1. New to the forums? Check out our Mentorship Program!
    Our mentors will answer your questions and help you become a part of the community!
  2. Welcome to Smogon Forums! Please take a minute to read the rules.

Latios (Ubers Analysis) QC (3/3) GP (3/2) ready for upload

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by polop, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    unnecessary stuff (open)
    yes I copied Superimp's skelly -_-, will get up skelly somewhere later today

    EDIT: The skeleton's up now.
    EDIT 2: GP HELP! Is it Latios' or Latios's or something out of the ordinary <- yes I realize that is gramatically wrong.
    EDIT 3: YES ITS A LONG OVERVIEW
    EDIT 4: GP DO YOUR STUFF
    EDIT 5: NOTE TO ANY QC MEMBERS, I HAVE ADDED GENESECT INTO THE LIST OF COUNTERS
    EDIT 6: DONE

    Quality Control: trickroom, Barry4ever, Poppy, Furai, Shrang, ... 3/3
    Grammar Police: 3/2, 1 amateur check by yonko, 1 by Sirndpt, 1 by SuperJOCKE, 1 by Oglemi, Harsha, GS
    [​IMG]
    The forgotten one
    skeleton (open)

    [Overview]
    • The more offensive of the Lati twins
    • Flavor
    • Soul Dew = Specs without the drawbacks and Sp Def boost
    • Turns him into one of the strongest sweepers / wall breakers ever
    • Levitate is cool = immunity to spikes
    • Typing is OK offensively also, sucks defensively, BUT HAS QUITE A FEW NOTICEABLE RESISTANCES (grass, water, fire, electric, fighting, psychic + ground immunity)
    • Hard to fit on teams
    • Non-existent defense
    • Latias covers defensive sets better, has trouble distinguishing himself
    • Offensive Movepool sucks for an uber, no seriously, WHERE IS THAT FIRE BLAST? Has to rely on HP Fire and Surf <- Ew
    • Ironically decent support set, still can run old Dual Screen Memento set
    [SET]
    Name: Calm Mind
    Move 1: Calm Mind
    Move 2: Psyshock
    Move 3: Dragon Pulse
    Move 4: Surf / Thunder / Recover
    Item: Soul Dew
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Reasons why it deserves to be on site:
    • Insanely powerful Calm Mind user
    • Ditto can't revenge it due to Soul Dew
    • Very nice initial Special Defense gets boosted along the way
    • Will hit like a nuke later
    • Only can compete with Mewtwo, and bulk + levitate + soul dew diffrentiate it a lot.
    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Calm Mind boosts your Special Defense and Special Attack
    • Dragon Pulse and Psyshock get STAB, latter allows it to make Chansey and Blissey cry.
    • Last move is your option to hit steels, and yeah its weather dependent (OH NO). HP fire eliminates Ferro, Forry, and Skarmory instantly, but Heatran may annoy you. Surf fixes the Heatran problem but now Ferro annoys you. If you think your insanely powerful dragon moves can dent steels you can go for recover
    • If your desperate, you can use one of the moves in the fourth slot over Psyshock, but this should ONLY BE CONSIDERED WHEN USING RECOVER. Two weather reliant moves that are boosted by opposing weathers on a team thats not thunder for Kyogre? No... Just no...
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • If your using Recover make sure your NOT using an inferior Latias
    • Likes hazards and hates outrages / anything that can use a scarf and physical moves.
    • Forry and Ferro = :D for stomaching outrages and providing SR + SPIKES, wobba for scarfers and free set-up.
    • Doesn't need it but likes Dual Screens to help set-up, also safeguards weak defense for a while.
    • It beats Scarfkia and other scarfed things that spam draco meteors... don't switch it out of those, it can live and maim.
    • Tyranitar is a terrible dinosaur, get something to weaken it (for surf range) or kill it
    • GET WEATHER TO BOOST YOUR WEAK SURF AND MAKE THUNDER HIT
    • Kyogre threatens ttar and can break walls / metagame with specs spout
      [*}HP FIRE SUCKS DUE TO SPEED DROP
    • GRASS (k)not is a fun move, to trip up ttar, groundceus, groudon, etc.
    [SET]
    Name: All-out Special Attacker <- drama in the slashes egad.
    Move 1: Draco Meteor
    Move 2: Thunder / Grass Knot
    Move 3: Surf / Hidden Power Fire
    Move 4: Psyshock / Recover / Dragon Pulse
    Item: Soul Dew
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe
    Why it deserves to be on site:
    • Continuation of what was once one of the most feared cannons in existence / Last gen was good this gen it works too
    • Destroys almost everything with a Draco Meteor, Blissey can't switch into it due to being 2HKOed by Psyshock, Chansey's in the same boat if Rocks are up (which they almost always are)
    • Can your Mewtwo do this with the same level of bulK? NO. Also that Draco Meteor's power is............ oh and Mewtwo doesn't get a STAB base 140 Dragon-type move with good coverage does he?
    [SET COMMENTS]
    • Draco Meteor = nuke
    • Psyshock = Blissey troll
    • 3rd moveslot is tricky, GK maims Ttar, groundceus, rockceus, and OHKOes Groudon, pretty nice non-weather dependent move overall. Thunder hits steels for nice damage, also dents Lugia, Ho-oh, and Kyogre without having to resort to Draco Meteor.
    • Dragon Pulse is nice when you want to do things like have a dialga come in, hit with a pulse, then meteor.
    • 4th moveslot options are what Latios has to hit Steels, HP FIRE SUCKS due to speed drop. Recover is also there
    • Recover is recovery.
    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]
    • weather support to boost the power or the WEAK HP FIRE AND SURF
    • Everything from first AC except no Dual Screens mention, oh and DON'T STAY ON DRACO METEORS :P
    • A Psyshock used on a Blissey after Draco Meteor's power drop does pitiful damage, HOLD YOUR HERDS OF METEORS UNTIL THE PINK THING IS GONE.
    ---------------------------------------------------Do I have to re-write Dual Screens? I'll repost the old one here. QC, tell me if I have to rewrite it our anything -_-.
    [SET]
    name: Dual Screens
    move 1: Light Screen
    move 2: Reflect
    move 3: Draco Meteor / Roost
    move 4: Memento
    item: Light Clay
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 12 SpD / 244 Spe <- THAT IS PROBABLY THE ONLY THING I AM CHANGING


