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Latias (Rewrite) (look inside for more details)

Discussion in 'Locked / Outdated Analyses' started by Jukain, Sep 6, 2012.

  1. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
    is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Contributor to Smogonis a Smogon Media Contributor
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    what there is [url (open)
    http://www.smogon.com/dp/pokemon/latias[/url] there]
    name: Wish Support
    move 1: Wish
    move 2: Protect / Recover
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Toxic / Grass Knot / Thunder / Calm Mind
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 112 HP / 204 SpA / 192 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>A set exclusive to Latias. One may prefer this set over the previous set if his/her team is loaded with Pokémon who pack no recovery moves. Wish allows them to be healed. Protect allows Wish to heal Latias and scout for Choice Banded moves, but Recover's instant recovery will be handy if you are facing a slow Pokémon with low health. Toxic works nicely in conjunction with Protect and Wish, while Grass Knot or Thunder gives more diversity in attacking. Calm Mind ensures that Latias is not defeated by other Calm Minders such as Kyogre.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Anything which will take a beating in the course of the battle, be it from Stealth Rock and Spikes or from general switching in, that cannot Recover away damage welcomes a Wish passer, and Latias does this job well. She can help out almost anything, from Wobbuffet to Life Orbers such as Groudon. When working out what to place with this Latias, you should be instead working out what Latias can do for your other teammates, as this variant is only for support and thus does not really need any dedicated support of its own.</p>


    The actual set is fine, but the description desperately needs more content. I is lacking in explanations and teammates, as well as any other options mentioned in AC and a general gist of what the set does. Here's what I've got so far:

    name: Wish Support
    move 1: Wish
    move 2: Protect / Recover
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Toxic / Grass Knot / Thunder / Calm Mind
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 112 HP / 204 SpA / 192 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    - due to Soul Dew making her really specially bulky, Latias can switch-in to the likes of Kyogre and Mewtwo to wall them
    - Latias has Wish, which can make it so a teammate can recover half of its health just by Latias switching out to it after use
    - this can help a lot with Pokemon that normally lack recovery like Giratina-O and Dialga that are likely to be taking a few hits due to their great resistances and monstrous power
    - Protect allows you to scout out incoming moves to be on the safe side so that Latias's helpful Wish support isn't gone too quickly, as well as making pseudo-reliable recovery with infamous Wish + Protect combination
    - Recover gives you reliable recovery when you need to recover her health to take a hit
    - Toxic is for crippling bulky variants of Kygore and Groudon, as well as other walls like Lugia and to beat Wobbuffet that comes in to encore Calm Mind or something
    - Grass Knot gets super effective coverage against Kyogre and Groudon
    - Thunder has great coverage in Ubers overall, you can spread paralysis with it and it hits Kyogre and Lugia
    - You can even run CM if you're running Recover and make a sort of multipurpose Latias that can pull off a sweep but with Wish for utility outside of sweeping

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    - the EVs allow you to outspeed most Palkia, take an Ice Beam fairly comfortably from Kyogre (meaning it does not 2HKO without Stealth Rock in play), and the remainder of the EVs are in Special Attack to make Dragon Pulse/coverage attack hit harder
    - Soul Dew is the item of choice because well really it's the only reason you use Latias, helps it check Kyogre and I guess Manaphy
    - you can potentially run Roar in the last slot to phaze out things like RestTalk CM Kyogre, then you'll want hazard support from the likes of Forretress and Dialga
    - teammates like Dialga and Giratina-O that will be taking lots of hits throughout the game due to their excellent resistances love Latias's Wish support to keep them in top shape, the former also benefits from Latias being immune to Ground-type moves and resistant to Fighting-type moves, while Latias benefits from Dialga being resistant to Dark- and Ghost-type moves as well as being neutral to Dragon-type moves
    - Wobbuffet likes the Wish support to be able to even do its job multiple times and eliminate multiple different Pokemon
    - Kyogre and Groudon, which are very important to keep alive especially when facing opposing weather, enjoy Wish support to ensure that they outlast the opposing weather inducer to keep their preferred weather up (I guess Tyranitar, Abomasnow, and Hippowdon fit this description as well, with Tyranitar being by-and-far the most notable of the three)

