Resource LC Ban List + Votes

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macle

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#1
Introduction and Background

Little Cup was introduced in Pokemon Stadium 2 as one of the "Stadium Cups," or particular modes in which the player had stipulations on his or her team. The stipulation for Little Cup was that only Pokemon hatched from eggs could participate, which included only Pokemon that could evolve but had just been hatched at, in accordance with ADV mechanics, level 5.

Though players slowly began to pick up this odd tier due to its uniqueness in star Pokemon and viable strategies, it was not until DPP that Little Cup (LC) finally had a chance as a competitive metagame at Smogon under the direction of vader, who brought it over from Stadium 2 with the earliest medium for LC communication, the Little Cup Forum. A few mechanics had changed with breeding, and the logistics of the tier had changed as well; for example, eggs now hatched at level 1, but LC was still played at level 5, which allowed easy application of EV spreads.

DPP LC brought forth a small, tightly knit community and strategies that predominantly revolved around hyper offense. By BW, LC began to progress both as a metagame and as a community. The introduction of Eviolite allowed more balanced strategies to prosper, and the community thrived. ORAS LC introduced a lot of new things to the metagame such as Fairy typing, Fletchling, and Sticky Webs. LC has become more respected within Smogon during ORAS. SUMO has brought new Pokemon to the game and nerfed a variety of moves and abilities. Who knows what will happen this generation?

Rules
Pokemon Eligibility


In order to be used in LC, a Pokemon must comply with the following criteria:
  • The Pokemon must be able to evolve.
  • The Pokemon must be at its earliest evolution stage.
  • The Pokemon must be at level 5.

Clauses

Little Cup, like other metagames, uses clauses to ensure the most competitive environment. These are:
  • Species Clause: Only one Pokemon from each species may be on a team.
  • Sleep Clause: Only one Pokemon per team can be put to sleep by an opponent at a time.
  • OHKO Clause: Moves that score a guaranteed OHKO on the opponent (Sheer Cold, Horn Drill, Guillotine, and Fissure) are banned.
  • Evasion Clause: Moves that boost evasion (e.g. Double Team and Minimize) are not allowed. Note that moves with an alternative purpose that also incidentally affect evasion (such as Defog and Acupressure) are allowed.
Banned Moves and Abilities
  • Dragon Rage: This move always inflicts 40 damage on the foe, unless it is a Fairy-type. This move is an absurdity in LC, where no Pokemon can even reach an HP stat above 40.
  • Sonic Boom: This move always inflicts 20 damage on the foe, unless it is a Ghost-type. Although it is less brutal than Dragon Rage, it is still enough to instantly take out a large portion of the tier.
  • Swagger: In conjunction with moves such as Thunder Wave, this move could successfully immobilize an opposing Pokemon while dealing rather consistent damage. It was deemed uncompetitive and banned from the tier
  • Moody: This ability increases a random stat by 2 and decreases a random stat by 1 at the end of each turn. It is considered too random to be competitively relevant.

Banned Items
Eeveeium: This item worked exclusively on Eevee, allowing it to boost its Attack, Defense, Special Attack, Special Defense, and Speed by two stages. Coupled with Eevee's access to the ability Adaptability and overall okay stats, these boosts derived from Eeveeium pushed an otherwise unnoteworthy Pokemon over the edge. The item was quickly banned following the same reasoning as banning a mega stone in OU.

Banned Pokemon



Base Stats: 70 HP / 110 Atk / 80 Def / 55 SpA / 80 SpD / 105 Spe
Abilities: Swarm / Technician / Steadfast


Scyther's base stats, which are actually the same in total as its evolution, Scizor, are simply too good to allow Scyther to battle with the rest of LC. Scyther has access to everything it needs to abuse these high stats, including boosting moves (Swords Dance and Agility) and strong STAB (Technician-boosted Aerial Ace and Bug Bite). It even has priority, again boosted by Technician, in Quick Attack. Even after Stealth Rock, Scyther lives most attacks too thanks the absurd BST it posses. Scyther has never been unbanned and likely never will be.


Base Stats: 55 HP / 95 Atk / 55 Def / 35 SpA / 75 SpD / 115 Spe
Abilities: Inner Focus / Keen Eye / Pickpocket


While not as extreme as Scyther in stats, Sneasel still has excellent offensive STAB attacks and a simply brilliant stat spread for its role. Sneasel was actually temporarily allowed in early XY LC, but it was banned due to its extremely strong Knock Off, which by itself, or in conjunction with Ice Punch and Brick Break, was able to wear down Sneasel's common switch-ins. Furthermore, Sneasel was difficult to revenge kill due to its access to a priority move, Ice Shard and blistering Speed.


Base Stats: 65 HP / 55 Atk / 115 Def / 100 SpA / 40 SpD / 60 Spe
Abilities: Chlorophyll / Leaf Guard / Regenerator


Tangela was one of the first Pokemon banned by the LC Council in XY. Tangela was originally allowed into the metagame, but it was found to be simply too strong and bulky, especially when running its signature set of Sleep Powder, Solarbeam, and Ancient Power with support from Drought Vulpix. Even outside of the sun, Tangela could run a devastatingly resilient defensive set or an extremely strong and durable Life Orb set that used Leaf Storm and Regenerator. Tangela was banned by a unanimous vote from the LC council.


Base Stats: 65 HP / 65 Atk / 45 Def / 75 SpA / 45 SpD / 95 Spe
Abilities: Speed Boost / Compound Eyes / Frisk


Yanma was the second Pokemon banned by the LC Council in XY. Yanma had two destructive sets that were simply too strong for the Little Cup metagame: a Speed Boost set, which easily sweep opponents late-game when priority users had been eliminated, and a Compound Eyes set that utilized Hypnosis and Yanma's 20 Speed to cripple all potential counters and either set up with Substitute or get out with STAB U-turn. Ultimately, the proliferation of the second set, one that was simply too fast, strong, and unstoppable for LC, was what pushed Yanma over the edge and led to a unanimous vote.