    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Latios's Dragon typing, ability, high base Speed, and access to Memento, enable him to distinguish himself as an exceptionally talented dual screen user. Light Screen and Reflect enable Latios to cushion himself, and his team from the enemies attacks for eight turns. With Memento in its arsenal Latios can kill himself and lower the attacking stats of an enemy even further, providing a free switch to another team mate. The third moveslot choice is dependent on what the team needs. Latios can very easily set up screens more then once in the match, and Roost enables him to heal itself to perform that job very well. However; if Latios is intended to be used only to cripple an opponent, it may be beneficial to heavily damage them with a Draco Meteor before lowering their attacking stats. In addition, Draco Meteor prevents Latios from being destroyed by Taunt and enabling it to prevent Rayquaza from setting up.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Since Latios's main purpose is to help a teammate sweep, it is a good idea to pair him up with team mates that can raise their stats, such as Dragon Dance Rayquaza or Shell Smash Cloyster. In particular, Latios enjoys Mew support. Mew is capable of easily accumulating many boosts to pass to a teammate, that can further use the protection provided by dual screens to pave way for a bulky sweep.</p>

    <p>Latios can run moves besides Draco Meteor, or make use of a healing move for team support. Thunder Wave enables Latios to further cripple his enemies cutting their speed and providing a handy paralysis chance that can be useful to get an extra boost. Tailwind enables Latios to double the speed of his team, and when being used in conjunction with Memento, Latios has little trouble getting a team mate in to abuse the boosts to defense and speed. Finally, Latios can run Dragon Pulse as an option for more reliable STAB than Draco Meteor. However, Dragon Pulse is fairly weak, incapable of breaking even the Substitutes of a 252 HP Ho-oh or Lugia.</p>

    <p>Latios's current spread is designed so that he can avoid a 2HKO on average from Timid Scarf Palkia's Spacial Rend and outspeed all non-scarf Terrakion. If one feels that Terrakion is simply too uncommon and wishes to increase Latios's bulk, the spread of 252 HP / 192 Spe / 64 SpD can be used to outspeed all non-scarf Garchomp. If you feel that Garchomp is also too rare to deserve EV investment, then the spread of 252 HP/ 160 SpD / 96 Spe enables Latios to outspeed all base 90s while retaining a fairly high amount of special bulk.</p>

    So the changes:
    Lati twins widespread = 252 for speed instead. Mentioning Smash Pass.

    [SET]
    Name: Special Dragon Dance
    Move 1: Dragon Dance
    Move 2: Dragon Pulse
    Move 3: Thunder / Grass Knot
    Move 4: Psyshock / Surf / Hidden Power Fire
    Item: Soul Dew
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]
    • DD boosts your speed so that nothing outside choice scarf darky, skymin, mewtwo, and arceus outspeed you.
    • Potent late game sweeper
    • Dragon Pulse is reliable STAB, hits surprisingly hard after soul dew boost.
    • Thunder and Grass Knot lets you destroy Kyogre, GK lets you also murder Groudon but Thunder keep the ability to hit steels.
    • Psyshock = the way and only way you get past chansey
    • Surf also lets you get past steels, has decent power in rain.
    • HP fire is the only way your getting past Ferrothorn

