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LC CCAT--I have to Axew a question (FINISHED)

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by blarajan, Apr 3, 2012.

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  1. Aerrow

    Aerrow hunter
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    Bulky Ponyta.

    It's pretty much decided so maybe we should move on the the next stage?
  2. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Okay, I've finally gotten around to making this post. Ponyta won the last nomination, so let's take a look at our team now:

    Axew (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 68 HP / 220 Atk / 44 Def / 36 SDef / 140 Spd (thanks to prem for the spread)
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Dual Chop
    - Protect
    - Outrage

    Ponyta (F)
    Jolly : Flame Body
    36 HP / 156 Def / 76 SDef / 196 Spd
    - Morning Sun
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Flare Blitz
    - Return

    I don't really think Return is the best move to be completely honest, but we can work on that. With Ponyta, we have an incredible check to opposing Steel-type Pokemon. We also have much necessary bulk and a good check to random physical attacks with Flame Body. Ponyta gives us a solid Misdreavus switch in. It is also really good offense right off the bat. Spreading burn helps a lot as Axew really adores passive damage.

    Where to next? Ponyta kind of makes our team lean towards balanced. That's not a bad thing. In fact, it gives us a lot more options to explore, as we can take typically balanced Pokemon and experiment with different sets. PoJ's or Coma's Misdreavus, for example, or SubPass Mienfoo or something, allows us to explore the metagame while creating an amazing team. We could try and create a solid defensive core with Ponyta (maybe a FWG?), or try out a more bulky offensive build. Well what I do know is we don't hit that hard off the bat, so we do need some preparation before Axew can sweep.

    We have many options at this point. We want hazards since both Ponyta and Axew love them. We probably want to get rid of faster threats, and really heavy hitters. We have a good start though.

    Let's try and make this team good. Really think: What can we do to support Axew's sweep? Do I have an idea that does so in an unconventional way? If I am choosing a standard spread / Pokemon, am I certain it is the best fit for the team?

    We're currently nominating. But I want some discussion too, guys. What do you think we need to make a good team from here? What do you think of Ponyta's moveset? Do we have any other ideas? Your posts don't just have to be nominations. Let's just talk if you want!
  3. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    [​IMG]
    Lileep the man
    move 1: Recover
    move 2: Energy Ball
    move 3: Stealth Rock
    move 4: Hidden Power Rock / Toxic
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Storm Drain
    nature: Calm
    evs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD

    Ok so blarajan hasn't finished his post yet but we can still get started!

    Basically I see a big weakness to two things starting to crop up with the synergy of Axew / Ponyta, and those are bulky Water-types and Hippopotas. I would like a Pokemon to help us deal with sand at the very least, and Lileep will definitely help (and can crack through Hippopotas, something our two other teammates can't necessarily do reliably). More importantly is Lileep in handling bulky Water-types; if we want to make the most use of Axew, we need something that can take Scalds from Chinchou and force Staryu out as well. Finally, it provides us with some helpful support from Stealth Rock, which is ever useful to Axew (one could argue that Axew is an inefficent sweeper without Stealth Rock support, as well).

    Hidden Power Rock allows us to have a secondary Murkrow check (we'll want a more reliable one, of course) while still retaining damage to Snover on the switch (but mostly we have Ponyta for that). It also allows us to get hazards up more reliably if the opponent is using Natu. Personally, it's a move I've tested and loved, but I know there will of course be naysayers and I will see Toxic or the more risky Ancientpower are both viable. This can be tweaked after the team is finished depending on what we need, but due to the offensive nature of our team so far, I think Hidden Power Rock can help us maintain momentum rather than slowing us down as Toxic might do.
  4. comatthew6

    comatthew6 Uther's Noble [Ball]Sack
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    I was talking to RayJay before and he pointed out a weakness to RestTalk Chinchou, one of the biggest threats in terms of bulky waters. The weakness to Hippopotas also sucks, but I think I might have a solution to our problems that isn't weak to Toxic:

