Latias (QC 3/3) [GP 2/2]

Idyll

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GENDER EQUALITY
[OVERVIEW]

With its great bulk, good defensive typing, and access to reliable recovery, Mega Latias carves a niche for itself as a Calm Mind sweeper. However, it faces heavy competition from Cresselia, which does the same thing without taking up a Mega slot. Unlike Cresselia, though, Mega Latias is more immediately threatening, due to its higher Speed and Special Attack and has better resistances thanks to its Dragon typing, making it a serviceable alternative. Without boosts, Mega Latias's damage output is quite underwhelming; due to needing setup to function effectively, Mega Latias is reliant on well-played support, such as redirection and Fake Out, to work well. Another thing to note is that Mega Latias's effectiveness as a sweeper is often dictated by its matchups against opposing teams, in a sense that it is able to easily set up against some teams and will have a hard time doing the same against others. Finally, like any other setup sweeper, Mega Latias needs its checks removed or sufficiently weakened before being able to sweep effectively late-game; in particular, Mega Latias struggles against that numerous Steel-, Fairy-, and Dark-types in the metagame such as Bisharp, Mega Metagross, and Sylveon.

[SET]
Substitute + Calm Mind
########
name: Substitute + Calm Mind
move 1: Calm Mind
move 2: Substitute
move 3: Stored Power / Psyshock / Dragon Pulse
move 4: Recover
ability: Levitate
item: Latiasite
evs: 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

[SET COMMENTS]
Moves
========

Calm Mind boosts Mega Latias's Special Attack to high levels, increasing its damage output, as well as its Special Defense, letting it tolerate opposing special attacks better. Substitute shields Mega Latias from status and lets it set up on strong attackers without fear. Substitute also lets Mega Latias set up while avoiding opposing Sucker Punch users and the possibility of being ravaged by an untimely critical hit. Stored Power gains boosts to its Base Power as more Calm Mind boosts are accumulated. However, as Stored Power is pitifully weak without a boost, Psyshock and Dragon Pulse are usable alternatives to have an attacking option even while without a boost. Psyshock is preferred as it deals more damage to various relevant targets, such as Mega Charizard Y, Amoonguss, and Sylveon, but Dragon Pulse has marginally better neutral coverage. Recover lets Mega Latias regain its health, letting it stay in play and continually set up longer.

Set Details
========

Maximum Speed investment and a Timid nature let Mega Latias be as fast possible, Speed tying with opposing positive natured base 110 Speed Pokemon such as Mega Diancie and outspeeding threats such as Terrakion and Keldeo. The rest of the EVs are invested in HP and Defense in order to give Mega Latias bulk, helping it take hits better and making setup easier. Latiasite is used in order to Mega Evolve.

Usage Tips
========

It is recommended to Mega Evolve as soon as possible in order to take advantage of the increase in bulk, letting Mega Latias shrug off attacks and set up much more easily. Always try to maintain a decent amount of health with Recover, as Mega Latias needs to be healthy in order to position itself to safely set up. Use Substitute as often as possible in order to block possibly crippling damage and status, such as paralysis or sleep, giving Mega Latias safe opportunities to boost with Calm Mind safely. Rack up Calm Mind boosts as much as possible because Mega Latias's unboosted damage output is quite underwhelming and it can't pose a threat at all if running Stored Power. However, before attempting to set up and clean the opposing team, Mega Latias needs its main checks removed or significantly weakened, most notably opposing Steel-, Fairy-, and, most importantly, Dark-types.

Team Options
========

Being a setup sweeper, Mega Latias appreciates partners that can help give it safe opportunities to boost. Redirection support is appreciated in order to divert attacks aimed at Mega Latias, giving it chances to set up. Togekiss can redirect attacks with Follow Me while also providing addition support with Tailwind, and Amoonguss can divert hits with Rage Powder and cripple foes with Spore. A partner with Fake Out can disable a foe for a turn, providing a chance to quickly set up. Scrafty boasts access Fake Out while also having Intimidate to soften incoming physical hits. Wide Guard support is useful to block incoming spread moves, most importantly Sylveon's Pixilate Hyper Voice. Aegislash has Wide Guard and a good match-up against Sylveon, which a threat to Mega Latias. Additional speed control support is appreciated, as although Mega Latias has high Speed, it's still outrun by threats such as Darkrai and Choice Scarf Landorus-T. Thundurus has Prankster Thunder Wave along with Taunt to stop opposing Trick Room from being set, while Suicune and Togekiss boast Tailwind, with the former also notable for being able to beat opposing Heatran, a threat that walls Mega Latias.

