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Latios (Ubers Analysis) QC (3/3) GP (3/2) ready for upload

Discussion in 'Uploaded Analyses' started by polop, Jul 8, 2012.

  1. Oglemi

    Oglemi We broke it. Yes, we were naughty. Completely naughty.
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    [Overview]

    <p>When looking at Latios's disappointing base stats, particularly his subpar bulk and below-average Special Attack, one might question why he should be used in Ubers. Latios's typing grants him weaknesses to the Dragon-, Ice-, Ghost-, and Bug-type attacks rampant in the metagame, and only offer resistances to Grass-, Electric-, Water-, Fire-, Psychic-, Fighting-, and Ground-type attacks in return; his STABs also have little offensive synergy. He lacks the ability to hit Steel-types hard, and he is forced to use the weather-reliant Surf, Hidden Power Fire, and Thunder for coverage.</p>

    <p>Then what is it that makes him one of the most deadly sweepers in the game? The answer is simple: Soul Dew. The boost Soul Dew provides to Latios's mediocre stats allows him to smite his fellow dragons with ease. Raising Latios's bulk to respectable levels and boosting his Special Attack, Soul Dew allows him to take full advantage of his Speed, ability, and resistances and rival the titans that terrorize the Ubers metagame. However, Soul Dew will not make Latios perfect however; his movepool remains barren, and his physical defense feeble. He also faces competition from Latias, who boasts better Defense and who too can benefit from Soul Dew. Not all is lost for Latios though. By taking advantage of his colossal Special Attack and an ironically distinguished support movepool, Latios can remind all of his forgotten power.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Calm Mind
    move 1: Calm Mind
    move 2: Psyshock
    move 3: Dragon Pulse
    move 4: Surf / Thunder / Roost
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Latios's respectable Special Defense, huge Speed, and monstrous Special Attack allows him to effectively run a Calm Mind set. Calm Mind is the crux of the set; by powering up his already high Special Attack while bolstering his defenses, it makes him less prone to being revenge killed. Psyshock and Dragon Pulse form the bread-and-butter of the set, and allow Latios to essentially go mixed, while also providing the dragon Latios with a way to severely dent the pink blobs that might try to stop his sweep.</p>

    <p>However, if you feel that Psyshock provides little coverage and your team has a way around Blissey and Chansey, you can opt to use either Surf, Thunder, or Roost in the second moveslot. In the rain, Surf brings down Excadrill, Heatran, and Steel Arceus. Thunder hits Steel-types neutrally, while also giving Latios a handy 30% chance to instantly cripple a Pokemon for the rest of the match. However, if you feel that neutral coverage on Steel-types is unnecessary, then you can opt to use Roost which lengthens Latios's longevity and easily allows him to gain more than one Calm Mind boost.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>This Latios set appreciates Stealth Rock and Spikes support, as said entry hazards can push some of his enemies into OHKO range of one of his moves. Ferrothorn and Forretress can easily set up the coveted hazards, while also being able to switch into the one move Latios loathes: Outrage. In exchange, Latios synergizes nicely with these entry hazard layers, as he resists Fire-type moves aimed at Ferrothorn or Forretress.</p>

    <p>Latios also enjoys dual screen and Wobbuffet support. Light Screen and Reflect patch up his weak defenses, allow him to set up multiple Calm Mind boosts, and make him less prone to being revenge killed. Courtesy of its access to Encore and Shadow Tag, Wobbuffet can virtually guarantee that Latios will always be able to safely set up one Calm Mind. Furthermore, Wobbuffet can also provide invaluable trap support for Latios by instantly removing its revenge killers with Counter and Mirror Coat.</p>

    <p>Lastly, Latios pairs well with Kyogre. Not only does Kyogre power up Surf, increase Thunder's accuracy, and maim Ferrothorn and Chansey, it can also effectively combat Tyranitar, who can otherwise trap and Pursuit Latios to his doom. If one wants to avoid this scenario without running Kyogre support, then Grass Knot is an option in the fourth slot over other moves to 2HKO Tyranitar in sand. However, this is not recommended as Latios will struggle to damage Steel-types.</p>

