LATIAS DISCUSSION: THE UNDERRATED EON *Approved by ginganinja* | 17 | Latios | 73208 | 9.454% | 57284 | 9.153% | | 46 | Latias | 37620 | 4.858% | 29448 | 4.705% | First off, look at this amazing difference in usage between Latios and Latias in the recent OU stats! Latios is used almost three times as much as Latias, making her one of the lower used OU Pokemon, next to Dugtrio and Celebi. This shows that offence is definitely chosen over defense in this current meta, which is a shame because it leaves Latias out of the limelight. Anyways, on with the thread! After looking through quite a few pages in the OU thread, I have yet so see a Latias discussion in a very long time. I thought that I might as well put forth some effort into creating a discussion for the little forgotten Legendary, due to the lack of discussion we've had about Latias since the introduction of new dangerous threats such as Genesect, Garchomp, and Kyurem-B. It's time to talk about how she's holding up in the current meta. What kind of sets are the most viable? What specific niche does she have in OU, and what Pokemon has the best synergy with her? These should hopefully all be answered after some discussion. I'm excited to see how this is going to turn out. First let's take a look at her stats: STATS HP: 80 Attack: 80 Defense: 90 Spec Attack: 110 Spec Defense: 130 Speed: 110 Those are some pretty decent stats for an OU Pokemon. As you can see she excels in being specially bulky and having very nice speed. She can out speed all of the non scarfed Dragons in the entire OU meta game, bar herself and Latios. That makes her one of the most dangerous threats to watch out for if your into the slower Dragons, because she can easily come in and revenge kill them. Other important threats that she can out speed and potentially OHKO are; Terrakion, Keldeo, Virizion, all the therians and genies EXCEPT Tornadus-T. There are more, but those are a few of the most notable. Her stat that is worth most mentioning is her Special Defense. Latias and Latios share basically the same stats, with their defensive and offensive stats flipped, Latias having 130 SpD and 90 Def while Latios has 90 Atk and 130 SpA. This gives both of them completely different niches, both working better in one department then the other. With Latias' stellar Special Def, she is able to wall a ton of attacks coming from the special side, and works great against weather teams due to her tanking abilities. Her Special Attack is also above average, and with the combination of her bulk, she can really cause a lot of offensive and defensive pressure. NOTABLE ATTRIBUTES Type: Her typing sports her 5 weaknesses and 6 resistances. Not too bad for typing in OU. Her Dragon typing is a godsend because it gives her almost all of her resistances, all of them also being very common types such as Water and Fire types. This would make her work great on non weather teams in order to sponge Sun and Rain boosted attacks that are ever so common in the current meta game. Her Psychic typing is what causes her some problems defensively. Although Dark and Ghost types aren't rare, they're not the source of the problem. The problem is Bug types. Not necessarily Bug types in general, but the move U-Turn, which is probably one of the most commonly used attacks in the game, can really leave Latias a perfect target for scouters. The biggest two are Genesect and Scizor. Both of these annoyances depend on U-Turn for scouting and racking up damage, and combined with STAB and Download or Choice Band, non defensive Latias variants are screwed. However, all is not bad for Latias type wise. Like mentioned earlier, her Dragon typing allows her to wall a majority of the specially offensive meta game quite well, and with access to Recover, she can sponge and restore back damage. Offensively, her typing is awesome. Dragon is arguably the best offensive typing in the game, only being resisted by Steel types. This means that once Ferrothorn or Forretress are out of the picture, Latias can come in and clean up with one of her signature STAB Dragon moves. Psychic is also quite a useful typing to have with the plethora of dangerous Fighting types like Terrakion and Conkeldurr running around. It's also only resisted by Steel and Psychic, and Dark which is immune to it, however Dark is not relatively common in OU. It also hits Poison types, which although not nearly as common as Fighting types, is useful for Tentacruel, Gengar, and Venusaur. Ability: Levitate: "This Pokemon will not receive any damage from Ground-type moves. The Pokemon will also not be affected by Spikes, Toxic Spikes, and can switch out of Arena Trap." Levitate is probably one of the best abilities in the game for a more defensive Pokemon. Having an immunity to Earthquake and Earth Power, both common powerful Ground moves, not being able to be trapped by Dugtrio and an immunity to Spikes and Toxic Spikes helps Latias shine offensively and defensively, making her much harder to take down. Having a team member that can switch into Earthquake or Earth Power and not take any damage is quite useful, especially with the sheer amount of Earthquake users and Landorus who spams Earth Power like there's no tomorrow. MOVE LISTS Notable moves in Bold Leveling Up (Move your mouse to reveal the content) Leveling Up (open) Leveling Up (close) Start Psywave 5 Wish 10 Helping Hand 15 Safeguard 20 DragonBreath 25 