Base Stats: 65 HP / 75 Atk / 105 Def / 35 SpA / 65 SpD / 85 Spe
Abilities: Hyper Cutter / Sand Veil / Immunity


Gligar's unique typing and great offensive and defensive stats were what led to its inevitable ban from XY LC. It could run a variety of sets, from a support hazard setter to a Swords Dance sweeper. After the ban of Yanma and Tangela, Gligar became the most over-centralizing Pokemon in the tier, proved by an astounding 47% usage rate. Little Cup became a metagame filled with Choice Scarf Hidden Power Ice Pokemon with the intent of taking on Gligar, and the "Fly Scorpion"'s versatility was deemed to much for the tier.


Base Stats: 62 HP / 48 Atk / 66 Def / 59 SpA / 57 SpD / 49 Spe
Abilities: Sweet Veil / Unburden


Despite its cute appearence Swirlix was one of, if not, the most terrifying sweeper to have ever graced Little Cup. Capable of running a variety of sets, Swirlix began to dominate the tier with its fantastic combination of Belly Drum, Cotton Guard, Calm Mind, and Unburden, being even further bolstered by a diverse movepool. There was no way to know if your "Swirlix counter" would actually counter the opposing Swirlix, and this versatility was just too much for Little Cup to handle.


Base Stats: 60 HP / 85 Atk / 42 Def / 85 SpA / 42 SpD / 91 Spe
Abilities: Insomnia / Super Luck / Prankster


Murkrow's fantastic offensive stats, coupled with access to solid STAB moves in Brave Bird and Dark Pulse, made it a huge threat in Little Cup. It could effectively sweep with an extremely threatening Life Orb set, an annoying Substitute + Thief set, or even a Prankster + Haze utility set. Its raw damage output coupled with its versitility and few possible counters prompted Murkrow's ban.


Base Stats: 30 HP / 40 Atk / 55 Def / 40 SpA / 55 SpD / 60 Spe
Abilities: Pure Power / Telepathy


At first glance, Meditite's stats seem underwhelming, but it was blessed with Pure Power, an amazing ability that doubled its Attack to a toppling 28. This, in conjunction with a solid movepool and decent bulk, made Meditite one of the most devastating wallbreaker in Little Cup. However unlike the other wallbreakers of the tier, its main STAB prevented it from being worn down throughout the match forcing team allowing it to continually abuse its 28 Attack. Even its middling Speed or medocre bulk were a non issue, as a Choice Scarf would patch up its the lack luster Speed while an Eviolite would mend its rather mediocre bulk, both bolstering Meditite's already insane levels of power.


Base Stats: 60 HP / 60 Atk / 60 Def / 85 SpA / 85 SpD / 85 Spe
Abilities: Levitate


Misdreavus's ban was rather controversial, as many users were unsure of their feelings towards the Ghost-type. The omnipresent Knock Off and extreme viability of Choice Scarf Pawniard seemed to keep Misdreavus in check, and the plethora of bulky Normal- and Dark-types proved to be a challenge for Misdreavus to overcome and perform its role effectively. However with its 19 Speed, 18 Special Attack, and access to a variety of great support and offensive moves frequently lead to Misdreavus surmounting
these challenges. Due to its centralization and its ban from the tier.


Base Stats: 90 HP / 50 Atk / 34 Def / 60 SpA / 44 SpD / 70 Spe
Abilities: Unburden / Aftermath / Flare Boost


Drifloon's ban was also highly controversial, as its bests sets were not nearly as powerful as Misdreavus's. However, Drifloon did possess the ability to shut down a number of Pokemon of the tier's best Pokemon. Drifloon also had only a couple of reliable counters, most of which were susceptible to trapping. Other avenues of support proves to make Drifloon difficult to handle overtime, as hazard support crippled most of its checks especially in tandem with burn damage while Knock Off spam made teams susceptible to its admittedly weak Acrobatics. With Unburden, Drifloon outspeed the entire tier once its Berry Juice was consumed, making means of revenge killing it hard to manage. The combination of these traits lead to Drifloon's frequently debated ban.


Base Stats: 65 HP / 60 Atk / 60 Def / 85 SpA / 75 SpD / 40 Spe
Abilities: Download / Trace / Analytic


Porygon has long been a staple of Little Cup and one of the best Pokemon available. However in SUMO Porygon gained an absurd new toy: Z-Conversion. Z-conversion boosted Porygon's already above average stats by one stage, which coupled with a boost from Download turned Porygon into a fast, bulky, and extremely hard to wall Pokemon. Conversion's mechanics also proved to make the set more deadly, as Porygon could change its typing to avoid being weak to Fighting-type priority and therefore revenge killing Porygon became even harder to accomplish. Z-Conversion pushed Porygon over the edge, which lead the council to ban Porygon in the early stages of the metagame.


Base Stats: 40 HP / 45 Atk / 40 Def / 55 SpA / 40 SpD / 84 Spe
Abilities: Honey Gather / Shield Dust / Sweet Veil


Cutiefly was the first Pokemon in LC to have access to Quiver Dance, which by itself made Cutiefly a good Pokemon in Little Cup. However Cutiefly had access to Baton Pass which it frequently abused alongside Quiver Dance. Cutiefly Baton Passing +1 Speed, +1 Special Attack, and +1 Special Defense into the likes of Magnemite, Houndour, Vullaby, Staryu, Pumpkaboo, and even some Physical oriented Attackers such as Timburr proved to be overwhelming for the tier. Cutiefly is the first Pokemon in Little Cup to have been banned in part because of its Baton Passing abilities, however it could also pose a huge threat as a standalone sweeper with three attacks.


