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OU Latias

Discussion in 'Preliminary Pokedex' started by Magcargo, Feb 8, 2014.

  1. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    Taken over from Treecko.
    QC Approvals 3/3: Labyrinthine, alexwofl, Spirit
    GP Approvals 2/2: GatoDelFuego, V0x

    [​IMG]
    BW Analysis

    Overview
    ########
    Blessed with excellent Speed, typing, and bulk, Latias is a true force to be reckoned with in the metagame. Due to its unique typing and access to reliable recovery, Latias is able to consistently check various Pokemon in the OU metagame, including Mega Charizard Y, Keldeo, and Rotom-W. Latias also sports a decent amount of offensive prowess which, while nowhere near the level of that of Latios, is still enough to deal a significant amount of damage to relatively bulky Pokemon such as Rotom-W. Due to the changed mechanics of Defog, Latias has now gained a new niche in the metagame as an offensive Defog user, facing competition from only Latios in this regard.

    Unfortunately, Latias has several flaws preventing it from being a top-tier threat. Due to its only above-average power and coverage, Latias is fairly easy to wall and cannot break through common Pursuit trappers such as Bisharp, Aegislash, Tyranitar, and Scizor. Latias's typing, while blessing it with several key resistances, plagues it with weaknesses to common Fairy-, Dark-, Ice-, Ghost-, and Bug-type moves. Perhaps Latias's greatest flaw is that it faces an enormous amount of competition with Latios, as Latios's greater offensive presence is generally preferred over Latias's greater bulk. Luckily, Latias's access to Healing Wish allows it to support sweepers such as Mega Pinsir much better than Latios can, giving Latias a small niche. Overall, Latias should only be used on teams that appreciate Healing Wish support. Otherwise, you're much better off using Latios.

    Offensive Defog
    ########
    name: Offensive Defog
    move 1: Defog
    move 2: Draco Meteor
    move 3: Healing Wish
    move 4: Thunderbolt / Psyshock
    ability: Levitate
    item: Life Orb
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    Moves
    ========
    Latias's high bulk and power make it an excellent Defog user on offensive teams. While Latios may appear to be a better candidate in this role due to its higher attacking stats, Latias differentiates itself with its greater bulk and Healing Wish. Draco Meteor serves as Latias's primary STAB attack due to its high Base Power and excellent neutral coverage. Healing Wish allows Latias to completely heal a weakened teammate once its job of removing entry hazards is done.

    In the last slot, Thunderbolt is the best option as it hits key threats such as Mandibuzz, Azumarill, Skarmory, and Mega Charizard-Y for super effective damage. Psyshock can also be used, as it hits Mega Venusaur for super effective damage, while also hitting Fighting-types such as Terrakion and Conkeldurr. Hidden Power Fighting and Hidden Power Fire can be used as coverage moves, as the former allows Latias to OHKO Bisharp and deal a significant amount of damage to Tyranitar while the latter deals heavy damage to Ferrothorn and Mega Scizor. However, both of these moves are fairly weak and do not hit any other notable targets.

    Set Details
    ========
    Life Orb is used to give Latias a power boost to compensate for its only above-average Special Attack. This set also aims to apply offensive pressure when the situation calls for it, so maximized Special Attack and Speed with a Timid nature are required.

    Usage Tips
    ========
    The utility of Defog and Healing Wish allow Latias to function well at any point in the match. If a potential Pursuit trapper such as Bisharp or Aegislash is on the opponent's team, then Latias should attempt to double switch into a Pokemon that can threaten the Pursuit trapper or have these Pokemon eliminated before switching in. If Latias is using Healing Wish, then it can play more recklessly against Pursuit users by healing a weakened teammate after its job of removing entry hazards is done. Also, Latias should not attempt to use Defog if the opponent has a Pokemon with the ability Defiant.

    If Latias is up against a Pursuit trapper or is at low health, it should generally use Healing Wish to heal weakened sweepers such as Mega Pinsir or Dragonite. Latias should also use Healing Wish late-game to heal a potentially weakened sweeper, allowing them to sweep with few, if any, repercussions.

