Latias (Revamp) [QC: 3/3] [GP: 2/2]

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TheEnder

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[QC Checks: Jukain, Valentine, aim]
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Overview
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Blessed with excellent Speed, typing, and bulk, Latias is a force to be reckoned with. Due to its unique Dragon / Psychic typing and access to reliable recovery, Latias is able to consistently check various Pokemon in OU, including Mega Charizard Y, Keldeo, Landorus, and Rotom-W. Latias also sports a decent amount of offensive presence which, while not as much as Latios, is still enough to threaten offensive Pokemon such as Landorus. Due to the changed mechanics of Defog, Latias has now gained a new niche in the metagame as an offensive Defog user. Latias faces seemingly enormous competition from Latios for this role due to Latios's increased damage output, but Latias's extra bulk gives it the ability to switch into more threats, and the edge over Latios it needs to be a prime choice for many teams.

Unfortunately, Latias has a few minor flaws preventing it from being a top-tier threat. Due to its mediocre power and coverage, Latias is fairly easy to wall and cannot break through bulkier Pursuit trappers such as Tyranitar. Latias's typing, while blessing it with several key resistances, plagues it with weaknesses to common Fairy-, Dark-, Ice-, Ghost-, and Bug-type moves, leaving it vunerable to a number of commonly used Pokemon.

Bulky Defog
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name: Bulky Defog
move 1: Defog
move 2: Draco Meteor
move 3: Psyshock / Hidden Power Fire / Thunderbolt
move 4: Roost / Healing Wish
ability: Levitate
item: Life Orb
evs: 72 HP / 184 SpA / 252 Spe
nature: Timid

Moves
========

Due to having good bulk, a good set of resistances, and above-average offensive presence, Latias is one of the best offensive Defog users in the metagame. While Latios has even more offensive presence than Latias, Latias has higher bulk and thus the ability to come in safely on more threats than Latios, making it a more consistent Defog user. Draco Meteor is Latias's primary STAB attack, and is a great nuke capable of OHKOing many offensive threats, including Landorus, Keldeo, and Thundurus.

Choosing what coverage move to run in the third slot depends on what your team needs. Psyshock serves as a secondary STAB attack, hitting Mega Venusaur and Fighting-types such as Conkeldurr, Terrakion, and Breloom for super effective damage. Hidden Power Fire functions as a way of hitting Steel-types such as Ferrothorn, Scizor, and Bisharp, which often switch into Latias super effectively. Lastly, Thundurbolt is an option if hitting Mandibuzz, Skarmory, and Water-types such as Azumarill, Slowbro and Suicune for super effective damage is important to your team. Choosing what move to run in the last moveslot decides how you want your Latias to function. Roost gives Latias reliable recovery, making it able to switch into threats such as Landorus, Keldeo, and Mega Charizard Y multiple times. However, if your team already has these threats covered and benefits more from Healing Wish's utility, use it over Roost.

Set Details
========

The EVs are designed to make Latias bulky enough to come in on resisted or neutral hits from various offensive threats, while still maintaining offensive presence. 72 EVs are put in HP, which increases Latias's bulk to the point at which it always avoids the 2HKO from Life Orb Thundurus's Hidden Power Ice, and also makes Latias hit a Life Orb number. 184 EVs in Special Attack with a Life Orb equipped are enough for Latias to always OHKO Landorus with Draco Meteor after damage from Stealth Rock. Latias's fantastic Speed tier lets it outspeed many key threats; as such, running maximum Speed with a Timid nature is required.

A bulkier spread of 152 HP / 104 SpA / 252 Spe can be run to always avoid the 2HKO from Timid Mega Charizard Y's Fire Blast after damage from Stealth Rock, while still having a Life Orb number in HP. To reliably take on Life Orb Thundurus with Stealth Rock on your side, Leftovers can be run over Life Orb. However, when running Leftovers, you are advised to use an EV spread of 160 HP / 96 SpA / 252 Spe to never be 2HKOed by Life Orb Thundurus's Hidden Power Ice.

