Latios (Pre-Soul Dew Analysis) (QC 0 / 2)


Latios (Ubers Analysis)

[SET]
name: Choice Specs
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Thunder / Grass Knot
move 3: Surf / Hidden Power Fire / Dragon Pulse
move 4: Psyshock / Trick
item: Choice Specs
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

[Set Comments]


  • Has fairly good coverage, but requires weather support
    • Does not really care either way (rain vs. sun), but the moves need to match the team's dominant weather

  • Draco Meteor hits like a truck, and Latios is the fastest user
    • It is far less powerful than base 150 group, but the speed difference really does help a lot.

  • Thunder nails Kyogre, Manaphy, Ho-Oh, and Lugia, but requires rain support to use
    • Grass Knot is good replacement if the team prefers sunlight, and hits Goudon and Kyogre hard, but must be used sparingly, as much of the tier resists it, and it lacks the looming threat of Paralysis as a deterrent to set up.
  • Surf recieves a psuedo STAB in the rain, and Hidden Power Fire gets boosted to a usable level in the sun, so go with the teams dominant weather
    • Surf hits Steel-types like Scizor and Forretress incredibly hard in the rain, OHKOing both, but Hidden Power Fire incinerates Steel-types, Ferrothorn, in particular, but requires sunlight from Groudon. Dragon Pulse is also an option for times when Draco Meteor's SpA drop or accuracy are unappealing, and can sort of clean up game with a boost from Choice Specs.
  • The last slot is between Psyshock and Trick. Psyshock, when backed by STAB and Choice Specs, can break down common switch ins, such as Ho-Oh and Chansey, and requires no weather support to use; Trick, on the other hand, can still cripple the blobs, but also messes with defensive pokemon like Ferrothorn, and can make setting something up later easier.
    • Trick can be used, but be really careful what you trick.
    • Psyshock is also an option if your team is weak to Terrakion, and can still break Blissey, though Tyranitar will eat you alive if he catches you on it, and Hydregon can mess with you with Draco Meteor / U-turn
[Additional Coments]

  • EVs and nature are obvious
  • Specs gives it a lot of power
  • Tyranitar is still public enemy number one, but is thankfully much less common in Ubers than OU
  • Ferrothorn walls the set if it lacks Hidden Power Fire, but hates Trick
  • The blobs wall most of the set and only fear Psyshock / Trick
  • Steel-type Arceus doesn't care about you.
  • Not too much else can readily switch in, though it is fairly easy to revenge kill after Draco Meteor is used
  • Giratina-O can ignore the Speed difference and do 59.6% minimum with Shadow Sneak
  • Choice Scarf-wielding Dragon-types, such as Palkia and Hydregon, can revenge you.
[SET]
name: Dual Screens
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Memento
move 4: Draco Meteor / Recover
item: Light Clay
nature : Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

[Set Comments]

  • Pretty straightforward Dual Screener, with access to Memento to differentiate it from the crowd
  • Light Screen and Reflect cut damage taken in half, which greatly aids set-up sweepers, such as Extremekiller Arceus, Rock Polish Groudon, and Double Dance Terrakion
  • Draco Meteor lets Latios do damage if he needs to, and still packs a decent punch, even with no EV investment, but Recover can give Latios a chance to set up more than once
[Additional Comments]

  • Wobbuffet can make setting up both Latios and the intended sweeper much easier, but beware of type stacking.
  • DD / SD Rayquaza, SD / CM Arceus / RP Groudon / Double Dance Terrakion / Lucario / CM Kyogre / CM Mewtwo / NP Darkrai / FC Ho-Oh / FC Reshiram /
    • ^Notable sweepers to support
  • Not as fearful of Tyranitar, because if Reflect is up, Latios can live a Crunch while getting Light Screen up, and Memento before Tyranitar can stop you. Setting up on a Choice-locked -2 / -2 Tyranitar under dual screens is cake.
  • Hates Taunt-users and Darkrai
  • Wobbuffet can revenge the Choice sets with ease


[Other Options]

  • An offensive Calm Mind with a Life Orb can work, and is nearly as powerful as it was in gen 4, but Mewtwo generally overshadows it
  • A Modest Nature is an option on the Choice Sets for additional power, but the Speed Drop hurts.
  • Choice Scarf
  • Not too much else, as everything needed was mentioned
 