    [Additional Comments]
    • Likes hazards.
    • weather support = necessary
    • Don't switch it in early game, its idea is to sweep late game
    • Wobba helps set up a dd
    • Something to take out ferrothorn if your not running HP fire.
    [Other Options]
    • Hidden Power Fighting for covering basically all steel-types and ttar, not on set since its just THAT WEAK
    • Grass Knot is an OK choice for trolling Groudon, Groundceus, and ttar

    [Checks and Counters]
    • Chansey, if rocks aren't up, it can switch in and avoid the 2HKO from Psyshock assuming its unboosted
    • Ho-oh can take a hit and go kamikazee with a Brave Bird, IF ROCKS ARE OFF THE FIELD
    • Ferrothorn and Heatran, depending on whetehr HP Fire or Surf.
    • TTar will stomach all hits barring HP Fighting and can pursuit trap / Crunch
    • Scizor can stomach a Draco and do the same, can't take any hits that aren't dragon though, has U-turn and Bullet Punch (to pick off weakened ones) though.
    • Scarf Garchomp and Kyurem-B checks it
    • Kabutops and Kingdra running Outrage in rain
    • If Multiscale is active, Lugia can take a hit and status it.
    • Steelceus and Rockceus (BOTH MUST HAVE ROAR UNLESS THEY WANT TO BE FACE PALMED BY PSYSHOCK) in sand
    • Stall two is ironically its best check, can Light Screen to take all attacks, Taunt to prevent Calm Mind, and WoW it to watch it slowly die. Also can use Psystrike to strike past the weak defense stat. It can't switch in though. (it baits a crit nevermind, and it can't have both, gets OHKOed by Draco Meteor)
    • Shedinja lol if no HP Fire + hazards (actually forget this its not even uber viable)
    • Wobba after Latios Draco Meteors -> dead Latios
    • Jirachi's twave + Iron head hax is too strong for Latios, also Jirachi doesn't really care about most of its moves and resists STAB, avoids OHKO by HP Fire.
    • Ghostceus + Shadow Claw -> attack that hits defense -> dead Latios and Ghostceus + Judgment -> 2HKO on Latios
    • Darkceus lols at Draco Meteor, can start a CM war which it will win.
    • Scarfed base 150 Dragons (like Dialga and Palkia) can revenge Latios with a Draco Meteor if it hasn't gotten a Calm Mind yet.


    [Overview]

    <p>When looking at Latios's disappointing base stats, particularly his subpar bulk and below-average Special Attack, one might question why he should be used in Ubers. Latios's typing grants him weaknesses to the Dragon-, Ice-, Ghost-, and Bug-type attacks rampant in the metagame, and only offer resistances to Grass-, Electric-, Water-, Fire-, Psychic-, Fighting-, and Ground-type attacks in return; his STABs also have little offensive synergy. He lacks the ability to hit Steel-types hard, and he is forced to use the weather-reliant Surf, Hidden Power Fire, and Thunder for coverage.</p>

    <p>Then what is it that makes him one of the most deadly sweepers in the game? The answer is simple: Soul Dew. The boost Soul Dew provides to Latios's mediocre stats allows him to smite his fellow dragons with ease. Raising Latios's bulk to respectable levels and boosting his Special Attack, Soul Dew allows him to take full advantage of his Speed, ability, and resistances and rival the titans that terrorize the Ubers metagame. However, Soul Dew will not make Latios perfect; his movepool remains barren, and his physical defense feeble. He also faces competition from Latias, who boasts better Defense and who too can benefit from Soul Dew. Not all is lost for Latios though. By taking advantage of his colossal Special Attack and an ironically distinguished support movepool, Latios can remind all of his forgotten power.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Psyshock
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Surf / Thunder / Roost
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Latios's respectable Special Defense, huge Speed, and monstrous Special Attack allows him to effectively run a Calm Mind set. Calm Mind is the crux of the set; by powering up his already high Special Attack while bolstering his defenses, it makes him less prone to being revenge killed. Psyshock and Dragon Pulse form the bread-and-butter of the set, and allow Latios to essentially go mixed, while also providing Latios with a way to severely dent the pink blobs that might try to stop his sweep.</p>

    <p>However, if you feel that Psyshock provides little coverage and your team has a way around Blissey and Chansey, you can opt to use either Surf, Thunder, or Roost in the second moveslot. In the rain, Surf brings down Excadrill, Heatran, and Steel Arceus. Thunder hits Steel-types neutrally, while also giving Latios a handy 30% chance to instantly cripple a Pokemon for the rest of the match. However, if you feel that neutral coverage on Steel-types is unnecessary, then you can opt to use Roost which lengthens Latios's longevity and easily allows him to gain more than one Calm Mind boost.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This Latios set appreciates Stealth Rock and Spikes support, as said entry hazards can push some of his enemies into OHKO range of one of his moves. Ferrothorn and Forretress can easily set up the coveted hazards, while also being able to switch into the one move Latios loathes: Outrage. In exchange, Latios synergizes nicely with these entry hazard layers, as he resists Fire-type moves aimed at Ferrothorn or Forretress.</p>