    [SET]
    name: All-Out Attacker
    move 1: Draco Meteor
    move 2: Thunder / Grass Knot
    move 3: Surf / Hidden Power Fire
    move 4: Psyshock / Roost / Dragon Pulse
    item: Soul Dew
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>This Latios variant attempts to take advantage of the free Calm Mind boost offered by Soul Dew to instantly bombard the enemy with powerful special attacks. Draco Meteor's power is enormous, and boasts the ability to OHKO virtually everything that doesn't resist it not named Blissey or Chansey. Thunder allows Latios to ruin Kyogre and Manaphy, while also providing decent coverage, but its reliance on rain might render it useless on certain teams. Grass Knot is a suitable alternative; while it is incapable of dealing damage to Manaphy and enemy Steel-types, it can take an enormous chunk of health out of opposing Groudon, Kyogre, and Tyranitar, regardless of the weather.</p>

    <p>The third move allows Latios to hit Steel-types: Hidden Power Fire maims enemy Forretress, Ferrothorn, and Excadrill in the sun at the cost of losing the Speed tie with other Latios and Latias. On the other hand, Surf keeps Latios's ability to Speed tie with these Pokemon in exchange for leaving him at the mercy of enemy Ferrothorn. The last slot lets Latios use a STAB move that doesn't instantly cripple him. Dragon Pulse is a strong, reliable STAB, while Psyshock gives Latios the ability to damage Blissey and Chansey. However, if you feel that an extra STAB move is unnecessary, you can opt to use Roost to heighten Latios's longevity.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Similarly to the Calm Mind set, Latios finds Groudon and Kyogre to be great teammates. Not only do they make Latios's Hidden Power Fire and Surf more destructive, respectively, they provide fabulous offensive and defensive synergy as well. Kyogre can crush any Ferrothorn, Chansey, and Tyranitar that might stand in the way of Latios with a powerful Choice Specs Water Spout, while Latios is easily capable of destroying the few Pokemon that can switch into the dreaded Water Spout—namely Giratina, Latias, and Gastrodon—with a STAB and Soul Dew-boosted Draco Meteor. Groudon too makes short work of the aforementioned threats with Fire Punch and Earthquake, and can also provide Latios with Stealth Rock support to help it beat down Multiscale Lugia and Regenerator Ho-Oh.</p>

    <p>Latios appreciates Spikes and Toxic Spikes support as well. As with the Calm Mind set, Ferrothorn and Forretress are wonderful partners thanks to their defensive synergy with Latios and ability to instantly litter the field with entry hazards.</p>

    <p>
    However, these partners can also become Latios's worst enemies. If Latios doesn't pack Hidden Power Fire, Ferrothorn will have little trouble absorbing Latios's attacks. It can then set up Spikes and recover all the damage it takes with Leech Seed. Chansey is an even more terrifying foe than Ferrothorn, capable of tanking Psyshock, as it is not even 4HKOed by Psyshock after Latios has crippled himself with Draco Meteor. Latios's aversion to these Pokemon makes Ho-Oh and Blaziken very nice partners, as they boast the ability to severely dent, if not OHKO, Ferrothorn, Forretress, and Chansey with their STAB moves. In return, Latios can punch holes in Giratina and Lugia so that Blaziken and Ho-Oh can more easily sweep the enemy's team later.</p>

    (Combine these two paragraphs)

