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LC CCAT (Version III) [Ladder Race won by iss] See Post #236

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Electrolyte, Jan 29, 2013.

  1. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Where's the soul in soldier on?
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    I'M BACK

    (brjn sry for not telling you but thnx for covering it for me)

    It's kind of depressing how we only have 3 submissions right now. How about some more? I'll move this on to the next stage tomorrow. Get your ideas in soon!
  2. Axisotaku

    Axisotaku

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    Well tbh right now the team kinda needs a spinner, and with 3 electric weakness drilbur fits in very very nicely. The only other option could be Baltoy

    [​IMG]
    Baltoy @ eviolite
    Trait: Levitate
    Lever: 5
    Evs: 196 HP / 236 Def / 36 SpA / 36 Spd
    Nature: Bold is usualy used for the common fighting types but I think Calm could be used if you want better odds vs Magnemite's flash cannon (same with EVs)

    ~ Rapid Spin
    ~ Stealth Rock
    ~ Earth Power
    ~ Toxic / Psychic
  3. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    I am in 100% support of this Baloty. It completely shuts down Drilbur in sand not running X scissor or Shadow Claw thanks to levitate and the ground type. It also has access to the same moves as Drilbur to support the team, and adds the first part of a defensive backbone to this very offensive set. Physically defensive is imo the best set here because it shrugs off resisted attacks such as the common fighting moves found in the tier. Overall I like the uniqueness of the set and think it is worth using. Obviously it lacks the more offensive capabilities of Drilbur, but everything has a downside.
  4. Goddess Briyella

    Goddess Briyella My mentee Winry is now Queen of GP
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    From my experience, Baltoy is not very good in LC due to the high prevalence of Misdreavus and Murkrow, who can Taunt it and otherwise set up on it and/or kill it off rather easily, very similarly to the way they prey on Ferroseed and Pineco (except it's even worse because Missy and Krow's STABs are super effective on Baltoy). Snover's Blizzard is also a OHKO and it doesn't even need a Scarf to outspeed. Use Baltoy if you like but Drilbur is absolutely the better option in almost every situation I can think of if you are considering Baltoy to be a substitute for Drilbur. I always successfully used opposing Baltoy for setup bait by having Misdreavus Taunt it and then proceed to setup with Nasty Plot and then sweep the team rather easily. I wouldn't use Baltoy in LC at all. Hope my input is helpful or at least thought-provoking! ^_^
  5. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    Ah crap completely slipped my mind that Misdreavus is the queen of LC having snatched most used poke spot this month. In that case I pull back my 100% support behind Baltoy andnow I back Drilbur for the spot. My bad, can't believe I missed the great Misdreavus...
  6. mikel

    mikel @ air baloon
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    to everyone worrying about being weak to electric, note that the current team has two effective chinchou lures in db drifloon and ss tirt, both of which can beat chou assuming it switches in on you as you smash/use acro. elekid is pretty much a non-issue being pretty weak and beaten by all three mons already on the time once they've set up.

    that said, i like the sound of running scarf snover and solid rock tirt together. it gives a fantastic check to sand, a solid revenge killer, and still leaves tirt able to set up on weaker attacks and more importantly on sub roost krow. you lose the ability to set up on sr dril, but any good sand player will play around that as it's a fairly obvious ploy.

    ps: with solid rock, bulky foo does 78% max with drain punch which is pretty cool
  7. kingmidas

    kingmidas

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    Hey mikel have not seen you here right now it is me kingmidas from PS and one thing I hate is how this place on the slot has become hey lets forget about the type of team hyper offense no mons with no offensive presence aka no baltoy guys no point in even putting a mon up if you have not read the current team and type we have here
  8. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    Even though, I don't think he expressed it that well, (Calm down and learn to use full stops man!) I agree with kingmitus's point. Baltoy has no offensive presence at all, which really defeats the purpose of this CCAT. This team is meant to wear down possible counters with powerful attacks. Baltoy doesn't really accomplish this.
  9. Shouting

    Shouting

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    Drilbur is not a reliable spinner at all. It can't switch in on anything without being 2HKO'd. Yes, you can hit Misdreavus with Earthquake, but how are you going to get in to spin? it's electric immunity is useless because Magnemite 2HKOs, and I'm sure any offensive Chinchou OHKOs. It also loses to / can't switch in on Lileep and Hippo, the two most popular Stealth Rock setters in the tier. Alot of people say that Drilbur is so great because it bypasses Sturdy from Dweeble, but Drilbur doesn't even OHKO with Rock Slide so it's kind of a moot point.

