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Latias

Discussion in 'BW Ubers' started by polop, Jun 26, 2012.

  1. polop

    polop
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    [​IMG]
    80 HP / 80 Atk / 90 Def / 110 SpA / 130 SpD / 110 Spe
    (potentially useful moves are bolded)
    level-up moves (open)

    level 1- Psywave
    level 5- Wish
    level 10- Helping Hand
    level 15- Safeguard
    level 20- Dragon Breath
    level 25- Water Sport
    level 30- Refresh
    level 35- Mist Ball
    level 40- Zen Headbutt
    level 45- Recover
    level 50- Psycho Shift
    level 55- Charm
    level 60- Psychic
    level 65- Heal Pulse
    level 70- Reflect Type
    level 75- Guard Split
    level 80- Dragon Pulse
    level 85- Healing Wish

    TM and HM moves (open)

    TM01- Hone Claws
    TM02- Dragon Claw
    TM03- Psyshock
    TM04- Calm Mind
    TM05- Roar
    TM06- Toxic
    TM10- Hidden Power
    TM11- Sunny Day
    TM13- Ice Beam
    TM15- Hyper Beam
    TM16- Light Screen
    TM17- Protect
    TM18- Rain Dance
    TM19- Telekinesis
    TM20- Safeguard
    TM21- Frustration
    TM22- SolarBeam
    TM24- Thunderbolt
    TM25- Thunder
    TM26- Earthquake
    TM27- Return
    TM29- Psychic
    TM30- Shadow Ball
    TM32- Double Team
    TM33- Reflect
    TM37- Sandstorm
    TM40- Aerial Ace
    TM42- Facade
    TM44- Rest
    TM45- Attract
    TM48- Round
    TM53- Energy Ball
    TM57- Charge Beam
    TM65- Shadow Claw
    TM67- Retaliate
    TM68- Giga Impact
    TM70- Flash
    TM73- Thunder Wave
    TM77- Psych Up
    TM78- Bulldoze
    TM85- Dream Eater
    TM86- Grass Knot
    TM87- Swagger
    TM90- Substitute
    HM1- Cut
    HM2- Fly
    HM3- Surf
    HM5- Waterfall
    HM6- Dive

    move tutor moves (open)
    Covet, Draco Meteor, Dragon Pulse, Helping Hand, Icy Wind, Last Resort, Magic Coat, Magic Room, Outrage, Role Play, Roost, Sleep Talk, Snore, Tailwind, Trick, Zen Headbutt


    Our wonderful jet plane has received Soul Dew again! This lets it do a remarkable amount of things in the metagame that it could only do last generation like becoming the perfect and only Specs Kyogre counter! With the unveiling of gen 5 it also received Psyshock which lets it beat everything and anything in a Calm Mind war, and it gets STAB on it! With Soul Dew boosting its mediocre Special Attack and Defense to sky-high heights, pretty good speed (by uber standards), a fabulous movepool and STABS, it can and probably will leave a permanent mark on the metagame.

    All right but sadly things aren't that high for Latias. Its relatively mediocre HP and Defense stat let it down, in the sense that it probably cannot stomach any Physical hits, unless it wants to be 1-2HKOed by them. What's worse is that its typing unfortunately gives it a wide set of common weaknesses. Its weak to the common Dragon-, Ice-, Ghost-, Bug-, and Dark- type moves, further worsening the poor dragon's life. That doesn't render it useless though! Its multiple resistances, huge Special Attack and Defense, and movepool, along with levitate and high speed are enough to ensure it a good niche in the tier.

    So what sets can this dragon possibly run? Aside Specs Kyogre, what can it beat? Will it put Arceus-Psychic and Dragon's Calm Mind sets out of business? What impact will it have on the metagame? What roles does it fill best? What outclasses it? Will I have to make a Latios thread or will someone else do that -_-? Are sets from gen 4 still as effective as they used to be? Will this thing suffer from 4MSS? Discuss anything you want but remember to always enjoy the discussion! (so long as they're in the Uber rules)

    The possible sets! (more will be edited in when they are discovered / mentioned)
    Stall Breaker
    [​IMG]
    Latias @ Soul Dew*** set by Manaphy
    252 HP / 252 Spe / 4 SpD (EV Spread still pending...)
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Substitute / Refresh / Roar
    -Calm Mind
    -Recover