    Also, no insult to the author, but this isn't written very well at all. There are several grammar and prose issues and a few more examples could be added here and there. I'd like to rewrite this (not particularly needing to have QC check over it but that's fine) to overall improve the analysis

    The Remainder of the Analysis In Its Current State (open)

    [Overview]

    <p>Do not be fooled by Latias's one year stint in OU. With Soul Dew attached, she is one of the most useful and versatile Pokemon in the Ubers tier, being able to check a huge number of dangerous threats, most notably Kyogre, while threatening to sweep at a moment's notice. Latias is also a brilliant support Pokemon, being able to pass Wish to teammates or set up screens to assist in a sweep. There is a place for Latias on any Ubers team and she will always perform her job well. She may not carry as much raw firepower as her brother Latios, but what she lacks in strength, she more than makes up for in bulk.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Dragon Pulse
    move 3: Recover
    move 4: Grass Knot / Thunder / Refresh
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 112 HP / 204 SpA / 192 Spe

    <p>Latias steps forth from ADV into the treacherous grounds of the DPP Ubers. In the faces of Kyogre and Palkia, she stands in their way from completely ripping apart an Uber team. With her incredible hold item, Soul Dew, Palkia's Life Orb-boosted Spacial Rend also fails to OHKO. Using her Speed, she can threaten an OHKO on Palkia with Dragon Pulse before Palkia delivers a finishing blow (watch out for Choice Scarf variants). As for Kyogre, she stands without fear as its Ice Beam only does approximately 48% maximum, allowing Latias to Calm Mind and then Grass Knot or Thunder Kyogre into oblivion. With the help of Recover or Roost, Latias restores her health back into usability, and thus shines again in the battlefield, ready to take something else down. If the user is satisfied with only one offensive move, Refresh rids her of annoying status conditions like Toxic that malevolent beasts such as Fighting Arceus and Blissey enjoy inflicting on Latias, and the paralysis she might face when trying to switch into Kyogre's or Palkia's Thunder. Although Safeguard cannot stop any status she switches in on, it supports her team and keeps her safe for five turns so it is a decent alternative to Refresh. Latias can also make decent use of Substitute, although these variants of Latias are rare, and generally you will want to run the other suggested moves.</p>

    <p>Thunderbolt is not mentioned anywhere in this set for a reason: Thunder does better. Yes, sunlight can appear to ruin Thunder's accuracy, but one should know that the main reason Thunder is used is for Kyogre, Metagross, and the 30% paralysis chance. All Thunderbolt does is 2HKO Metagross after a Calm Mind, which isn't enough to prevent a Choice Banded Meteor Mash from crashing down on Latias.</p>

    <p>Without Refresh or Safeguard, Latias goes down fast to Toxic and other statuses. Blissey carrying Aromatherapy solves this problem and is well worth considering. Although Thunder can deal with Metagross, Steel-types (mainly Scizor, as the others are relatively rare) are perennially problematic for her and can be trapped and obliterated by Magnezone, which also can come in on Dark, Dragon, Bug, Ice, and Ghost attacks, all of which Latias is weak to and are seen regularly enough in Ubers. It can also lure in Blissey and Explode her into oblivion. Tyranitar, Blissey, and Metagross make Latias's life much harder, and in Ubers, she also struggles against Dialga. Choice Band Adamant Dugtrio ensnares these with Arena Trap and takes every single one out, although it generally has to revenge kill. Neither Wobbuffet nor Latias like Scizor, but Wobbuffet can often grab a free turn for Latias once Scizor's gone.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Dual Screens
    move 1: Reflect
    move 2: Light Screen
    move 3: Healing Wish
    move 4: Dragon Pulse / Wish / Recover
    item: Light Clay / Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 216 HP / 40 SpA / 252 Spe