I think that Choice Specs would probably be the most viable options as Latios already outspeeds most of the threats in Uber.
 

shrang

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I think that Choice Specs would probably be the most viable options as Latios already outspeeds most of the threats in Uber.
I agree with this. Latios' greatest niche is that "I'm the fastest spammer of Specs Draco Meteor in the game". Calm Mind is really lacking power without Soul Dew as well. Personally, I think the sets should look something like this:

[SET]
name: Choice
move 1: Draco Meteor
move 2: Thunder / Grass Knot
move 3: Surf / Hidden Power Fire / Dragon Pulse
move 4: Trick / Psyshock
item: Choice Specs / Choice Scarf
nature: Timid
evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

and:

[SET]
name: Dual Screens
move 1: Reflect
move 2: Light Screen
move 3: Memento
move 4: Draco Meteor / Dragon Pulse
item: Light Clay
nature: Timid
evs: 252 HP / 4 SpA / 252 Spe
 

hamiltonion

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Why would you EVER use Dual Screens on Latios when its sister Latias does it 10X better thanks to better bulk ?

Specs set might work though, not too sure.
 

Fireburn

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Scarf set seems outclassed by Hydreigon; he is just as powerful but also has U-turn, no Pursuit weakness, better typing, and still has the ability to outspeed DD Ray. I guess it has Trick, but that's not good enough IMO. What does Latios outspeed Hydreigon does not?

Latios is also outclassed by Mewtwo in the offensive CM department without Soul Dew.

Dual Screens still works thanks to Memento.

Not sure about Specs, I will let other QC members weigh in.
 
Honestly, I don't see why Scarf Latios is outclassed. It outspeeds Scarf Palkia, Salamance with a DD (I know it isn't common but still), scarf chomp and scarf Hydregion (without that damn speed tie). Yes Psychic is a pretty bad typing for ubers but it does offer a resistance to fighting (which is much more common this gen even in ubers) and has more special defense (which is better to have then physical defense). It also has trick which is minor but is still useful to cripple certain fat pink blobs and speaking of these blobs it also has psyshock and you cannot argue that this isn't a useful move. Being able to revenge some CM Arceus and other Calm minders is pretty huge and best of all it actually stands a chance against Chansey and Blissey. I'm not saying it's better but it's definitely not outclassed.
 

shrang

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What does Latios outspeed Hydreigon does not?
Scarf Palkia, Scarf Chomp, DD Mence (don't know who uses that any more but whatever), Scarf Terrakion, Scarf Jirachi (Probably losing anyway). You also have the option of running Modest Scarf if you only want to outspeed DD Ray as well, I guess.
 
alex67 said:
it actually stands a chance against Chansey and Blissey. I'm not saying it's better but it's definitely not outclassed.
Latios Psyshock to Calm Blissey = 39.7% - 46.9% You are not even close to 2HKOing Blissey, especially when it can Protect. Chansey takes less obviously. Hydreigon has Head Smash to OHKO Ho-Oh who actually survives 2 Thunder from Latios at full health LOL, and Outrage which is stronger and has no immunities.

How can Latios revenge some Calm Mind Arceus? Can you name a few? Latios's Psychock is actually rather weak without Soul Dew or boost. Also Arceus takes 25.2% - 30% from Latios's Psychock. Are you revenge killing with that <--- LOL

Even Bold Fighting Arceus survives 2 hits from Latios's Psychock while a +1 Ice Beam 2HKOes you at worst. In fact I think Hydreigon can revenge kill some Arceus formes better than Latios ever can. Sure Latios has some chance of revenging SD Dragon Arceus, but so can Hydreigon who is also bulkier physically. Against Ghost Arceus? Hydreigon has Dark Pulse to at least 2HKO an unboosted Ghost Arceus, Latios has no chance.

alex67 said:
Yes Psychic is a pretty bad typing for ubers but it does offer a resistance to fighting (which is much more common this gen even in ubers)
So which Fighting-type is common in Ubers? Terrakion isn't even considered common. Lucario died out, Blaziken still isn't popular at the moment (has potential to shine though), Fighting Arceus? Heracross is worse, because no one uses it anymore, although it can OHKO a +6 Mewtwo 85% of the time with Megahorn which is awesome.