    Payback Tentacool is probably more reliable overall, but an interesting option we could potentially consider is Anorith. It can spin, set up Stealth Rock, is faster and has better attack than Drilbur and is just about as bulky if not more than Drilbur. It might not have the best resistances, but it's not like Drilbur is packing any great ones either.
  10. Delver

    Delver I got the runs like Jagger

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    one hand s holding chinese food so i'll xpand/edit this later: anorith ftwbro

    Ok to expand: Drilbur's defenses arent *that* much worse than staryu, and with a bit of investment (I'm currently looking at a 156 Atk/ 76 Def / 36SpD / 212+ Spe) gives it comparable bulk to Staryu with an eviolite while still maintaing its niche as a non-sand-team sand sweeper (if that makes sense). Staryu and Drilbur are both very strong. Drilbur has the ability to switch into the electric-type attacks aimed at our other 3 mons; and it outspeeds most chinchou and can threaten it out via EQ (at worst it can speed tie, but most dont run the full+ investment). Staryu does a better job spinning but it compounds a weakness to electricity (4/6 mons thus far - if its included.) Mikel made a good point that most of the viable electric types in the tier (read: chinchou) are actually handled *sort of* by the team. Personally I dont like the idea of compounding a weakness. If we can answer it without sacrificing elsewhere on the team, why would we. Drilbur brings Rapid Spin and Stealth Rocks without sacrificing offensive momentum.


    Check Dat Nomination
    Anorith @ Eviolite
    Trait: Battle Armor
    Level: 5
    EVs: 236 Atk / 36 SDef / 236 Spd
    Jolly Nature
    - Rock Blast
    - Stealth Rock
    - Rapid Spin
    - Knock Off


    Anorith also does this, and provides style points and actually hits like a truck. Without rambling for a day, it provides a lot of support the team needs in the form of Spinning, Knock Off, and Rocks without deviating too far from the offensive nature of the team thanks to 18 speed and 19 attack. I mean its not the most "over whelming offensive" mon in the teir but I think the support it provides to the team is noteworthy and will allow our final two mon's to round off the teams offensive edges.
  11. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Where's the soul in soldier on?
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    Agh I haven't had time to update it today so I'll do it tomorrow. In the meantime, I'll give my thoughts on the current topic-

    We've really worked ourselves into a defensive ditch here. We're currently super weak to hazards and electric types- and yet our job with offense is still only halfway done. However, we can not stray from our main goal, which is to overwhelm with offense, and here's what causes me to say this.

    I would first like to comment on Anorith.

    My problem with Anorith is that I don't feel as if it really helps fix the current problems of the team. We're weak to hazards and Electric / Steel types as well as some select physical walls. Anorith can spin, yes, but it itself is weak to Stealth Rock and has no recovery- which limits its ability to come in multiple times to spin. Such a spinner is even more unreliable than Drilbur, so it is outclassed in that regard. It also works poorly against Steel / Electric types- and does not contribute to the offensive effort. In fact, it's even weak to Steel, making it a poor answer to Magnemite and Bronzor. The only thing it can contribute is hazards and spinning support, but even that is outclassed by Drilbur, who can also deal with Steel / Electric types with more reliability. I don't mean to attack you, Delver, but Anorith is a poor choice because the only thing of relevance that it brings to the table is hazard control- which, is not only outclassed by Drilbur, but also irrelevant to our actual theme, which is to make a team about concentrated offense. Right now, we have been driven to the point where not having a spinner means certain failure, so we're debating spinners- but we can not forget to connect each pokemon with the main idea in order to find a pokemon that spins and covers a defensive weakness.

