Latias (Revamp - GP 2/2)

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by shrang, Jul 21, 2012.

  1. shrang

    shrang OM OM OM
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,137
    Alright, lets get the Latias show on the road.

    [​IMG]

    http://www.smogon.com/bw/pokemon/latias

    [Overview]

    <p>Since Latias was unbanned in Black and White, her performance in the usage stats has generally been much lower than what it should be. It is not hard to see why, however, since her brother Latios and newcomer Hydreigon are the general go-to Pokemon for "powerful special attacking Dragon-type". What a lot of people overlook is Latias's higher defenses, which allow her to play a more effective support role. With new threats such as Thundurus-T and Keldeo being introduced in Black and White 2, Latias is one of the few Pokemon that can take them on while still remaining an offensive threat in the long run. Her resistances to common attacking types, namely Water, Electric, Grass, Fire, Psychic, and Fighting, as well as an excellent Ground immunity, allow her to switch in easily and put a stop to many potential threats. When her counters are removed, she can easily sweep late game. However, problems do still exist. Her Psychic typing, which grants her the excellent Fighting-type resistance, is a double-edged sword, as it makes her vulnerable to Pursuit. Her inability to hurt common Spikers such as Ferrothorn outside of weak Hidden Powers make her a big target for Spike-stacking teams as well. Still, as long as you play Latias carefully, there will generally be a place for her on virtually any team.</p>


    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Recover
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Substitute / Hidden Power Fire / Psyshock
    item: Leftovers
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set is probably the one that takes the most advantage of Latias's fabulous qualities. Her respectable Special Attack, base 110 Speed, and fantastic Special Defense allow her to switch in repeatedly over the course of a match to either take hard hits or to set up for a sweep. She is probably the only Pokemon in OU that can check all of Keldeo, Breloom, Virizion, Infernape, Thundurus-T, and a variety of sun and rain sweepers at the same time, all the while remaining a long-term offensive threat. One thing to always remember is that Latias is not a Pokemon that you would pull out and immediately try to sweep with, but is instead used to defend against the aforementioned threats and only attempt to sweep when all her counters have been eliminated. Unlike Latios, who specializes in immediate firepower, Latias is better known for her role as a supporting sweeper. Calm Mind and Recover allow Latias to switch in constantly into many threats while boosting her Special Attack as well as her already massive Special Defense repeatedly. Dragon Pulse is her main STAB attack. The last move is extremely variable, and depends on what role Latias is playing in the team and what kind of EV spread she is running.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Calm Mind Latias is one of those sets that can have all sorts of variation, depending on what role she is playing on the team. The set shown above presents the most balanced option. The EV spread used allows Latias to take two Choice Specs-boosted Icy Winds from Keldeo after Stealth Rock damage, while maintaining maximum Speed to outspeed all the Pokemon in the base 108 Speed tier. Substitute is the preferred option in the last slot, not only to avoid status and Leech Seed, but also to protect herself from Pursuit users such as Tyranitar and Scizor. It also gives her a layer of protection against Choice Scarf Genesect, as well as potentially stalling out Gyro Ball from Ferrothorn, allowing her to set up with relative impunity. Hidden Power Fire allows Latias to deal a lot of damage to both Scizor and Genesect, who both give her a lot of trouble. Be aware that the imperfect IV used for Hidden Power Fire would mean she can no longer speed-tie with other Pokemon that sit on 110 base Speed. Psyshock, on the other hand, allows Latias to deal with Fighting-types, especially Keldeo in a Calm Mind war, more easily. While Latias has no problem against Choice-locked Keldeo, she may run into problems against Calm Mind Keldeo if she does not run Psyshock, as Secret Sword bypasses Latias's special bulk, and will be able to take her down if Keldeo has obtained enough boosts.</p>