    Latias's massive Special Attack, Defense, Speed, and ability, levitate, allow it to become an adept stall breaker. With this set when using Substitute, you can beat Ferrothorn one-on-one, out stalling all of it's Gyro Balls. The massive power behind Latias allows it to go on using just Dragon Pulse, as coverage is not necessary due to her insane power. If you opt to use refresh, Latias will gain the ability to set up on Pokemon like Chansey and Blissey, since it can just refresh the status away. Roar also is an interesting option, when Latias's offensive pressure gets coupled with a few hazards on the field, it gains the ability to shuffle its counter out, and force hazard damage on most of the enemy's team. This also allows it to very easily win Calm Mind wars, since it can just Roar its enemy out when it feels the enemy has acquired too many boosts. Regardless of the move choice, this thing makes for a pretty cool Kyogre counter and stall breaker, only taking a good chunk from Ice Beam and being able to very easily set up on most of stall's pokemon. In addition, Kyogre's Ice Beam will fail to 2HKO after a Calm Mind.

    [​IMG]
    Latias @ Soul Dew*** Shrang's / Firecape's set
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 52 HP / 204 SpA / 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Recover
    - Psyshock / Thunder

    Latias actually doesn't need that much bulk at all. Soul Dew puts your Special Defense at 444 uninvested, which is equivalent to a fully EVed, +ve nature base 152 SpD (basically Ho-oh's Special Defense, fully invested). 52 HP / 204 SpA / 252 Spe Timid guarantees the OHKO on Palkia with Dragon Pulse regardless of Stealth Rock, and with your Special Defense, you can even tank a Scarf Draco Meteor to the face and not give a shit.

    Psyshock is a great option now, since you can more easily defeat Calm Minders, but Thunder is still excellent to smite Kyogre and Manaphy pretty much immediately, as well as hitting stuff like Scizor and (soon) Genesect for a lot of damage, thinking you're Pursuit or U-turn fodder.
  2. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    Latias with Soul Dew is an absolute beast. I like this set:
    [​IMG]
    Latias @ Soul Dew
    Not sure what to put for the EVs yet..
    Timid Nature (+Spe, -Atk)
    -Dragon Pulse
    -Substitute
    -Calm Mind
    -Recover

    With it, you can beat Ferrothorn one-on-one, out stalling all of it's Gyro Balls. I usually haven't found a real need for another attacking option in my time playing DW Ubers.
  3. polop

    polop
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    I like how the set baits one of its counters and then proceeds to troll it XD. For EVs I think the maximizing HP and Speed works well since you at best speed tie with other Latias and you always outspeed Terrakion and can pummel it with a Dragon Pulse as it comes in for the 2HKO. The only problem I see what this though, is Gyro Ball's power boosting off the charts D:, but running min speed isn't an option at all so...

    I think you could also substitute substitute to check other counters. For example, Toxic + Seismic toss Blissey / Chansey can currently beat the set, but if you ran refresh or Safegurad then both would be... not exactly happy. Updating the OP with the set :P, not going to put the slashitis in it yet until someone comments about it though, since I don't believe I have enough experience with the current meta to justify ANYTHING.

    Anyone else find Latias to be a good fit for the time it was released in DW?

    EDIT: THE BELOW POST / Furai's post HAS CONVINCED ME TO SLASH REFRESH ON TO THE SET, if manaphy or any other user has objections speak now!
  4. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    I really, REALLY like Refresh on Latias. Most of the time I don't even need Thunder; Kyogre is hit fairly hard by Dragon Pulse already. Stalling Toxic users, such as Chansey, and making them setup bait, is really fantastic. Scizor is going to rise again, definitely!

    Oh, and these EVs are fine. You outspeed Terrakion and still tank Specs Ogre well, just be cautious of Ice Beam.
  5. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    You can run a little Special Attack too, I've found that 144 HP / 112 SAtk works well (Not sure where I got those Ev's though..) You can still tank Kyogre with it just fine.

    I've also seen Psyshock run over Sub/Refresh, but I really like being able to block status. I think the Sub / Refresh decision boils down to what you want to beat; Sub handles Ferrothorn well and you can block revenge kills, but Refresh lets you beat any Chansey one-on-one, and it's also nice because some Kyogre, Groudon etc run Thunder Wave.
  6. Dusknight

    Dusknight

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    I think I invented a good EV distrubution to Latias, here it go:

    Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 48 SDef / 208 Spd
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Recover
    - Refresh

    252 Hp for more bulkness to Latias. 48 SpD to keep countering Specs Ogre and add a little more special bulk. And, finally, 208 Spd with a Calm Nature to outspeed non Scarfers with a maximum Spd of 306 (90 Spd based Pokémon). Like Meloetta, Max Spd Specs Ogre, Groudon, Ho-Oh, Dialga, etc. Also, an EV Spread of 252 Hp / 8 SpD / 248 with a Calm Nature can be used to outspeed Max Spd Rayquaza, but you lose some special bulk, though.
  7. polop

    polop
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    I remember that spread from last gen, lets you tank a Lustrous Orb Spacial Rend from Palkia Manaphy IIRC.