Mega Latias also needs teammates that can deal with its checks in order for it to clean up the opposing team effectively. Most importantly, Mega Latias needs support from partners that can remove opposing Dark-types, as they are immune to its Psychic-type attacks. Fighting-types such as Keldeo and Terrakion can take out Dark-type foes with ease, and Volcarona can hit them with Bug Buzz while also providing additional Speed in Tailwind or redirection support. Partners that can dent opposing Steel-types, which resist both Psychic and Dragon, are recommended, the most notable being Keldeo and Landorus-T. Teammates that can beat opposing Fairy-types also are appreciated, as Fairy-types can hit Mega Latias super effectively and are immune to Dragon Pulse, with some being able to hit through Substitute with Pixilate Hyper Voice. Aegislash and Heatran fit the role well as they can switch in on Fairy-types with ease and hit back with a super effective move.

[STRATEGY COMMENTS]
Other Options
=============

A non-Mega Latias set can be run, but it is generally outclassed by Cresselia in most supportive roles and overshadowed by Latios as an attacker. However, it does have a few niches, most notably its Speed compared to Cresselia and the bulk it has over Latios. An offensive set is viable because, although it's weaker compared to Latios, the extra bulk it has can be appealing, letting it switch in and take hits from foes better than Latios; for example, Latios is 2HKOed by Modest Ludicolo's Ice Beam, while Latias only has a 22.6% chance to be 2HKOed from the same hit. Latias can also run Tailwind much like how Latios does, but the extra bulk makes setting it more reliable. A fast dual screens set can be run, and compared to other dual screen users such as Meowstic and Klefki, Latias has higher bulk and better presence offensively. Other niche moves can be used, such as Healing Wish to give a teammate a second chance, Helping Hand to boost a teammate's damage output, and Heal Pulse to give a teammate a nifty jolt of recovery.

Checks and Counters
===================

**Typing Advantage**: Opposing Dark-types such as Bisharp and Darkrai are big threats, as they threaten Mega Latias while being immune to both its primary and secondary attacking options. Steel-types such as Aegislash and Ferrothorn can easily take a hit, as they resist both of Mega Latias's STAB moves, and hit back hard. Fairy-types such as Sylveon and Mega Mawile are immune to Mega Latias's Dragon-type STAB moves and can hit it super effectively, with the former able to hit through Substituteswith Pixilate Hyper Voice. Genesect and Escavalier can come in on any attack Mega Latias can hit them with and threaten it with a Bug-type STAB move, and Volcarona has Bug Buzz to hit through Mega Latias's Substitute. Tyranitar is immune to Mega Latias's Psychic-type STAB moves and can threaten to KO with a Dark-type STAB move while also bringing sand to rack up passive damage. Mega Kangaskhan can hit for good damage with Sucker Punch, but it has to watch out for mind games with Substitute. If Mega Latias doesn't have any boosts yet, Mega Gengar can trap and KO with Shadow Ball.

**Speed Control**: Thunder Wave takes away one of Mega Latias's biggest assets in its Speed, making it vulnerable to strong attacks and unable to sweep. Fortunately, Thunder Wave is blocked by Substitute. Thundurus can paralyze Mega Latias with Prankster Thunder Wave while also being able to stop setup with Taunt. Trick Room reverses turn order, making Mega Latias vulnerable for a while by taking away its Speed advantage. Cresselia can tank any hit Mega Latias can throw at it and Aromatisse is immune to Mega Latias's Dragon Pulse, making them good for setting Trick Room against it. Tailwind works in the same vein, as it also removes Mega Latias's Speed advantage, but instead of reversing turn order, it doubles the Speed of the opponent's Pokemon. Togekiss has high Special Defense and is immune to Dragon, letting it set Tailwind with ease.

