Latios

[Vert]

Can someone tell me what happened to Calm Mind Latios?

Latios @ Leftovers / Life Orb
Trait: Levitate
Timid Nature
252 SpA / 4 SpD / 252 Spe
- Calm Mind
- Dragon Pulse
- Psyshock
- Surf / Roost

I read that OO area and Qc can tell me I'm a noob, but CM Latios is NO WAY outclassed by Latias as stated in OO. Latias is more of a bulky booster, but Latios just sets up to smash things. Latias also runs mainly just one attacking move, Dragon Pules, while Latios sets up to smoke everything. In addition to that it is MUCH MORE POWERFUL. I don't know why it isn't getting a set. It is really good and I have been using it and have seeing multiple opposing CM Latios because it's really good. They both play differently and even with +1 SpD, both have close to similiar bulk. Latios has 512 SpD at +2 and Latias has 592 SpD bulk at +2. It doesn't seem like a big difference, but remeber that bulk is mainly for resisted and neutral hits as SE hits smash both. I think the main draw of using Latios > Latias is the power difference.

+1 252 SpA Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Sylveon: 279-328 (70.8 - 83.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

It can run LO to do more damage and Sylveon ONLY does 63% damage max with Pixilate Hyper Voice. With LO, it can OHKO Togekiss after SR.

+1 252 SpA Life Orb Latios Psyshock vs. 252 HP / 0 Def Togekiss: 265-313 (70.8 - 83.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Leftovers recovery

Latios also remains as a similiar utility check like Latias. Latias is generally preferred for bulkier teams, but for HO teams, I'd use CM Latios over it any day.

 

[6feetunder]

While the introduction of Fairy-type Pokemon to the metagame has diminished Latios's capabilities as a sweeper, it is still a fearsome threat that should not be taken lightly.

I don't like this word choice here. even if a calm mind set does get added, sweeping is not latios' primary niche in OU.

also, I don't like the set name "special attacker." all of latios' sets are specially oriented, calling it "special attacker" is vague, uninformative, and redundant.

EDIT: mega lucario and genesect are banned now, so mentions of them need to be removed.

 

[mrglass]

I'm curious as to why Thunderbolt isn't slashed. Azumarill and Togekiss aren't the only things it hits. Mega Charizard Y isn't hit as hard with Surf, nor is Mega Pinsir. In fact, it probably hits as many things super effectively as Surf does, just a different set, so it's good if you aren't interested in taking a Sp. Atk drop.

 

[PurpleCordial]

Mentions of Genesect + MLuke should be removed.
Also I personally would mention Rotom-H over Entei in 'fire types hit harder by surf' but that's just my opinion.

 

[BurningMan]

I'm curious as to why Thunderbolt isn't slashed. Azumarill and Togekiss aren't the only things it hits. Mega Charizard Y isn't hit as hard with Surf, nor is Mega Pinsir. In fact, it probably hits as many things super effectively as Surf does, just a different set, so it's good if you aren't interested in taking a Sp. Atk drop.

Yeah Thunderbolt definitelly needs a mention if not a slash, it also hits Skarmory and Mandibuzz pretty hard as well as getting similar coverage on steel types as surf does and imo its equal to surf.

 

[Martin]

Just a knitpick, but you need to remove all mentions of Genesect and Mega Lucario from the analysis

 

[Skrtel]

actually i think eq should be slashed 1st, because how good it is right now, hitting pesky steel types like heatran, bisharp, aegi etc. tbolt should be slashed with it too, best 2nd move hitting more important things like mandibuzz, skarmory, and still hitting hard bisharp etc. surf and hp fire should be in moves, cause are more situational. so only eq / tbolt imo. also get rid of those mentions of genesect.

edit: talking mostly about 1st set.