Usage Tips
========

Thanks to its good bulk and key set of resistances, Latias is able to come in on hard hitters such as Keldeo, Landorus, Breloom, and Rotom-Wash. The utility Defog provides is great for any team, and bringing Latias in to clear hazards is appreciated at any time of the match. If the opponent has a potential Pursuit trapper, such as Tyranitar and Bisharp, you will have to play carefully with your Latias, because letting the opponent get their Pursuit user in against your Latias means that it is checkmated. Pokemon with the ability Defiant may take advantage of your Defog, so playing carefully around Defiant users such as Bisharp is advised as well. Lastly, the likes of Thundurus and Landorus sometimes run Knock Off to lure in and hit Latias hard on the switch, which is something you should consider when playing against these Pokemon.

Team Options
========

Pokemon which appreciate hazards gone, such as Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Pinsir, Dragonite, and Thundurus make good teammates as they can take advantage of Latias's utility. If Latias is running Healing Wish, Focus Sash users such as Mamoswine, Breloom, Terrakion, Bisharp, Diggersby, and Garchomp make great use of Latias's utility as it can reinstate their Focus Sashes by clearing hazards and then fully healing them with Healing Wish.

If Latias is running Roost, Fighting-types such as Keldeo and Breloom are great teammates, as they are capable of switching into and threatening the common Pursuit users that like to trap Latias. Synergy-wise, Ferrothorn and Scizor make good teammates, as they both resist Dragon- and Fairy-type moves. In return, Latias resists the Fire- and Fighting-type attacks which threaten Ferrothorn and Scizor. Lastly, Clefable makes for a great defensive teammate, as it takes on Greninja and Kyurem-B, while also being capable of setting up Stealth Rock to pressure the opposing team.

Other Options
########

Latias has many other viable options due to its excellent movepool. Surf is a viable option as an attacking move alongside Draco Meteor, as it hits Heatran, Excadrill and Landorus for super effective damage. Hidden Power Fighting can be run so that Latias can act as a lure to Pursuit users such as Bisharp and Tyranitar, and deal a significant amount of damage to them. If Latias is running Leftovers, running Ice Beam is an option to OHKO Landorus, which Latias wants to counter but may not be able to due to the lack of Life Orb. A dual screens set can be used, as Latias's high Speed allows it to set up Light Screen and Reflect fairly quickly and then give a safe switch-in to sweepers such as Dragonite with Healing Wish. However, Defog ruins this strategy and such a set is generally outclassed by Azelf. Calm Mind can be used to turn Latias into a devastating sweeper; however, Calm Mind Latias is generally less effective than it was in past generations due to the introduction of Fairy-types and a new slew of defensive threats.

Checks & Counters
########

**Pursuit Trappers**: Tyranitar, Bisharp, and Scizor take little damage from a majority of Latias's moves due to their typing, and can deal a significant amount of damage to, if not OHKO, Latias with Pursuit. Although they are good checks, they have to watch out for Hidden Power Fighting and Fire.

**Steel-types**: Heatran can come in on any attack Latias has to throw at it, and either hit Latias with status such as Toxic or Will-O-Wisp, or use Taunt, preventing Latias from using Defog, Roost, and Healing Wish. Ferrothorn also comes in on any attack bar Hidden Power Fire, and can threaten to set entry hazards up, use Leech Seed, or directly attack Latias with Gyro Ball or Knock Off.

**Fairy-types**: Mega Gardevoir, Sylveon, and Clefable are immune to Draco Meteor and take little damage from Psyshock. Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon can deal a significant amount of damage to Latias with Hyper Voice, whereas Clefable can either set up Calm Mind on Latias or do a lot of damage to it with Moonblast.

**Revenge Killers**: Talonflame, Scizor, Bisharp, and Mamoswine can all revenge kill a weakened Latias with their respective priority moves. Mega Aerodactyl, Tornadus-T, and Greninja can all outspeed and KO a weakened Latias. Choice Scarf users such as Garchomp and Kyurem-B can OHKO Latias with their STAB Dragon-type moves.
 