**Utility Moves**: As Mega Latias doesn't carry Protect, it can't block Fake Out from the likes of Mega Kangaskhan and Scrafty, stunning it for a turn. Taunt, mostly run by Thundurus, stops all of Mega Latias's forms of recovery and setup, turning it into a sitting duck. While setting up, Mega Latias has to watch out for Encore from the likes of Whimsicott and Politoed, as this instantly turns Mega Latias into a non-factor on the field if locked into a setup move.
 
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Bughouse

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Before he died, Matt used to use this dual screens Latias that was kinda nifty
 

Bughouse

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I'm not sure why you're selling regular Latias so short when it's essentially a Latios with slightly less power and slightly more bulk. The exact sets Latios plays can be used by Latias and may fit a particular team slightly better.
 

Idyll

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I'm not sure why you're selling regular Latias so short when it's essentially a Latios with slightly less power and slightly more bulk. The exact sets Latios plays can be used by Latias and may fit a particular team slightly better.
true, but Latios is much more effective in offensive roles because of its higher power. The bulk does have its appeal, though. Perhaps I'll make a bigger mention in OO then?
 

Bughouse

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Just as an example:
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Sun: 102-121 (34.1 - 40.4%)
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Sun: 186-220 (62.2 - 73.5%)
-2 252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios in Sun: 93-111 (31.1 - 37.1%)
very solid chance to 2HKO through the drop if 2 overheats or an even better chance to 2hko with heat wave and then overheat

252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Heat Wave vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Sun: 89-105 (29.7 - 35.1%)
252+ SpA Mega Charizard Y Overheat vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias in Sun: 162-191 (54.1 - 63.8%)
cannot 2hko with either path

Latias is a MUCH more solid answer to sun.

Another:
252+ SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latios: 156-184 (52.1 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
252+ SpA Ludicolo Ice Beam vs. 0 HP / 4 SpD Latias: 134-158 (44.8 - 52.8%) -- 22.7% chance to 2HKO

better answer to rain as well
 

BLOOD TOTEM

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Overview
  • The points "As Mega Latias can get boosts rather easily, it makes for a good win condition." and "Needs significant support, such as redirection and Fake Out, to work well." are kinda contradictory, drop the first one as it does need a lot of support to stack Calm Mind boosts.
Usage Tips
  • Mega Latias is a strong wincon bc it has good type match-ups with a number of Pokemon while having high bulk, letting it easily set up Calm Mind and get KOs with its attacking move. <- this isn't really a usage tip lol
  • Talk about how it is easy to get a Substitute up on predicted switches to Pokemon like Heatran if Latias looks threatening.

p well written tho, 1/3
 

Bughouse

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I don't like calling regular Latias it underwhelming and outclassed by Cress and Latios in the Overview. It's a bit niche, but definitely not outclassed given its better bulk than Latios and access to Heal Pulse, Healing Wish, etc. There must be a better way to word this. OO is going to acknowledge all the things that it CAN do, so I don't see why they should be bashed in the overview.

In general frame the overview to emphasize how matchup reliant and dependent on well-played team support Mega Latias is. IMO this analysis is overselling a pokemon that is often unsuccessful as if it is a god.

The actual set itself and general analysis of how it should be played is right on. The tone just needs some shifting.

Because I'm so concerned about tone, I want to hold off so that I can provide the 3rd check and actually focus on your writing. Someone else should give the second check Stratos Darkmalice Arcticblast
 

Idyll

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Sorry for not getting this done sooner. I've made edits to the overview and added Healing Wish to OO since I forgot lol. This is now ready for check #2 :)
 

Darkmalice

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Overview
Mention late-game sweeper used when its checks are removed or weakened

Outside of a mega set, Latias can run an offensive set which, though less powerful, has more bulk compared to the similarly played Latios and a support set which has significantly more Speed unlike Cresselia.
We shouldn't be taking about a set in Overview that has been delegated to OO

Set
I'd change the EV spread to a simple 252 HP / 4 Def / 252 Spe. With many important Pokemon sitting at 110 base speed, I rather have the option of speed tieing with them than a little more physical bulk (of note you now have a 6.3% chance of being OHKOed by LO Bisharp Sucker Punch instead of 0%, but the speed tieing far outweighs a small chance that is dependent on your being on full HP and that can be bypassed by Sub in the first place).