    Misdreavus (F) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Levitate
    EVs: 196 HP / 116 Def / 156 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Heal Bell
    - Shadow Ball
    - Perish Song / Will-O-Wisp / Toxic
    - Pain Split

    Ponyta abso-fricking-lutley will hate Toxic if it has to switch in multiple times during a match (with the ever-so-popular Mienfoo, it probably will be too). This set is as bulky as fuck and it can force Pokemon that tend to stall right out of the battle. It can keep going and going with Pain Split (especially if the opponent decides to heal up) and these numbers allow Misdreavus to hit 25 / 22 / 27 defenses, pretty damn good with an IMMUNITY to three attacking types, in comparison to Lileep's one (not to say that Lileep is a bad Pokemon; in fact, it is very good! I'm just trying to show Rayjay up ;)).

    Heal Bell allows Misdreavus to rid the team of status conditions, and with the style of this team (balanced with an endgame sweeper), it should be imperative to be able to have a Heal Bell user on the team. Will-O-Wisp or Toxic gives Misdreavus the ability to slow down the opponent's team, but as Ray Jay kindly pointed out, it would lose momentum, and Perish Song would allow us to keep it by forcing the opponent to switch or risk losing one of their valuable Pokemon.

    You also might say that this set is weak to Scraggy (because it is). However, if it switches in, you can simply hit it with Perish Song and switch off to Ponyta, as Scraggy will have a limited amount of turns to try to inflict damage (Protect on Axew also helps). This team with either Lileep or Misdreavus will be weak to Scraggy, but at least this set gives the team a fighting chance (at this moment).
  5. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    seeing as i dont have a nomination that works better for this team (well i could nom stuff like lo scraggy but im pretty sure it wont win and we are going for a balanced team anyway) im going to just post in favor of misdreavus

    while lileep is not bad by any means but for one i like unorthodox sets. coma's missy is completely unordinary and seems very good at checking things like drillbur,which is needed for this team. heal bell will be a great asset to the team beacause now we dont have to care too much about switching axew into restalk missy. lileep might be useful as a water check, but besides random scald burns, water types are generally just set up bait for axew.

    also a scraggy is easily solvable with something like scarf murkrow or scarf mienfoo so i wouldnt worry about that too mcuh
  6. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    The general trend as of now seems to be adding a defensive backbone to our currently offensive pair, Axew / Ponyta. Rayjay's Lileep provides a solid switch in to bulky Water-type Pokemon that give Axew issues (Scald is a bitch) and that threaten Ponyta. The primary offenders imo are Chinchou and Staryu. With RestTalk Chinchou usage increasing, I can definitely see the viability of Lileep, and expect its overall usage to increase. Stealth Rock is a very very useful thing for an offensive Pokemon such as Axew, so that utility is also important. Furthermore, Sand usage is increasing, so once again, Lileep makes a fantastic Pokemon to have in a Sand based metagame. This would make Snover a scary threat--coincidentally, we have Ponyta, one of the greatest Snover checks in the tier. Lileep seems like an all around fantastic suggestion, as it provides incredible utility with Stealth Rock and its walling capabilities, along with a check for Murkrow AND Drilbur, both of which big threats for our current pair. With HP Rock, it also gives us a bit of creativity.

    Comatthew's Misdreavus is also kind of really anti metagame, and useful for our team. While it doesn't provide the same utility Stealth Rock and special walling capabilities of Lileep, it makes up for it with its strong offensive presence. To be completely honest, I don't really like Misdreavus in this slot. It is a great Pokemon as we all know, but I don't think this particular set is providing that valuable of a service. Heal Bell is a great boon to an offensive Pokemon such as Axew, or a fast bulky Pokemon such as Ponyta, I agree. Assuming we have Lileep, though, we already have no problems taking on Scald. Ponyta is already immune to Burns. It does help with beating Porygon though, as Thunder Wave is gaining popularity. In that regard, Heal Bell Misdreavus is a creative yet still excellent cleric. My main problem with the set is Perish Song, as I don't really think that's too useful in this metagame. With things just hitting hard off the bat, Perish Song doesn't do anything too useful. If we replace Perish Song with HP Fighting, though, then I think this is a fantastic addition to our team. It's a good Mienfoo check though.