    I think Latias likes the ability to outspeed Palkia, Terrakion, Garchomp, and other things though, especially since it can OHKO Palkia back but idk. Again the spread issue is complicated. Sadly, it still gets 2HKOed by Specs Ice Beam so I'm not sure if the greater bulk matters. Sadly the same issue could be brought up for the 252 HP spread so maybe last gen's spread still is the most efficent. TRULY THE PROPER SPREAD CAN ONLY BE BROUGHT ABOUT WITH DISCUSSION?

    I think you could also run status or even Surf and Hidden Power Fire over that slot to beat Genesect / Scizor, but I don't know if those roles better belong to Latios. Psyshock sounds like an interesting option though, it gives it the ability to win all Calm Mind wars, unless its with Darkceus or Steelceus of course. Roar might also work for the same reason.
  8. Faint

    Faint Valar morghulis
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    I do not see any reason to run more than 192 speed with a Timid nature on Latias. Getting the jump on Garchomp was all you needed in Gen IV and I don't see that changing. I see no reason in running max speed just to beat Terrakion and the like when you should have better things to take that on. Nearly 72% of Terrakion are running Choice Scarf compared to the 10% running Choice Band.

    Latias should be used as Latios.
  9. Vincent

    Vincent

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    I agree with Faint about just enough Speed to outspeed Garchomp, and i agree with the others about few Sp Atk EVs because the damage from Dragon Pulse is already enough (and Calm Mind will do the job for you), but i have one consideration about bulkness:

    You guys dump the rest of EVs into HP, but since Latias wasn't meant to be taking physical hits from the powerful Ubers (well, maybe she can do this a tiny bit), so what about dumping those EVs into Special Defense?

    With Soul Dew 1.5x boost she will be more bulkness against special attackers rather than she had dumped all of it into HP. She could then even switch into SpecsOgre Ice Beam easier.
  10. Manaphy

    Manaphy

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    You may be right, but I never found too much of a problem with running max Speed, it is nice for opposing Lati@s, Arceus that don't run Max Speed etc. You can easily get away with running enough to beat Chomp if you want to run something with more bulk/power.
  11. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    10% is still a chance, Faint. Not to mention the rising amount of Swords Dance Terrakion in Ubers. I'm not opposing what you say at all; Latias can really take advantage of that bulk, but it's not like it changes much then 252 HP / 252 Spe.
  12. shrang

    shrang Reaction to Ubers ladder
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    Latias actually doesn't need that much bulk at all. Soul Dew puts your Special Defense at 444 uninvested, which is equivalent to a fully EVed, +ve nature base 152 SpD (basically Ho-oh's Special Defense, fully invested). I think firecape's spread in Burn All (yes, this is a LONG time ago) probably works the best: 52 HP / 204 SpA / 252 Spe Timid. With 204 SpA, you guarantee the OHKO on Palkia with Dragon Pulse regardless of Stealth Rock, and with your Special Defense, you can even tank a Scarf Draco Meteor to the face and not give a shit.

    So yeah, don't bother running a lot of bulk on Latias. She has enough of it already. If you want to run that much bulk to take Kyogre, you may as well go back and run stupid stuff like Gastrodon and Grass Arceus. It is her ability to go offensive while being ridiculously bulky that makes Latias so good.

    As for a moveset, what she ran in DPP is still the best:

    Latias @ Soul Dew
    Ability: Levitate
    EVs: 52 HP / 204 SpA / 252 Spe
    Nature: Timid
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Recover
    - Psyshock / Thunder

    Psyshock is a great option now, since you can more easily defeat Calm Minders, but Thunder is still excellent to smite Kyogre and Manaphy pretty much immediately, as well as hitting stuff like Scizor and (soon) Genesect for a lot of damage, thinking you're Pursuit or U-turn fodder.
  13. polop

    polop
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    With Soul Dew 1.5x boost she will be more bulkness against special attackers rather than she had dumped all of it into HP. She could then even switch into SpecsOgre Ice Beam easier.[/QUOTE]

    Actually.... even if she invests all her Hp and Special Defense into those stats she will still cleanly get 2HKOed after Stealth Rock. That and investing in HP allows her to more easily survive Pursuits if she can predict them.