Moves: Sub also avoids Sucker Punch

Set Details: gotta mention why to use Latiasite, even though it's obvious

Team Options
-with your Fake Out partners, also mention they have Intimidate to ease set-up
-let's not mention Wide Guard for Rock Slide for a Pokemon that takes it neutrally; otherwise we'd have to mention it for every Pokemon. Can also mention Hitmontop again
-can mention Shuca Berry Flash Cannon Heatran under beating Fairies. We've mentioned heatran before, may as well mention again

OO
-offensive set has surprise value

Checks and Counters
-Sylveon bypasses Sub with Hyper Voice - it's worth mentioning
-bug-types worth mentioning too - Genesect outspeeds with Scarf U-turn, Escavalier OHKOes with Megahorn, Volcarona can set-up alongside you and gain Speed well, Bug Buzz 2HKOes and bypasses Sub
-Don't mention Icy Wind. It's actually a good move to set up on, as it's damage is pathetic
0 SpA Politoed Icy Wind vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Mega Latias: 38-46 (10.4 - 12.6%) -- possible 8HKO. You can Sub on that, then CM and your Sub still won't be broken
-mention Politoed for Encore in addition to Whimsciott
-Remove passive damage. Sub will block most of the things mentioned. For the other stuff
---If you want to mention sandstorm, mention Tyranitar in typing-advantage
---lucky poison from sludge bomb. It's a terrible way to beat Latias. The only common users of it are Gengar and Venusaur. Gengar rather Shadow Ball and Venusaur rather put her to sleep. Same goes for random burns.

There you go Memoric :)
 

Haruno

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Remind me again why the only set latias has is some gimmicky shit like subcm stored power that has shown literally zero success anywhere outside maybe some random minitour? That set seems like absolute shit
 
cause the small additional bulk and shit like heal pulse aren't really enough to use it over Latios ever (which should really be addressed in the Overview) and this set has a pretty good niche and can sweep unprepared teams.
 

Darkmalice

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I actually think a regular Latias set should get a set but not enough to force Memoric to write it up - not that good or common. Mega Latias needs one though.

I said I'd do check 3 :(
Just of note, you are allowed to give QC check 3 even if you have given one for 1 or 2, as check 3 is more focused on the writing. (1 + 2 is not allowed)

Memoric
  • Before setting up, it is best to remove threats to Mega Latias, such as Steel-types, Fairy-types, and Dark-types, so as to not have a hampered sweep
  • Best used late-game when its checks are removed.
Combine these points. It's also not just "best used" when its checks are removed. They need to be removed or at least weakened to the point that they can easily be removed - Mega Latias needs to set up to function and cannot do it if those threats are in the way.

Mention some examples of Fake Out and Taunt in Checks and Counters e.g. Mega Kang, Thundurus-I

After this QC 2/3
 

Idyll

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i stopped being a shitter and actually wrote this up yay me :>

ready for the last check
 

Bughouse

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Alright Memoric the tone is considerably too positive for a mon with only a borderline niche

Gotta stress opportunity cost of using another mega and the fact that CM Cress is roughly the same thing, but doesn't take the mega slot. Being faster hardly matters when you're a monoattacker. The same shit beats you either way. If anything, some space should be taken to explain specifically what CM Mega Latias can do that Cresselia can't (more immediately threatening, not quite so messed with by Knock Off, nice water and fire resistances that can help it set up vs weather abusers where Cress might have been too threatened)

Beyond that, make it clear Dark-type removal is the most important overall, as both the main and second attacking options are Psychic type.

I'll take another look later when you've tried again to add some more stress to the negatives
 

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