Water Sport 30 Refresh 35 Mist Ball 40 Zen Headbutt 45 Recover 50 Psycho Shift 55 Charm 60 Psychic 65 Heal Pulse 70 Reflect Type 75 Guard Split 80 Dragon Pulse 85 Healing Wish TM/HM (Move your mouse to reveal the content) TM/HM (open) TM/HM (close) TM01 Hone Claws TM02 Dragon Claw TM03 Psyshock TM04 Calm Mind TM05 Roar TM06 Toxic TM10 Hidden Power TM11 Sunny Day TM13 Ice Beam TM15 Hyper Beam TM16 Light Screen TM17 Protect TM18 Rain Dance TM19 Telekinesis TM20 Safeguard TM21 Frustration TM22 SolarBeam TM24 Thunderbolt TM25 Thunder TM26 Earthquake TM27 Return TM29 Psychic TM30 Shadow Ball TM32 Double Team TM33 Reflect TM37 Sandstorm TM40 Aerial Ace TM42 Facade TM44 Rest TM45 Attract TM48 Round TM53 Energy Ball TM57 Charge Beam TM65 Shadow Claw TM67 Retaliate TM68 Giga Impact TM70 Flash TM73 Thunder Wave TM77 Psych Up TM78 Bulldoze TM85 Dream Eater TM86 Grass Knot TM87 Swagger TM90 Substitute HM01 Cut HM02 Fly HM03 Surf HM05 Waterfall HM06 Dive Tutor (Move your mouse to reveal the content) Tutor (open) Tutor (close) Covet Draco Meteor Dragon Pulse Helping Hand Icy Wind Last Resort Magic Coat Magic Room Outrage Role Play Roost Sleep Talk Snore Tailwind Trick Zen Headbutt As you can see, Latias has a great mix of offensive and defensive moves to choose from, however she is definitely geared more towards defense. Finally with all that said, we can start with the move sets! First off, all of the move sets listed I have all tested and found decent to great success with. Although some may seem slightly less viable then others, listing them is necessary to fully determine her best niche. You may recommend more sets down below, because I know for a fact that there are more out there. Also, if you think that a set should have an EV or move tweak then just go right ahead and recommend it, and I'll get to testing it. VIABLE MOVE SETS Variant: Bulky Calm Mind Latias @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature - Calm Mind - Dragon Pulse - Psyshock/Psychic/Hidden Power Fire/Roar - Recover/Refresh Pretty much the best Latias set in my opinion, and being so widely used, probably should be considered her staple set. With Latias having slightly mediocre Special Attack when all of her EV investment goes into her bulk, a Calm Mind boost is greatly needed so she can hit something hard. With Max HP and a few Calm Mind boosts, she's very hard to take down, and she hits like a truck as well. Being fast and bulky goes a long way in OU, and once she sets up she is almost impossible to take down without a Physical Choice scarfer or a Steel Type. Even then it's still quite difficult. Speaking of setting up, Latias has no problem setting up with the combination of bulk and access to Recover to help her heal back damage. Dragon Pulse is a powerful STAB move that is great for cleaning up and sweeping when no more Steel types or Special walls are around. Her third move set depends on what your team needs. Psyshock helps her sweep earlier on in the battle when Blissey and Chansey are still around. Psychic in my opinion is better all around for a more powerful STAB and can OHKO Bulk Up Conkeldurr, while Psyshock can't depending on the amount of Bulk Ups, however Dragon Pulse can deal with Conkeldurr pretty well anyway. Hidden Power Fire hits Ferrothorn and Forretress who normally wall this set, but I don't recommend it unless you lack something to take out Steel types effectively. Roar is to prevent Latias from being set up on. Refresh can be used over Recover to heal status, but Recover is preferred for longevity. This set is best used mid-late game. Variant: Offensive Calm Mind Latias @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 4 HP / 252 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature - Calm Mind - Dragon Pulse - Psyshock/Psychic - Hidden Power Fire Pretty much the same as the bulky variant, except with the ability to use 3 moves instead of two. Unlike the Bulky variant, this Latias can come in almost any length of the match, as long as it has a chance to set up. With the combination of Dragon Pulse, Psyshock, and HP Fire, nothing can really effectively wall this set. Substitute is an alternative to Hidden Power Fire to allow it to set up more and become immune to priority for a turn and or status, however it cannot be used effectively when Steel types are still alive, limiting this sets sweeping capabilities. However, don't let that steer you away, because Sub Calm Mind is definitely an underrated move set. Variant: Bulky Sub Calm Mind (Recommended by many) Latias @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 4 SAtk / 252 Spd Timid Nature - Calm Mind - Dragon Pulse - Substitute - Recover After getting many requests to put this in the OP, I tested this set and boy oh boy is it good. Substitute protects Latias from any kind of status, and can only effectively be taken down by physical attacks once she has a few Calm Minds up. This set is very similar if not the same as the bulky CM set, except makes Latias so dangerous, that she's almost impossible to stop from sweeping once she gets up 1-2 CM. She only needs Dragon Pulse to sweep once all of the Steel types are gone, and at +6 however, even Skarmory can't take a Dragon Pulse very well either. Recover is so she can set up countless Substitutes without a problem, combined that with Leftovers and she has no problem Sub stalling out something with her bulk and being very fast. This