    <p>Latios also enjoys dual screen and Wobbuffet support. Light Screen and Reflect patch up his weak defenses, allow him to set up multiple Calm Mind boosts, and make him less prone to being revenge killed. Courtesy of its access to Encore and Shadow Tag, Wobbuffet can virtually guarantee that Latios will always be able to safely set up one Calm Mind. Furthermore, Wobbuffet can also provide invaluable trap support for Latios by instantly removing its revenge killers with Counter and Mirror Coat.</p>

    <p>Lastly, Latios pairs well with Kyogre. Not only does Kyogre power up Surf, increase Thunder's accuracy, and maim Ferrothorn and Chansey, it can also effectively combat Tyranitar, who can otherwise trap and Pursuit Latios to his doom. If one wants to avoid this scenario without running Kyogre support, then Grass Knot is an option in the fourth slot over other moves to 2HKO Tyranitar in sand. However, this is not recommended as Latios will struggle to damage Steel-types.</p>

    [SET]
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Thunder / Grass Knot
    move 3: Surf / Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Psyshock / Roost / Dragon Pulse
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This Latios variant attempts to take advantage of the free Calm Mind boost offered by Soul Dew to instantly bombard the enemy with powerful special attacks. Draco Meteor's power is enormous, and boasts the ability to OHKO virtually everything that doesn't resist it not named Blissey or Chansey. Thunder allows Latios to ruin Kyogre and Manaphy, while also providing decent coverage, but its reliance on rain might render it useless on certain teams. Grass Knot is a suitable alternative; while it is incapable of dealing damage to Manaphy and enemy Steel-types, it can take an enormous chunk of health out of opposing Groudon, Kyogre, and Tyranitar, regardless of the weather.</p>

    <p>The third move allows Latios to hit Steel-types: Hidden Power Fire maims enemy Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Excadrill in the sun at the cost of losing the Speed tie with other Latios and Latias. On the other hand, Surf keeps Latios's ability to Speed tie with these Pokemon in exchange for leaving him at the mercy of enemy Ferrothorn. The last slot lets Latios use a STAB move that doesn't instantly cripple him. Dragon Pulse is a strong, reliable STAB, while Psyshock gives Latios the ability to damage Blissey and Chansey. However, if you feel that an extra STAB move is unnecessary, you can opt to use Roost to heighten Latios's longevity.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Latios finds Groudon and Kyogre to be great teammates. Not only do they make Latios's Hidden Power Fire and Surf more destructive, respectively, they provide fabulous offensive and defensive synergy as well. Kyogre can crush any Ferrothorn, Chansey, and Tyranitar that might stand in the way of Latios with a powerful Choice Specs Water Spout, while Latios is easily capable of destroying the few Pokemon that can switch into the dreaded Water Spout—namely Giratina, Latias, and Gastrodon—with a STAB and Soul Dew-boosted Draco Meteor. Groudon too makes short work of the aforementioned threats with Fire Punch and Earthquake, and can also provide Latios with Stealth Rock support to help it beat down Multiscale Lugia and Regenerator Ho-Oh.</p>

    <p>Latios appreciates Spikes and Toxic Spikes support as well. Ferrothorn and Forretress are wonderful partners thanks to their defensive synergy with Latios and ability to instantly litter the field with entry hazards. However, these partners can also become Latios's worst enemies. If Latios doesn't pack Hidden Power Fire, Ferrothorn will have little trouble absorbing Latios's attacks. It can then set up Spikes and recover all the damage it takes with Leech Seed. Chansey is an even more terrifying foe than Ferrothorn, capable of tanking Psyshock, as it is not even 4HKOed by Psyshock after Latios has crippled himself with Draco Meteor. Latios's aversion to these Pokemon makes Ho-Oh and Blaziken very nice partners, as they boast the ability to severely dent, if not OHKO, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Chansey with their STAB moves. In return, Latios can punch holes in Giratina and Lugia so that Blaziken and Ho-Oh can more easily sweep the enemy's team later.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Dual Screens
    move 1: Light Screen
    move 2: Reflect
    move 3: Draco Meteor / Roost
    move 4: Memento
    item: Light Clay
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Latios's typing, ability, high base Speed, and access to Memento enable him to distinguish himself as an exceptionally talented dual screen user. Light Screen and Reflect enable Latios to cushion both himself and his team from the enemies' attacks for eight turns. With Memento in his arsenal, Latios can sacrifice himself to lower the offensive stats of an enemy even further, allowing a teammate a free switch-in. The third moveslot choice depends on what the team needs. If Latios's only goal is to cripple an opponent, Draco Meteor lets him do heavy damage before lowering its attacking stats. In addition, Draco Meteor prevents Latios from being destroyed by Taunt and stops Rayquaza from setting up on him. Alternatively, Latios can easily set up screens more than once a match, and Roost enables him to heal himself to do so even more reliably.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The listed EV spread allows Latios to avoid a 2HKO on average from Timid Choice Scarf Palkia's Spacial Rend after Light Screen, and Speed tie with other Latios and Latias. If one feels that these Pokemon are simply too uncommon and wishes to increase Latios's bulk, a spread of 252 HP / 64 SpD / 192 Spe lets it outrun all non-Choice Scarf Garchomp, while 252 HP/ 160 SpD / 96 Spe enables it to outspeed all base 90s while retaining a fairly high amount of special bulk.</p>