    Team Options
    ========
    Pokemon that appreciate entry hazards being removed and Healing Wish's recovery are generally great partners for Latias. Examples include Talonflame, Dragonite, Mega Pinsir, Mega Charizard X, Mega Charizard Y, Mega Gyarados, and Belly Drum Azumarill. Heatran is a great offensive partner, as it can defeat Fairy- and Steel-types that generally give Latias trouble. Heatran also appreciates Healing Wish support due to its lack of reliable recovery. Scizor is a great partner due it having excellent defensive synergy with Latias and being able to provide it momentum with U-turn. Fighting-types such as Keldeo and Lucario can defeat common Pursuit users that give Latias trouble as well as pressure Steel-types such as Scizor and Ferrothorn, making them solid partners.

    Other Options
    ########
    Latias has many other viable options due to its excellent movepool. Roost can be used to allow Latias to more consistently check Pokemon such as Keldeo and Rotom-W, as well as replenish any health lost from Life Orb recoil. However, Latias loses its primary niche over Latios by using this move. Leftovers can be used to increase Latias's longevity, but it also makes Latias fairly weak and more prone to Pursuit users. A specially defensive set can be used, as Latias's excellent Special Defense allows it to check important threats such as Mega Charizard Y and Keldeo, and it has access to support moves such as Wish and Defog. However, a specially defensive set is more vulnerable to Pursuit users and threats such as Garchomp and Mega Charizard X, making it a mediocre option in most scenarios. A dual screens set can be used, as Latias's high Speed allows it to set up Light Screen and Reflect fairly quickly and then give a safe switch-in to sweepers such as Dragonite with Healing Wish. However, Defog cripples this strategy and a Dual Screens set is generally outclassed by Deoxys-S. Calm Mind can be used to turn Latias into a devastating sweeper; however, Calm Mind Latias is generally less effective than it was in the past due to the introduction of Fairy-types and a new slew of defensive threats.

    Checks & Counters
    ########

    **Pursuit Trappers**: Tyranitar, Aegislash, Bisharp, and Scizor take little damage from a majority of Latias's moves due to their typing and can deal a significant amount of damage to, if not OHKO, Latias with Pursuit.

    **Steel-types**: Aegislash is an excellent counter to Latias, as it can threaten Latias with Shadow Ball and Pursuit trap it. Bisharp and Scizor are also very good checks for similar reasons, although they must watch out for the rare Hidden Power Fighting and Fire, respectively. In addition, Bisharp can deter Latias from using Defog due to Defiant giving it a +2 Attack boost. Mega Mawile resists Latias's STAB moves and can either revenge kill it with Sucker Punch or set up a free Swords Dance as Latias switches out. Klefki also resists Latias's STAB moves and can 2HKO it with Play Rough, allowing Klefki to set up Spikes later in the match. Heatran can either use Taunt on Latias, preventing it from using Defog and Healing Wish, or directly 2HKO it with a Choice Specs-boosted Flash Cannon.

    **Fairy-types**: Mega Gardevoir, Sylveon, and Clefable are immune to Draco Meteor and take little damage from Psyshock. Mega Gardevoir and Sylveon can deal a significant amount of damage to Latias with Hyper Voice, whereas Clefable can either set up Calm Mind on Latias or deal a significant amount of damage to it with Moonblast.

    **Revenge Killers**: Talonflame, Scizor, Aegislash, Bisharp, and Mamoswine can all revenge kill a weakened Latias with their respective priority moves. Mega Aerodactyl, Mega Absol, Tornadus-T, and Greninja can all outspeed and KO weakened Latias. Choice Scarf users such as Gardevoir, Garchomp, and Kyurem-B can OHKO Latias with their respective STAB moves.
    Last edited by a moderator: May 23, 2014
  2. Unowninator

    Unowninator

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    How about Wish? Is Wish any good for this thing?
  3. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    ok you wanted an opinion on defensive defog so:

    move 1: Defog
    move 2: Roost
    move 3: Dragon Pulse / Draco Meteor
    move 4: Psyshock

    Pretty simple. Psyshock is alone because it's mandatory with MVenu around (Latias is good at damaging it, which is a pretty significant trait. I just run max HP / max Spe, but someone like Super Mario Bro probably has a better spread for it.

