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Discussion in 'Suspect Test Voting Site' started by Aeolus, Jan 31, 2009.
Vote. Right now there are 21 voters... if you should have rights but do not, PM me immediately.
After much deliberation, I decided to vote OU. Although Latias centralized the suspect ladder immensely, I based my vote on how much it will impact the standard metagame outside of the suspect ladder. Based on my expectations, the centralization on the suspect ladder will not be rampant if Latias is allowed in OU, so thats that.
Centralization was due to the nature of the suspect test. People are going to prepare to deal with the suspect, not entirely sure of what they'll face. They'll also try to use and abuse the suspect, praying on people's lack of knowledge (which didn't work too well).
How she stands next to the uber criteria. Definitions are assumed known.
Offense: From every battle I've witnessed involving her, Latias does not fit this uber characteristic. Generally speaking she is just another special attacker like any other non-uber of that category. Anything with decent Special bulk (such as Tyranitar or Blissey) can withstand her assaults with ease. She won't be sweeping large portions of teams with little effort anytime this generation.
Defense: Latias cannot wall any better than the special wall of OU. There are many common attackers that can come in and take her down without much struggle. She is mauled by most any unresisted physical attacks, while special attacks can break her relatively well if she doesn't invest for it (even Blissey needs some Special Defense investment). There is no special trait that makes her a significantly better wall than others (namely Blissey, the special wall every other special wall has to compete with for a team slot).
Support: Similar to the defensive characteristic, there isn't a lot that sets Latias apart for this role. Every part she can play (dual screen, status, wish support, etc) can be done by other available Pokémon without any drawbacks of picking them rather than her. She doesn't simply 'outclass' others that attempt the same thing.
In a nutshell, she doesn't stand out and above (which is what the uber criteria is looking for in a way); she blends in with others of whatever role she plays. She has to compete for a team spot just like anything else, rather than simply getting the spot by being the best at whatever role is needed. A player can choose to use a Pokémon other than Latias for a role she fits and not suffer any guaranteed consequences. This is what criteria I used to vote on.
And I'll throw it out there one more time; if OU does start to centralize, how is it Latias' fault?
EDIT: reachzero had a good idea. Copy-paste :P
For the sake of saving a little time, I'll copy/paste my reasoning from my application to vote. As the following will make clear, I voted Latias OU, with some trepidation about the fate of a metagame with Latias in it.
My criteria for voting any Suspect Uber is to evaluate how well it functions in three aspects, as delineated in our new official definition of "Uber", found in the "Portrait of an Uber" thread in Policy Review. I understand the Offensive Characteristic to mean that a Pokemon is Uber is it can sweep with relative ease without much (2 or more turns of) setup. I understand "relative ease" to mean "without a significant likelihood of being stopped by reasonable means". For example, Lucario does not meet this characteristic despite being able to sweep with only one turn of setup, because there are several Pokemon that outspeed and OHKO Lucario that cannot be OHKOed with Extremespeed, such as Salamence, Gyarados, and Zapdos. All of these are good Pokemon in their own right, they are not gimmicks. By this definition, I believe that Latias fails to meet the Offensive Characteristic; with one turn of setup (presumably Calm Mind) Latias will still fail to KO several common OU threats which can OHKO her, namely Tyranitar, Scizor, and Metagross, and risks being revenge killed by Mamoswine or Weavile as well. I understand the defensive characteristic to mean that a Pokemon is Uber if it is far too difficult to kill by reasonable means; many teams will be hard pressed to kill this Pokemon even if the player makes significant sacrifices to do so. Cresselia fails to meet this characteristic, for example, because although it is almost impossible to OHKO, it has no reliable recovery and is weak to Pursuit; it can be killed very easily and without much effort by common Pokemon such as Tyranitar, Scizor and Heracross. By this definition, Latias fails to meet the Defensive Characteristic, as even the bulkiest Latias sets would still not be able to survive high-powered supereffective attacks such as a CB Scizor U-Turn or a CB Tyranitar Crunch. I understand the Support Characteristic to mean a Pokemon that can support other Pokemon so well that they can sweep easily (or by extension stall easily) through the opponent's team. Gliscor is not Uber, for example, because all it is very hard to kill and stop from Baton Passing +2 Atk and +2 Spe, it can be killed with Water attacks or repeated Ice attacks, Taunted by a faster Pokemon, or (p)hazed if it lacks Taunt. Latias has two notable uses as a supporting Pokemon: her knowledge of Wish, and her ability to set up dual screens. While she would be the fastest user of dual screens in OU, she frequently dies before both are set up, and it is worth mentioning that while she benefits most from Reflect (which protects her against Tyranitar/Scizor/Metagross), most Baton Passers benefit most from Light Screen (such as Gliscor and Scizor). As a result, while this is the characteristic that I am the least certain of, I believe that Latias fails to meet the Support Characteristic. This is the reasoning behind my voting for Suspect, as you might imagine, I intend to vote Latias as OU. I am concerned for the health of the metagame should Latias become OU (four OU dragons is too many for a healthy metagame, IMO, as TAY and ToF demonstrated), yet given the characteristics of an Uber, I cannot help but conclude that Latias is OU material. If a metagame with Latias in it is overcentralized around Dragons and Steels, it is as much the fault of Salamence and Kingdra as it is of Latias (which are both clearly OU as well).