    <p>Latios can run moves besides Draco Meteor, or use a healing move for team support. Thunder Wave enables Latios to further cripple his enemies by cutting their Speed and the chance of full paralysis can even help his teammates get an extra boost. Tailwind enables Latios to double the Speed of his team. In particular, it can be used in conjunction with Memento for a teammate to take advantage of the boosts to both bulk and Speed. Finally, Latios can run Dragon Pulse as an option for more reliable STAB. However, Dragon Pulse is fairly weak and incapable of breaking even the Substitutes of a 252 / 0 Ho-Oh or Lugia.</p>

    <p>As Latios's main purpose is to help a teammate sweep, it is a good idea to pair him up with stat-boosting teammates, such as Dragon Dance Rayquaza and Shell Smash Cloyster. In particular, Latios enjoys support from Mew and Gorebyss. They are capable of easily accumulating many boosts to pass to a teammate, who can further use the protection provided by dual screens to pave the way for a bulky sweep.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Dragon Pulse
    move 3: Thunder / Grass Knot
    move 4: Psyshock / Surf / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Soul Dew
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Using Dragon Dance on a specially based Latios might sound absurd, but it provides a useful Speed boost that allows him to outrun and KO almost everything in the metagame. Latios's unique typing is an advantage in this case, as it allows him to take advantage of a stray Surf or Fire Blast to set up with Dragon Dance. These unique traits allow Latios to become a potent cleaner more than capable of striking fear into all teams late-game.</p>

    <p>Dragon Pulse is strong, reliable STAB that will dent everything barring Chansey and Steel-types after Stealth Rock. Thunder assuages Latios's issues with Steel-types in the rain, and provides nice coverage to complement Dragon Pulse. Grass Knot, while incapable of hurting Steel-types, maims Tyranitar, Groudon, and Ground Arceus, scoring OHKOes on the latter two Pokemon and 2HKOes on Tyranitar. The last slot further improves Latios's coverage. With Psyshock, Latios gains the ability to muscle past Chansey, as the move will 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Psyshock, however, leaves Latios vulnerable to both Excadrill and Ferrothorn, two Pokemon that have little trouble stomaching the rest of Latios's attacks. Surf easily takes care of Excadrill, OHKOing it in rain, while Hidden Power Fire will OHKO Ferrothorn and Excadrill in sun. These moves also have nice coverage alongside Thunder and Grass Knot, respectively.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Latios should only switch in late-game, by which time the opposition should be sufficiently weakened. Therefore, it enjoys entry hazard support; Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes can all weaken enemies so that Latios can more easily sweep late-game. Ferrothorn and Forretress again excel at this role not only for their ability to set up entry hazards, but also for their ability to handily wear down the enemy via Leech Seed, Toxic, and Pain Split. These Pokemon also lure out Fire-type moves that Latios can switch in on and use to set up a free Dragon Dance on.</p>

    <p>The level of prediction it takes to set up is quite high. If you feel uneasy switching Latios into threatening Pokemon or just want to guarantee a setup opportunity, you can use Wobbuffet. Wobbuffet's access to Encore and Shadow Tag eases Latios's setup, and allows him to setup on otherwise dangerous Pokemon, such as Dialga locked into Stealth Rock or Palkia locked into Surf.</p>

    <p>Weather support is near-mandatory when using Latios, as his only options for hitting Steel-types rely on the weather for sufficient power. For example, a Hidden Power Fire in rainy weather will fail to 2HKO Ferrothorn and Excadrill, while a Surf in sunny weather will fail to 3HKO Heatran. If you simply cannot afford to put Kyogre or Groudon on your team, then it would be beneficial to pack extra insurance against these Pokemon. Magnezone can serve as insurance for removing these Pokemon from the match due to its unique typing and access to Magnet Pull.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Latios lacks any noteworthy options to use outside of those already listed. If you have an enormous aversion to Tyranitar and wish to maul his body around the battlefield like the fate of Hector, you can run Hidden Power Fighting. As it can also hit Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Heatran, regardless of weather, it is not completely situational. It's not recommended, though, as it is fairly weak even against targets it hits super effectively.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Like many other Ubers Pokemon, Latios has no true "counter". There are, however, some that stand out from the pack. Dark Arceus, Chansey, Ho-Oh, and Lugia are not 2HKOed by any of unboosted Latios's moves if Stealth Rock is not up. Dark Arceus stands out from this list of checks because it can also OHKO Latios with a STAB, super effective Payback, or set up with Calm Mind.</p>