    Other random important stuff released in that tier, Keldeo, Espeon, Jumpluff (without sun), Gengar, and Lugia. Ok some of the stuff isn't that common, but I also don't think that the EVs placed in Special Attack or Special Defense might be making that big of a difference. Max Speed still might be the best way but again we don't know so you may be right :P. I'm also agreeing with Furai's post so this comment / post is a bit biased :(, sorry.

    Thats an interesting EV Spread and set, but I think it differentiates from the one on the OP a lot. It doesn't focus on luring in counters and eliminating them rather having Latias focus on what she does best. Henceforth, I'm placing this one in the OP while leaving Manaphy's up there too. Also whenever I see the above set, I picture Latias running a more defensive role in comparison to a offensive one but as you said...

    So basically its role is to be an offensive pivot around Specs Ogre that hits harder then Scarfkia? If that is the case the EV spread is perfect, but again I wanted to to be like Grassceus and Gastrodon lol :P. Also lol at how Specs Ogre is a perfect partner for this since Latias practically guarantees the removal of Palkia and Latias (this one if Latias began setting up earlier)since Psyshock makes it able to beat opposing Latias.
  14. kd24

    kd24 lemme just whip my dick out and slam it on the table
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    set im currently using:

    Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 208 HP / 108 SDef / 192 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Recover
    - Calm Mind
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Roar

    latias is such a dominant pokemon that it forces a lot of switch-outs, so roar only makes that much more sense. roar early game with hazards, cm sweep late-game. this has performed well so far.
  15. polop

    polop
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    That's actually an interesting way to use roar (thinks of making Dragon Tail Palkia now O.o). What suprises me even more, is its potential in Calm Mind wars though. Anybody that has gone against the annoying Roar Steelceus knows what a pain it is. Seeing a Latias use her levitate to avoid toxic spikes and also do that sounds interesting. The EV Spread also works better then the one on the current spread, so... I shall slash roar on Manaphy's set (again if anybody has issues with this speak now) and add that as an alternate spread. I think max HP and Max speed still deserves to stay as the main on the set, and I shall also change the name of Manaphy's set to stall breaker since it looks like thats what the set's turning into.
  16. Bossness

    Bossness

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    After playing some matches, I realized that latias doesnt get a chance to beat Kyogre easily. Everytime there is a Kyogre vs Latias faceoff, Kyogre just switches to Ferrothorn who latias cant touch. Substitute sets dont do well either - it gets blown away by multiscale Lugia. I do agree that Latias can wall Kyogre all day but it keeps switching out which is why it isnt as effective as it was last generation.
    EDIT: @ZetoTarken below: About the Scizor last gen and Ferrothorn this gen - Scizor could be hit with thunder, Ferrothorn just walls it. Thing is, my team doesnt have a problem with Ferrothorn - its just that as long as Ferrothorn is there it keeps coming in for free and sets up hazards. I just want to say the situation will most likely not be like this: Latias switches in and takes a Water Spout. Kyogre wont say - an eye for an eye, hit me with thunder!
  17. polop

    polop
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    It's actually been the other way with my matches. Substitute blocks ferrotroll's leech seed, and for some reason they're all running Leech Seed, Stealth Rock , Spikes, Protect, so it just gives me a lot of set up time xD. I came across one with gyro ball and it was a bit problematic since it was a mind game of recover vs. Substitute since sub blocks leech seed and recover, thankfully most haven't been running Gyro Ball so yeah.

    Also if you wanna troll ferrotroll you could use Roar, which is a way more successful then I thought it would be. Forcing Ferrothorn to take an extra 25% + 6.25% of hazard damage is nice, and you only have to roar twice for it to die, not to mention that it forces damage on other things and is nice for luring out scarfers that want to outrage on you :P
  18. firecape

    firecape This is the end...
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    How is forcing it to switch out not considered a win? That's kind of the goal because no player with half a brain is going to just sacrifice their Kyogre by keeping it in against its (arguably) #1 counter thats not useless outside of checking Kyogre. As for damaging it, if you are forcing it to switch out, thats where entry hazards come in. Also, you have 5 team members to deal with Ferrothorn. Predict the switch to a Ferrothorn and act accordingly if it happens "everytime". Heck, if you Calm Mind on the switch you can do 54.5% - 64.8% to max/max+ Ferrothorn with Hidden Power Fire in the Rain with 204 SpA EVs. Given Leftovers and Leech Seed don't make this ideal, but, once again, you have 5 other teammates. I don't really see how "switching out" makes it less effective because its not like switching is something new to fifth generation...

