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Latias Discussion: The Underrated Eon

Discussion in 'BW OU' started by Gary2346, Nov 6, 2012.

  1. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Even without the Leftovers, how is it still not unpredictable? It has the chance of being 3 sets; Life Orb, Specs, Scarf. There is still a surprise factor. I have tested ALL these sets multiple times, and although I do agree her defensive sets work better in this meta game, they are so common that everyone assumes that's what she is as soon as she comes up on the team preview. Specs I agree is meh, but her Scarf and Bulky Life Orb set are very much viable.
  2. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude Different breed imo
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    agreeing with Neliel Tu Oderschvank Latios has more special attack so it is generally the better specs user and scarf user. While Latias can still use it for a suprise factor it is still stopped by Jirachi can once the choice item has been revealed Latias is way more predictable. However Choice Scarf sets with Healing Wish are great to bring back another teammate in an offensive team.
  3. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    I definitely do not recommend using the Specs set on Latias, but Healing Wish and OHKOing scarfed Genesect who normally comes in on Latias, is always nice. Her Scarf set is more of a surprise revenge killer/team supporter where as Latios is more of a wall breaker. Once Genesect is banned, if it is, Scarfed Latias will primarily be used for Healing Wish.
  4. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Fastest man alive
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    Ah, I must disagree with the fact that Specs Latias is 'outclassed' by Latios. I support its viability heavily, as I have used it a lot and it's been hugely successful for me.

    For one, although they may look mighty similar they are completely different sets and serve completely different purposes. Surprise is just one of the numerous benefits of Specs on Latias. Unlike Latios, however, Specs Latias is NOT supposed to sweep. Rarely should it even be used to revenge kill. In my opinion, Specs is more of an offensive support set. It's aimed to use surprise and Trick to do multiple things. For one, it fucks up its walls real well. As Ferrothorns or other bulky steels and special walls come in to force you out, by Tricking them your Specs, you gain a lot of momentum and advantage. Specs Latias is also a great, fast tank. It has just as much speed as Latios, almost as much power, and a lot more bulk, specially and physically. She is a fast, moderately hard hitting pokemon that targets her walls and counters with Trick and then hits hard or switches to a teammate for momentum. Unlike her CM sets, Specs Latias is more hit-and-run, and has a lot less counters than SubCM due to its independent nature and ability to hit super hard. In this way, she differentiates from Specs Latios, and also from her other LO sets as well. Unlike Latios, Specs Latias targets her walls, cripples them, and then takes advantage of her bulk and moderate power to whittle them down or switch for momentum. Unlike her LO set, this Latias has Trick- which allows her to cripple opponents to support her teammates. Specs Latias isn't a set up pokemon, nor is it a sweeper. It's a support pokemon that can attack and Trick to cripple walls for her teammembers as well as take a few hits and respond with powerful attacks. Her bulk and typing allow her to handle many common threats- such as Ninetales, Politoed, slower Dragons, Fighting types, and much more.

    I know this strays from the analysis a little bit, but I really like Psyshock / Thunder on my Specs Latias. Thunder is a great move in general, and although it's much better in Rain it's still very useful in Sand/non weather (not in sun though) because of its power and the fact that it can paralyze, which helps a lot against unsure switch ins. Psyshock is just a stable STAB in general, though it makes you a bit weak to Tyranitar it does hit fighting types for the OHKO and let you beat CM Keldeo even after it's gotten many boosts. I don't really think Dragon Pulse is that great, since even with Specs it's quite weak, but that's of course up to the rest of the community.

    EDIT just clarifying that this may or may not apply to the scarf set, which is something I've never seen nor heard of and am unsure of its viability
  5. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    yes of course, latias has the surprise factor because it has a lot of viable moves, but the same is for latios. Also, i tested a lot scarf latios and here i will tell you why you will miss the extra power of scarflatios:

    Show Hide

    Latias psyshock against terrakion/keldeo: 319 Atk VS 216 Def and 323 HP (80 Base Power): 258 - 303 (79.87% - 93.8%)
    Latios: 350 Atk VS 216 Def and 323 HP (80 Base Power): 282 - 332 (87.3% - 102.78%)

    simply more chance to ko, after stealth rock latios has 58% of chance to ko, latias 0.

    Latias dmeteor against naive tornadus/thundurus: 319 Atk VS 196 Def and 299 HP (140 Base Power): 246 - 290 (82.27% - 96.98%)
    Latios: 350 Atk VS 196 Def and 299 HP (140 Base Power): 270 - 318 (90.3% - 106.35%)

    Latios has more chance to ko since tornadus-t is normally used with life orb, and with 90% is always koed. Latias cant do that, it risks an hurricane if tornadus resists.