    <p>You can also look to taking advantage of Latios's reliance on weather to hit enemy Steel-types. For example, Ferrothorn and Heatran are all capable of walling a Latios in detrimental weather because Latios cannot 3HKO Heatran with a sun-weakened Surf or 2HKO Ferrothorn with a rain-weakened Hidden Power Fire. Excadrill distinguishes itself from the other Steel-types by being able to actually remove Latios from the match via Mold Breaker Earthquake if Latios is in the wrong weather. Jirachi does a similar job, but doesn't really care about which weather it is in, as it can avoid an OHKO from sun-boosted Hidden Power Fire and annoy Latios with the combination of Thunder Wave and Iron Head.</p>

    <p>If you find yourself unable to pack any of these Steel-types on a team, then you might as well resort to revenge killing Latios. While Latios's Speed is high, it is susceptible to priority. Therefore, strong priority users, such as Extreme Killer Arceus, Scizor, and Giratina-O can finish off weakened Latios. In rain, Kingdra can outspeed and KO Latios with its STAB moves; Kabutops can do the same, although it needs Stealth Rock damage. Additionally, although Latios can normally cushion special attacks thanks to Soul Dew, he is hardly impervious to them in any way; strong special attacks can still plow through his sky-high Special Defense. Choice Scarf Dialga and Palkia can revenge kill Latios that lack a Calm Mind or Light Screen boost with STAB Draco Meteor.</p>

    <p>Ghost, Rock, and Steel Arceus, while not nearly as effective as Dark Arceus, are all capable of stomaching incoming Draco Meteors, and can easily set up Calm Mind or outright KO Latios with their strong physical STABs. They must be wary of Latios utilizing dual screens or opposing Calm Mind Latios though, as they will be setup bait instead. Calm Mind Latios can be taken down by adding Roar to any of Calm Mind Arceus's movesets.</p>

    <p>All Latios variants share a crippling weakness to Dark-type moves, Pursuit in particular. Should you be able to switch a Pursuit user into Latios, it will be able to checkmate Latios. Tyranitar and Scizor distinguish themselves with their ability to not only threaten Latios with their STAB, but also to tank a Draco Meteor with ease.</p>

    <p>Lastly, Wobbuffet can easily annoy every Latios variant that exists. It turns the Calm Mind, Dragon Dance, and dual screens sets into setup bait, and boasts the ability to revenge kill Latios that have already used their STAB Draco Meteor.</p>
  2. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,002
    QC APPROVED 1/3

    The unique typing gives Latios useful resistances to Grass, Water, Fire, Electric, Fighting, Psychic and Ground immune. It's not all that bad.

    I believe Thunder is a better move on the last slot over HP Fire. HP Fire makes you underspeed Latias and opposing Latios. Not worth it in my opinion, Ferrothorn will still survive it in rain easily anyway. Forretress is 2HKOed by Thunder or Surf in rain.

    Make a Grass Knot mention to OHKO Groudon, 2HKO Tyranitar and almost OHKO Ground Arceus regardless of weather.

    If Blissey comes in on Draco Meteor, then Latios's Psyshock will do pathetic damage next turn.

    Dual Screen still works the same but change it to max Speed.

    Jirachi beats you with Thunder Wave + Iron Head. Hidden Power Fire does not come close to OHKOing it. Scarf Dragon-types such as Dialga still revenge kill you with Draco Meteor unless you are boosted.

    Timid Dialga vs Latios 104% - 123.2%

    Dark Arceus still beats you easily as it is immune to Psyshock while Judgment 2HKOes in return. Draco Meteor can be recovered off. Ghost Arceus 2HKOes you with Judgment or OHKO with Shadow Claw.
  3. barry4ever

    barry4ever
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Oct 20, 2009
    Messages:
    877
    Mostly agreeing with this except I'd say move HP Fire to last slash on 4th move slot on the special attacker set and remove it entirely from the CM set and drop it to AC completely. Also remember to mention the disadvantage of using Hp Fire, namely you can no longer speed tie with other latias / latios now. I propose keeping it on the All Out Attacker set since, getting walled by one of the most common pokes in the tier is lame.

    Name: All-out Special Attacker
    Move 1: Draco Meteor
    Move 2: Psyshock
    Move 3: Dragon Pulse / Grass Knot / Thunder
    Move 4: Surf / Recover / HP Fire

    This one should be like or some variation of that. The Grass Knot and Thunder slashes are tricky :O. I added in the Grass Knot slash since taking down Groudon / Rockceus / Groundceus without having to DM is a good alternative imo. Remember to emphasize that Latios's move slot options depend mostly on the team it is running run, like rain / sun.