I agree with Fireburn in this case, Offensive Calm Minder sucks compare to Mewtwo. For Specs, it might be useful but Specs Palkia and Dialga give stiff competition. Latios's main advantage is 2HKOing Blissey with Psychock reliably. Palkia has little hope due to Protect, and Hydro Pump's iffy hit rate while Dialga just fails to muscle pass it. Keep in mind, outside of the Speed, immunity to Spikes, Palkia and Dialga are superior with bulk, more POWER, and versatility. Also Specs Latios dies to Steels easily because Hidden Power Fire is not only weak, but you lost the Speed tie ( will rarely see another Latios but whatever)

Hydreigon is also immune to Wobbuffet thanks to U-turn and Dark-typing and has Fire Blast to roast Steels. Also, Scarf Latios begs Tyranitar to Pursuit it to hell.
 
Skeleton is up.

The Specs and Scarf were merged, because they are pretty much the same thing, and mentions of item differences were worked in. I think Specs should be the primary slash, but I don't really care either way. The Scarf set is definitely vible, as revenging even Choice Scarf users reliably is pretty important; think of something else that can confidently come in and OHKO a full health Scarf Palkia without taking a hit. The list is like... Garchomp, who sucks, and another lati@s.

The offensive CM set is whatever, I just OO'd it

Dual Screener is pretty simple

EDIT: And thanks for the input but dear god let me get a word in! XD
 

shrang

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For Specs, it might be useful but Specs Palkia and Dialga give stiff competition. Latios's main advantage is 2HKOing Blissey with Psychock reliably.
I'm quite sure Latios' main advantages are 1) its Speed, 2) Levitate (which is quite big in a Spikes filled meta these days) and then 3) Psychock. Latios can revenge SD Garchomp even if it runs Haban Berry, something other dragons actually find it a bit hard to do.
 
Ok, just to address a few things:

A pursuit weakness isn't nearly as bad on Latios in Ubers as it is in OU. Actual Pursuit-users are pretty rare.

Speed is HUGE. Latios has the ability to revenge revenge killers, that's pretty notable. Also, depending on the team, trick might be more important than U-turn, like one weak to Chansey; Latios has a nifty Fighting-type resistance, which Hydreigon lacks, too.

It can revenge Fighting-type arceus, which Hydregion can not.

It can also revenge Hydregion, Rayquaza, Garchomp, Palkia, and Terrakion, all of whom Hydregon can not (Not counting pushing speed ties).
 
Tyranitar is still public enemy number one, but is thankfully much less common in Ubers than OU
Actualy, Specs Latios is a pretty good lure for Tyranitar.

Specs Grass Knot against 252 HP - 200 SDef Tyranitar in Sand : 53.5% - 63.4%
Specs Grass Knot against 252 HP - 252 SDef Careful Tyranitar in Sand : 47% - 55.4%
Specs Surf against 252 HP Tyranitar in Sand : 51.5% - 60.9%

So, Specs Grass Knot 2HKOs even the bulkiest Tyranitar with SR support, and less bulky spreads are 2HKOd by Surf. Also 0/0 Latios can live a 40 BP Pursuit from 56 Atk EV Choice Band Tyranitar. Yeah, it's easy for Tyranitar to checkmate a -2 Latios, but who spams Draco Meteor with Latios after seeing Tyranitar on team preview ?

Anyway I think the Scarf set is also pretty good, most teams don't expect a base 110 Scarfer. Rock Polish Groudon or Swift Swim Kindgra are often EV'd to beat Scarf Garchomp or Palkia. Adamant Blaziken is outrunned at +2.

Trick seems better than Psyshock to me, even on Specs Latios. Ho-Oh is already covered by Thunder or Surf and Trick is much more crippling to Chansey. It seems like there are very few uses for Psyshock while Trick is a high risk, very high reward option.
 
Latios' main advantages are 1) its Speed, 2) Levitate (which is quite big in a Spikes filled meta these days) and then 3) Psychock. Latios can revenge SD Garchomp even if it runs Haban Berry, something other dragons actually find it a bit hard to do.
What Latios outspeeds, Palkia doesn't? Opposing Palkia, Garchomp(who went extinct anyway) and non Scarf Terrakion( A rare case). Levitate is a big advantage though.