    <p>With her massive Special Defense, Latias can set up both Reflect and Light Screen with little trouble against many Pokemon in the Ubers environment. After setup, she can then sacrifice herself to pass this long-lasting protection to a much more dangerous threat such as Rock Polish Groudon, Rayquaza, Swords Dance Lucario, and Dragon Dance Salamence, to name a few. This Latias is usually best used mid- to late-game, when the recipient has already done significant damage to the opposing team but is unable to continue. Healing Wish gives it a "second chance" at sweeping, allowing the recipient to re-enter the battle at full health and free of any status ailment that it might have received during its first sweep attempt.</p>

    <p>Reflect, Light Screen, and Healing Wish are obviously the crux of the set. The last slot is up to the user. Dragon Pulse allows Latias to deal damage and not be completely crippled by Taunt. Wish can be used if one wants to give the recipient a relatively safe switch in without sacrificing Latias in the process. Recover allows Latias to heal herself, allowing her to switch in repeatedly and set up screens throughout the game.</p>

    <p>Light Clay is preferred to extend the duration of Light Screen and Reflect. However, Soul Dew is also acceptable since it allows Latias to serve as an emergency check to Palkia, allowing her to survive a Spacial Rend and OHKO with Dragon Pulse after Stealth Rock damage. It also prevents Latias from being 2HKOed by Choice Scarf Kyogre's Water Spout, allowing Latias to set up screens in its face. The loss of turns for Reflect and Light Screen are not overly detrimental either, since most Ubers do not require much time to set up and sweep anyway. The EVs are there to make Latias as fast as possible. The Special Attack EVs allow Latias to OHKO Palkia after Stealth Rock damage, provided that Soul Dew is equipped. The rest are placed in HP to give Latias the optimum amount of bulk.</p>

    <p>When they're behind the protection of dual screens, the many absurdly deadly sweepers of the Uber tier become a whole lot more threatening. Rock Polish + Swords Dance Groudon is possibly the best recipient of dual screens support. If Groudon can set up both Rock Polish and Swords Dance (which becomes a lot easier behind dual screens), it is pretty much checkmate for the opponent. Latias can switch into Kyogre and Giratina that threaten to end Groudon's sweep and scare them out, and then proceed to set up Dual Screens. Rayquaza, Dragon Dance Salamence, Swords Dance Lucario, and Darkrai are all extremely deadly sweepers that benefit from dual screens support, as they have more chances to set up as well as becoming harder to revenge kill. Mew is also a great Pokemon to run alongside Dual Screens Latias. Should the opponent somehow stop Mew's first Baton Pass recipient, Mew would generally find it difficult to pass a set of boosts to a second one, due to the fact that it would have been heavily damaged. However, with dual screens and Healing Wish support, Mew can easily pass boosts a second time, since Healing Wish allows it to come back at full health to perform its role again, which almost always results in a win.</p>

    <p>Pokemon that carry Taunt are always annoyances to Latias and her team. Common Taunt users in the Uber tier are Mewtwo, Mew, and Heatran. Kyogre can take on all three with relative ease, dousing them all with its overpowered Water-type attacks. Tyranitar can also defeat all three, being able to survive a non-Life Orb Mewtwo's Aura Sphere after a Calm Mind, and defeat it with Crunch. Pokemon that provide entry hazards for dual screens recipients are also appreciated. Deoxys-S is the most efficient entry hazard user in the Uber tier, being able to set up both Stealth Rock and Spikes with blistering Speed. Groudon can set up Stealth Rock while stopping Tyranitar and Scizor that often cause Latias problems. Forretress can set up all three kinds of entry hazards while resisting all of Latias's weaknesses.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Roar allows Latias to phaze other Calm Minders trying to set up on her, such as Blissey and Arceus. Psycho Shift allows Latias to transfer status inflicted on her to the opponent, but as an anti-status move, it pales in comparison to Refresh and Safeguard. Hidden Power Fire and Dragon Pulse are unresisted by anything but Heatran, and will help Latias fend off those nasty Steels such as Metagross, Scizor and Forretress. However, Latias will lose the ability to beat Calm Mind / Rest Kyogre one on one. Psychic allows Latias to hurt Fighting Arceus. Finally, Draco Meteor is always available as an option if one wants to score some KOs where Dragon Pulse cannot, but it should generally be left to Latios, where he can use his higher Special Attack to score an instant OHKO on Mewtwo. Don't bother with Ice Beam—it fails to OHKO Groudon so one might as well use Dragon Pulse for the better coverage in the Uber metagame.</p>