    QC Approved 2/3
  4. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    Mentioned in Overview
    Mentioned Thunder in CM set, copied Barry4ever's set.

    Mentioned in OO for CM, slashed onto all-out attacker set
    Noted
    See Listed changes
    Noted
    Modest Scarf Dialga vs Latios @ 1 Calm Mind (76.16% - 90.07%), mentioned warning in checks and counters.
    Noted.

    I don't know if its a good thing if the Calm Mind set gets walled by Ferrothorn either... but at +1 it beats Latias anyway, still removed. Any other opinions on HP Fire QC members?
    I shifted the set to the one you stated, Grass Knot > Thunder since Grass Knot isn't weather dependent, and it maims Tyranitar.
  5. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,324
    Thunder > Surf for pretty much every Latios set, IMO. You can hit Steel-types while still absolutely destroying Kyogre with it.

    Also, like barry touched on, the all-out attacking set should probably reflect what weather you're running. Basically, use exactly the same thing as the Specs set on-site except get rid of Trick, obviously.

    Name: All-out Special Attacker
    Move 1: Draco Meteor
    Move 2: Thunder / Grass Knot
    Move 3: Surf / Hidden Power Fire
    Move 4: Psyshock / Recover / Dragon Pulse

    EVs on Dual Screens: Just max out Speed. Seriously, 12 SpD makes absolutely no difference, while not running max Speed could easily cost you.

    Finally, you should really still consider the Special Dragon Dance set. I personally think Latios really has some heavy competition for all his other sets apart from Dual Screens, IMO. Latias competes with it for CM (so does Dragon Arceus), while Kyurem-W, Palkia, Dialga and friends compete with it as a nuke. The special Dragon Dance set is really something that is unique to Latios, IMO, and therefore should be considered.

    [SET]
    Name: Special Dragon Dance
    Move 1: Dragon Dance
    Move 2: Dragon Pulse
    Move 3: Thunder / Grass Knot
    Move 4: Psyshock / Surf / Hidden Power Fire
    Item: Soul Dew
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Timid
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    Latios reaches 525 Speed after a Dragon Dance, which is really nice late-game. There is very little outside priority that can outspeed it.
  6. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    Well yeah but Psyshock already 2HKOes :( every ogre except bulky rest talk, and that one gets 2HKOed after rocks and a layer of spikes. That version can't even hurt latios and getting 3HKOed means it can't rest of the damage successfully. I like the idea of using a special attacker thats not walled by Blissey / Chansey also.

    I'll still change it to that but IMO it suffers a bit from slashitis, and I'm personally against Psyshock not being a main option but... it'll get changed.

    <-That

    That set looks like its crying as to whether it wants to destroy Ferrothorn or Chansey lol. Still putting it up though.
  7. gookie

    gookie Administrator
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,873
    yeah i really want to see grass knot have a slash on offensive sets - still beats kyogre, rapes groudon, ground arceus, tyranitar

    other than that 3/3 approved
  8. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    The only set that lacks Grass Knot atm is CM, do you guys want it slashed into CM or... should it go in AC or something.

    Will start writing after notice of this.
  9. gookie

    gookie Administrator
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2010
    Messages:
    2,873
    oops no, missed that. put it into the AC of CM and leave everything else as is
  10. Uchiha

    Uchiha

    Joined:
    Oct 11, 2009
    Messages:
    122
    I am sorry if this is posted in a wrong thread

    Name: Mono Attacker
    Move 1: Dragon Dance
    Move 2: Dragon Pulse
    Move 3: Substitute
    Move 4: Calm Mind
    Item: Soul Dew
    Ability: Levitate
    Nature: Modest/Timid
    EVs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    I kinda like this latios on a stall based team. especially with blissey as partner

    Can set up on burnt or powerwhip/gyroballless ferrothorn and forretress
    the set seems kinda gimmicky but imo its working quite nicely on a stall team.
    I have only used it with modest nature up until now, but maybe timid might be better, ill try to explain why i`m using modest.
    With timid nature scarf palkia outspeeds you even after a dragon dance and you get outsped by other latis and have worse chances against arceus formes.
    But well i already mentioned that i believe it works best with blissey as a partner since wish support is nice and it can handle palkia.
  11. Bossness

    Bossness

    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2011
    Messages:
    440
    This looks like an inferior SubCM Giratina-O. How can scarf palkia outspeed you even after a dragon dance? This looks like a set that Tyranitar and Scizor would like to play with. No one would seriously use this. What does it do? The way you describe it implies that the opponent has no steels and will be helpless to do anything to you as you set up. No recover? How many subs can you make?
  12. Gates

    Gates

    Joined:
    Feb 19, 2010
    Messages:
    65
    The second set in the OP doesn't have the item, ability, nature, or EV spread listed.