    [SET]
    name: Dual Screens
    move 1: Light Screen
    move 2: Reflect
    move 3: Draco Meteor / Roost
    move 4: Memento
    item: Light Clay
    nature: Timid
    evs: 252 HP / 4 SpD / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Latios's typing, ability, high base Speed, and access to Memento enable him to distinguish himself as an exceptionally talented dual screen user. Light Screen and Reflect enable Latios to cushion both himself and his team from the enemies' attacks for eight turns. With Memento in his arsenal, Latios can sacrifice himself to lower the offensive stats of an enemy even further, allowing a teammate a free switch-in. The third moveslot choice depends on what the team needs. If Latios's only goal is to cripple an opponent, Draco Meteor lets him do heavy damage before lowering its attacking stats. In addition, Draco Meteor prevents Latios from being destroyed by Taunt and stops Rayquaza from setting up on him. Alternatively, Latios can easily set up screens more than once a match, and Roost enables him to heal himself to do so even more reliably.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>The listed EV spread allows Latios to avoid a 2HKO on average from Timid Choice Scarf Palkia's Spacial Rend, and Speed tie with other Latios and Latias. If one feels that these Pokemon are simply too uncommon and wishes to increase Latios's bulk, a spread of 252 HP / 64 SpD / 192 Spe lets it outrun all non-Choice Scarf (all non-Choice Scarf what?), while 252 HP/ 160 SpD / 96 Spe enables it to outspeed all base 90s while retaining a fairly high amount of special bulk.</p>

    <p>Latios can run moves besides Draco Meteor, or use a healing move for team support. Thunder Wave enables Latios to further cripple his enemies by cutting their Speed and the chance of full paralysis can even help his teammates get an extra boost. Tailwind enables Latios to double the Speed of his team. In particular, it can be used in conjunction with Memento for a teammate to take advantage of the boosts to both bulk and Speed. Finally, Latios can run Dragon Pulse as an option for more reliable STAB. However, Dragon Pulse is fairly weak and incapable of breaking even the Substitutes of a 252 / 0 Ho-Oh or Lugia.</p>

    <p>As Latios's main purpose is to help a teammate sweep, it is a good idea to pair him up with stat-boosting teammates, such as Dragon Dance Rayquaza and Shell Smash Cloyster. In particular, Latios enjoys support from Mew and Gorebyss. They are capable of easily accumulating many boosts to pass to a teammate, who can further use the protection provided by dual screens to pave the way for a bulky sweep.</p>

    [SET]
    name: Special Dragon Dance
    move 1: Dragon Dance
    move 2: Dragon Pulse
    move 3: Thunder / Grass Knot
    move 4: Psyshock / Surf / Hidden Power Fire
    item: Soul Dew
    ability: Levitate
    nature: Timid
    evs: 4 HP / 252 SpA / 252 Spe

    [SET COMMENTS]

    <p>Using Dragon Dance on a specially based Latios might sound absurd, but it provides a useful Speed boost that allows him to outrun and KO almost everything in the metagame. Latios's unique typing is an advantage in this case, as it allows him to take advantage of a stray Surf or Fire Blast to set up with Dragon Dance. These unique traits allow Latios to become a potent cleaner more than capable of striking fear into all teams late-game.</p>

    <p>Dragon Pulse is strong, reliable STAB that will dent everything barring Chansey and Steel-types after Stealth Rock. Thunder assuages Latios's issues with Steel-types in the rain, and provides nice coverage to complement Dragon Pulse. Grass Knot, while incapable of hurting Steel-types, maims Tyranitar, Groudon, and Ground Arceus, scoring OHKOes on the latter two Pokemon and 2HKOes on Tyranitar. The last slot further improves Latios's coverage. With Psyshock, Latios gains the ability to muscle past Chansey, as the move will 2HKO after Stealth Rock. Psyshock, however, leaves Latios vulnerable to both Excadrill and Ferrothorn, two Pokemon that have little trouble stomaching the rest of Latios's attacks. Surf easily takes care of Excadrill, OHKOing it in rain, while Hidden Power Fire will OHKO Ferrothorn and Excadrill in sun. These moves also have nice coverage alongside Thunder and Grass Knot, respectively.</p>

    [ADDITIONAL COMMENTS]

    <p>Latios should only switch in late-game, by which time the opposition should be sufficiently weakened when the opposition has been weakened. Therefore, it enjoys entry hazard support; Stealth Rock, Spikes, and Toxic Spikes can all weaken enemies so that Latios can more easily sweep late-game. Ferrothorn and Forretress again excel at this role not only for their ability to set up entry hazards, but also for their ability to handily wear down the enemy via Leech Seed, Toxic, and Pain Split. These Pokemon also lure out Fire-type moves that Latios can switch in on and use to set up a free Dragon Dance on.</p>