    With the two suggestions from RayJay and Comatthew, we are trying to add more bulk on this team, turning it into a rather good balanced team. We can maintain the balanced nature of the team, and explore, well, standard team building with an end game sweeper. Or if we try to explore more offensive suggestions, we can try and create a good balance of bulk and offense to try and figure out the perfect blend for this team.

    There's a lot that we can do with this team from this point out, as both Pokemon chosen are strong, bulky, and offensively threatening. Do we want to try and bulk the team from here on out, creating a solid defensive core to let our offense do what it needs? Or do we want some more bulk with solid offensive Pokemon to maintain momentum? With RayJay's Lileep, we would have an amazing wall that also helps maintain momentum, being threatening to Pokemon such as Larvesta, Murkrow, and Natu with HP Rock.

    Regardless though, I think we should try and focus on creating a team that limits the opponent's ability to respond. Ponyta is already good at stealing momentum, as is RayJay's Lileep. Comatthew's Misdreavus helps us gain momentum through Heal Bell.
  7. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Come on guys...=(
  8. Trakyan

    Trakyan

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    Well, i have two things to suggest. brozor and chinchou they have perfect synergy type/ability wise resisting or being immune to each others weaknesses and booth resist some of the common attack combos, boltbeam in chinchous case and edgequake in bronzors, bronzor also provides stealth rock and chinchou can spread burns to help axew set up. Bronzor also resists all of our duo's weaknesses besides water for ponyta which axew resists, chinchou also resists that and bronzors one weakness(with levitate, of course) is resisted by booth of the two mons already on the team.

    So, im suggesting bronzor/chinchou as mons and my sets probably suck(90% chance its stupid and sucks)

    Bronzor @ Eviolite
    EVs: 4 Atk / 228 Def / 60 HP / 148 SDef / 12 Spd
    Trait: Levitate
    Calm Nature
    -Rest
    -Sleep Talk
    -Gyro Ball
    -Stealth Rock

    Restalk seems like a stupid idea, probably is alot of the time but what gave me the idea is that i find bronzor tends to be worn down by repeated u turns or volt switches or just from switching into attacks from the stuff it counters and just tends to die at some point, often before your ready to fodder it i find, this has worked for me so far but probably needs more testing. The moveset doesnt really matter, im suggesting bronzor for its bulky/typing/ability, other movesets could be used. Stealth rock does what we all know it does, flash cannon>psychic since nothing is immune to it and rest and sleeptalk form restalk which gives the blue disk recovery and something to do during its beuty sleep, oran recycle works too but sacrafices some bulk, probably oran recycle is better though i guess. The EVs and nature optimalize defenses to abuse eviolite, i cant seem to find a way to use all of the EVs so alternate EVs and natures are welcome.

    Chinchou @ Eviolite
    EVs: 76 HP / 132 Def / 72 SAtk / 228 SDef
    Trait: Volt Absorb
    Calm Nature
    -Heal Bell
    -Scald
    -Thunderbolt
    -Volt Switch

    Scald spreads status to help axew set up, heal bell heals our own(works nicely with rest on bronzor), thunderbolt is a nice stab and volt switch lets use switch out of nasty match ups like ferroseed and into something that would love to verse that mon(ponyta) EVs optimalize bulk, eviolite helps with that, volt absorbs helps with healing if we can draw electric attacks. We could turn this into a restalk set.

    Again to make it clear im recomending the mons, alternative sets are more than welcome as replacements. Otherwise I really think these two should be considered, especialy bronzor for its amazing synergy with our duo and chinchou has good synergy with them too and absolutely amazing synergy with bronzor, highlighting they resist boltbeam and edgequake together.