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Jukain

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mention more investment in bulk, like 112 or 152 hp evs (both life orb numbers). mention that this spread in the op avoids the 2hko from thundurus hp ice 100% of the time. bulkier spreads w. lefties are also viable though i'm not sure if they should just be mentioned in oo or here. 160 hp evs, for example, with leftovers avoids the 2hko from thundurus's hp ice after stealth rock 100% of the time, or 144 if you don't care about a 0.4% chance. you can even invest less down to 136 if a 1.2% chance doesn't bother you.

approved 1/3
 

Valentine

Banned deucer.
healing wish latias is often used with focus sash users, since you can clear hazards, and then reinstate focus sashes. list sash mamo, chomp, terrak, diggersby, bisharp, and breloom in team options.

2/3
 
I think Thunderbolt should be the first slash because without it you're easilly walled by common walls such as Slowbro, Skarmory, Mandibuzz.

The only way to use Psyshock is to beat Mega Venusaur. You can handle threats such as Terrakion and Breloom with Draco Meteor.
 
Mandibuzz has dropped in usage in OU, but otherwise I agree with what Ptyra said. In addition, regarding your pursuit trapper comment, Latias could always Healing Wish assuming you had a mon to save. You might also want to mention that Latias is commonly used on Hyper Offense teams to fully heal a team member.
 

TheEnder

a petal in the wind
is a Site Content Manager Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Past WCoP Champion
mention more investment in bulk, like 112 or 152 hp evs (both life orb numbers). mention that this spread in the op avoids the 2hko from thundurus hp ice 100% of the time. bulkier spreads w. lefties are also viable though i'm not sure if they should just be mentioned in oo or here. 160 hp evs, for example, with leftovers avoids the 2hko from thundurus's hp ice after stealth rock 100% of the time, or 144 if you don't care about a 0.4% chance. you can even invest less down to 136 if a 1.2% chance doesn't bother you.

approved 1/3
healing wish latias is often used with focus sash users, since you can clear hazards, and then reinstate focus sashes. list sash mamo, chomp, terrak, diggersby, bisharp, and breloom in team options.

2/3
Implemented, thanks :)

Should we keep the Offensive Defog set ?

Bulky Defog seems better to handle threats such as Thundurus, Landorus and Mega Charizard Y, and Offensive Defog is quite outclassed by Latios, its only niche is Healing Wish.

I think Leftovers desserves a slash if you're running Healing Wish. However, that's not useful if you're running Roost.
Mentioned Leftovers in Set Details, Offensive Defog is still fine on HO
 
Should we keep the Offensive Defog set ?

Bulky Defog seems better to handle threats such as Thundurus, Landorus and Mega Charizard Y, and Offensive Defog is quite outclassed by Latios, its only niche is Healing Wish.

I think Leftovers desserves a slash if you're running Healing Wish. However, that's not useful if you're running Roost.
 
"Ferrothorn and Scizor make good teammates, as they both resist Dragon, Fairy, and Ice."
Ferrothorn doesn't resist Ice.



You need Thunderbolt to beat some key threats :

- BD Azumarill (on the switch or weakened by Belly Drum, Psyshock can't 2HKO on the switch beacuse of Sitrus Berry) / CB Azumarill (on the switch)
I used the spreads of Azumarill's analysis for the calcs.

- Mandibuzz (it can use Roost during Draco Meteor lows your SAtk, has Taunt to stop Roost and beat you with Foul Play ; however, with SpD investisment, it can avoid the 2HKO from Thunderbolt, so you need to do Thunderbolt followed by Draco Meteor to beat Mandibuzz)

- Suicune (on the switch with Thunderbolt + Draco Meteor, Suicune wins with CM in 1v1 scenario)

- Skarmory

- Slowbro (it can use Slack Off during you low your SAtk with Draco Meteor)

- Tail Glow Manaphy (bulkies spreads)

Thunderbolt also deals good damages to Mega Mawile on the switch (it isn't very important because it's going to be banned, but that’s always good to mention). Mega-Charizard Y and Keldeo are also beaten by Psyshock.



Psyshock is very good, as it allows to beat Mega-Venusaur, Conkeldurr (but there is only 12,5% chance to OHKO, 43,8% after SR, and Conkeldurr deals huge damages with Knock Off, but with this spread it can't OHKO Latias without SR) and Amoonguss (however Psyshock can't OHKO, even after SR, so Amoonguss can put you in sleep and Foul Play has 11,8% chance to 3HKO, the 3HKO is guarenteed after SR).