    <p>The level of prediction it takes to set up is quite high. If you feel uneasy switching Latios into threatening Pokemon or just want to guarantee a setup opportunity, you can use Wobbuffet. Wobbuffet's access to Encore and Shadow Tag eases Latios's setup, and allows him to setup on otherwise dangerous Pokemon, such as Dialga locked into Stealth Rock or Palkia locked into Surf.</p>

    <p>Weather support is near-mandatory when using Latios, as his only options for hitting Steel-types rely on the weather for sufficient power. For example, a Hidden Power Fire in rainy weather will fail to 2HKO Ferrothorn and Excadrill, while a Surf in sunny weather will fail to 3HKO Heatran. If you simply cannot afford to put Kyogre or Groudon on your team, then it would be beneficial to pack extra insurance against these Pokemon. Magnezone can serve as insurance for removing these Pokemon from the match due to its unique typing and access to Magnet Pull.</p>

    [Other Options]

    <p>Latios lacks any noteworthy options to use outside of those already listed. If you have an enormous aversion to Tyranitar and wish to maul his body around the battlefield like the fate of Hector, you can run Hidden Power Fighting. As it can also hit Ferrothorn, Excadrill, and Heatran, regardless of weather, it is not completely situational. It's not recommended, though, as it is fairly weak even against targets it hits super effectively.</p>

    [Checks and Counters]

    <p>Like many other Ubers Pokemon, Latios has no true "counter". There are, however, some that stand out from the pack. Chansey, Ho-Oh, and Lugia are not 2HKOed by any of unboosted Latios's moves if Stealth Rock is not up.</p>

    <p>You can also look to taking advantage of Latios's reliance on weather to hit enemy Steel-types. For example, Ferrothorn and Heatran are all capable of walling a Latios in detrimental weather because Latios cannot 3HKO Heatran with a sun-weakened Surf or 2HKO Ferrothorn with a rain-weakened Hidden Power Fire. Excadrill distinguishes itself from the other Steel-types by being able to actually remove Latios from the match via Mold Breaker Earthquake if Latios is in the wrong weather. Jirachi does a similar job, but doesn't really care about which weather it is in, as it can avoid an OHKO from sun-boosted Hidden Power Fire and annoy Latios with the combination of Thunder Wave and Iron Head.</p>

    <p>If you find yourself unable to pack any of these Steel-types on a team, then you might as well resort to revenge killing Latios. While Latios's Speed is high, it is susceptible to priority and faster Pokemon, particularly Swift Swim and Chlorophyll users. Users of strong physical moves, such as Kyurem-B, Garchomp, Genesect, Kabutops, and Kingdra, can patch up their low Speed stat via Choice Scarf or rain and remove non-Dragon Dance Latios from the field by targeting its weak Defense stat. Additionally, although Latios can normally cushion special attacks thanks to Soul Dew, he is hardly impervious to them in any way; strong special attacks can still plow through his sky-high Special Defense. Choice Scarf Dialga and Palkia can revenge kill Latios that lack a Calm Mind or Light Screen boost with STAB Draco Meteor.</p>

    <p>Ghost, Dark, Rock, and Steel Arceus are all capable of stomaching incoming Draco Meteors, and can easily set up Calm Mind or outright KO Latios with their strong physical STABs. They must be wary of Latios utilizing dual screens or opposing Calm Mind Latios though, as they will be setup bait instead. Calm Mind Latios can be taken down by adding Roar to any of Calm Mind Arceus's movesets. Dark Arceus and physically inclined Arceus can beat Calm Mind Latios too; the former is immune to Psyshock, while the latter can OHKO Latios regardless of the number of Calm Minds he has amassed.</p>

    <p>All Latios variants share a crippling weakness to Dark-type moves, Pursuit in particular. Should you be able to switch a Pursuit user into Latios, it will be able to checkmate Latios. Tyranitar and Scizor distinguish themselves with their ability to not only threaten Latios with their STAB, but also to tank a Draco Meteor with ease.</p>