Base Stats: 38 HP / 41 Atk / 40 Def / 50 SpA / 65 SpD / 65 Spe
Abilities: Flash Fire / Drought

Vulpix is the only Pokemon in LC to have the ability Drought. With the abilities to auto set up sun, Vulpix provided excellent support to Chlorophyll Pokemon such as Bellsprout and Bulbasaur. Sun hindered teambuilding and the dual Chlorophyll teams became too much so it was banned.


Base Stats: 55 HP / 70 Atk / 55 Def / 40 SpA / 55 SpD / 85 Spe
Abilities: Run Away / Pick Up / Skill Link

Aipom's Tail Slap allowed it to inflict a minimum of 20 damage to every Pokemon in LC that didn't resist it, and any Pokemon that didn't resist it would be hurt by its vast coverage. This power combined with high Speed and acceptable bulk let Aipom act as an incredible wallbreaker and cleaner that could either set-up a team to be swept by something else or sweep a team once it was weakened a bit. This overbearing power lead Aipom to be quickbanned unanimously by the Council at the start of USM LC.
 
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macle

expert in crunching numbers and crushing rivals
is a Tutor Alumnusis a Site Staff Alumnusis a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnusis an Artist Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnusis a Tiering Contributor Alumnusis a Contributor Alumnusis a Smogon Media Contributor Alumnusis a Battle Server Moderator Alumnus
#2
Cutiefly Council Votes

star said:
Basically I think cutiefly is borked as shit. Despite having a crap BST qd allows it to become an insanely good offensive sweeper and also has the ability to pass the boosts around with BP. It's overwhelming to prepare for cutiefly because even outside phazing for BP there's still sets like 3 attack and even LO that are insanely dangerous due to its amazing speed tier and decent special attack and perfect coverage on every mon in LC. Overall cutie's an insane mon to deal with even outside of BP and should go
fatty said:
i was told this was the option for a man in my predicament? although i recognize there is a problem with cutiefly, i do not believe it is indicative of cutiefly being broken, but rather due to a broken move in that of baton pass. for this reason, as well as there not being a viable third option, i can't justify banning cutiefly entirely, and thus i don't it should be banned.
fiend said:
Following the logic set by our last suspect, we do not ban moves--even unique moves--unless absolutely necessary. If we are to ban a move it should be broken on enough viable Pokemon that it is clearly the issue; Quiver Dance is not the case, though it is extremely good yet only busted when used in tandem with BP. BP is similarly extremely good, but LC is so full of passers that are not broken that one should not be able to successfully argue that, in the current metagame, Baton Pass is broken. Therefore we are left with only the option of a complex ban of QD + BP or banning Cutiefly, the latter of which is a complex ban and a last resort while former is a standard ban. It's sucks to say, but ban Cutifely.
levi said:
I vote to ban Cutiefly; I disagree with banning the pokemon when we can just as well solve the issue by banning a facet of the pokemon without collateral or complex bans, but seeing how we decided to set poor precedent by banning Porygon instead of Conversion, we should follow this precedent (which had an even stronger case to not ban the Pokemon) until the Porygon decision is reversed.
sken said:
I vote for ban Cutiefly.

I'm really against this and I think Quiver Dance is totally the only broken part in Cutiefly, however, we already set a bad precedent with Porygon so we have to show consistency. I'm really opened to change this if we somehow decide to retest or make any other decision on the Porygon ban, but until then, we have to follow the precedent that we have set for consistency. About Cutiefly, the QD 3 attacks set has no counters other than Munchlax, and its ability to Baton Pass those qd boosts into other threats is just too much.
celestavian said:
I vote to ban Cutiefly. Cutiefly is, as a sweeper, not insanely powerful like Porygon was, but once its checks have been removed or weakened, it sweeps very well. It has high speed and a very nice typing to do this with. Without Baton Pass, Cutiefly would be a sweeper much like Omanyte is used: a late-game powerhouse that you can't have the wrong Pokemon in front of or you lose. However, unlike Shellder or Omanyte or Torchic or any other booster in LC, Cutiefly has two options for using its boosts, pass or attack. Torchic is reserved for full passing and has a hard time sweeping with just Speed boosts, while Omanyte and Shellder lack Baton Pass. Cutiefly's high Speed, great typing, and passable defenses with Eviolite make it far more threatening that any other sweeper with a boost up, with only a few specialized hard counters. Cutiefly is broken because of it's access to Quiver Dance + Baton Pass and the right stats and typing to use it effectively both as a sweeper or as a passer.
op said:
Ban Cutiefly

Cutiefly's abilities to pass Quiver Dance or threaten to sweep on its own are just too strong. It's very easy to set-up and once you do, there aren't many answers. Cutiefly is currently restricting teambuilding too much to be healthy and still manages to do well when opponents bring multiple good checks. Banning Quiver Dance doesn't make any sense to me, policy wise, and I feel Baton Pass isn't broken outside of Cutiefly.
shrug said:
ban cutiefly:

baton pass is not broken enough elsewhere to justify a ban and quiver dance is cant be banned on the porygon / converzion premise. cutiepass is broke as hell - sets up on so much and throws the boosts to nearly any pokemon. qd + attacks has enough to keep dudes on their toes aswell, limiting options. broken, ban it
heysup said:
I think it's in the best interest of the metagame, that the TL's, as policy setters, we stay in line with the policies we set. We do not ban moves. We had Porygon banned, and unless you were convinced that Porygon was broken independent of Conversion, that's a precedent we set. I disagree with the line put at the bottom of macle's post. They just simply shouldn't be options, unless BP is argued that it breaks multiple Pokemon, which it hasn't been.