    Latias dmetoer against scarf rotom-w: 319 Atk VS 250 Def and 241 HP (140 Base Power): 193 - 228 (80.08% - 94.6%)
    Latios: 350 Atk VS 250 Def and 241 HP (140 Base Power): 212 - 249 (87.96% - 103.31%)

    Hpump under rain hurts both, latios always kos after stealth rock.

    Latias dmeteor against Landorus: 319 Atk VS 196 Def and 319 HP (140 Base Power): 246 - 290 (77.11% - 90.9%)
    Latios: 350 Atk VS 196 Def and 319 HP (140 Base Power): 270 - 318 (84.63% - 99.68%)

    You just have more change to not be raped by sheer force landorus if you consider the life orb recoil of hp ice.

    Examples of thing that you can kill better with latios
  6. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Fastest man alive
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    I'm sorry, but I was talking about Specs Latias, and if I made it unclear I will edit it in but I did not say Scarf Latias fell under the same belt. I do think Scarf Latias is pretty useless, as if you're going to Trick you might as well use Specs, and if you're using it revenge kill you should use Latios instead, because revenge killers aren't really supposed to need the amount of bulk Latias has.

    Also, upon looking at your calculations for Tornadus, you say your calcs are with Naive Tornadus however your numbers display calcs from non-SpD dropping Tornadus, which is I think less common. For Naive Tornadus, Scarf Latias's DMeteor is always an OHKO as well.
  7. Neliel

    Neliel Sacred Sword

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    I was talking to gary, dont worry.
    Oh and, i meant tornadus-t. Naive tornadus-t has 196 special defense if im not wrong
  8. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    These are all awesome posts and suggestions! So I must ask, do you think Latias' rank should be higher (used more), or do you honestly think that she should stay where she's at?
  9. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming Pursuing My True Self
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    When I used Latias, I ran the standard 252SpA/252SpA offensive spread that Latios typically uses on its LO sets. The extra natural bulk was useful in checking Keldeo (especially Choice Scarf Hydro Pump spamming Keldeo in the rain) taking Hurricanes from Tornadus-t(59.93 - 70.86% VS 68.87 - 81.78%) and was better checking Thundurus-T. I'm not trying to imply that Latias is better, but I want to correct any claims that LO Latias is outclassed by LO Latios. She's basically a different flavoured Latios (and it just so happens I prefer cherry to blue berry jam).
  10. yee

    yee
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    Well for anyone who ranks beating Thundurus-T as anything of a priority on a bulky offense team Latias is by miles the best bet and is one the big threats itself. Even if for some reason you had Blissey / Chansey / Seaking / Lanturn available without taking pokemon slots you would prefer it over literally anything but Lanturn for the sole purpose of countering Thundurus. As for being a top threat, the metagame is purpose built for it to put a higher amount of it's Dragon typing and 600 BST to the ground than ever. It's Draco has just enough to 2HKO any non-resists and even Genesect after Stealth Rock and as I said earlier plays conservatively against even Keldeo and Thundurus-T lacking boosting items. Possibly my favorite selling point is that when you start pairing it with things remotely anti-sun (Lead rak w/ Quick attack, Scarftran, Flame Charge Tran, Dnite etc.) you can almost get guaranteed wins against it.
  11. AfroThunderRule

    AfroThunderRule *yawn* ez
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    Hmm, extremely gimmicky but has anyone here had any suggest with Reflect Type Latias? Or is that set just uneffective in the current metagame?

    Also my Latias experience is limited but I do like using the offensive sets, in one of my dumb teams I had both the eons twins and the goal was to lure things like TTar, Scizor and random Steels and hit it hard with Surf/HP Fire and stuff to weaken it and let Latios "sweep" better. (But that was before Genesect so it wouldn't really work.) Steels often would underestimate the power of Latias and just gets smacked, it was pretty fun. Also the extra bulk was really helpful.