    <p>Lastly, Wobbuffet can easily annoy every Latios variant that exists. It turns the Calm Mind, Dragon Dance, and dual screens sets into setup bait, and boasts the ability to revenge kill Latios that have already used their STAB Draco Meteor.</p>


    [gp]3/3[/gp]
  2. Bossness

    Bossness

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    <p>The listed EV spread allows Latios to avoid a 2HKO on average from Timid Choice Scarf Palkia's Spacial Rend, and Speed tie with other Latios and Latias. If one feels that these Pokemon are simply too uncommon and wishes to increase Latios's bulk, a spread of 252 HP / 64 SpD / 192 Spe lets it outrun all non-...........

    252SpAtk Palkia (Neutral) Spacial Rend vs 252HP/0SpDef Soul Dew Levitate Latios (Neutral): 61% - 73% (224 - 266 HP). Guaranteed 2HKO.
    Since when?
  3. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    If I recall correctly, that's behind Light Screen. A small addition should do it, and then it's finally good to upload!
  4. polop

    polop
    is a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon

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    Your not factoring Dual Screens... the damage done after that is, 46.15 - 54.39%, conveniently the average roll hits 49.99, unless something changed with mechanics during generation switches.

    EDIT: OK Furai I'll edit that in.
    EDIT 2: Getting to that GP check sometime later today, its so late right now :(.
  5. Superimp

    Superimp

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    The Closest Thing to True "Counter" for Latios

    Just before this analysis gets uploaded Mr.lol, I’m wondering if this could be addressed:

    Support Arceus-Dark has the ability to easily switch into any move after Stealth Rock and OHKO Latios easily with Payback. Against Dual Screens, He does just as well if not better than Lugia, Ho-Oh, and Chansey. He also has reliable recovery and the option to run a phazing move. Would you not agree that these facts deem Arceus-Dark the closest Pokemon to a true "counter” of Latios?

    I’m just asking this because as of the moment, the analysis states that he has no counter, saying Lugia, Ho-Oh, and Chansey are the best answers. Arceus-Dark is mentioned, but is clearly de-emphasized in comparison to these three. Although it is definitely true that He is extremely obscure (According to Moveset Analysis for September, He was used around 30 times), Support Arceus-Dark is still an official set according to His analysis. If Support Arceus-Dark's viability as the closest Pokemon to a "true" counter is emphasized, it might be of considerable help to readers for the checks/counters section.

    ----------------​

    In case you need QC input regarding this possible change, here is what trickroom has to say:

    Here are some damage calculations if needed. Logs available upon request. Thanks.
    Show Hide

    Calm Mind Latios against Support Arceus-Dark

    252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 144-171 (32.43 - 38.51%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Dragon Pulse vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 216-255 (48.64 - 57.43%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Surf (rain) vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 153-180 (34.45 - 40.54%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Surf (rain) vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 227-268 (51.12 - 60.36%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    NOTE: Just in case Latios actually runs Hidden Power Fighting

    252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 150-178 (33.78 - 40.09%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Hidden Power Fighting vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 224-264 (50.45 - 59.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    NOTE: Just in case Latios runs Draco Meteor with Stealth Rock and a Calm Mind boost. Which coincidentally is not an option on the current set.

    +1 252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 334-394 (75.22 - 88.73%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    It is to be noted that if Arceus-Dark fully invests in SpD, this happens:

    +1 252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 327-385 (73.64 - 86.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    All-Out Special Attacker Latios against Support Arceus-Dark

    252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 223-264 (50.22 - 59.45%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    -2 252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 112-133 (25.22 - 29.95%) -- 2.93% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Assuming Max Damage Rolls, 12.5 + 59.45 + 29.95 = 101.9%. However, if Arceus-Dark fully invests in SpD, this happens:

    252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 219-258 (49.32 - 58.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    -2 252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 109-130 (24.54 - 29.27%) -- 0.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock

    Assuming Max Damage Rolls, 12.5 + 58.1 + 29.27 = 99.87%.