    Anyways sorry if im over repeating this but suggestions for spread/sets are welcome.
  9. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    okay told to do this because we dont want a boring balanced fwg axew ghost scarf team.

    [​IMG]
    Scraggy (M) @ Life Orb Trait: Shed Skin
    EVs: 236 Atk / 36 Def / 212 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Stone Edge
    - Crunch
    - Drain Punch
    - Hi Jump Kick

    basically the same set as last time except i made it so no one can say im taking axews thunder. this is purely a wall breaker. and it packs a punch. it outspeeds standard mienfoo so you CAN drain punch + hjk it for the kill (though you will probably do hjk then drain punch) its 2hkos everything bulky in the meta and ohkos everything thats not. timburr is probably the best counter to this, and it also fucks with our other two teammates so we would probably have to find something to beat that, but this thing will really help axew by weakening EVERYTHING. chinchou isnt going to want to come in and wall, we now can practically beat any mienfoo switch in. larvesta cant take an outrage and hope for the burn because we will lure itin and stone edge its ass. drillbur is still a bitch but thats not too hard to work around with our next teammate. this is cool different, and is going to bring up scraggys usage which needs to happen because i havent seen much scraggy lately :(
  10. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    It has to be done:

    [​IMG]
    Chinchou @eviolite
    EVs: 76 HP, 132 def, 228 sp. def, 60 spe
    Volt Absorb
    Calm (+sp. def, -atk)
    -Discharge
    -Rest
    -Sleep talk
    -heal bell

    Yup, it's the set everybody came to learn this round. While chichou doesn't offer the insane bulk of lileep, or plenty of resistances of misdreavus, it functions as the happy medium between the two. Chinchou handles water types and ices well for axew and ponyta as well as ridding them of any pesky status while still having reliable recovery in rest-talk and stopping murkrow, something that can seriously threat both ponyta and axew. Discharge is over scald, doing decent damage to staryu as well as possibly threatening paralysis, something that can stop special threats, as well as physical, cold.
  11. Jansports

    Jansports

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    As soon as I saw it I liked the Lileep set for two big reasons. FWG. And Stealth Rock.

    I have seen fire types, grass types, and water types in LC. Chinchou is nearly everywhere, Staryu is another water offender. I see lileep in and out of sand, Snover is grass typed as well. But something about seeing these mons is different. I rarely see a full FWG core holding up a team. How could I? Meinfoo, Missy, Bronzor, Murkrow, Vullaby, Croagunk, Scraggy. Baton passers, Shell smashers. The list of 'pretty big deal' in LC is somewhat extensive.

    I am actually personally quite fond of the idea of forming a FWG core supporting a sweeper like Axew that can actually keep in mind all of the threats present in LC.

    The Lileep / Chinchou pair currently nominated provide needed support in the form of rocks / clerical duties both things Axew and ponyta will be wanting for. Good weakness coverage with their typing/abilities offering opprotunities to push the advantage balance offence is likely to build early. (Lileep being able to shrug off about 30 thousands different possible hits and being perhaps the best switch in against chinchou currently, and chincou being a durable cleric and status spreader without giving up huge amount of momentum)

    Possible problems that arise from this however is that lileep itself as well as any possible water-absorbing/nulling ability holder is a free switch on Scald restalk chinchou and Discharge restalk actually stalemates itself or pp stalls. Fighting types are still a big deal (Scraggy Meinfoo Croagunk) And so far nothing is Fond of taking HJKs and specifically in the case of Croagunk / meinfoo, Snover and some Murkrow sets The team has no priority. That is often times not a be all end all crippling weakness it is however something to take note of.

    Also without a spinner it's apparent that staryu isn't a terrible choice as a potential water type, the bog-standard Spin/Recover/Stab/0.5boltbeam serves many teams well and has it's own charm about it.