    Also I have a dumb question for you guys. I always had trouble using CM Latias, I always found her weak even after a +2. Even after supporting her it would get revenged because of her lack of power. Any help or do I need to get better?
  12. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    reflect type latias is reminiscent of reflect type starmie except i find it's harder to cram reflect type onto latias... i generally prefer having a utility move in fourth slot (roar is my current standby seeing as i'm a stall player). reflect type doesn't really help you sweep cause you lose your stab; sub is better if you really want to harass shit like ferrothorn. the sub also lets you get away on pursuits and only lose the substitute, rather than your entire latias. overall i find reflect type less useful on latias than on starmie. they're the only two pokes i can think of that would run it in OU.



    don't keep CMing when the opp has a counter or strong check still alive. depending on what your fourth move is, you might want to just CM on the switch to take a special attacker coming in, but subcm/roarcm etc are generally better off using their fourth move than CMing if a switch is predicted, unless the sweep is imminent. if weakened, just recover straight away on your free turns. CMing is clearly pointless and a waste of turns. don't stay in on shit like status, genesect (unless burned), etc, they all make you completely useless (if you must take status though, burn is what you want to be taking - burned latias can still sweep, just takes longer to boost up. para/toxic cannot sweep ever).

    the thing is that latias IS weak even after a +2, when it's not invested in satk and has only like one attack lol. sdef steels will tank you pretty comfortably even after a few CMs and rain steels will shrug off HP fire. but your CMs also make you basically impossible to kill with any special attack, because of dat bulk. you ideally wanna burn any invested uturns, physical ice attacks, etc, and then go for the throat. until then stick to recover to stay in play and pivot. the sweep will happen when you have enough time to get to +6 - not hard if your opponent's special attacks are limited to unstabbed ice and such, but physical attackers need to be dealt with first.
  13. ssbbm

    ssbbm

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    needs sub cm in op

    literally, sub/cm/dpulse/recover beats genesect with hazards up, blocks spore off of amoongus / breloom, and basically is the best latias atm.
  14. EnterRAYZORS

    EnterRAYZORS

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    Personally I dont see why shes so low (for her), and I think she makes a great pivot aswell as actually being awesome in practise.
    Latios kind of is overated in my experience. But at the end of the day they are fighting for different roles on a team, so it depends who they are fighting amd have competition from.
  15. Dracule Mihawk

    Dracule Mihawk

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    I agree with ssbbm, the use of substitute is so useful in stopping so much stuff, I mean I like to use the two attacks and cm recover set but the substitute set is still good in bw 2. The chance to block spores, any status moves is a godsend and as ssbbm mentioned with hazards up when gene comes out everytime his hp is being stripped by sr and/or spikes. Sub again if they u turn. And in comparison to Latios, I've always preferred latios as my heavy hitter, but latias as my set up sweeper and all round general pivot. The excellent bulk she brings with the resistances really pulls its weight.
  16. flea

    flea

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    I think the sub is pretty much essential on the CM set. With a sub, Ferrothorn changes from something that will force you out with leech seed or t-wave to something that can't break your subs with Power Whip and easily just gets Gyro Ball PP stalled out. If there's a pokemon you can get to +6 on and destroy with subCM latias, it's ferrothorn.

    On a related note, I've found Sub/Recover/CM/Dragon Pulse Latias to be an absolute monster in this metagame. With some hazards and predicted subs, this thing actually beats Genesect- it U-turns out, takes a bunch of hazard damage switching in and out as you just sub again on the u-turn. You can sub on a switch (or the Ferrothorn that I mentioned earlier!) and as long as a couple select pokemon aren't present on the opposing team, it is not very hard to grab several CMs. You do have to play it right, there are some times where it will not be effective, but it has literally won me a bunch of games completely by itself after a couple deoxys-d hazards being put up.

    It is also VERY easy to predict and get Latias in. This is a metagame full of choice scarfed genesects using flamethrower and thunderbolt when they don't even have a sp. attk boost. Any Rotom-W (even thundurus-T!) is complete setup bait, as is almost any defensive pokemon without a phazing move. I really like Latias in BW2 and I hope it sees more usage.
  17. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Thanks guys for the Luvdiscs!

    I have Substitute as a slash on the CM set, however I do feel that your right that it's effective enough to put it's own set into the OP. I'll go ahead and do that right now.
  18. PDC

    PDC loveless
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    Latias is a great Pokemon and I like it a lot when it comes to how it plays and how well it is in the current metagame. Honest I think Latias is one of the best choices for the metagame as it can easily take rain boosted Surfs, Hydro Pumps, and Secret Swords from Rotom-W and Keldeo. Latios struggles to handle this under pressure, ehile Latias can do it with ease. What I really like about Latias though is that it can preform in both the offensive role and defensive role on a team with strong synergy and a great set of resisted types. Latias helps immensly against Rain and Sun, while being a great team player in weatherless or even sand to some degree. Latias is probably the only Pokemon in OU right now that can single actually outplay and beat it's counters with a simple Calm Mind Substitute set. Latias can play tricks with Jirachi and Ferrothorn, beating the, both with smart play. Tyranitar will typically win, but you get a Pursuit shield with Substitute which I think is pretty cool too. ssbbm is spot on when he says that it is a great set in todays metagame.