    Support Arceus-Dark against Most Variants of Latios

    0 Atk Sassy Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Payback vs. 4 HP / 0 Def Timid Levitate Latios : 362-428 (119.86 - 141.72%) -- guaranteed OHKO

    Support Arceus-Dark against Dual Screens Latios

    0 Atk Sassy Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Payback vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Timid Levitate Latios : 362-428 (99.45 - 117.58%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

    0 Atk Sassy Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Payback vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Timid Levitate Latios : 362-428 (99.45 - 117.58%) -- 93.75% chance to OHKO

    With Reflect on the field for Latios:

    0 Atk Sassy Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Payback vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Timid Levitate Latios : 181-214 (49.72 - 58.79%) -- 99.61% chance to 2HKO

    0 Atk Sassy Dread Plate Arceus-Dark Payback vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Timid Levitate Latios : 181-214 (49.72 - 58.79%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


    P.S. If only Latios lacked a weakness to Dark-type attacks... (Overview?)

    EDIT:
    If you want to gain the most from the contents of this edit, please fully read Pre-Edit Post #56 and Post #57 beforehand for maximum effect (AKA please don't glance to possibly avoid more misunderstandings).
    Reply to Mr.lol (and Furai indirectly) (open)

    You are correct Mr.lol. Just like you and I said, Arceus-Dark already has a mention in the checks/counters section. However, it is important to note the wording of the second sentence in the checks/counters section, and that Arceus-Dark is clearly de-emphasized like I said in comparison to Chansey, Lugia, and Ho-Oh.

    Arceus-Dark is by far the best Arceus forme to use against Latios because He has an immunity to Psyshock and none of Latios’s coverage moves can hit Him super-effectively. Hidden Power Fighting is a possible option, but is a little too weak to be effective.

    ---​

    The other Arceus formes have a bit more difficulty against Latios. Arceus-Steel even with maximum SpD investment will always get 2HKOed by Hidden Power Fire under sun after SR.

    252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Hidden Power Fire (sun) vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Arceus-Steel : 220-260 (49.54 - 58.55%) -- 98.83% chance to 2HKO

    ---​

    Arceus-Ghost is neutral to Psyshock, which doesn’t exactly reward maximum SpD investment.

    252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Arceus-Ghost : 168-198 (37.83 - 44.59%) -- 3.13% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock


    +1 252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Calm Arceus-Ghost : 252-297 (56.75 - 66.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    There might be a perfect blend between SpD and Def that allows Arceus-Ghost to take on Latios best, but it’s not in the official analysis as of the moment.

    ---​

    If we’re assuming the official sets in Arceus-Ghost’s analysis, Arceus-Ghost becomes a bit shakier than one might expect.

    252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 4 HP / 0 SpD Jolly Arceus-Ghost : 294-346 (76.96 - 90.57%) -- 25% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Swords Dance Arceus-Ghost can possibly be OHKOed by Draco Meteor after Stealth Rock.

    +1 252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 SpD Timid Arceus-Ghost : 252-297 (56.75 - 66.89%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    +1 4 SpA Timid Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latios : 186-222 (61.58 - 73.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


    4 SpA Timid Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latios : 126-150 (41.72 - 49.66%) -- 83.98% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    4 SpA Timid Spooky Plate Arceus-Ghost Judgment vs. +1 4 HP / 0 SpD Timid Soul Dew Levitate Latios : 126-150 (41.72 - 49.66%) -- guaranteed 3HKO


    Calm Mind Arceus-Ghost can actually lose to Calm Mind Latios because of Psyshock. If He switches into a Calm Mind, He either uses Calm Mind which results in Him being 2HKOed by Psyshock and failing to OHKO with Judgment, or straight out attacking which only has a chance of 2HKOing after Stealth Rock. Roar could work, but is useless in last Pokemon situations.

    Arceus-Rock, Arceus-Bug, and Arceus-Ice have the same issues in addition to being either Sandstorm reliant or having a weakness to Fire-type attacks/not having considerable HP investment.

    ----​

    Based on these facts, I imagine Arceus-Dark is considerably better against Latios than any other Arceus forme. Wouldn’t this let Him “stand out from the pack” just like Chansey, Ho-Oh, and Lugia, except for the fact that He is actually better than them in most scenarios?