    An even more extreme case is Baltoy. It's quite obvious that Baltoy's only niche pretty much is to spin and set hazards (and perhaps wall Sand sweepers). It does not, at all, contribute to the main idea of the project. (again, I don't mean to attack, just pointing out my thoughts here) Baltoy is not a bad pokemon in essence, but it has no spot on the team even if it is a more reliable spinner than Drilbur because it has no offensive capabilities at all and really drags down any momentum and offense we plan to have. Its Earth Power is weak and its Toxic totally throws away our offensive pressure. Its defenses might make it a more suitable sponge but none of that matters if it can't do much but spin.

    For these reasons, I also disagree with Tentacool. As I said earlier, spinning should not be our main goal right now. We're still looking for pokemon that can cover our offensive holes and hit past walls that trouble us. Tentacool does not do this. It's a defensive pokemon that's meant to tank types that we have no trouble handling right now, and only makes us weaker to Chinchou and Magnemite. We can't forget about offense just because this thing can spin.

    Because Drilbur covers our offensive holes in Electric / Steel types, I think it is the best contender for our team right now. Its ability to spin and set hazards is also an important boon, but it's not the main reason why I feel as if it suits the team best. It adds to the offense- and it fulfills our goal.
  12. Shouting

    Shouting

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    Like I just said, Drilbur is not a way to deal with Electric and Steel types. Magnemite 2HKOs it, Chinchou OHKOs it, Elekid 2HKOs it, I can go on and on with pretty much any electric type in the tier.

    Life Orb Pawniard 2HKOs Drilbur without any setup. Eviolite Swords Dance sets will always OHKO Drilbur after Stealth Rock with Sucker Punch. Drilbur obviously isn't beating Ferroseed anytime soon, Magnemite 2HKOs Drilbur too so I'm really not seeing the part where Drilbur can deal with these types. The only steel type it can deal with is Bronzor, and even then it gets Toxic'd or gets a Flash Cannon which is actually a 4HKO.

    If we really want to cover Electric and Steel types in one slot we should probably just use Magnemite itself. It can check Ferroseed, Bronzor, other Magnemite, Pawniard lacking Brick Break, and even Elekid if it lacks Cross Chop. We miss out on Chinchou, but it's really not a big deal because Chinchou is fairly easy to check.
  13. blarajan

    blarajan holla ladies #£14000 #bling #sparkle #bitchesonmydick
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    Less of these pansy complaints please =(. Why does it matter if Drilbur is 2HKOed by some stuff if you only need it to come in once? For example: Magnemite v Drifloon w/ Unburden. Drifloon uses Destiny Bond to pressure Magnemite, either nabbing it with it, or smashing it with a Hidden Power we use to put it in range for, say, Murkrow's Sucker Punch. Or, Chinchou is annoying? Let's see it tank AcroGem or repeated Brave Birds. I want to once again emphasize the point of the team. SMASH THROUGH STUFF. If Drilbur can only switch into a Pokemon once, then switch in once, force it to take hazard damage and put it in range for something else. Drilbur is definitely 100% the Pokemon we want right now. SR, Spin, EQ to threaten everything that threatens our mons, and high Speed. I really don't think we should use inferior Pokemon such as Anorith or Tentacool or anything similar for this role when Drilbur is the Pokemon to use. It makes us weak as fuck to Ice-type Pokemon but "whatever." We can fix our Snover weakness.
  14. Shouting

    Shouting

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    Drilbur is unreliable if it can only come in once, that's why it matters. Predict wrong, or switch it in at the wrong time and it's dead.

