is healing wish. It allows a previously damaged sweeper to come back to life and wreak havoc again. It has saved me on numerous occasions, such as my mamoswine being brought back from the brink. People never expect it. The set is listed below. I think it should be added to the OP.

    Show Hide
    Latias (F) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 4 Def / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Draco Meteor
    - Surf
    - Thunder
    - Healing Wish
  18. malomyotismon

    malomyotismon

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    Think about latias is she can be used as a fabulous defensive and offensive pivot for other sweeepers, namely other dragons and I have found her to be immensely successful with other dragons on dragmag or draggene, drilling holes while staying alive more often than latios and because latias is never expected to be as purely offensive as latios the offensive set latios uses works on latias as well, making latias deal out more damage than opponents might expect.

    yee says everything else that I have not mentioned.
  19. Reymedy

    Reymedy The Black Sun.
    is a Tutoris an official Team Rateris a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributor
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    "| 17 | Latios | 73208 | 9.454% | 57284 | 9.153% |

    | 46 | Latias | 37620 | 4.858% | 29448 | 4.705% |

    First off, look at this amazing difference in usage between Latios and Latias in the recent OU stats! Latios is used almost three times as much as Latias, making her one of the lower used OU Pokemon, next to Dugtrio and Celebi. This shows that offence is definitely chosen over defense in this current meta, which is a shame because it leaves Latias out of the limelight. Anyways, on with the thread!"

    I guess you meant "almost two times as much" here, I look stupid to point it out but whatever. Or maybe you're talking about the ranking and not the %.

    In my opinion Latias is on paper better for support/CM/bulky offensive sets.
    It's a great pokemon that just suffers from the likes of Genesect more than Latios because Latios is used as a hit and run pokemon, whereas Latias is supposed to stay on the field longer, hence Latias attracts Genesect (but Scarf Latias can be an insane lure).

    Great thread by the way, pleasant, I learned alot, thank you.
  20. SapphSabre777

    SapphSabre777

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    Latias is definitely underrated. But it is this underrated aspect that can make Latias just as deadly as "her older sibling." People usually see a lot of Latios nowadays, and it is for certain it will sweep. But when a Latias comes out, prepare for anything; because it can fill much more roles than Latios.
  21. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Thanks guys for all the support this thread is getting! It's really nice to see Latias getting a ton of recognition from you guys, and it's nice to know that I'm not the only one that still thinks she's awesome in OU. Keep it up! Also, responding to some feedback:

    Tested and added. Great set, very unpredictable, and catches many by surprise.

    I did mean the ranking, almost two times if your talking about % however.

    Tested and added as a more classic alternative to the Life Orb Tank. Works great, however I still think the Life Orb Tank is superior to this set, because it uses Latias' bulk to her advantage. Still, great set man.
  22. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    Honestly i dont see why someone would use an offensive set of latias (orb, Specs or scarf) when we have latios in ou. It has her nice with calm mind or supporting sets, but since genesect, scizor, and tyranitar are used a lot Latias its just not fitted in this metagame.
  23. FaceFaceFace

    FaceFaceFace

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    Yee's set is great. Latias can come in on so many things with very little investment in defense; something Latios cannot do. Plus with all them frail sweepers hanging around these days, that extra power isn't all that important, and is somewhat patched up if you're running LO + Recover anyway.
  24. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    I see your point, but the reason to use offensive sets on Latias, is purely for being unpredictable and bulky. However, that goes a long way. Out of all her offensive sets, I would use the Life Orb Tank, and the Choice Scarf set.

    That pretty much explains why Life Orb Latias is quite good. Choice Scarf is one of her least used sets, so she can get away with OHKOing Scarfed Genesect with HP Fire and dealing with scarfed Terrakion.
  25. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    I dont see how latias has that surprise factor, once you noticed that it does not have leftovers, you can assume it has the standard moves that Latios normally has, aka Surf, Dmeteor, psyshock and so on. Oh, and for the ones who claim latias to be "bulky", without investiments it only has 90 base defense while latios has 80, and 130 special defense while latios has 110, and you are still using a set with life orb which reduce your staying power quickly.

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