    I know that separating Arceus-Dark from the other Arceus formes might be a bit undesirable, but there is some precedent for emphasis in the first paragraph as seen in Mewtwo’s current BW analysis.

    Anyway, either an emphasis in the first paragraph like trickroom and I said or a larger emphasis in your current Arceus section like Furai said would work just fine. However, if you want a little more accuracy in regards to the second sentence of the checks/counters section, a brief Arceus-Dark mention wouldn’t hurt :).



    EDIT 2:
    Reply to Mr.lol (open)
    You make an excellent point that Support Arceus-Dark is incredibly niche. I mean, the set itself showed up only 30 times last month. That's less than Feebas of all Pokemon! The point is, Arceus-Dark still has a official set/niche, and since it does notably well against Latios, wouldn't it make sense to mention Him in a notable way?

    If you're interested, please check EDIT 1 for some of the issues CM Arceus-Ghost has against Latios. Arceus-Ghost requires SR to have a chance of 2HKOing Latios after a CM. Otherwise, He's losing if He switches into a full health Latios using Calm Mind. If only Psyshock didn't exist...

    You are definitely correct on the health preservation aspect of Arceus-Dark. In fact, the very conversation that I had with Furai brought this up. Still, unlike Ho-Oh, Chansey, and Lugia, Arceus-Dark can actually switch into Latios after SR in most scenarios.

    Concerning the damage calculations you provided, they coincidentally apply to Latios after a CM boost.

    +1 252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 216 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 334-394 (75.22 - 88.73%) -- 12.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


    +1 252 SpA Timid Soul Dew Latios Draco Meteor vs. 252 HP / 252 SpD Sassy Arceus-Dark : 327-385 (73.64 - 86.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

    Essentially, Arceus-Dark switches into Latios's Calm Mind, and then uses Payback - Speed is irrelevant. Latios is unfortunately unable to OHKO with Draco Meteor - which happens to not be a slash on the official set.

    For Latios running both Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse, I was assuming in the general sense for the official sets of Latios. Only All-Out Attacker has Draco Meteor and Dragon Pulse on the same set; Dragon Pulse is the third slash. Either way, it cannot be denied that Latios can possibly get past Support Arceus-Dark through a combination of Dragon Pulse / Surf under rain (Used first), Draco Meteor, and SR. But CM Arceus-Dark is a different story...

    CM Arceus-Dark is quite similar to Support Arceus Dark against Latios. CM Arceus-Dark does better against All-Out Attacker; Support Arceus-Dark does better against Special Dragon Dance Arceus-Dark. Against CM Latios, CM Arceus-Dark generally does quite well - unfortunately has a stupid "Calm Mind/Recover" mindgame which isn't very fun.

    Anyway, thanks Mr.lol for implementing Arceus-Dark into the checks/counters section! I imagine it looks more accurate now :).

  6. polop

    polop
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    Superimp, I actually already mentioned Dark Arceus already.

    Besides it is true Dark Arceus actually does allow Latios to get Dual Screens up. I could mention him directly in the first paragraph but that would mean seperating him when talking about Arceus in general (really Ghost Arc. and Steel Arc. can do the same if they have enough investment in Sp Def....)

    Of course, this is my opinion, if QC wants me to directly change it I'll go ahead and do it anyway.

    ALSO I'm implementing GP checks right now (lol), I'll double post if I finish in a few minutes, if not expect it to be done later today.

    EDIT: DONE, GP check has been implemented, but can a QC member make sure if its really needed for Support Dark Arceus to get a larger mention.

    If QC says the analysis is fine as it is then someone upload this thing.
  7. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    I think that your mention should do it Mr.lol, Dark Arceus is somewhat rare. Add that while it is immune to Psyshock, it can OHKO back with Payback. That should do it!

    EDIT: Judging by the calcs provided by Superimp, just give Dark Arceus a bit bigger emphasis and call it a day.