With that in mind, unfortunately, I think Cutiefly has to go.
mambo said:
porygon set a precedent, ban cutiefly
macle said:
Cutiefly's ability to pass off qd boosts is bonkers with its typing and speed stat. ban


Porygon Council Votes

fatty said:
A) Ban Porygon
While initially being torn on the issue, and even leaning a bit towards the otherside, after thinking about this quite a bit I've come to the conclusion that banning Porygon itself is definitely the right choice. Sure, we got a new mechanic in Z-moves, but that shouldn't cloud our judgment when it comes to how we tier. I keep looking back on if Porygon was a new addition this generation, would we really be having this much of a debate right now? I really don't think so, and in fact I believe we would ban Porygon itself quite readily. Having said that, I can possibly see the other side in banning Z-Conversion, but when it comes down to it this is the only sure-fire way of getting rid of the problem, and realistically the only part that we have justification in banning (we can't really know for sure that Z-Conversion is the problem because no other mon has access to it). Lastly, while I do agree that we should look at precedents already set to guide us, the main point of this decision isn't that but rather setting a precedent for the future.
levi said:
i vote to ban conversion. i do not think we should ban balanced yet viable sets to follow precedence that doesn't exist and set policy that doesn't affect other tiers.
sken said:
I vote for ban Conversion.

Conversion is broken just because of its ability to become Z-Conversion, which is too powerful for the LC metagame. Banning Conversion would have the same effect as banning Porygon to eliminate its most broken set from the meta with making the fewest changes possible for it. Some pro-porygon ban arguments consist in saying that Z-Conversion wouldn't be broken in x mon if it got it, but I don't think we should base our decisions on theorymonning. Other arguments try to talk about policy, even though some tournament directors like M Dragon have already manifested that policy would go in the ban Conversion way. In conclusion, Conversion is exclusively what makes Porygon broken imo, and making the decision with the least collateral effects seems to be the way to go.
shrug said:
a) ban porygon

z-moves are in essence moves, and we do not ban moves to save pokemon even if theres no collateral damage. to uphold smogon precedent, the best course is to ban porygon - it's an extremely broken mon in this metagame.
mambo said:
ban conversion IF a policy regarding z-moves is implemented immediately using conversion as precedence OR we also ban pure power and free meditite

otherwise, if that's too complicated, ban porygon
macle said:
Ban Porygon

I'm voting ban Porygon over ban Conversion because I feel Z Conversion is not a broken move. Z Conversion p much just give +1 atk/spa and +1 speed and changes type when you factor in the lose of eviolite. Is that really a broken move? I'm pretty sure it isnt broken, definitely not sure enough to ban it.
quote said:
Ban Porygon

I could write a barnburner of an explanation but I'll keep it simple.

It's obvious Porygon is broken. It sets up, changes typing to severely limit its checks, and then sweeps with +2 STAB Tbolt or coverage, and can reliably heal because it gains Eviolite bulk. It still has to be wary of scarfers, a couple of boosting mons, and munchlax, but it dominates nearly everything else. The decision was ultimately between the mon and the move and I chose the mon itself because while normally I'm okay with banning a move if everything that gets it is broken, because only one mon gets Conversion we would essentially be trying to limit the mon to make it balanced, which goes against traditional policy and sets a gross precedent for future suspects. I also don't entirely believe that Z-Conversion would be broken on every other mon in the game. While that's technically theorymon, you can't deny that Porygon's combination of movepool, bulk, and power are what truly tip the scales.
star said:
I'm choosing Option A: Ban Porygon
The reason for this choice is first and foremost upholding traditional smogon policy. We ban pokemon not moves or complex banning mechanics except in the most extreme of cases (bp or mega ray). Although I admit banning conversion does not have any collateral in LC I want to set the best precedent possible and that is only possible by banning Porygon. Just because conversion is unique to porygon does not make it ok for us to ban conversion just to keep Porygon in the tier. Basically I just want to keep in line with the policy of banning mons not moves and not create a precedent that could be exploited later.
op said:
Ban Porygon

For a long time I didn't have a very strong opinion, slightly leaning towards Conversion ban. I felt both options were equally viable and that a Conversion ban would be better than a Porygon ban because there would be much less collateral. (Banning a Pokemon vs banning 1 move on 1 Pokemon) My opinion has somewhat changed recently though. It's much cleaner and easier to simply ban Porygon and it leaves no room for argument that we could possibly be setting a poor precedent. A Porygon ban most closely follows current policy and would definitely be "correct", while there's doubt with a Conversion ban. Policy comes become metagame diversity and I feel banning Porygon is the most correct option, policy-wise.
fiend said:
I vote for option A, as Conversion nor Z-Conversion alone are what make Porygon broken.

Conversion is so absurdly underwhelming by itself it has been used on failed gimmick sets all entirely irrelevant outside of Z-Conversion or the aforementioned awful gimmicks. It was relevant for a grand total of two weeks, being generous, before Z-Conversion. I stand diametrically opposed to banning a non-broken move, even as the indirect way to ban a supposedly broken move. Moreover, I do not think Z-Conversion alone is the cause of Porygon's ludicrousness as both as shown both by theorymon of placing Z-Conversion on the likes of Vullaby, Diglett, Cutiefly, Pawniard, Abra, Spritzee, and Mienfoo and due to the fact that all other +1 to all stat Z-moves (Trick-or-Treat) are not at all, or at best fringe cases on being relevant. While neither of these are hard and fast proof that, the combination of these leads me to believe that Porygon is the broken factor of the combination. Its natural bulk, great coverage, access to Recovery, Z-Conversion, and good enough Speed pushes it over the line of being broken--and while Z-Conversion is a large factor in this, it is the straw which broke the camel's back. Further the notion that this is the ban to make due to lack of meaningful collateral reeks of hoping to 'save' Porygon despite being against the status quo of LC's bans and Smogon's general philosophy. Never have we banned a Pokemon's best set instead of the Pokemon (BP aside), and this does not warrant straying away from this practice.
heysup said:
A) Ban Conversion