    the last slot of cm should be psyshock / reflect, imo. psyshock is really good, but reflect is nice for setting up and generally checking physical threats. hp fire and tbolt just don't strike me as compelling options, but reflect is cool (i've had success with it). put refresh and substitute in moves.
  4. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    I don't have any fancy spreads to offer this time; max HP / max Speed is fine.
  5. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    Made the necessary edits. Thanks.
    Wish will only be receiving an OO mention, as Latias is a somewhat mediocre Wish passer due to her low HP stat and inferior defensive typing compared to other wish passers such as Umbreon and Sylveon.
  6. gamer boy

    gamer boy

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    I'm not QC, but may I suggest a few things:
    • remove any mentions of Draco Meteor in the defensive Defog set. A defensive pokemon doesn't really enjoy the psuedo-recoil if its not going to be dealing huge amounts of damage to make up for it.
    • Remove Reflect from the Calm Mind set and add a dual screens set instead.
    • Add Reflect Type to set comments for the Calm Mind set as it can turn Latias into a monster on the defensive side for its ability to go from a weak type defensively against the opponent to completely and utterly walling it (eg. if you were to copy Bisharp's typing, you could completely wall it provided it doesn't carry Brick Break or Low Kick). However, mention that the reason it is not in the main set is due to its unreliability.
    • Elaborate a bit on the checks and counters. While it is still in skeleton form, it is still necessary for everyone to understand why each respective pokemon checks or counters Latias.
  7. Jukain

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    Draco is good because it still kinda packs a punch; DPulse is rather weak.

    Reflect on CM is not meant to support the team, it is meant to help Latias set up. Screens is kinda outclassed by the Deoxys formes; Latios is better anyways because Memento > Healing Wish.

    Also, the checks and counters are fine, there is no reason to elaborate now.

    ---

    That said, Roost > Healing Wish on the first set. Recovery is so useful for Latias; Healing Wish is good, but not better than Roost.

    And Psyshock should be slashed alone, it's too important for MVenu.
  8. gamer boy

    gamer boy

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    tbh, both Healing Wish and Memento have their own niche, and I never said that the dual screen set HAD to run Healing Wish, but it would be a good move on such a set.
  9. gamer boy

    gamer boy

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    I've just noticed this, but you should remove mentions of Genesect from the analysis sinse it was banned.
  10. Magnemite

    Magnemite MUH CONTRARY!!!!!!!!
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    All right, so the new strategy dex is going up very soon and there are several Pokemon, including this one, that do not currently have completed analyses. Magcargo 2, if you could please try to make this look presentable within the next day, that would be helpful. Please contact user darkie once you've made it look presentable (by that I mean "acceptable to be on-site") and refer to and update this pirate pad: https://www.piratepad.ca/p/dex_skeletons

    This needs to be done by tomorrow afternoon (GMT -6), so make sure you get it done! If you can't make it look presentable in the next day, please say so in the pirate pad so someone else can make a quick skeleton of it. Thanks!
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  11. BurningMan

    BurningMan fueled by beer

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    When it comes to Healing Wish/ Roost explain that Roost is generally better on bulkier teams or if you really need Latias through the whole game to check certain threats that nothing else can on your team and that Healing Move is the prefered choice for HO teams because now you can afford to get a sweeper crippled just to punch some holes, but get it back late game to sweep the remains of the team.

    Healing Wish also isn't the main draw when it comes to Latias vs. Latios, Latias higher bulk is just generally more useful to act as an offensive pivot compared to Latios higher firepower.

    Also does Defensive Defog really play so different that it warrants to get its own set? IMO it isn't that great and i think you could just mention that more defensive Teams might prefer the bulkier EV spread with lefties that can use Dragon Pulse over DM (i am not really a fan of DPulse since without investment and Lo its is piss weak and can easiely turn you into a set-up opportunity, but i guess not being forced out obviously also has it uses).
  12. Mew

    Mew

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    I think Thunder Wave should get a mention, because Bisharp switches in on this thing a lot expecting Defog. Works with other switchins too though. This allows for free turns and switches.

    EDIT: To further elaborate, Thunder Wave should be an option over Roost. This works especially well on offensively oriented teams which focus on putting offensive pressure on the opponent. With an LO attached, Draco Meteor does 58.7 - 69.5% damage to it too, so you're looking at a +2 paralyzed Bisharp with 20% - 30% HP left, and hazards are gone. This is if it manages to not be fully paralyzed.