    Also on that note With Ponyta and Axew as fond of hazards as they are not having a spin blocker is another thing to keep in mind, and while not the most orthodox of clerics The presented Missy set is intresting to me (but I have no real experience with it as of yet)

    ALL that said and I still think the SubPass Meinfoo is a strong contender to eventually make it onto the team, The thing is a momentum retaining machine and that's awesome. (Also Axew receiving a sub into a non threat and garnering 2 free(ish) dances is nasty nasty)
  12. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    I'd like to vouch for myself and point out that none of the above Pokemon can switch into Drilbur or handle Hippopotas with the exception of Bronzor and Lileep. Bronzor is a poor choice for our team as it does not counter Water-types, which is easily the biggest threat at the moment. Although the argument could be made for Chinchou, Chinchou gives us no way of beating opposing Chinchou, who is easily THE bulky Water-type our core has a problem with atm courtesy of Scald.

    Scraggy is an interesting choice, and perhaps I'm a bit biased as you may know I naturally shift towards defensive teams. However, defensive synergy is usually played incorrectly in LC and I believe it currently has an undeserved bad rap. Scraggy is strong but we don't need another physical sweeping partner, especially not one that opens us up to Drilbur and the ever popular sand teams. Blara and I talked and decided on adding Sunny Day to Ponyta for this reason, but adding another thing that loses to Drilbur is not a good choice. Also, to not add Stealth Rock or some form of hazards at this stage is inane, as if we're going to do hazards, we need to make it so that synergistically we can back it up with the rest of the team.

    Overall I just see some hating on FWG cores which is completely undeserved. It's not necessarily the most inventive thing ever, but with the solid pair of Lileep + Ponyta, there is the potential to explore and do an interesting Water-type. Just don't be so closed minded to good sets, people.
  13. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    All right, let's get some voting going!

    Discussion's been great but let's get shit going for the third Pokemon!

    Lileep

    Heal Bell Misdreavus
    Bronzor
    Life Orb Scraggy
    RestTalk Chinchou

    These are the options for this round of voting! Keep in mind this is an incredibly important Pokemon for this round of the CCAT! With it, we know how our team is going. Will it be bulky, focused on a good defensive core to facilitate an end game Axew sweep? Will it be offensive, with some defensive pivots, in order to break through? How will we proceed from here? You need to keep these questions in mind before selecting your vote. Post your vote in bold. Please explain your vote.

    If you vote for a Pokemon but are concerned by its moveset, please indicate that in your explanation of your vote. If enough people select that Pokemon but are concerned by its moveset, we can happily discuss them.

    Here is the current team for your convenience:
    Show Hide


    How should we proceed from here? What do you guys think!
  14. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Yup, I'm going to vote for Lileep.

  15. Trakyan

    Trakyan

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    Bronzor It covers all except water in terms of the duos weaknessess(ponyta) which is covered by axew while his one weakness is covered by booth of the mons. He also checks drillbur and resists edgequake, great synergy with chinchou.
  16. Jansports

    Jansports

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    Lileep: As I've said there is something charming about the thought of making a FWG core to support the 'new' Axew sweeper. And of all the Grass types avaliable (or nom'd) Lileep switches into the ever important scalds and can muster a decent threat to many of the water types found in LC. (Mainly Chinchou and Staryu) As well as not being totally unable to handle other duties. Rocks. Rocks. Rocks. Lileep has reliable recovery, good bulk, and decent switch in options. While by the third mon there should perhaps be a more clear cut team direction Lileep can act as either part of a defensive core for a late Axew sweep, or as a strong pivot for a bulky offense headed up by the little drag and ponyta.