I voted OU.
Latias does not have enough immediate power to sweep a team; it can be stopped cold by Blissey, and by various bulky physical sweepers, most notably Scizor, Tyranitar, and Metagross.
Latias's defensive capabilities are ruined by Toxic and cannot withstand assaults from Pokemon such as the aforementioned three.
Latias's supporting capabilities, while nothing to scoff at, are a bit limited. The one that sticks out in my mind is the dual-screen one. It would have been more threatening if it learned Taunt, but as it doesn't, the set-up of the sweeper was impeded by Perish Song, Reflect, and Toxic.
I voted OU
Following reachzero example, I'll copy-paste my reasoning expressed in the paragraph needed to gain the voting right:
• About the offensive characteristic: from what I’ve experienced on the suspect during the month, latias has never swept teams alone. The specs set requires a bit of prediction, but can be countered in a way similar to specsmence (obviously blissey completely wall it) and, unlike salamence, latias is a lot easier to revenge-kill. The calm mind set requires time to set-up and in a such offensive oriented metagame, it’s hard to find the time to set up 2-3 calm minds, not to mention that to beat blissey one vs. one she has to pack safeguard-recover and so she has only one attacking move (dragon pulse) which really incapacitate her sweeping potential. The life-orb set is a little more problematic, but considering how common sandstorm team are, she’s losing a lot of hp every turn, which means she’s not going to sweep much, and honestly, I think salamence can use life orb sets a lot better. Seriously, latias has a lot of potential counters. I don’t know if the same can be said about salamence, considering how unpredictable it can be…
• About the defensive characteristic: latias is a great counter to infernape and zapdos (to mention a few) but she’s completely destroyed by tyranitar, scizor, bronzong (gyro ball usually 2hko’s and bulky variants can be put to sleep), jirachi (can paralyze her and\or hit hard with u-turn\iron head), metagross.
• About the support characteristic: well, latias can be a decent wish-passer, but personally I think that blissey\vaporeon can pull of that set better. The only set that worries me a bit is the double screen one: if she sets up a reflect, she can not only support the team, but also escape from some pursuiters, not to mention that she’s fast enough to set up both the screens before being hit by the majority of her counters. Honestly, this is the only aspect of latias which I’m dubious about, but I think that at least we should allow her to the 2nd stage of the test, to verify if she’s such a broken support pokèmon.
• Overcentralization: according to the December usage on the standard ladder, scizor-tyranitar-blissey are in the top ten of the list, metagross is 11th, bronzong 13th , jirachi 15th. In my opinion, this shows that the game is already centralized around these pokèmons. The December stats for the suspect ladder also show a great usage of magnezone which was probably used just to eliminate the possible latias counters, well, I don’t really see this as a problem, maybe because I like magnezone, or maybe because I feel that scizor is a lot deadlier than latias.
I voted OU. During the testing period, I found latias to be a lot of fun to use but limited in the offensive, defensive, and supporting characteristics
that have been defined for an uber.