Obviously this vote has nothing to do with whether or not Porygon is broken. It's plenty obvious that +1 to all stats on a Pokemon that was already S tier with a beneficial side effect (unlike Trick-or-Treat/Forest's Curse which is kind of annoying) was going to be too much.

lvl 100 tiers have made it clear that they don't even understand their own policies. Despite this, M Dragon's OU philosophy is basically to minimize collateral for greater metagame diversity, and this seemed like the most plausible set of guidelines. Otherwise you're handcuffed in circumstances like BP in which they created a huge mess. This has especially useful application in LC because only one Pokemon learns Conversion and only 1 Pokemon learns Quiver Dance (should this change, we may need to re-evaluate this, and ban Porygon altogether because it would not longer fit under the criteria). Furthermore, it is an objective standard which is very important to maintain in such a large council. This is more appealing to me than "we usually ban Pokemon except sometimes we don't, and no one can really explain why" which is what ABR / Dodmen were suggesting.
This vote is not about if Porygon is broken, but it's about what precedent we want to set in our tier.
zoroarkforever said:
Ban Porygon

It's pretty obvious Z-Conversion Porygon is broken, so I don't think my decision to deal with it really needs an explanation.

I chose to ban Porygon and not Conversion because there's nothing innately wrong with Z-Conversion. I consider it a move for the reasons stated by Shrug here and therefore believe it should be treated as one when it comes to banning policy. Other moves that are banned are blantantly overpowered (Dragon Rage, Sonicboom) or introduce a heavy luck element into the game (Evasion boosters, OHKO moves) and are banned as a last resort aka they break everything that can learn them; this has been consistent throughout every smogon tier. Building off that, historically, bans do not separate abilities / moves from the pokemon that abuse them, as it sets a bad precedent for complex bans on things like Pure Power and other pokemon with unique move / ability combinations (Hypno+Compoundeyes, Unburden+BJ for LC come to mind as things that would come up other than the obvious. King's Shield, Protean, etc for OU). You can read more about my opinion in my post here.
celestavian said:
I vote for the option of banning Porygon. The reason that I choose to ban Porygon and not Conversion is that I am not convinced that Conversion is broken, but rather, it is the combination of Porygon and Conversion that is broken. In normal circumstances, this would be an easy Porygon ban, but since Conversion is exclusive to Porygon, many have tried to get Conversion banned instead. I see this as a way to nerf Porygon to keep it around, which has never been Smogon policy. I feel that in order to ban Conversion we must be convinced that it is the broken aspect, but as I have detailed in the metagame discussion thread, only Porygon has the proper tools to make Conversion broken. Porygon's access to Download, BoltBeam coverage, Recover, and high innate bulk and power is what makes Conversion broken, not because Conversion itself is broken. A Porygon with a boost to all stats and a double boost to Special Attack can run over the metagame very easily, making it banworthy in my eyes.


Diglett + Goth + Drifloon Votes

zf said:
Gothita: Ban

Not much to say outside of what others have already said about Gothita. The standard RestTalk set switches in and traps most passive / weak special attackers, effectively strangling diversity in the metagame. Variants of this set allow it to trap more (Charm, 16 SpD) or alleviate problems with Pursuit trapping / Dark type setup bait (TBolt, Substitute). Scarf and Evio sets just add another layer of unpredictability to an already strong mon.

Diglett: No ban

"Classic" Diglett cores from ORAS, barring Mienfoo+Diglett, are no longer viable or do not need Diglett's support for sweeping. Obviously Diglett still has a large list of pokemon it can trap, but lacks the bulk to switch in directly and, as stated above, doesn't really have any amazing partners with U-Turn (Fletchling, Vullaby in ORAS) that force switches to Diglett-weak checks. At the moment, Diglett is manageable because the strain it puts on teambuilding is much less than it did last generation.

Drifloon: Keep it banned

While the burn nerf certainly hurt Drifloon, it's still too strong in the current metagame. I believe none of its sets are completely overbearing like Acro+WoW was last generation, but the addition of Hex+WoW as a viable set and the lack of overlap between checks to each set push it over the edge. For example, electrics / RestTalkers are good checks to Acro+WoW but fail to check Hex+WoW sets. Because it's impossible to know what Drifloon is running, it's tough to effectively check while playing and puts heavy strain on teambuilding, forcing players to run at least one check to each set.
macle said:
ban gothita and diglett

i believe trapping in general is an uncompetitive aspect of pokemon because it restricts team building heavily and has no counters in the game. It removes skill from the game by causing lots of 50/50 too.

free floon

im currently on the fence about floon and since i cant 100% say it should be banned, im voting to free it. WOW nerf hurt a lot but its still a bitch but is it really a broken bitch? im not sure and i dont think anyone has really convinced me that its still broken.
quote said:
Ban Gothita

It restricts a good portion of the meta from even existing and sets up on numerous things to the point where you can literally lose if you lack a physically offensive dark-type or strong enough physical attacker. On top of that, it can run a Scarf set to mix up what it can beat which makes playing against it a bit more difficult at times.

Keep Drifloon Banned

Incredibly versatile, it truly requires multiple Pokemon to check it properly because of the unpredictability of its sets. While the Acro set isn't as good as it used to be because of the Burn nerf, it can still do the job fairly well, spreading burns and wearing most threats down pretty well. The CM set is also devastating because you're outspeeding the entire metagame while dealing out large damage. I just don't think our metagame is in a position to be able to handle everything it can do.