    I am really pumped for Soul Dew Latias because it just checks so many things. I like to think of it as a Blissey (or similar tank...) that doesn't completely destroy your offensive momentum and threatens tons of Pokemon with its SpA and Speed. Its Speed is often overlooked, but it allows Latias to outspeed all Dragons in the tier save for Dragon Arceus and opposing Lati@s, which means once its in, its Dragon-type weakness doesn't condemn it. This is why I prefer a bit more of an offensive Latias set heavy on Speed/SpA EVs while her natural bulk + Soul Dew + Recover lets her tank what she needs to tank.

    Also to people saying invest in SpD over HP it is really a negligible difference.

    Specs Modest Water Spout vs 252/0 Latias: 48.9% - 57.7%
    Specs Modest Water Spout vs 0/252 Latias: 48.8% - 57.5%

    For that .2% you get quite a bit more physical bulk. Obviously this was more of a demonstration than a practical example. I may be wrong so if you can find some calcs where SpD investment > equivalent HP investment by a significant amount feel free to share them.
  19. ZetoTarken

    ZetoTarken

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    Didn't stop Latias last gen where it was Scizor instead of Ferrothorn and it was 'threatens to murder Latias' instead of 'who can't touch it'. That's kind of like saying Scarf Palkia is bad because when you use Thunder or Spacial Rend Ferrothorn comes and sets up hazards. As Fireburn somewhat implied, if your team isn't built to somehow deal with Ferrothorn setting up hazards then your problem isn't Latias, its the rest of your team.
  20. mtr

    mtr

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    Yay now I can stop using Grass Arceus as the only CMer who can check Kyogre.
  21. Vincent

    Vincent

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    Hum, my mistake then, i thought the difference would be much bigger than that.
  22. Donkey

    Donkey

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    I run this Latias set, with different evs from the one in this thread:

    Latias (F) @ Soul Dew
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 252 HP / 64 Def / 192 Spd
    Timid Nature (+Spd, -Atk)
    - Calm Mind
    - Psyshock
    - Dragon Pulse
    - Recover

    The HP and defense investment helps Latias survive priority, and Psyshock 2hkos Arceus-Steel at +6 which is nifty, even with no investment.

    A few general checks to Latias: arc steel, arc dark, arc ghost, arc rock, mold breaker exca, payback/toxic forry, ho-oh, lugia, physical scarfer, scizor, tyranitar, extremespeed/shadow sneak, mix palkia

    Just felt like throwing in my two cents.
  23. polop

    polop
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    Actually I think Roar is a bit superior to Psyshock in general, it basically beats every thing trying to start a Calm Mind war (INCLUDING DARKCEUS), while taking advantage of the enormous switch-in's Latias causes. Psyshock, in my opinion, would only be superior when utilizing a more offensively inclined set, like Shrang's, since it then can take full advantage of the greater Special Attack stat, and its better to beat the blobs. On a stall breaking set refresh is perferred for beating the blobs though so... yeah. I MAY BE WRONG THOUGH so don't start bandwagoning. The spread is nice though but again the max speed issue...

    tl;dr(well its a bit long...) Psyshock isn't exactly the best thing for stall breaker Latias due to the fact its outclassed by Refresh (if you want to beat Blissey) and Roar (for the Calm Mind wars and it beats Darkceus). Although it CAN exploit being a hybrid of the two which is why I SHALL add it to the OP if it gets additional support. Although the hybrid is better suited to Shrang's / Firecape's set due to the greater Special Attack investment.

    I addressed comments to checks in bold, since most were shaky checks. ALSO HOW COULD you forget Ferrothorn :(, oh well it was a cool list in general :D.
  24. Donkey

    Donkey

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    probably should have clarified they all CAN check latias depending on the set. Some checks are better than others obviously, and idk about the Psyshock evs since it still rapes ho-oh and chansey without much investment.
  25. zzzzzzzzzzz

    zzzzzzzzzzz

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    I like Latias + Forretress, Forretress always gets a hazard if Ferrothorn gets one, meaning that Ferrothorn isn't doing much. And if they try to stop Latias with Outrage, well do it, I go to Forretress and Rapid Spin, Toxic Spikes, bring in Ho-oh/Lugia/something that benefits from TS removed from play. So how do you beat Latias with Thunder without Ferrothorn and Outrage?

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