    I am not completely sure HP Rock is the correct choice in a fourth move. It's coverage with Grass/Rock is limited and I feel perhaps Flying would be a better choice considering the number of fighting types that will want to come in to threaten lileep. As eviolite or not a specially defensive rock type is scraggy's dream. But of course as it turns out with movesets we may find ourselves with numerous answers to fighting types by the time the team is finished.
  17. Chieliee

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    lileep because of what rayjay said
  18. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Lileep because RayJay voted for himself and Lileep is a cutie.
  19. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Just a quick note because it seems you are confused and I don't want you and the other people voting to be confused: Chinchou is not on our team right now. Our team right now is Axew and Ponyta.
  20. comatthew6

    comatthew6 Uther's Noble [Ball]Sack
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    Misdreavus because evn though it's going to lose I might as well try
  21. Trakyan

    Trakyan

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    I know, but it seems as if we might add it later. It was just a note.
  22. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Seems like this has been up long enough. The winner is clearly: Ray Jay's Lileep.

    The team as it stands is:

    [​IMG]
    Axew (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Mold Breaker
    EVs: 68 HP / 220 Atk / 44 Def / 36 SDef / 140 Spd
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Dragon Dance
    - Dual Chop
    - Protect
    - Outrage

    [​IMG][​IMG]
    Ponyta (F)
    Jolly : Flame Body
    36 HP / 156 Def / 76 SDef / 196 Spd
    - Morning Sun
    - Will-O-Wisp
    - Flare Blitz
    - Return

    [​IMG]
    move 1: Recover
    move 2: Energy Ball
    move 3: Stealth Rock
    move 4: Hidden Power Rock / Toxic
    item: Eviolite
    ability: Storm Drain
    nature: Calm
    evs: 228 HP / 140 Def / 140 SpD

    I propose two changes to the current standing of the team.

    1) Sunny Day > Return on Ponyta. I believe with this, we will be more easily able to handle Drilbur. Likewise, Ponyta on its own would be more of a threat and possess more longevity with Morning Sun's increased healing. Furthermore, it would be able to better handle bulky waters, even if we currently have Lileep to do that.

    2)
    228 HP / 144 Def / 28 SpA / 64 SpD / 16 Spe for Lileep's EV spread. This one I'm probably just going to do since it's an overall better spread than the one originally suggested.

    What are your thoughts on these changes? Likewise, before we nominate the next teammate, I would like you all to comment on the current standing of the team, what we might want to look out for, and figure out how to go from here. I don't want this to purely go: nomination vote nomination vote. Let's talk about how the team looks, what we might be wary of, etc!

    Get to discussing, guys. And learn to read, Sir. >.<
  23. Tomahawk

    Tomahawk Glory to Arstotzka!
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    Just saying but I wouldn't call Sunny Day Ponyta a good Drilbur check. It's outsped and KOed by Earthquake so you have to Sunny Day on the switchin or something similar, but that's not exactly reliable. Regardless of whether or not you use Sunny Day on Ponyta you're gonna need a Drilbur counter so I'd rather have Return to not rely on mono-Fire coverage.
  24. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Little Cup Leader

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    I agree, Toma, in that Ponyta cannot set up the sun when Drilbur is out under Sandstream, as it is obviously outsped and OHKOed. What about under other conditions? It isn't all that difficult to set up the sun against the majority of a sand team.

    And I'm curious. Where does a Sun boosted Flare Blitz fail in coverage? The only thing that isn't hit that hard that I can think of would be Tirtouga, who we lose to with Return anyways, and Houndour, who isn't very common.
  25. Chieliee

    Chieliee

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    yeah imo boosted flare blitz+ more recovery+ the potential ability to beat drilbur is worth the lack of return.

    THe main threats are now Scraggy, and still Drilbur. SubNP missy with LO is pretty dangerous too, as it OHKO's everything on our team (except for maybe lileep), and Ponyta can only speed tie.

    EDIT: Timburr is also a big threat, dealing as much damage as possible with ponyta/toxicing it with lileep and somehow stalling it out is are our only two ways of dealing with it, both are extremely unreliable

    Tentacool is also free to setup toxic spikes, which means that pretty much all of our mons are crippled when they switch in.

    EDIT: See signature. I PM'd blarajan the mon i want to submit. He'll post it for me one day.
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