    However as of recent I have been running Offensive Life Orb Latias in my sand team, and it has been doing very well as am absorber of water and fire attacks. Acting as a Chrolophyll user check to my team, which otherwise I struggle to take care of. However the moves I have been using in this Latias vary greatly. In fact I have been messing around with Heal Bell, Refresh, and Psycho Shift in one moveslot and messing around with thr status that normally plauges Latias and I feel it deserves a mention in the analysis somewhere. It is a great Pokemon and I believe it deserves huge recognitionmin the variety of movesnit can choose and use effectively on it's various sets. What I really like is the fact Latias can actually handle random Scalds and burns while reflecting them back upon the team with Psycho Shift, curing itself with Refresh almost always with large amount of uses, or healing the entire team with Heal Bell providing solid support. Latias is a great Pokemon and is basically one of the top 10 in this metagame, I like it a lot more than Latios and I really appreciate it's presense on my Sand team, acting as the offensive based defensive glue of sorts to help patch up many weaknesses.
  19. alkinesthetase

    alkinesthetase <@dtc> every day with alk is a bad day
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    LATIAS GETS HEAL BELL?!

    also i agree with everything in your post
  20. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

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    Ferrothorn doesn't wall Latias even if I lacks substitute, I know from experience that Ferrothorn simply become Fodder for a calm mind sweep, Gyroball does like 44%, so all you have to do is spam recover (to avoid dieing to crits) and then calm mind up. +6 dragon pulse is a sure 2HKO.
  21. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Yeah I freaked out when I saw that too. Hate to burst your bubble PDC, but she doesn't learn Heal Bell. Checked on many different sites and Showdown as well. Did you mean to put something else other than Heal Bell? Or were you on some screwed up battle simulator lol.

    Anyways, I did actually mention Refresh as a slash in the Calm Mind sets, however Recover is a more viable option especially if your running Substitute. I made it quite clear how important Refresh can be on more hyper offensive teams to heal things such as Burn/Paralysis/ect. Anyways, get back to me on the Heal Bell thing. I also agree on your post, it's very factual and explains a lot of what I'm trying to prove to the part of the community that's blinded by only using her brother.
  22. PDC

    PDC loveless
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    Sorry guys! I was actually thinking of Healing Wish and got mixed up a little. Healing Wish is still a cool move though, and I have been actually using it in a manor similar to Lunar Dance Cresselia. For example, I was in the case of a part of the battle where Terrakion was able to sweep at high health and Latias was not needed anymore. it sacrificed itself and restored Terrakion fully, which I though was pretty nifty. Considering the great synergy between these two it worked great for last ditch options. It can really turn the tables and actually gave me some really neat ways if getting a win condition. It allows a Pokemon the break down it's counters first, then repeat the sweep and hopefully be more efficient a second time attempting it. Again I apologize for the misconception, but This did give me an excuse for putting another post into this thread about Latias. Thanks for pointing that out!
  23. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    No worries dude. And yes, Healing Wish is greatly stressed on some of her sets, like her Scarfed and bulkier sets. I have found Healing Wish to also be very effective towards the end of the battle, or when I made a bad switch in earlier that almost downed one of my key team members.
  24. Gary2346

    Gary2346 A filthy casual
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    Thanks guys for all your guy's support on this thread. It's really nice to see such an underrated Pokemon in OU finally get some recognition. Looking forward to making another discussion in the future, and thanks for discussing!

    For those of you who haven't participated, you can still continue discussing if you'd like.
  25. IstheCakeReallyaLie

    IstheCakeReallyaLie

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    I've been using Latias in my OU team, and can I just say that, from having used Latios, she's much, much better. I run the standard SubCM set with Lefties. It forms a pretty awesome offensive core with Justified Lucario (lure in something with Dark coverage, switch to Luca, x4 resisted hit nets you +1 attack+CBand).

    Here are the sets:

    Lucario @ Choice Band
    Trait: Justified
    EVs: 252 Atk / 4 SDef / 252 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Close Combat
    - Ice Punch
    - Crunch
    - ExtremeSpeed

    Latias (F) @ Leftovers
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spd
    Timid Nature
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Roost
    - Substitute

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