    <p>Latias can also use a more defensive set. With an EV spread of 252 HP / 228 Def / 28 Spe and a Bold nature, she can take Fighting-types on a lot more easily, especially Breloom and Choice Band Terrakion. The EV spread allows her to outspeed max speed Pokemon with a base 70 Speed using a positive nature, such as Timid Politoed and Jolly Breloom. If you do decide to use this spread, decent options in the last slot are generally support moves. Reflect allows Latias to cushion Pursuit, as well as potentially set up on Tyranitar that do not use Crunch and do not invest much in Attack. Substitute is again a very good option on physically defensive Calm Mind Latias, as well as Roar to force out set-up sweepers such as Calm Mind Reuniclus. Refresh is another option, as it allows Latias to heal status such as burns from switching into Scald, as well as allowing her to set up on Blissey and Chansey much more easily. However, being unable to block Leech Seed, while not giving her Pursuit and U-turn protection generally makes Refresh an inferior option to Substitute. The main reason that such a spread is not as recommended as the primary spread shown above is because Latias is generally too slow with this spread. The metagame has many fast threats that Latias desperately needs to outspeed in order to defeat them, such as Nasty Plot Thundurus-T, Keldeo, and Sheer Force Landorus.</p>

    <p>Another way to run Calm Mind Latias is to run a fully offensive set. With an EV spread of 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe, a Timid nature and a moveset of Calm Mind / Dragon Pulse / Hidden Power Fire / Grass Knot can be used. While this may be completely outclassed by Latios, this set really shines when used in tandem with her brother. There are two ways to use such a set. One is to use Latios to severely weaken Latias's counters so Latias can roll through later, or to equip a Colbur Berry on Latias, allowing her to deal major damage to Latios's counters, namely Tyranitar, Jirachi, Ferrothorn, Genesect, and Scizor. This would allow Latios to follow up and sweep unimpeded. Obviously, there are downsides to such a strategy, since both Latias and Latios share the same typing and very similar stats, making your team doubly weak to whatever counters both Latias and Latios.</p>

    <p>Pursuit is definitely Latias's worst enemy, and generally comes from either Tyranitar or Scizor. Even with Substitute, it is difficult to avoid getting Latias trapped consistently, since prediction does go both ways. This is why Fighting-types are excellent teammates to use alongside Latias to set up on Pursuit users. Lucario, Terrakion, Keldeo, Breloom, Infernape, Virizion, and Conkeldurr are all excellent contenders. Intimidate users are also good, as well as physically bulky set-up sweepers and Steel-types, such as Gyarados, Landorus-T, Salamence, Garchomp, Gliscor, and Scizor. In exchange, Latias resists most of their weaknesses and tanks special hits without much trouble at all.</p>

    <p>Other Pokemon that give Latias trouble are bulky Steel-types, as well as Blissey and Chansey. The aforementioned Scizor is already one big threat, but BW2 decided to introduce Scizor on steroids&mdashGenesect. Fortunately, it cannot use Pursuit, but its fast U-turns will always cause headaches for any team. Ferrothorn is the next biggest culprit, as it takes little from any of Latias's moves, even Hidden Power Fire if it is raining, and can respond with Leech Seed and Gyro Ball while setting up hazards at will. If Latias has Substitute, she can, with good prediction, PP stall out Gyro Ball and set up in Ferrothorn's face, but this is rather risky play all the same. Specially defensive Jirachi takes very little from Latias's attacks and can use Body Slam to paralyze her, then take her out with Iron Head. If Latias lacks Surf, Heatran also resists most of her options, while being able to phaze her with Roar or cripple her with Toxic. For this reason, Dugtrio and Magnezone are good teammates for Latias in order to trap and remove the Steel-types that most trouble her and her team. Dugtrio can OHKO Heatran and heavily damage Jirachi, as well as taking out Tyranitar. Magnezone, on the other hand, can trap and OHKO Scizor and Skarmory, and as long as it avoids Leech Seed or Thunder Wave, it can trap and set up on Ferrothorn using Substitute and Charge Beam. Since many of these bulky Steel-types pack entry hazards, Rapid Spin users are also good teammates. Tentacruel is a Rapid Spin user that synergizes well with Latias, as it resists Latias's Ice-type and Bug-type weaknesses, while Latias resists or is immune to all of Tentacruel's weaknesses. Forretress also synergizes well with Latias due to its resistance to physical Dragon-type attacks, as well as U-turn and Crunch. Other decent Rapid Spin users include Donphan, Starmie, and Sandslash, if you are using Latias on a sand team. As for Blissey and Chansey, the aforementioned physical attackers can easily set up on them.</p>