Breloom, Mega-Heracross (I'd like to say "on the switch", but Mega Heracross is not going to come against Latias because it's 2HKOed by Psyshock and Draco Meteor), Terrakion and Gengar are defeated by Draco Meteor.



Lastly, with HP Fire, you loose speed tie with Gengar (however, it can't OHKO Latias after SR without a LO), Latios and opposing Latias.

HP Fire can't beat Bisharp, even on the switch, because it can't OHKO Bisharp after SR and Bisharp always OHKOs with Sucker Punch in return. Draco Meteor is already good beacause Bisharp can't switch in more than once.
However, HP Fire is still a good option beacause it 2HKOs Ferrothorn, and OHKOs non-bulky Mega-Scizor and regular Scizor.
 

TheEnder

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"Ferrothorn and Scizor make good teammates, as they both resist Dragon, Fairy, and Ice."
Ferrothorn doesn't resist Ice.



You need Thunderbolt to beat some key threats :

- BD Azumarill (on the switch or weakened by Belly Drum, Psyshock can't 2HKO on the switch beacuse of Sitrus Berry) / CB Azumarill (on the switch)
I used the spreads of Azumarill's analysis for the calcs.

- Mandibuzz (it can use Roost during Draco Meteor lows your SAtk, has Taunt to stop Roost and beat you with Foul Play ; however, with SpD investisment, it can avoid the 2HKO from Thunderbolt, so you need to do Thunderbolt followed by Draco Meteor to beat Mandibuzz)

- Suicune (on the switch with Thunderbolt + Draco Meteor, Suicune wins with CM in 1v1 scenario)

- Skarmory

- Slowbro (it can use Slack Off during you low your SAtk with Draco Meteor)

- Tail Glow Manaphy (bulkies spreads)

Thunderbolt also deals good damages to Mega Mawile on the switch (it isn't very important because it's going to be banned, but that’s always good to mention). Mega-Charizard Y and Keldeo are also beaten by Psyshock.



Psyshock is very good, as it allows to beat Mega-Venusaur, Conkeldurr (but there is only 12,5% chance to OHKO, 43,8% after SR, and Conkeldurr deals huge damages with Knock Off, but with this spread it can't OHKO Latias without SR) and Amoonguss (however Psyshock can't OHKO, even after SR, so Amoonguss can put you in sleep and Foul Play has 11,8% chance to 3HKO, the 3HKO is guarenteed after SR).

Breloom, Mega-Heracross (I'd like to say "on the switch", but Mega Heracross is not going to come against Latias because it's 2HKOed by Psyshock and Draco Meteor), Terrakion and Gengar are defeated by Draco Meteor.



Lastly, with HP Fire, you loose speed tie with Gengar (however, it can't OHKO Latias after SR without a LO), Latios and opposing Latias.

HP Fire can't beat Bisharp, even on the switch, because it can't OHKO Bisharp after SR and Bisharp always OHKOs with Sucker Punch in return. Draco Meteor is already good beacause Bisharp can't switch in more than once.
However, HP Fire is still a good option beacause it 2HKOs Ferrothorn, and OHKOs non-bulky Mega-Scizor and regular Scizor.
Yeah, gonna take away Ice mention. Again, Jukain has said his opinion and I agree with him, so I don't think I'll bother changing up order of slashes (mentioned all the pokes you listed under "bulky waters".
 
Thunderbolt allows to beat 5 threats you can't beat without (Suicune is rare and quite outclassed by other bulky-Water types), Psyshock allows to beat 3 and HP Fire 2.


I'd like to see Thunderbolt second at least.
 
Good analysis. I agree with users saying that Latias makes a great defogger. Did it surpass Zapdos? Just curious. Anyways, i've never used that much Latios/Latias, but i can say that HP Fire never crossed my mind! Bisharp is annoying to defeat with Latios/Latias, so i'm glad that move was put there. But i have to agree with Ptyra on T-bolt being more useful than HP Fire. Mandibuzz, Azumarill, Suicune, Slowbro, and Skarmory are difficult to take down without the correct set. Plus the benefit of T-bolt is the chance of paralyzing, which can either help you survive or get rid of unnecessary hazards on your field. Draco Meteor is a great STAB move, but players at times misuse the move and lose as a result of their low Atk. Good job, nonetheless!
 