 

[Vert]

Defog should be slashed first and Roost second. Defog is one of the reasons why Latios is one of the best PKMN in OU. It is the premier Offensive Defog user in OU. Also, I agree with Skrtel, EQ should be slashed first. Thunderbolt hits Mandibuzz, Skarmory, Keldeo, Azumarill, Bisharp (61.6 - 72.7%), Mega Charizard Y, Talonflame, Gyarados, and Suicune for a truck load of damage. Surf and HP Fire should be AC'd

Set should be
move 3: Earthquake / Thunderbolt
move 4: Defog / Roost
nature: Hasty / Timid

 

[Hidious]

Has anyone tried to see if Latios could pull off something like scarf excadrill and run defog on its scarf set? super fast defog is always nice, and you could even sacrifice coverage and trick a wall a scarf and then defog away hazards. Scarf Latios is overwhelmingly used to revenge kill with Draco anyway so losing surf and hp fire isn't that detrimental. Latios already has to swap out a lot after revenge killing with Draco so it really doesn't require a lot more support

The disadvantages are obvious, but I think it does provide a niche like scarf excadrill

 

[Aetherr_]

Is it possible to run HP Fighting on Latios? It beats some of it's counters like T-Tar, and Bisharp? But I see it losing some valuable coverage and its a bit too situational.

 

[dragonuser]

after a discussion on irc we axed specs set and slightly rearranged moves on first set

 

[CrashinBoomBang]

Thunderbolt and, most likely, Hidden Power Fighting should be made bigger parts of the set. Meanwhile, Surf and especially Hidden Power Fire don't offer too many positive traits and should be removed/moved to other sections.

Surf and Thunderbolt have very similar neutral coverage for Latios (Steel types mostly since Dragon and Psychic cover most of everything else), but Surf only hits a few relevant mons harder than Thunderbolt, most of which don't even significantly threaten Latios (Heatran, Hippowdon, Gliscor, Landorus-T and Excadrill while also preventing Tyranitar from getting 2 Dragon Dances with Rocks up) while missing out on a lot of useful coverage and 2HKO potential on things that actually threaten Latios achieved by the latter. While those three are definitely important targets, I believe that Thunderbolt brings a lot more utility to the table. For example, Sitrus Berry Azumarill is always 2HKO'd by Psyshock + Thunderbolt while it has a high chance to live 2 consecutive Psyshocks. Thunderbolt is also able to get an OHKO on less invested versions after just Stealth Rock damage while always OHKOing 252/0 Azumarill after 2 switchins with SR up.

But that's not all; Thunderbolt also hits Skarmory (whose Specially Defensive set walls you with Surf over Thunderbolt) and nabs the O/2HKO on targets such as Suicune (who can Rest off the damage and set up Calm Minds), Manaphy (might be 2HKOd by Psyshock too), Mandibuzz, Slowbro, Mega Pinsir, and Togekiss. While it is true that Draco Meteor O/2HKOs most of these, a -2 Latios is something you'd rather avoid considering how few completely safe switch-ins Latios gets and how much of a setup bait Latios becomes at -2. Thunderbolt makes it a more flexible and dangerous option since you don't have to blow your Draco Meteor on all of these things. While Psyshock does more damage to most of these than to the ones hit harder by Surf, Pokemon such as Manaphy and Mandibuzz threaten Latios to a great deal; Pokemon such as Skarmory and Assault Vest Slowbro also loving sponging Draco Meteors for Latios to become "worthless" while the Pokemon hit by Surf all dislike Draco Meteor to a great degree (even Excadrill is almost 2HKOd). So while Surf still has its uses, Thunderbolt is probably the "better" move. Of course, depending on your team, Surf might still be a valid choice; that's why it should still be listed as an option, just not as a main one.

Hidden Power Fighting is a different story; instead of aiming for Latios to achieve the best possible coverage and utility it greatly threatens the Pokemon who can severely threaten Latios' life, those Pokemon being Pursuit users. Tyranitar and Mega Tyranitar (not technically a Pursuit user, but Dragon Dance variants can set up on Latios with ease) are both easily 2HKO'd without significant investment while Bisharp is OHKO'd, preventing it from both switching in and going for the "safe" Pursuit at full health (since you can't OHKO it with any other move). It also hits Heatran for decent damage and can almost 2HKO Ferrothorn, making it not only useful for the aforementioned users of Pursuit but also for other typical switch-ins.