Do Not Ban Diglett

Diglett is still potent but I don't feel like it's as good this gen because most of its originally well-known partners don't need it, and there is an increase in threats that it can't fight effectively, including numerous Pokemon that boost their speed or commonly run Scarf. It can still run a fantastic combo using slow voltturn, but overall I don't feel like that's effective enough to warrant a ban.
celestavian said:
Keep Drifloon Banned - Drifloon is a Pokemon that we banned last generation, which carried over to SuMo when we kept our banlist from ORAS. We banned it because it had the ability to stall out almost every Pokemon in the metagame with a combination of burn damage, Berry Juice, Substitute, and Recycle. This generation brings with it a nerf to burn damage, which makes that old strategy far less viable now. However, Drifloon has not gotten any more manageable despite that, as that one powerful set has given way to multiple, varied sets that are just as powerful combined as old Drifloon was. The original stalling set still destroys every physical attacker that is not Ponyta or Mudbray, since the burn attack drop was left untouched. CM Hex is another set untouched by the burn nerf, since it still gains double power against burned targets. There is also the CM + 3 Attacks set, which has the coverage, typing, and bulk to set up and sweep against many different team compositions. These sets have mostly unique checks, with only a few Pokemon such as Magnemite being able to check all of them. However, with such a short list of reliable checks and counters, it is easy to offer the team support necessary to make Drifloon shine. It is still a huge pain to deal with and should be kept banned.

Do Not Ban Diglett - Diglett has been a controversial Pokemon since near the end of ORAS, but I believe that it is no longer potent enough to warrant a ban. Diglett's main issues in comparison to Gothita are the inability to switch into the Pokemon it wants to trap, as well as not being able to trap all non-Ghost-types which limits its targets. Diglett's frailty means that it can only truly function as a revenge killer, since it requires a few very specific situations to even have a chance to switch in otherwise. This allows you a little bit of counterplay against Diglett, as it cannot immediately switch into its marks and remove them like Gothita can. This means that those Pokemon which Diglett can trap are still useful, and do not have their existence invalidated by Diglett. I still think that trapping in general leads to many undesirable metagame influences, but Diglett does not stand out enough to me to make it more than just really good.

Ban Gothita - Gothita has been a really oppressive force in the metagame ever since the bulky CM set gained traction. It has the ability to switch into nearly every special attacker and wall in the metagame, set up on them, and then destroy them with a boosted Psyshock. From there, it doesn't really matter if Gothita sweeps or not, since it accomplished its primary goal of removing that Pokemon. This is a very powerful strategy, with almost no counterplay. The only way to consistently beat Gothita is to never give it the chance to set up, which is extremely difficult since it can just trap in the Pokemon it wants to face. This has resulted in the severe decline of most defensive walls, as they cannot do anything to stop Gothita from setting up on it. There is also Gothita's Choice Scarf set, which while nowhere near as potent as the CM set, can put in work against offense by trapping frail or weakened threats and knocking them out. Gothita has been a terrible influence on the metagame, and I believe that it should be banned.
op said:
Ban Gothita: Gothita has become too powerful and too restricting to be a part of a healthy meta. It can switch into and beat a massive number of special attackers and singlehandedly forces a large number of pokemon to run otherwise largely inefficient sets or not be seen at all. Not only that, but a strong enough physical attacker to OHKO Gothita has become almost a requirement for every team. To top it all off, it have a great Scarf set that only increases the number of things it can trap and its unpredictableness.

Keep Drifloon banned: I feel Drifloon is also too powerful and too restricting on teambuilding. It has an incredible amount of sets and roles it can fulfill and it excels in each one. Drifloon forces you to include multiple checks for its many sets and then still performs well because all of its checks for one set can lose to a different one. The changes since Drifloon's last suspect have not been enough for it to be a part of a healthy meta, and I feel it should remain banned.

Do not ban Diglett: Diglett is hard to get into play, isn't very strong, and allows many of the most threatening pokemon to setup after trapping anything. I feel Diglett is certainly balanced in actual game play and I don't think it limits teambuilding to an unhealthy extent. It's only gotten much worse since its suspects in ORAS and I don't think it should be banned.
heysup said:
Ban Gothita

In my opinion, this is the easy one. Basically, just restating what I said in my previous posts, the Dark-types in the tier are very powerful and Eviolite Gothita traps both priority Fighting-types while being able to switch in. It's also got the potential to trap any stallish Pokemon without some form of haze/phaze, and most notably, Pokemon like Staryu or Drilbur to stop spinning. It's even customize-able to the extent it can run HP fire and Trap Ferroseed, or even run HP Ground to trap many of the Diglett targets such as Magnemite. I've even been using Scarf Gothita with Sleep Talk, HP Fire, and Psychic so I can switch straight into Foongus. The amount of 50/50s, with basically 0 risk for your opponent, is ridiculous. Consider this situation, you have a Croagunk, they have a Carvahna and Goth. You are now in a ridiculous scenario. You either Vacuum Wave and hope they stay in or you double switch. If you double switch to a non-Pursuiter, you are now 50/50 to die most likely (carvanha will probably 2hko most Pokemon), then you also can't even double switch back since you're trapped. Even if you have hazards up and somehow get Gothita in range of an SBomb or Knock Off KO, eventually all they need to do is sacrifice something to your Croagunk that isn't Carvahna. Like being able to trap almost every special attacker is ridiculous in its own right, but this extra shit like Fighting-types is crazy. I swear if i see one more HP Poison Goth......