    [SET]
    name: Offensive
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Psyshock / Thunder
    move 3: Surf / Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Recover / Trick / Dragon Pulse
    item: Life Orb / Choice Specs
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This set may seem more suited for Latios, which sports a much higher Special Attack stat. However, Latias's higher bulk allows her to come into play more often and dish out powerful hits. While Latios is a powerful wallbreaker, Latias is more of an offensive pivot and special tank. Even without investing in Special Defense, Latias is still bulky enough to take special attacks without much fear. She can easily take a Hidden Power Ice from Life Orb Thundurus-T and OHKO with Draco Meteor. One common complaint is that Latias is too weak initially, needing at least two Calm Minds to hit relatively hard. However, with maximum investment to Special Attack and holding a Life Orb or Choice Specs, Latias is still extremely powerful. Do not forget that it was her Choice Specs set that got her banned in DPP&mdashDraco Meteor smashes everything that does not resist it. Psyshock is the preferred move in the second slot as it KOes Fighting-types, most notably Keldeo. However, if you are using a rain team, Thunder is a very powerful alternative, as it does a lot of damage to bulky Water-types and many Steel-types as well as still doing heaps of damage to Keldeo without having to resort to Psyshock. It also carries a 30% paralysis rate. Surf is the generally the best coverage move in the third slot, as it gets pseudo-STAB in the rain, as well as letting Latias KO Landorus without having to resort to Draco Meteor. However, Hidden Power Fire is also perfectly acceptable, as it lets Latias OHKO Genesect and Scizor when it's not raining and allows Latias to deal lots of damage to Ferrothorn. It works even better if you are using a sun team, since it gets a boost in the sun.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Life Orb is generally the preferred item since it allows her to switch attacks and use Recover to stick around for longer. However, the extra power that Choice Specs brings is hard to ignore. For example, with Choice Specs equipped, Latias has a very high chance of OHKOing offensive Dragonite through Multiscale with Draco Meteor, as well as OHKOing Conkeldurr with Draco Meteor. It also allows Latias to cripple walls with Trick.</p>

    <p>The last moveslot should depend on what item Latias is equipped with. Recover is Latias's best option if Life Orb is used, since it would allow her to switch in repeatedly and recover lost health. Trick is the preferred move if Choice Specs is equipped, to allow Latias to cripple walls. If neither of these moves appeal to you, Dragon Pulse can be used as a reliable Dragon-type STAB attack. In terms of other coverage moves, Thunderbolt can be used if you don't find Thunder reliable enough, while Hidden Power Fighting can be used to hurt Tyranitar.</p>

    <p>The EV spread used is just a simple 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe spread, with a Timid nature to outspeed all the Fighting-types that sit at base 108 Speed, as well as Thundurus-T, Landorus, and all the Pokemon on base 100 Speed, while still hitting as hard as possible. Max Speed and a Timid nature is essential to outpace all those threatening Pokemon, but Latias can slide some her Special Attack into HP depending on how bulky you want her to be, all the way up to a spread of 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe.</p>

    <p>Tyranitar, Scizor, and Genesect still cause huge problems for Latias, especially after a Special Attack drop from Draco Meteor, although Scizor and Genesect need to watch out for Hidden Power Fire as well as rain-boosted Surf and Thunder. Specially defensive Steel-types such as Jirachi and Ferrothorn (especially in the rain) can give Latias trouble as well. Chansey can take Psyshock all day and stall Latias out, but must watch out for Trick. Garchomp is an excellent Pokemon to take on all of the aforementioned threats, especially Jirachi. Other physical attackers that can take out Chansey and most of Latias's threats include Landorus-T, Terrakion, and Gyarados. Heatran is also a good Pokemon to switch into the aforementioned Steel-types. Magnezone is useful for trapping Ferrothorn with Substitute and Charge Beam, while Dugtrio does a better job at trapping and dealing heavy damage to Jirachi. Since many bulky Steel-types in OU carry entry hazards, Rapid Spin users are always welcome on a team with Latias, including Tentacruel, Forretress, Starmie, Donphan, and Sandslash.</p>