Who still runs Haban Berry Garchomp in Ubers? Also Modest Scarf Dialga's Draco Meteor can smash Garchomp through Haban Berry.

giggity69 said:
It can also revenge Hydregion, Rayquaza, Garchomp, Palkia, and Terrakion, all of whom Hydregon can not
Hydreigon outspeeds Rayquaza too.

Stopping Fighting Arceus is actually better done by Latias who is bulkier. Fighting Arceus survives 2 Psychocks with Bold nature. Grass Knot lures in Steel-types even more and makes Ho-Oh laugh. It 2HKOes Tyranitar and allows things like Rayquaza, Ho-Oh, Ferrothorn to eat you.
 

Fireburn

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Get rid of the Scarf set, its outclassed by Palkia (who is stronger and revenges most of the same things), and Hydreigon (who gets U-turn, isn't Wobb bait, and isn't weak to Pursuit). If you really, really need to revenge Scarf Palkia, Garchomp says hello, and its not like Scarf Palkia is the hardest thing in the world to tank. (And no, Garchomp does not suck)

Latios's Fighting-type resistance is largely irrelevant when Hydreigon boasts the ability to switch in on Darkrai's and Mewtwo's STAB moves.

Something that worries me about the Specs set though is Arceus. Any max HP non-Dragon Arceus takes but 77% maximum from Latios's Timid Specs DM, meaning it can swap it even if SR + 1 Spikes layer is up, take the hit most of the time, Recover off the damage, then proceed to set up in your face. Arceus is also immune to Trick and takes nothing from Psyshock unless Arceus is Fighting-type. Latios also doesn't have the wall-breaking power Palkia and Reshiram do, it has to rely on HP Fire to kill Steel-types (and Ferrothorn in the rain just completely has a field day with Latios and Steel Arceus just doesn't care about Latios at all) and the Speed advantage is only really useful for opposing Palkia and non-Scarfed Garchomp.

Fighting Arceus also isn't OHKOed by Psyshock btw.

I'm really not convinced about Specs Latios tbh. Levitate and Trick seems like the only real reasons to use it...
 
Latios Psyshock to Calm Blissey = 39.7% - 46.9% You are not even close to 2HKOing Blissey, especially when it can Protect. Chansey takes less obviously. Hydreigon has Head Smash to OHKO Ho-Oh who actually survives 2 Thunder from Latios at full health LOL, and Outrage which is stronger and has no immunities.
Oh sorry about this lol I'm so used to using Mewtwo and Psycho Break. Despite this Latios still has Trick which could easily allow Latios to get past/cripple it for the rest of the game. Oh yes Latios gets Thunder!
How can Latios revenge some Calm Mind Arceus? Can you name a few? Latios's Psychock is actually rather weak without Soul Dew or boost. Also Arceus takes 25.2% - 30% from Latios's Psychock. Are you revenge killing with that <--- LOL Ok fine fuck Psyshock. Trick can completley cripple it though and Latios has the Special Defense to take a hit or so.

Even Bold Fighting Arceus survives 2 hits from Latios's Psychock while a +1 Ice Beam 2HKOes you at worst. I'd like to know who runs Bold on Arceus lol. I can see why you might but almost everyone uses Timid/Jolly for the speed.
 

hamiltonion

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Arceus is immune to Trick so Latios cannot do ANYTHING at all to it except fire off weak attacks which can be easily healed off.
 
Arceus is immune to Trick so Latios cannot do ANYTHING at all to it except fire off weak attacks which can be easily healed off.
Normal-type is not immune, as it has to hold a type plate.

@Fireburn: I will take the scarf mentions off when I get home, and yeah... arceus is a boss and can set up on a lot of nonsense. It HAS to recover to survive the 2HKO, so its pretty easy to just switch on the Recover to something more capable of dealing with it, though.


The Specs is pretty cool just because its FAST, but I agree that the 150 group is more daunting to switch into / set up on due to sheer power. Latios really does miss his soul dew, but Specs go a bit of the way toward replacing it, offensively, at least.

EDIT: Scarf mentions removed from Specs set and put in OO
 

Nexus

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moving since this hasn't been touched in months, if the author wants ti work on it, contact one of the mods to move it back.
 

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