    I mean, we pretty much all know what it is, but still.
  13. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    UHM I HAVE NO IDEA HOW I DID NOT NOTICE THAT -_- <- SARCASM IS NOT INTENDED. Edited in, but seriously wth is wrong with me 0_0

    That set is really asking for recovery and coverage. It can't beat anything that has a physical attacking move or Seismic Toss or w.e. Its lack of recover -> not too many subs -> not too much set up on ferro -> subs still broken in one-two hits from ferro gyro (assuming burn) -> its not setting up on ferro if rocks are up -> I have no reason to place this set in OP unless QC suddenly has a very wierd change of heart O_O. That and I agree with anikrahman's points.
  14. Colonel M

    Colonel M I don't suck it's my team that sucks!
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Aug 5, 2007
    Messages:
    4,338
    Lack of recovery really makes that set look pretty bad. Let's also not forget how susceptible that thing is to Steel Arceus, who can match Calm Minds and Roar you out.
  15. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    Wait what but Shrang said...
    Wait so am I still writing DD Latios or does QC have second thoughts :(. I know you agreed with it on the skelly Poppy but I just want to make sure. On a random status update, thats the only set I have left to write O_O.
  16. fatsnorlax

    fatsnorlax

    Joined:
    Jun 18, 2011
    Messages:
    449
    I fail to see why roost is slashed with recover in dual screens... all it does is make Latios EQ vulnerable.
  17. giggity69

    giggity69

    Joined:
    Sep 15, 2009
    Messages:
    362
    From my understanding it does not nullify levitate, only flying typing.
  18. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,846
    I actually like that Levitate + Roost trolling. Even when most players won't usually fall for it, it's basically just the same as Recover, but only with that addition; so I think it should be the only option.
  19. shrang

    shrang I AM CHAMPION CHRISTMAS!!
    is a Contributor to Smogonis a Battle Server Moderatoris a Tiering Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Jul 24, 2009
    Messages:
    4,324
    There is no need to slash both recovery moves in. It's completely redundant to have both Recover and Roost slashed. It's the same as going Agility / Rock Polish on AgiliGross. Deslash one of them please, I don't care which one, just make sure your recovery move is consistent with the rest of your analysis.

    I don't think you're getting the point of it. The Special DD set is there so Latios boosts its Speed in the late-game, and with its huge Special Attack, he doesn't need any other boosting moves. It's strictly a late-game cleaner (or against frailer offensive).
  20. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    Shrang thats a terrible example, agility has more pp then Rock Polish so its better in every case :P. Anyways, chose recover to not have to rewrite more and back space the rest of the analysis, sorry Furai :(.

    WE NEED MORE QUALITY CONTROL INPUT I MUST SUMMON GYRADOS / trickroom :D. Although I must say Latios isn't THAT weak, all it needs is rocks to like 2HKO the whole meta, and what I didn't mention any physical moves. I do dislike the idea of it having to decide on a moveslot on whether it has to beat ferrothorn or Chansey, since one or the other walls it depending on slash, as I said in post#6...

    Yeah I'm intentionally not siding with either of you guys on this argument O_O.
  21. trickroom

    trickroom
    is a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnus

    Joined:
    Sep 13, 2009
    Messages:
    1,002
    I am fine with adding a Special Dragon Dance set because it does have its uses. Keep it in the last slot.

    Dragon Dance can surprise potential revenge killers such as Scarf Kyurem-W, Palkia, Zekrom, Darkrai, Dragon Arceus and even Mewtwo. That's a good reason to use it, although it does not do anything extra vs stall, Offense will hate Dragon Dance Latios. With Soul Dew, Latios is actually pretty strong and decent coverage.

    Don't add the mono-attacker Dragon Dance set though, it sucks because you lose coverage. Kyogre will now beat you with Ice Beam and Steels will just laugh at you. Thunder is a really good coverage move for Latios.
  22. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    I think IRC discussion might work well since I don't want to suppress anyone's opinion, I'll write it up anyway and remove it if QC changes their mind (I started writing a bit yesterday just because 2 approvals > 1 rejection, that's not the case anymore). Also lol DD Latios is so controversial :P.

    EDIT: On a side note I'm getting rid of Grass Knot in OO since every set already has it in its main or AC.
  23. Furai

    Furai a Ωdefender // a αguardian
    is a Site Staff Alumnusis a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Community Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Past SPL Winner

    Joined:
    May 4, 2010
    Messages:
    2,846
    This. And I request Roost over Recover. That simple advantage is the one that calls it. There is an option in word to replace words in CTRL+F, so that should solve the rewording.
  24. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    I thought that was only on Microsoft Word DX, FINE YOUR CHANGES ARE IMPLEMENTED
  25. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

    Joined:
    Apr 29, 2011
    Messages:
    810
    Bump for GP checks.

Users Viewing Thread (Users: 0, Guests: 0)