    [SET]
    name: Dual Screens
    move 1: Reflect
    move 2: Light Screen
    move 3: Healing Wish
    move 4: Draco Meteor
    item: Light Clay
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Latias's natural bulk and speed make her a solid dual screen user. While some people may again question why not use Latios due to his ability to soften blows further with Memento, Healing Wish differentiates Latias from her twin brother. With Healing Wish, Latias can sacrifice herself to bring back a crippled sweeper to give it a second chance at sweeping. As long as you don't end up getting said sweeper KOed, you can usually attempt a sweep earlier in the game with one sweeper, hopefully crippling or KOing its counter, then switching it out once crippled. Later in the game, Latias can set up Reflect and Light Screen and then sacrifice herself so that same sweeper can rampage through the opposing team unhindered. Essentially, Latias is a faster, slightly less bulky version of Cresselia, but unlike Cresselia, Latias has a bunch of very nice resistances, as well as offenses that are a threat in their own right. Apart from the three compulsory moves (Reflect, Light Screen, and Healing Wish), Draco Meteor is probably the best fit in the last slot so that Latias is not utter setup fodder. Even without investment, the move is powerful enough to deter frailer set-up sweepers from setting up on Latias.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Apart from Draco Meteor, Latias has a number of options she can run in the last slot. Roar can be used to prevent setup, while Wish can be used to give a sweeper a relatively safe switch-in if you are ready to sacrifice Latias at the time. Thunder Wave can also be used to cripple potential revenge killers, or even give your sweeper an easier time in setting up with potential paralysis.</p>

    <p>Good teammates to Dual Screens Latias fall into two categories: sweepers and Pokemon that can take full advantage of dual screens and Healing Wish, and Pokemon that synergize well with Latias in general. Swords Dance Terrakion, Garchomp, Lucario, Breloom, Dragon Dance Salamence, Dragonite, Gyarados, Nasty Plot Thundurus-T, and Quiver Dance Volcarona are all excellent recipients of dual screens and Healing Wish. Shell Smash passers are also extremely deadly with Healing Wish support. When something like Gorebyss pulls off a successful Shell Smash pass, skilled opponents would generally be able to stop the recipient in some way or another, leaving Gorebyss too damaged to be able to Baton Pass another set of Shell Smash boosts. However, with dual screens and Healing Wish bringing Gorebyss back up to full health, it is a lot easier to pass off a second set of boosts to another sweeper that can easily finish off the opponent's weakened team. General Pokemon that work well with Latias are Pokemon that can switch into her weaknesses, especially Pursuit. Heatran pretty much synergizes perfectly with Latias, while Fighting-types are generally first on call when it comes to switching into Pursuit.</p>


    [Other Options]

    <p>Latias can run a pure support set with Wish and Roar, but her relatively low HP stat means she's generally outclassed in such a set by Blissey, Chansey, Jirachi, and Vaporeon. Latias can also use a Choice Scarf set, but is such a set is largely outclassed by Latios, who boasts the higher firepower required for revenge killing various Pokemon. If Latias is to use a Choice Scarf, it is a good idea to use Healing Wish on it to differentiate herself from Latios, allowing her to pull of a fast revival of a crippled teammate in a pinch. Latias can even run a very gimmicky physical set with Hone Claws / Outrage / Earthquake / Sucker Punch, but is outclassed by pretty much every physical Dragon-type in OU.</p>

    <p>Latias has a number of other moves she could use. Hidden Power Fighting can be used to hit Tyranitar harder than all of her other moves, but since it still doesn't do that much to the T-rex, Latias is better off with her other options. Psycho Shift and a Flame Orb can be used to spread burns, but Latias generally has better things to do than that. Similary, Latias can use Rain Dance or Sunny Day as a backup weather inducer, but this is generally unnecessary. Reflect Type is an interesting option to put on the Calm Mind set, as it allows Latias to copy the typings of her counters and hopefully resist their attacks, but is very easily played around. Safeguard can be used to block status, but Substitute and Refresh are generally better options because they are not turn-limited.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Tyranitar is definitely Latias's number one enemy. It takes little from any of her attacks, even Hidden Power Fighting, and checkmates her with Crunch and Pursuit. Even if Latias uses Reflect and invests heavily in her physical defense, she will generally lose to the T-rex. Blissey and Chansey are probably the next on the list, since they do not take much from any of Latias's attacks and can cripple her with Toxic. They will need to watch out Trick, though. Specially defensive Jirachi laughs at Latias's assualts and can paralyze her with Body Slam or Thunder Wave, then proceed to flinch her to death with Iron Head. Ferrothorn easily takes on any Latias that doesn't use Hidden Power Fire (which won't even do much in rainy weather) and can use Leech Seed and Gyro Ball to take her out. Be aware of Substitute + Calm Mind variants, however, since skilled Latias players would be able to stall out Gyro Ball and then proceed to set up in Ferrothorn's face. If Latias lacks Hidden Power Fire, Scizor will make Latias cry by checkmating her with U-turn and Pursuit. Choice Scarf Genesect can outspeed and OHKO Latias with U-turn. Aside from Hidden Power Fire, both will also have to watch out for a rain-boosted Surf or Thunder from the offensive set, as they hurt substantially. If Latias lacks Surf, Heatran can use Roar to force Latias out or cripple it with Toxic, while Skarmory can do a similar job if she uses Substitute or Psyshock as her secondary moves.</p>