Didn't see enough evidence to show that it would break ou.
I voted OU.
Looks like the deal is sealed, Latias is OU.
I voted OU because no single set or trait of Latias or combination of traits made it Uber by definition
In summary, my vote was largely based on the performance of the suspect from personal experience. A weakness to pursuit combined with a lack of power to deal with Pursuit users which can switch in and KO it does not allow it to act as a persistent offensive or defensive threat throughout a game. Latias suffers from 4-slot syndrome, as CM Latias will always at least lose two of the following: coverage, recovery, or the ability to deal with status, while the Specs version requires good prediction and cannot match the unpredictability of SpecsMence. Its support options are there, but it is either matched or outclassed by other supporters. A great speed tier, stat distribution, and movepool makes Latias solid OU material, but it is not enough to make it Uber.
Ill post my reasoning as well since it's a WALL OF TEXT.
My involvment with the Latias test started from the beginning. I watched how people wanted to fortify themselves from most Latias sets and decided from then that I should make my first team as a anti-metagame team. However I decided that I was to test the waters with all the Latias and see how one of my current teams fared ,that I used on the Standard ladder. The team had no changes made to it from the Standard latter and it still won the majority of the battles against Latias.
I gained valuable information on what sets seemed prominent and began constructing my first team. The various abundance of T-Tars lead me to add Breloom to my team which is a fantastic switch in and allowed me to set up easily. The Latias set I used on my team was Specs Latias since its the only one who has a shot at taking down most T-Tar with Modest Specs Surf. The team ended up being Bronzong(Lead SR), Vaporeon(Wish Protect), T-Tar(CB Sp Def Heavy), Latias(Specs), Lucario(SD LO Jolly), and Breloom(Sub Seed). The team seems very standard with Specs Latias being replaceable with Specs Salamence barring SR weak but Intimidate ability. Overall the changes made to it were none as soon as it reached these sets. I won most of the battles with this team as I used it for a week and half.
However I began to see Stall teams featuring Latias and decided that I should aim for that next team next. I took some days off so I was not every day Laddering but changes were few and began to construct a Stall team with Latias being a nice bulky Screener with recover. At first it only for maybe one screen off since the Ladder was so T-Tar heavy so Reflect and switch as it pursuited for less than 50%. The screen Latias however became set up bait so I switched it to a Bulky Calm Mind Latias with Refresh for Status mimicking the Uber Latias. Over all it still managed to get countered by T-Tar, Scizor, Jirachi, and other Steels. My second Latias team ended up being Forretress(Lead 3 Entry Hazard Spinner Shed Shell), Blissey(Seismic Toss Wisher), Rotom(Sleep Talker), Shaymin(Sub Seed), Latias(Bulky CM), and Slowbro(T-Waver Fight resist). Shed Shell is bolded as an Item for Forry since Magnezone ran rampant and my team really depended on entry hazzards. This team managed to hold its own against offensive and stall teams but steels still managed to take down Latias. Both Team were used every time I was on Shoddy trying both out and also still used my Standard Ladder team from time to time and no changes were made then. I continued Laddering till the second to last day the test ended.
I managed to still use my Standard Ladder team to ladder and managed to make two Latias teams with different playstyles a Offensive Latias team and a Stall Team Latias team.
Now for the characteristic of Latias after battling with it and against it I have watched as it managed to sweep as CM but I also watched it fail against the abundant T-Tar. Overall its will be reviewed with the three characteristics in mind.
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is capable of sweeping through a significant portion of teams in the metagame with little effort.
~Overall with the abundance of T-Tar and Steels like Jirachi Metagross and Scizor to name a few Latias won't sweep unless those pokemon are taken out. Magnezone gained rise in usage to accomplish this for Latias as people wanted to sweep with her. Overall she won't sweep unless your team is heavy stall or any possible checks or counters are taken out, a suituation in which most pokemon like Lucario can accomplish if they have the same support. In the end she ends up in the same boat as like Lucario and Salamence to name the popular sweepers.
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it is able to wall and stall out a significant portion of the metagame.