Hidden Power Fire OHKOs Scizor and has a chance to OHKO Ferrothorn. I don't think either is really worth it unless you have a severe Scizor weakness. Probably the weakest out of these options.

I still acknowledge Earthquake as a decent move since all its targets are really good Latios switchins, and generally more useful than Hidden Power Fighting, but almost everyone on IRC agreed that Thunderbolt should be slashed before Earthquake when I asked around a few days ago. Hence, I'd like the slashes in moveslot 3 to be: Thunderbolt / Earthquake / Hidden Power Fighting with Surf and maybe Hidden Power Fire mentioned in the set details as viable alternatives.

Also, give Shadow Ball a mention in OO since it does 49-58 to 252/0 Aegislash, who seems to be Latios' most common switch-in. If nothing else, it's definitely better than Heal Block.

(Sorry if some of the stuff I said doesn't make sense I was rather tired when I wrote this; if something needs to be cleared up just let me know. Similarly, if someone disagrees, please let me know so we can go over this.)

 

[dragonuser]

been meaning to update this

done

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

Would a 2 attack + Roost + Defog set be viable? Without Roost Latios doesn't reliably check things like Keldeo (without Icy Wind) or CharY (without Dragon Pulse) which is a pretty big deal imo considering how hard they are to switch into and how well Latios can do this if it packs recovery.

Losing out Defog kind of sucks though so would a set of Draco Meteor/Dragon Pulse, Thunderbolt/Psyshock/Earthquake, Roost, Defog be viable or is this better left to Latias?

 

[Agent Gibbs]

Yeah, I personally think that such a set would probably be best left to Latias. Latios's biggest advantage over Latias is its excellent offensive capabilities, which it needs to take advantage of with as much offensive coverage as possible. For a more support oriented set, you'll probably be better off using Latias due to its higher defenses.

 

[Hootie]

Why is their no mention of Bisharp as Pursuit users in the C&C section? It only fears HP Fighting or EQ plus it can put Latios in a tight spot as if the user stays in on Sharp then they could get OHKO'd by sucker punch. Not mention it takes advantage of Defog. Seriously why is there no mention at all lol? Also Mega Scizor is mentioned as Pursuit user? It has better things it can be doing against Latios such as Knock Off or SD. Aegislash should be in the Pursuit user category as well.

 

[LightningLuxray]

Why is their no mention of Bisharp as Pursuit users in the C&C section? It only fears HP Fighting or EQ plus it can put Latios in a tight spot as if the user stays in on Sharp then they could get OHKO'd by sucker punch. Not mention it takes advantage of Defog. Seriously why is there no mention at all lol? Also Mega Scizor is mentioned as Pursuit user? It has better things it can be doing against Latios such as Knock Off or SD. Aegislash should be in the Pursuit user category as well.

Probably because Pursuit Bisharp/Aegislash wasn't really a thing when this was being written in December. But yes, they should be added.

 

[PurpleCordial]

Mega Luke is still mentioned in here

 

[Hootie]

Probably because Pursuit Bisharp/Aegislash wasn't really a thing when this was being written in December. But yes, they should be added.

Even without Pursuit though Bisharp is still a huge threat for Latios regardless.

 

[Martin]

In set details for the offensive set, mention that 164 attack EVs let you OHKO Heatran with EQ

 

[Jukain]

ought to mention that roost + defog + 2 atks is a very legitimate option for set 1. also psychic ohkoes phys def mega venu which is cool.

 

[Mitchhhhhh]

In set details for the offensive set, mention that 164 attack EVs let you OHKO Heatran with EQ

Why is this relevant exactly? O.o

 

[Leica]

In set details for the offensive set, mention that 164 attack EVs let you OHKO Heatran with EQ

..What.

Why would you ever cut in other stats that much just to OHKO something you already 2hko and outspeed and is a very specific threat.