    <p>Latias is generally difficult to revenge kill on the special side due to her huge special bulk. Physically, however, she is much more vulnerable, which means she can be revenge killed by Pokemon such as Choice Scarf Genesect, Garchomp, Salamence, and Haxorus. Mamoswine can pick off weakened Latias with Ice Shard, while the rare Weavile can checkmate her with any of Ice Punch, Night Slash, or Pursuit.</p>
  2. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Angel of mercy, how did you find me?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,615
    The SubCM set should have 252 HP/4 Sp Atk/252 Spe Timid. Not sure if it was decided by QC that you would combine defensive and sub cm, but I recommend splitting those sets, or at least put that option in AC because it gives Latias the speed she needs to beat Keldeo and the fairies.
  3. Colonel M

    Colonel M Trap ALL THE PLAYERS!~
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,176
    I've used max HP instead of max SpA on Life Orb Latias. Don't knock it too much, because Latias is surprisingly effective still with it. You can still 2HKO Rotom-W with Draco Meteor from what I know of (unless they're running something extremely bulky) and Surf in the rain still 2HKOes max HP Scizor. The nice thing is Bullet Punch is forced to 48.6% - 57.1% instead of 58.8% - 69.1%, which looks critical, and Pursuit is 64.8% - 76.4% if you don't switch out instead of 78.4% - 92.4%, which helps your survival a bit. Of course, you're walled a bit easier by Tyranitar and Ferrothorn, but that's what Pokemon like Dugtrio and Magnezone are for. Dugtrio really needs to be mentioned for Tyranitar, too, because I've seen Scarf Tyranitar climb back into the rise (and fuck why not?), which makes running Latias all the more scary.
  4. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming The truth is in my hands
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,142
    Feel free to rename the "Fast Calm Mind" set. (Nothing too stupid though!) Or you can change it to offensive Calm Mind, but its got an unconventional spread so I wouldn't be opposed to an unconventional name.

    Now onto business... i'd like you to check out this set. It's a set I used throughout most of BW1.

    name: Latios' Best Friend
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Dragon Pulse
    move 3: Grass Knot
    move 4: Hidden Power Fire / Recover
    item: Colbur Berry
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    If you ever wanted to run Latias alongside Latios then this is the set that should be used(Hence the silly name). This Latias set lures out and defeats every single one of Latios' prominent counters / checks. It beats most Tyranitar's 1 v 1. (Including pure SpD Tyranitar and Scarftar), Scizor, Ferrothorn (watch out for Twave) and it weakens Jirachi considerably. It also has utility on rain teams (since they really appreciate a defeated Tyranitar). It's worthless against Chansey / Blissey and not really that effective offensively, but it has its merits. Really, the ability to dispose of Tyranitar 99% of the time is enough to warrant a set imo.
  5. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Messages:
    4,443
    SpD Tar can switch in on the Calm Mind and 2HKO with Crunch while +1 Grass Knot is a 3HKO. ScarfTar can come in and take a +1 GK as it 2HKOs with Crunch and CBTar OHKOs straight through Colbur after SR. And those scenarios are if he switches into Latias - 1 v 1 it's a massacre. Am I missing something?
  6. jc104

    jc104 Humblest person ever
    is a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Aug 27, 2009
    Messages:
    1,774
    Haha I thought I was the only person who used Colbur Berry Latias. It worked well in gen 4 for me. But now I'm not sure at all. You can beat ScarfTar with two Grass Knots, which was nice when it was the most common set, but it is undeniable that the specially defensive set beats you provided it has Crunch. CBtar is not really a problem though since it is 2HKOed by Grass Knot, will almost certainly Pursuit, and probably will not OHKO with Crunch even after Sandstorm and SR (contrary to what Lee said). edit: yeah I made a mistake sorry - it's a probable but not certain OHKO after both of these things.