set is highly recommended to use on an offensive team, because she finds it very easy to come in and set up for a sweep. As many have already said, this is probably her best set at the moment. Variant: Wish Support Latias @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd Timid Nature - Dragon Pulse - Wish - Roar - Protect Latias can effectively pass 182 HP wishes, perfect for restoring the health of frail sweepers and herself. There really isn't too much to say about this set because it's self explanatory. Dragon Pulse is for dealing damage to weakened mons and frail sweepers. Roar is to phase out any sweeper who may try to set up on her, and also racks up residual hazard damage. Protect is for scouting out moves and giving her free Wish recovery. Not a huge fan of this set because Jirachi is MUCH better at fulfilling a Wish passer. Variant: Sub Para Support Latias @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spd Modest Nature - Dragon Pulse - Substitute - Thunder Wave - Recover/Refresh A set that definitely should be a nominee for being one of the most annoying sets to deal with in the entire game. This sets goal is to cripple, Substitute, then spam Dragon Pulse. That simple. The reason it's so annoying is due to Latias being very bulky, and with the combination of Substitute, paralysis, and constant healing, this thing can be an absolute menace to deal with. This set is best used late game to clean up, or early game to cripple as many things as possible. I actually made this set up myself, and I find it quite effective to counter Choice Scarfers such as Terrakion. Variant: Life Orb Tank Latias @ Life Orb Trait: Levitate EVs: 152 HP / 176 SpA / 180 Spd Modest Nature - Draco Meteor - Recover - Surf/Psychic/Psyshock/Dragon Pulse - Hidden Power Fire Probably one of the least used sets, but it's actually quite good. Although Latios pulls off a much better Life Orb set offensively, Latias can use her defenses to her advantage and deal some hard hits in the process. This set functions as a great revenge killer to weakened foes, and is actually one hell of a late game cleaner, probably the best out of all her sets. Draco Meteor deals a very nice chunk to a majority of the unresistant portion of the meta game. Great for dealing with defensive walls and dealing that final blow to really bulky walls like Jellicent and Rotom-W. Recover should ALWAYS be used because with all that Life Orb recoil, she needs that recovery. Surf demolishes Heatran who completely walls the hell out of this set, and under the rain it can do a number to anything. Psychic and Psyshock are great moves to use if you lack any Conkeldurr or Terrakion checks, but Surf is primarily the better option for coverage Hidden Power Fire fries Steel types like Scizor and Ferrothorn, and it's essential for keeping these bastards from setting up on you. I honestly really enjoyed this set due to its surprise factor and lasting a long time. If you lack a decent Psychic or Dragon type revenge killer, this set is pretty awesome. Variant: Classic Life Orb (Recommended by yee, written in his own words) Latias @ Life Orb Nature- Timid EVs- 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe -Draco Meteor -Surf -Psyshock -Recover This set is the faster, more powerful alternative to the Life Orb Tank set. It's the easiest way to keep a force on your team while checking Thundurus and Keldeo, along with all of the other <110s. Not running the speed to beat them is a huge mistake because they will 2HKO with any form of boosting item. The reason you'd use it over Latios is the fact that assuming Thund / Keldeo are holding something like Leftovers / Scarf you can play conservatively with Recover, Latios takes well over half meaning they can easily wear it down and punish you if you predict wrong. Latias just takes half and Recovers like nothing happened. There isn't much of a power drop IMO because it still 2hkoes anything bar counters like Jirachi and Ferro with SR which Latios can't grab while keeping much more bulk (Latios takes hits like a girl). On a personal note I think it's cool that it has a higher BST if you take attack out of the equation. HP Fire is fine somewhere whether you have Latias or Latios because SpD Skarm will wall you without it either way. Variant: Choice Specs Latias @ Choice Specs Trait: Levitate EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spd Timid Nature - Draco Meteor - Dragon Pulse/Hidden Power Fire - Surf - Trick Pretty much the same as the Life Orb set except with more power, and being locked into one move. Draco Meteor is for wall breaking, Surf is for Heatran. Dragon Pulse is preferred over Hidden Power Fire to clean up late game or to finish off something, however HP Fire is for Steel types particularly Ferrothorn who wall this set. Trick is to cripple walls and physical attackers. I honestly prefer the Life Orb set over this because Latios makes much better use out of a Specs set. The only reason I would use Latias over Latios for Choice Specs, would be because of the bulk. Other than that I would recommend using the Calm Mind or Life Orb set. Variant: Choice Scarf (Recommended by Temp V1 and Dracule Mihawk) Latias @ Choice Scarf Ability: Levitate EV: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe Timid Nature - Draco Meteor - Hidden Power Fire/Thunder (On Rain Team) - Surf/Healing Wish - Healing Wish/Psyshock This set is one of her most underrated and surprising sets in this OP. Yes, Latios makes a superior Scarfer offensively we all know that, but Latias has the element of surprise up her sleeve, which makes her very dangerous to deal with. This set can revenge kill any scarfed Dragon in the entire OU meta game and speed tie with Latios, making her one hell of a revenge killer. Her move set is to catch a lot of threats off guard, therefore possibly turning the tides of the match in your favor. Draco Meteor kills off any Dragon with no mercy, and hurts anything else that doesn't resist it really badly. Hidden Power Fire is probably the best move she has in her arsenal, because if used right, it can check Scarfed Genesect. Amazing. 