    <p>Latias is fairly adept at setting up a Light Screen with her massive Special Defense, allowing her to take special attacks like they're banana peels flung at her. Reflect is also an option, but her significantly lower Defense does not help with that. Lugia sets up Reflect better thanks to its much higher Defense. Healing Wish is quite gimmicky, as most of the time, sacrificing Latias is not worth it. Finally, Latias learns Charm, but Reflect is generally superior to it because the opponent could switch out of Charm, and the fact that Charm fails to touch Metagross thanks to Clear Body.</p>

    <p>Trick is viable, allowing Latias to become a revenge killer of sorts with Choice Scarf, which is especially helpful against common threats like Dragon Dance Rayquaza. Blissey will detest Choice Scarf, which could well open a sweep for the likes of Kyogre easier. However, Latias won't like being without Soul Dew, and often enough Latios is slightly better at drawing in Blissey.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>If Blissey has Toxic, she will always beat Latias without Safeguard, Refresh, or Psycho Shift. Even if she has Safeguard, Icy Wind can allow Blissey to get in a Toxic before Latias can refresh the Safeguard after it expires the first time. Thunder Wave Blissey can be annoying, as being fully paralyzed can spell your doom if they also have Seismic Toss. Tyranitar and its massive Special Defense will allow it to easily switch into Latias and beat her down with a Choice Banded Crunch. Even a Soul Dew boosted Grass Knot is incapable of 2HKOing Tyranitar (assuming that he is carrying Special Defense EVs). If Latias is not packing Thunder or Hidden Power Fire, Scizor can switch in and deal massive damage with U-turn, or punish a fleeing Latias with Pursuit.</p>

    <p>Metagross is a great check thanks to resistance to Dragon Pulse, Grass Knot, and Ice Beam, meaning it really only has to worry about Thunder and Hidden Power Fire. It has a chance to OHKO Latias with a Choice Band Meteor Mash (guaranteed after Stealth Rock damage), and a Choice Band Pursuit will do even more on the switch. Dark / Bug Arceus can Calm Mind alongside Latias and eventually beat her down with a super effective Judgment. Ghost Arceus takes less than 50% from an unboosted Dragon Pulse and 2HKOs back with Shadow Claw. Steel Arceus will resist a lot of Latias's attacks, much in the same way Metagross does. Registeel's massive Special Defense allows it to take anything but Thunder and Hidden Power Fire (unless the weather is favorable for Registeel), and beat Latias with Ice Punch.</p>

    <p>As for the revenge killing, Deoxys-A and its high Attack will OHKO Latias with Choice Band Ice Punch. Additionally, Choice Scarf Heracross can Megahorn Latias before she does anything. The move Knock Off really hurts Latias, as Soul Dew is her key to success. However, it should be not much of a worry, as the only notable user of Knock Off is Deoxys-D, who is quite uncommon.</p>


    I think that you can see where I'm coming from. The goals of this thread:

    • Get the new additions to the Wish Support QC approved and written up as the old description is really sparse.
    • Rewrite the analysis because it isn't written very well and there are several grammar issues. I don't believe that this needs QC, but it will need GP. If QC members decide that this needs to be updated for content as well, I will of course put it into a skeleton form and make a usual revamp.

    Yes this is a kind of strange update but it is what this analysis needs.
  2. Iconic

    Iconic
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    this set should just be removed from the site. latias doesn't have any business passing wishes. the only reason to use latias is to counter kyogre, and this sadly loses to cm kyogre
  3. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    alright then, feel free to move this thread to l&o

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