Keep Drifloon Banned
This is the real doozy. What it basically comes down to is Drifloon's ability to be a high tier check/counter/pivot/sweeper while also being able to be a top tier spin blocker and hazard abuser in its own right. I think there are definitely ways to shut drifloon down most of the time, but often, you find yourself in a predicament if you guess the set wrong. Magnemite can switch in only to be set up on by CM or knocked off. Chinchou is even easier. Pawniard/darks for the most part get burned or HP fighted by most sets, though sometimes they're needed to get past the occasional Hex/Tbolt sets. Vullaby, Carvahna, Scraggy, for example, generally have a group of counters that ALWAYS counter them. Spritzee and Snubbul, for example, counter Scarf and DD scraggy no matter the moveset. Timburr, Cottonee, and Croagunk will almost always counter Carvahna. Vullaby, though many of the NP Counters lose to phys and vice versa, there are still ways to get around both, such as Onix and Spritzee. The argument that Drifloon doesn't have the same immediate power is valid for Carvahna, but Carvanha can't switch into shit. The other two are pretty weak without their set up moves, I think a 80-130 BP Ghost move from ~14-16 SpA is pretty powerful, so is a 110 BP Acrobatics. While I'm not making the argument, necessarily, that Drifloon is better than these sweepers, I think the issue is that it does it WHILE fulfilling multiple other roles, most notably, spin blocking. This means that, barring defog or good prediction with Staryu, you're going to be stuck with hazards and a wincon that abuses them. Carvanha, Scraggy, Vullaby, and even smashers like Shellder, Omanyte, and Tirtouga can barely enter the game without losing their sweeping potential. Floon has access to 20 HP recovery and infinite ability to go +2 Speed repeatedly. Is this too much? I'm still not sure if this just makes it the best Pokemon in the metagame or legitimately broken. It's power level is nowhere near last generation, in that it can't just 6-0 teams as much because of its ability to stall out things that it doesn't kill, but that's not to say that it can't still do what it's best at.

The real back breaker for me is that it's more like Gligar than Vullaby. Vullaby, as a sweeper, cannot do much mid-early game. However, Gligar can counter most things mid game and still sweep late game. Drifloon is more similar to Gligar in that it can check things, burn things, and spinblock until it cleans late game with its attack. While not as devastating as Gligar, it's got the unpredictability down too. Gligar had access to Baton Pass, so does Floon. Floon, however, can attack from either its special side or its physical side. It's special side can usually bypass counters such as Magnemite, Chinchou, Mudbray, and even Pawniard and Staryu depending on its set. Physical side crushes things like Munchlax, Cottonee, Snivy, and has a general easier time OHKOing stuff off of the bat, not to mention there's no flying immune Pokemon.

Do Not Ban Diglett

Diglett is basically a specific wall breaker with no switch in capacity. I generally prefer using wall breakers that have other utility like Doduo which can switch into Foongus, Cottonee, and sparingly into weaker attackers like Croagunk Drain Punches or Timburr Mach Punches. Diglett's only utility is electric immunity, but all common users have a 50/50 shot to just OHKO it anyway.

I think Diglett is very much set up bait and easy to force out. Diglett has low attack, and if a Pokemon is not frail it will have an opportunity to launch a powerful attack or set up.

Regarding Memento, Diglett has 4mss already - it CAN Memento, but that means it's lacking Sludge Bomb, Sub, Sucker, or Slide, all of which mean it's not entirely as effective at doing its job. Frankly, against an equally skilled player / team builder, Diglett's job is often sometimes regulated to just revenge killing already weakened Pokemon. I think its a bit absurd to say that a situation like: Pokemon A is KOed by Pokemon B, Diglett revenges Pokemon B, then Pokemon C comes out and sets up on Diglett, but Diglett Mementos is a broken scenario. You can't claim that Diglett has done it's job but also claim Pokemon B didn't. Diglett generally needs a sacrifice or support to actually do its job without sacrificing - this is not that easy to do, despite Foo being great at it, there's lots of Pokemon it can't just pivot out of. Pokemon B and C actually win that exchange (albeit in a vacuum).

This is also ignoring the fact that Snivy and Zigzagoon don't give 3 shits about Memento and some smashers can still sweep handily late game with +2 Speed.

Furthermore, when you consider that not all "set up" Pokemon is stat boosting, but also hazard stacking, Memento is useless. I'm pretty sure both Omanyte and Kabuto get two solid turns to set up Rocks then either Spike or Spin respectively. Or just KO it outright after setting up Rocks. What was once its trap bait has now, since the Weak Armor buff, turned the table and used Diglett as set up bait. Dwebble probably gets 3 turns.

However,perhaps if the metagame shifts are significant enough, Diglett may find itself too much to handle.
star said:
1) Keep Drifloon Banned

Despite the wisp nerf, drifloon remains one of the premier spin blockers in the tier and unlike other options like pumpkaboo it is also a very potent offensive threat. It can run a multitude of sets from stall acro/hex to cm two attack to even knock physical. It is impossible to prep for each combination and its sheer versatility and amazing ability in unburden make it hard to stop.

2) Do Not Ban Diglett

Diglett really isn't broken in this current metagame. I'd be open to visiting it later but right now it finds itself rather weak. It is a wallbreaker that unlike gothita has no capability to actually switch in to things. It's typing is nice as an elec immune but all electric types in the tier carry a move that ohkos it. I just don't see it as the S ranked threat it was in ORAS.