90% of the time players aren't going to realize she's scarfed unless you give it away early on in the match, since she's already blazing fast. Just make sure you don't switch her in on a scarfed Pokemon to give it away. Thunder is only to be used on a Rain team, and it's great for checking Tornadus-T and Keldeo. Surf is for Heatran and Volcarona, both who normally wall Latias with a few Quiver Dances up. The last move is once again, your choice. Healing Wish is probably the best move to use because it allows Latias to fully restore a team member that may be needed later on in the match. This move alone has saved me from losing battles and that's why it's recommended to keep Latias alive for the majority of the battle until you don't need her anymore. Psyshock is if you need coverage against Conkeldurr or Venusaur. This set is sheer terror to unsuspecting teams because of it being so unpredictable. This set is not the easiest to use however, because it requires you to make smart decisions in order to make the most of this set. Only use this set if you know what your doing, and having this set on a team with two scarfers works even better, but be careful. Make sure to use Healing Wish when your absolutely sure Latias has fulfilled her duty. Do NOT sacrifice her has death fodder, always use Healing Wish when you know she's going down. Lastly, patience is key. Make sure you have an idea what Pokemon on the opposing has a Choice Scarf or can normally out speed Latias, or you'll give her away. With all that said, this set is awesome. Period. Variant: Physically Defensive Calm Mind Latias @ Leftovers Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spd Bold Nature - Calm Mind - Dragon Pulse - Recover - Reflect Move over Reuniclus, Latias can preform a Defensive Calm Mind set as well. Aren't you starting to realize a pattern here? Latias is definitely one of the best Calm Mind users in OU. This is her last Calm Mind option that I'm going to list. This set focuses on nothing but bulk, and she uses this to her advantage to set up as many Calm Minds as possible to finally begin to sweep. With the combination of Reflect, defensive investment, and a few Calm Minds plus Recover she is probably one of the hardest sweepers to take down. Dragon Pulse is her only attacking move, but that's all she needs once the Steel types are gone. Recover is to keep her alive as long as possible, and heals off any residual damage dealt. Reflect is the icing on the cake, and protects her from almost any kind of physical moves, super effective or not. It also provides decent support to the rest of the team, although not very long due to her not holding Light Clay. This sets pretty good all around, however it lacks speed, which ruins the point of taking over Reuniclus. If I were you, I would stick to Reuniclus. Variant: Dual Screener Latias @ Light Clay Trait: Levitate EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd Timid Nature - Dragon Pulse - Reflect - Light Screen - Healing Wish/Recover This is another supporting set on Latias that is made to help the entire team in general. Her goal is to set up screens, and then proceed to either spam Dragon Pulse or heal up a teammate. This set functions very well on a hyper offensive team because it supports them defensively, and can heal them up if need be. Dragon Pulse is used because of all the types it hits with neutral damage, and it can wear down on anything trying to stay in on Latias. Recover can be used over Healing Wish to improve her screening longevity, however Healing Wish is greatly effective for healing crippled sweepers who may have been burned or severely wounded. I found this set to be very useful on very offensive teams who need that extra support, especially with the popularity of Will-O-Wisp. Definitely one of her better sets that you ought to try out if you lack a supporter. She lasts a very long time as a screener due to her awesome bulk and speed. CONCLUSION So out of all these sets, which one do you think is the best? Also what niche do you think Latias fits best in? How viable do you feel that Latias is in this current meta? Make sure to post why you chose what you chose, because there needs to be a reasoning behind your choice. If you have any move sets that should be listed on here, feel free to post more, and I'll test them. Make sure YOU tested the sets as well, so don't just post a set you think sounds good. Posting videos or replays of Latias in action is greatly recommended, so feel free to post any videos of your Latias success or failures. I may post the videos on the thread as well. Also correct me on any calculations or mistakes that I may have in this thread. Happy discussing!