    When I used Colbur Latias before half the point was to bluff scarf, which now you can't really do. I'd rather use Colbur Berry Latios with DM/GK/HP Fire/Dragon Pulse or something to support an offensive Latias. This way you may actually catch the likes of Scizor and Jirachi out. Any Latias without Lefties would probably be expected to carry HP Fire.
  7. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,316
    252 Sp Atk +1 Latias (Neutral) Grass Knot in Sandstorm vs 252 HP /192 Sp Def Leftovers Tyranitar (+SpDef): 43% - 51% (176 - 208 HP). Guaranteed 3HKO.

    Specially defensive TTar would be left with 14% health max after 2 rounds of Grass Knot after Calm Mind and SR damage. Latias may very well die in the process, but TTar won't be taking any hits from Latios. An effective Latios partner if you ask me!
  8. tml

    tml

    Joined:
    Oct 5, 2011
    Messages:
    635
    In Other Option's you could mention that Latias has access to Reflect Type which is helpful against Scizor and Tyranitar. It's a little gimmicky but I think it deserves a mention. You could also mention a possible scarf set, I have used one before and it's very good, in my opinion. Both seem a little unconventional, but that's why I think it should go in "other options"
  9. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Mar 17, 2010
    Messages:
    1,048
    Reflect Type also lets it set up on Ferrothorn (bar Thunder Wave varients) because it will resist Gyro Ball, be immune to Leech Seed, etc. It's a very fun gimmick to use as it basically rewrites the entire list of checks/counters based on who's typing you copy. Losing Dragon STAB is enough to make it just a gimmick in most cases though :/
  10. Lee

    Lee @ Thick Club
    is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jan 2, 2007
    Messages:
    4,443
    'contrary to what jc104 said' CBTar OHKOs that Latias with Crunch 79.49% of the time after SR and SS. js.
  11. EonX-

    EonX- Never Give Up
    is a Pre-Contributor

    Joined:
    May 27, 2011
    Messages:
    1,027
    You must not be factoring in Colbur Berry as it reduces Crunch's power by 50% (Dark resist Berry) Upon Colbur Berry activating, Crunch from CBtar does 79% - 93%, never OHKOing. Besides, even with SR and SS, you get a hard hit in on it. Something of a moot point since Stone Edge will just OHKO 93% of the time anyway. Still, the opponent isn't likely to guess a Colbur Berry and will just go for Crunch, so it does have some merit.
  12. Arcticblast

    Arcticblast improsin + bapongbas gg,,,,,,
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderator Alumnusis a SPL Winner
    Other Metas Leader

    Joined:
    Nov 29, 2008
    Messages:
    4,692
    Out of curiosity, what happened to the old CM standard of max HP and max Speed? What does your EV spread do better (besides live through Specs Keldeo's Icy Wind)?
  13. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Angel of mercy, how did you find me?
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 5, 2012
    Messages:
    1,615
    Defensive CM really needs an EV change. Max speed max HP is enough for subCM. It still walls most special attackers and CM's to +6 with relative ease. I've won many battles 6-0 with just SubCM latias as my lead. She doesn't really need any more bulk than 252 HP really because defensive CM still should not be able to take many physical hits anyway. She needs max speed to beat non-CM jirachi and subcm pony.
    I'm also again not so sure about combining SubCM with Roar/Reflect. Both sets work differently and require different EV's and natures. I also disagree with you saying that Latias is not meant to be offensive- sure, she's outstanding at support but she's also a very powerful and dangerous sweeper. CM obliterates every Ninetales and every politoed not running encore/PS, making Latias a great sweeper for sand teams. Not even Amoonguss, one of the tier's best and most popular specail wall (bar the blobs) can not defeat SubCM Latias 1 on 1. It definitely deserves it's own set.
  14. Sayonara

    Sayonara don't forget

    Joined:
    Nov 18, 2011
    Messages:
    779
    Thunder Wave deserves an OO mention imo - the ability to paralyze stuff like Tornadus, Tornadus-T and ScarfTar (on the switch-in) can be handy, although it shouldn't be a main option.
  15. shrang

    shrang OM OM OM
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,137
    The new spread lets you reach a similar level of special tankishness while leaving you some EVs to spare on Special Attack (ie it's more efficient).