1) Ban Gothita

lol. Gothita is able to switch in with ease into the things it wants to trap (foongus, marinara, spritz) if its running the CM set which has gained traction. It basically forces every team to run a dark to avoid being swept. The viability of the scarf sets and even the evio attacker set is still fantastic to their job trapping staryus, slow fighters and still switching in on foongus. Goth is simply too versatile in its coverage and even cm set move options and traps too much of the meta to be healthy.
fiend said:
Gothita is frankly absurd. It warps the meta around it since it can switch into almost everything it wants to trap, and has an extremely unhealthy effect on the meta. Not to mention it has the ability to remove a variety of otherwise great Pokemon from the match and make them a liability, to such an extent that it makes a number of set up sweepers incredibly hard to manage. It is so incredibly flexible, amazingly effective, and does little to reward good play outside of guess if people will double to their Dark-type and Pursuit you. I think my rmt (it's rad) is proof enough of what it does and how stupid it is.
Ban Gothita.

Diglett is another trapper and is hated because it is good at trapping! And while some find that reason enough to call for its ban, I feel that this is an inadequate reason (I'll note that ADV OU is an interesting though very imperfect comparison for the situation). So far in gen 7, Diglett has proven to be far less effective than last gen. Fletchling's lackluster viability, Vullaby's amazing sweeper sets, and almost every other sweeper in the tier really not needing Diglett has really made it less good. Simply put, most of ORAS's Diglett cores are less effective and generally a waste of a teamslot as of now, and most importantly have had an impressively small effect on the metagame. In fact I would almost go so far to say that this suspect is almost entirely fueled by feelings leftover from ORAS and not the current metagame, simply because Diglett as a mild at best effect on the metagame. A case can be made for Voltturn into Diglett being broken but that leaves me unconvinced as of now, as no teams have appeared with this (Vullaby makes people scared to U-turn). Diglett is decently easy to set up on as well (Vulla mention again, Scraggy, Dwebble hazards, etc), notably hard to get into play and therefore not nearly as reliable. Diglett's pressure on team building is pretty damn manageable too, and while different than that of Pawniard or Magnemite or Sun sweeper Bellsprout, it is of a comparable magnitude. Generally Diglett has proven to be a fine Pokemon in the tier--not infrequently the weak point in sweeper oriented teams and as difficult as ever to get into play.

There are several legitimate grievances to have with Diglett, yet I feel that all of these legitimate issues with Diglett are not strong enough factors for me to vote for Diglett's ban.
Keep Diglett Free.

Drifloon is kinda a shitty Pokemon to talk about. Drifloon is generally hard to deal with, but far from impossible to manage. However Drifloon is absurdly bulky while not even having an Eviolite, which is in itself alarming. Drifloon also has a great movepool--Hex, Wisp, Recycle, Knock Off, Acrobatics, Calm Mind, Thunderbolt, Defog, all the Hidden Powers ofc, Tailwind, Baton Pass, Memento, Thunder Wave, Magic Coat, and Sucker Punch (admittedly the last 3 are just parts of novelty sets I've only considered using but never built with, and after the HPs are rare at best moves!)--leaves Drifloon wish plenty of room to maneuver. What's more of an issue is how most of Drifloon's sets have different counters with minimal overlap, and that almost always the set being run is pretty hard to tell. I've been fooled by a surprise Knock Off more than once, and have lost games where AcroFloon was the set of choice instead of what appeared to be HexFloon. Frequently otherwise skilled matches have devolved to a game of "Guessing the Floon set!" which is rather skill-less and all around a shitty situation. While it may not stall out Pokemon nearly as well, Drifloon still spreads burns like no other and is faster than the rest of the meta half the time. And with all of normals in the tier that are a) frail as hell b) not appreciative of being burnt or c) generally exploitable by very good and splashable Pokemon, e.g. fighting-types [most fall are a combination of a, b, or c] a mono attacking set with Hex is pretty damn viable. Not to mention the only other good Hex switch ins suffer from the same issues. Oh, and I'll mention it again--most of these checks and counters lose to Acrobatics sets!

And with the addition of a quality ghost type into a tier which has few good spinners and a good number of very good spikers, the tier has become very hazard oriented. Most Defog users of the tier are bad too, with Drifloon being one of the best. Even if one claims that Drifloon is not broken, merely just the best Pokemon in the tier, one has to justify such a drastic centralization around hazards spurred by the inclusion of a hard to reliably check, new best Pokemon in the tier. If one has issues with Vullaby than you should really hate Drifloon then.
Ban Drifloon.
mambo said:
ban diglett
ban gothita
ban drifloon
sken said:
Keeo Drifloon banned

The only thing that has made Drifloon worse is the wow nerf, which isn't that big of a deal compared to all the things that have shifted in its favor, such as the absence of porygon making hex sets much better, and cm offensive is really good with hp fighting for pawniard or thunderbolt for water types and vullaby. Its incredible spinblocking ability makes it really difficult to remove hazards and worth a mention too.

Do not ban Diglett

Diglett is a good pokemon in lc and a great trapper, but it can't switch into any of the mons that it wants to trap and needs either to revenge kill stuff or to get into the field via volt-turn to trap mons. Volt-turn has became a bit worse with timburr being many times a better fighting-type than mienfoo, the introduction of mudbray as a better mag/elekid check, the preparation of many teams against staryu which indirectly affects chinchou,etc. Fletchling gone means fletchdig isn't a thing anymore, shellder doesn't need diglett anymore sice razor shell already kills steel-types as it doesn't need ice shard for fletch anymore, np vullaby has heat wave... It just doesn't support things as well as it used to do.

Ban Gothita

Gothita is too good right now. The CM resttalk set can switch into many defensive mons (foongus, mareanie, spritzee...) without giving them a chance, and it can use charm for phisical threats too (mudbray, ponyta...). At the same time the scarf set can check fighting types, staryu, chinchou, ferroseed, archen and other offensive mons at the same time. The difficulty to predict the set makes it really difficult to try to play around, and the huge coverage for scarf sets and options for evio sets make it deserve a ban.
 
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