    A part of my conversation with Superimp (open)
    (22:07) <14superimp> View Post Like many other Ubers Pokemon, Latios has no true "counter". There are, however, some that stand out from the pack. Chansey, Ho-Oh, and Lugia are not 2HKOed by any of unboosted Latios's moves if Stealth Rock is not up.
    (22:07) <01Furai> they are checks
    (22:07) <01Furai> as sr is needed to be off
    (22:07) <14superimp> Well, that's what Mr.lol wrote...
    (22:07) <01Furai> he's correct
    (22:07) <14superimp> It's a little misleading because Arceus-Dark exists.
    (22:08) <01Furai> um
    (22:08) <14superimp> Right?
    (22:08) <01Furai> yeah you have a point
    (22:08) <14superimp> I mean, if I were a new user and I read this...
    (22:08) <14superimp> What would I think?
    (22:09) <01Furai> how much does dark arceus take from draco meteor again?
    (22:09) <14superimp> I think the calculations are all there...
    (22:09) <14superimp> In the post.
    (22:09) <01Furai> oh i didn't see the other hide tag haha
    (22:10) <01Furai> i still think it's a check, if to be honest
    (22:10) <14superimp> As you can tell from the calculations, I imagine Arceus-Dark deals with most variants of Latios a bit better than Ho-Oh, Chansey, and Lugia.
    (22:11) <01Furai> it's one hell of a check, yes, and it's by much better than the oters
    (22:11) <01Furai> others*
    (22:11) <01Furai> but dark arceus needs to be at almost full health to tank it well
    (22:11) <01Furai> add spikes and the rest of the things that dark arceus is used to wall
    (22:11) <01Furai> and dark arceus will just rarely manage to do so
    (22:11) <14superimp> True, but add a single SR to Ho-Oh, Chansey, and Lugia...
    (22:11) <14superimp> What happens :P
    (22:12) <01Furai> maybe it should be phrased like "If Dark Arceus manages to keep its health full, x happens"
    (22:12) <14superimp> Maybe something like the current Mewtwo analysis?
    (22:12) <01Furai> what does it say atm?
    (22:12) <14superimp> The damage it takes is still severe though, so it must be carefully conserved for this purpose.
    (22:13) <01Furai> excellent
    (22:13) <14superimp> Mewtwo's analysis has excellent precedent for moving Arceus-Dark up to the first paragraph :).
    (22:14) <14superimp> Just for an example though.
    (22:14) <14superimp> So, where would you place Arceus-Dark?
    (22:14) <01Furai> first paragraph indeed
    (22:15) <14superimp> Could you please edit this into your post please? :)
  8. polop

    polop
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    Superimp, Dark Arceus's niche is why I wanted it in paragraph with Arceus's. Dark Arc. is really just utility, it's like Gastrodon in a sense that its primary niche is countering pokes. Ghost Arceus can run standard 252 HP and 2HKO back with Judgment. Since it outspeeds it really doesn't have problems facing Latios. Dark Arceus doesn't outsped which results in a need for its HP to be kept high if it wants to constantly check Latios, which is harder then it sounds due to low speed. Additionally:
    Assuming it outspeeds Arc. Dark is screwed. Coincidentally you ignored what happens if Latios runs both Dragon Pulse and Draco Meteor. This isn't actually stupid considering it can use this combination of moves to stop other Pokemon like Dialga that switch-in on it.

    (50.22 - 59.45%) + (32.43 - 38.51%), assuming average rolls, 34.46% + 53.38% -> 87.84, OHKO with rocks.

    Regardless, Dark Arceus is now mentioned in the first paragraph. Ready for upload (will edit title in a minute)!

    EDIT: APPARENTLY I NEED 4 GP CHECKS -___________________-
    EDIT 2: GP Checked again by GS and Harsha, ready to upload
  9. Nexus

    Nexus Day 358: Believe
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    [18:37:50] <@Nexus> Furai
    [18:38:08] <@Nexus> please change your name to furry and I'll give it some consideration.
    [18:38:12] <@Nexus> sincerely
    [18:38:15] <@Nexus> Nexus
    [18:38:23] * Furai is now known as Furry

    following orders, like a bitch. Uploaded.

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