Due to having good bulk, a good set of resistances, and a lot of offensive presence, Latias is one of the best offensive defoggers in the metagame.
Exactly. This set really doesn't really scream "bulky defogger." This is almost the Offensive set to a tee; same item, same moves + Roost, slightly different spread and plays exactly the same. The EV spread really doesn't make this a different set and it could simply be mentioned in the Set Details of a Latias revamp.

If this is supposed to be a bulky defogger, Roost and Leftovers should be the only options, if a bulky Defog Latias is even considered viable. Even with more defensive investment, it's weak w/o LO and badly needs a coverage move in the third slot. If it is, I'd suggest Reflect Type in the third slot to make it less of Pursuit bait.
 

LeoLancaster

does this still work
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Exactly. This set really doesn't really scream "bulky defogger." This is almost the Offensive set to a tee; same item, same moves + Roost, slightly different spread and plays exactly the same. The EV spread really doesn't make this a different set and it could simply be mentioned in the Set Details of a Latias revamp.

If this is supposed to be a bulky defogger, Roost and Leftovers should be the only options, if a bulky Defog Latias is even considered viable. Even with more defensive investment, it's weak w/o LO and badly needs a coverage move in the third slot. If it is, I'd suggest Reflect Type in the third slot to make it less of Pursuit bait.
If anything I'd think the max/max EV spread would be mentioned in the Set Details of this one, since if you want to go max/max the only real reasons to pick Latias over Latios would be 1) access to Healing Wish for HO teams or 2) the ability to more effectively run Defog + Roost. But if you want Defog + Roost, why not go even bulkier? Max/max LO Latias w/three attacks is just outlclassed by Latios.

Also ninja'd by Jukain :]
 
Thunderbolt must be slashed before HP Fire.


HP Fire allows to hit only 2 targets (Ferrothorn and Scizor) and make you loose speed tie against Gengar and Lati@s.


Thunderbolt is more useful. You can beat common walls (Skarmory, Mandibuzz) and bulky-Water types (Slowbro, revenge kill BD Azumarill or beat it on the switch).


The principal reason to use Psyshock is Mega Venusaur. In 1v1 scenario, Amoonguss can win with Spore and Foul Play and you loose against Conkeldurr.

Vs Amoonguss
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 291-346 (67.3 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 94-112 (29.4 - 35.1%) -- 11.8% chance to 3HKO
3HKO is guarenteed because of LO recoil.

Vs Conkeldurr
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 299-354 (85.1 - 100.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (43,8% after SR)
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 268-316 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There's more than 50% chance to OHKO with LO recoil, and if Knock Off doesn't doesn't OHKO, Conkeldurr can achieve Latias with Mach Punch.
 

TheEnder

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Thunderbolt must be slashed before HP Fire.


HP Fire allows to hit only 2 targets (Ferrothorn and Scizor) and make you loose speed tie against Gengar and Lati@s.


Thunderbolt is more useful. You can beat common walls (Skarmory, Mandibuzz) and bulky-Water types (Slowbro, revenge kill BD Azumarill or beat it on the switch).


The principal reason to use Psyshock is Mega Venusaur. In 1v1 scenario, Amoonguss can win with Spore and Foul Play and you loose against Conkeldurr.

Vs Amoonguss
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 136+ Def Amoonguss: 291-346 (67.3 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Black Sludge recovery
0- Atk Amoonguss Foul Play vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 94-112 (29.4 - 35.1%) -- 11.8% chance to 3HKO
3HKO is guarenteed because of LO recoil.

Vs Conkeldurr
184 SpA Life Orb Latias Psyshock vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Conkeldurr: 299-354 (85.1 - 100.8%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO (43,8% after SR)
252+ Atk Conkeldurr Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 72 HP / 0 Def Latias: 268-316 (84 - 99%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
There's more than 50% chance to OHKO with LO recoil, and if Knock Off doesn't doesn't OHKO, Conkeldurr can achieve Latias with Mach Punch.
The order is already decided would you stop bugging it, please
 
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