    Another plus about Thunder Wave is crippling Magic Guard Clefable, who tends to switch in on Latias as well. Counts for any Fairy-type Pokemon for that matter.
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
  13. Super Mario Bro

    Super Mario Bro All we ever look for

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    With regards to the Calm Mind set: I can't imagine that 44 measly EVs in Defense would be more valuable than tying other Lati@s, and outpacing everything that sits at 108 base speed (Keldeo, Terrakion, etc.).
    Last edited: Mar 9, 2014
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  14. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    Thunderbolt should definitely be kept as a slash on the last slot. Beating Mega Venusaur is nice, but not a must at all, as Latias isn't a sweeper or a wallbreaker, and there are plenty of Pokemon able to take care of Mega Venusaur. On the other hand, Thunderbolt lets Latias OHKO Belly Drum Azumarill after BD + Sitrus Berry, which is great as Latias is one of the best and few offensive checks to it. It also lets Latias 2HKO or do some meaningful damage to Bisharp, Skarmory, Mandibuzz, Mega Mawile, and Scizor, all of which are very important and common Pokemon. So, while i don't care about which move gets slashed first, Thunderbolt should definitely stay slashed with Psyshock.
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  15. Taehl

    Taehl

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    You should probably mention the reasons to use Latias over Latios (especially on the offensive sets).
  16. Jukain

    Jukain .leaf
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    Thunderbolt should have first slash.
  17. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    Thunderbolt already has the first slash on the offensive Defog set.
  18. Jukain

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    I meant, on defensive.
  19. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I agree with Thunderbolt being the first slash on the last slot of the defensive set.

    Also, i think that both Reflect and Psyshock should go to 'Moves'. Reflect doesn't really help against the Pokemon that trouble Latias, such as any Aegislash, Bisharp (can just boost and demolish you), Heatran, Tyranitar (which can still beat you most of the time thanks to the Defense drops from Crunch), Azumarill (CB does 80% minimum after Reflect and BD can set up and OHKO you), Mega Mawile, Sylveon (will eventually crit), Unaware Clefable, Mega Gardevoir, SD Mega Scizor, and Skarmory.

    As for Psyshock, Thunderbolt outclasses it most of the time. The only target against which it is useful is Sylveon, and that's it. Everything else is either hit harder by Thunderbolt, or beats you anyway (Mega Gardevoir). You beat Keldeo and Mega Venusaur anyway, so why bother?

    So, basically, Thunderbolt is by far the best option for the last slot, and the only one that should there.

    Also, add HP Fire to 'Moves' on the CM set, as it hits some important targets, namely Mega Mawile, Mega Scizor, Bisharp, Ferrothorn, and Skarmory.
  20. Jukain

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    Rescinding my approval for CM as a set. It was okay when I tried it, but it just blows now. Also uh alexwolf...HP Fire hitting Mega Mawile and Bisharp? You know, Pokemon that can KO with priority Sucker Punches? Not seeing the relevance. And how the hell are you beating Mega Venu sans Psyshock. And Psyshock does shit to Sylveon.

    Please remove the Draco slash on defensive Latias. It's way too weak; defensive Latias much prefers a more consistent STAB attack that doesn't force it out right away.
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  21. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    HP Fire is meant to hit Bisharp and Mega Mawile on the switch. And you are beating Mega Venusaur without Psyshock by boosting enough to get past it, while the best it can do is use Leech Seed or Sludge Bomb, both of which can be healed by Roost.
  22. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    ok I have an issue with this analysis thus far. The first set is excellent, it should remain the way it is. Gonna be blunt here, the next two sets are complete and utter trash in xy ou. Defensive Latias is literally asking to get trapped, and with the amount of Pursuiters in xy ou, you will get trapped. The set should be dropped. CM Latias is also very bad atm, as it also is asking for Pursuit trapping. Once Mega Latias comes out, I expect CM Mega Latias to be a great set; however, atm, cm latias is terrible and also shouldn't be written here.

    Overall the point is that no one ever runs anything except for offensive defog latias ever, which is why it should be the only set in the analysis. Put CM in other options, as it still has a very small niche merit.

    That is all.
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  23. alexwolf

    alexwolf Fear the D
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    I am fine with that.
  24. Magcargo

    Magcargo That's Onii-sama to you
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    Okay, removed Defensive Defog and Calm Mind.
  25. Alter

    Alter lab report
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    In the team options section, I'd recommending other offensive Pokemon that appreciate the lack of Stealth Rock, such as Mega Pinsir and Mega Charizard (both X and Y). I also don't think it's worth mentioning Bisharp in both Steel- and Dark-type areas of the Checks and Counters section. Just remember to emphasise how both Bisharp and Tyranitar can trap Latias with Pursuit in that section. You can probably also remove Earthquake from OO as it's pretty garbage (and I don't really fancy Choice Scarf but I'll leave that up to you).

    If you make these changes, consider this analysis

    [​IMG]
    QC APPROVED 1/3

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