    And yes, after discussing this with QC, we've decided that Substitute is generally better on the fast spread than the slow one, so I've just slashed it onto the fast set instead of the slow one.
  16. Princess Bubblegum

    Princess Bubblegum

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2011
    Messages:
    2,967
    I definitely agree with Electrolyte, the loss of speed on Latias is not worth the bulk it gains. 252 HP / 252 Spe needs to be the main spread on the defensive set. The listed set should be in AC or something.
  17. shrang

    shrang OM OM OM
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,137
    If you want to run a fast Latias set, you run the first one. The second, slower one, has its uses, and should only be used if you do not mind the loss of speed. 252 HP / 252 Spe Timid is outclassed by the first spread.
  18. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    5,995
    What do the 60 SpA evs accomplish? And why did you put enough evs to avoid getting 2hkoed by Specs Keldeo's Icy Wind only 97% of the time? Why not add a few more SpD/HP evs to guaranteed survive, if the SpA evs don't accomplish anything specific?
  19. shrang

    shrang OM OM OM
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,137
    Alright then, I changed 112 HP to 148 HP to guarantee the 2HKO dodge, although I cannot believe that I needed that many more EVs to avoid just a stupid 3%. As to your question, no, 60 SpA EVs (now 24) does not accomplish anything significant, they were just spare EVs.
  20. Basti

    Basti

    Joined:
    Sep 27, 2010
    Messages:
    133
    I would run some more bulk on the offensive set, since that's the only thing setting you apart from Latios.

    I've been using this with great success:
    Show Hide
    Latias @ Life Orb | Levitate
    Modest | 152 HP / 176 SAtk / 180 Spd
    ~ Draco Meteor
    ~ Surf
    ~ Psyshock / Hidden Power Fire
    ~ Recover
  21. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,316
    Great stuff, shrang!

    Refresh needs a much bigger mention on the bulky CM set, imo. Refresh is what allows Latias to set up CMs on bulky Water-types, Heatran, and Amoonguss, all of which are Latias's primary set-up bait. It's also note-worthy that this set fares worse against Special Sweepers such as Thundurus-T, Keldeo, Virizion, since now they can land a punch before Latias can buffer the damage with Calm Mind. Despite heavy defensive investment, this Latias is a worse check to Terrakion, since it still doesn't enjoy stomaching a boosted Stone Edge. Same story for SD Acrobatics Gliscor and SD Lucario with Ice Punch.

    List Heatran and Skarmory in Checks and Counters for its ability to phaze out Latias without Surf, Thunderbolt, HP Fire, Roar, etc.

    I don't think PK Gaming's set needs an individual set. It just seems too specialized, and not uniformly effective. Despite max SpA and Calm Mind, it doesn't hit hard enough and I find myself unable to break through mons like Heatran, Amoonguss, Jirachi in the Rain etc that I would expect a Special sweeper to just bulldoze past or heavily cripple. An OO mention of Colbur Berry to take out TTar is really the only explanation it needs, imo.
  22. alexwolf

    alexwolf King of Conquerors
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 3, 2009
    Messages:
    5,995
    In addition to what Pocket said, Refresh is the only move that allows Latias to get past the blobs.
  23. Colonel M

    Colonel M Trap ALL THE PLAYERS!~
    is a Forum Moderatoris a Contributor to Smogon
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,176
    Just want.to re-emphasize on how awesome max HP is on the Life Orb set. AC worthy IMO. PKGaming and Pocket can attest to it.
  24. PK Gaming

    PK Gaming The truth is in my hands
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner
    Moderator

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2009
    Messages:
    5,142
    Sorry about the long wait.

    I did some testing and found that 252 HP / 252 Spe was the ideal spread on the balanced set. It basically accomplishes everything the current spread does (including avoiding the 2hko from Specs Icy wind) and taking less damage from physical hits in on average. The 24 SpA evs are filler, and 164 HP / 84 SpD is like 0.4% stronger on the special side and noticeably weaker on the physical side. HP Fire absolutely needs to be slashed after Substitute. It's utility against Scizor, Ferrothorn and other Steels is too huge to pass up. You drop a speed point and lose the ability to tie with Latios & Gengar, but that's the reason why it's a secondary slash in the first place.
  25. Pocket

    Pocket Nyanko Sensei >:3
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnus
    Doubles Leader

    Joined:
    Dec 22, 2004
    Messages:
    8,316
    I know I provided the spread for the Balanced set, but I agree with PKGaming - simply going max HP / max Spe is more ideal, since Latias will inevitably be taking physical hits. The few EVs in SpA are really not worth the rather significant drop in its defensiveness. It's not meant to be a sweeper after all.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)