~Overall Latias in Suspect Ladder would have a hard time walling due to being T-Tar bait and various Steels. Defensively she can set both screens up, recover up, and either mono attack or Status with T-Wave. However Dual Screening can be done by other pokemon who can help set up with other moves like Memento Uxie and Dual Screen Bronzong. Overall her defensive capabilities are there but again other pokemon can do the same.
A Pokémon is uber if, in common battle conditions, it can consistently set up a situation in which it makes it substantially easier for other pokemon to sweep.
~Support wise she can maybe run some surprise set but I can't see her running like a good support set since those are few in examples. I myself can't seem to fully picture a good supporter that is not part of a Baton Pass chain or with a Trapping ability. I hope more examples are produced with this characteristic since it seems to be the lesser seen characteristic.
Overall Latias to me is OU.
also im giddily anticipating test with soul dew we will do in a month after dewless latios
Voted OU. First poké from Ubers to go down to OU in this system. The system works!
I am voting OU. In relation to the offensive characteristic: If a pokemon if capable of sweeping through an entire team with little or no effort. In my matches I have found that latias is easy to counter and has a hard time sweeping through teams. The abundancy of scizor, tyranitar and common steel types such as metagross (not to mention special sponges such as snorlax and blissey), make it extremely hard for latias to sweep through the majority of teams.
Defensive Characteristic: Latias cannot wall / stall out a significant portion of the metagame. Latias can set up dual screens and recover, but it cannot stop common pokemon from setting up against it, such as SD lucario, SD scizor, nasty plot togekiss, etc. Also, with the abundancy of pokemon that can pursuit it, it will not stay around for long.
It can pass wishes decently, but Vaporeon and Blissey do that better due to not having a horrible pursuit weakness.
Looks like Latias is officially OU, with 17 votes.
Overall, Latias seems OU.
In my experience, Latias fails the offensive characteristic.
I voted uber.
Voted Uber.... but being 17-3... lol guess it doesn't matter xD.
ps i know this isn't meant to be much of a discussion thread but i'm doing this to help
how do you know how much it will impact the standard metagame in two weeks? two months? four months?
i will remind you and everyone else that it took the gamebreaking tickle wobbuffet two months to gain mass popularity. you could argue that wobbuffet was going to be voter uber for smogon's server anyway and that therefore it didn't really matter, and that's fine.
it took over five months for the gamebreaking dual screen deoxys-s set to gain mass popularity. you could argue that dx-s' initial voting was so close that it isn't too surprising that it became uber eventually, and while i would argue that the very reason more people thought it was ou initially is because it hadn't yet been used to its full potential, that's fine.
where your argument and line of reasoning fail is when we consider garchomp. this pokemon has been in standard since the very beginning, and was not even the #1 most used pokemon until a good six months into its usage in the smogon server in 2007. even then, there weren't many convincing cries for uber until the gamebreaking yache berry set gained mass popularity. this was in february of 2008, literally 1½ years after knowing all about garchomp and a year after it enjoyed widespread use on a battle sim (official server).
if you can tell me that you saw garchomp's uber potential coming 18 months before "the rest of us" did, i'll eat my hat. this is one of the reasons why i ask you and everyone else who votes to consider the three uber characteristics in my policy review thread, because none of us can see into the future and therefore need to go on actual experience to make our decisions.
I'll make this short to prevent ranting in this thread.
I guess my post was misunderstood a bit. Based on those characteristics of Uber that you posted, I came to the conclusion that Latias should be OU. I didn't simply say "Hey I can handle Latias, therefore it should be OU", but rather "I've tested those three uber aspects you posted and came to the conclusion that it should be OU." Of course something gamebreaking could be discovered in the transition from Uber to OU, but as of now, with my experience on the suspect ladder, I based my vote on the current state of things.
In no way was I implying that my vote was simply based on handling Latias on the suspect ladder. I did take into account the offensive, defensive, and support capabilities, but I guess my post wasn't so clear, so sorry =/
Looks like I'm the last voter left, voted Uber
cool that's that
OU. The change will be implemented on the ladder at Doug's earliest convenience. Thanks to all that gave their time and effort to this important test.