    The problem with you saying that Drilbur forces things out and makes it take hazard damage is that Drilbur IS the hazard setter. If Drilbur is forcing out something to take damage, it would have already needed to come in and use Stealth Rock! So switching in Drilbur into a Magnemite when you're at...30-40% health is obviously not a good idea, you're going to get killed. THIS is why Dribur is unreliable - it can only come in once, it can't Stealth Rock, Rapid Spin, and Attack with only one switch in attempt, it's just not happening. If you opt to Stealth Rock on a switch, just to die on a next switch in, what's the point? We might as well use something bulkier that can come in multiple times to set it up. If you're not using Stealth Rock, we won't have hazard damage, which is a big deal in an offensive team.

    Magnemite can most definitely take Gem Acrobatics + Hidden Power Fire + A sucker punch and even have health to spare, so it should be a target, but Drilbur really doesn't scare Magnemite too much, especially if it carries Hidden Power Ice. Rest-Talk Chinchou can also handle multiple attacks well, and Drilbur has an easier time switching in on Chinchou, but it is still incredibly risky as not only are you 2HKO'd but you face a burn which would literally make Drilbur death fodder.

    Just because we're using offense doesn't mean we can throw reliability out the window, and a wall that is really bulky is not the only thing that can be reliable, we need something to deal with the trouble spots of flying abuse and Drilbur clearly doesn't do that as reliably as others.
  15. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    The idea of Drilbur is to get it in as early as possibly to set up Stealth Rock and hopefully keep hazards off the field with Rapid Spin. I have played using a variant of this team with the first 3 mons with Drilbur on the team and it is nowhere near as bad as you're making it out to be. It has always set up rocks, used Spin and at least got one Earthquake off on a threat. Most of the time it does more than that. The thing is, once it's done it's job it doesn't matter if it dies because we're using Hyper Offense. With a powerful Earthquake it does a great job keeping the offensive momentum and if it dies doing that, we'll switch in another powerful attacker to continue where Drilbur left off. Most of the time with Hyper Offense I'd rather just outright attack and die than switch to another Pokemon.

    We're probably not going to switch Drilbur into the Electric types you mention, we're more likely going to try and Destiny Bond them or attack them with Floon/Krow and then Drilbur can revenge when they die.
  16. Shouting

    Shouting

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    Getting it in early really doesn't make it any bulkier, it's still pretty fragile. Like I said, if you take 60%~ from coming in to stealth rock, how can you find the opportunity to spin / check other things later?

    If you're using it as a fast stealth rock setter that is also pretty powerful, then Anorith fits the bill perfectly because it is faster and has more attack than Drilbur thus it can set stealth rock faster, hit just about as hard if not harder, and spin? If Drilbur can't deal with Electric and Steel types why are we even suggesting Drilbur when it is both slower and has less attack than Anorith? Both have about the same longevity, and Anorith can lure out Magnemite quite well and 2HKO it with Brick Break.

    We also need to keep in mind that Destiny Bond is good and all, but it doesn't solve all the problems we have. Pawniard can beat Drifloon if we have Hidden power Ice regardless of Destiny bond. Chinchou has a chance to burn with scald, Ferroseed can Thunder Wave, Magnemite that carry Magnet Rise can potentially stall out Destiny Bond PP so you can either come out on top or you can lose. Bronzor and Lileep usually have toxic, etc.

    So, what I'm saying is that if we want to soften up Electric and Steel types for Murkrow and Drifloon, Drilbur is not the answer because it is a shaky check at best to these types. If we want a fast and offensive hazard setter that can also spin as a bonus, I think Anorith suits the role here better because of it's edge in speed and attack.
  17. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    Yeah, basically what corkscrew and blara have already said but I really can't see how drilbur isn't the best choice for a slot on the team.
  18. Electrolyte

    Electrolyte Where's the soul in soldier on?
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    Alright, so it looks as if we're having some pretty heated discussion, and I'll let this discussion continue, but it's time to get into the VOTING SESSION, so try to reach a decision soon.

    The submissions:
    ~Icicle Fissh's Chinchou
    ~iss's gay Snover- 1
    ~jacobninja's Magnemite- 4
    ~Corkscrew's Drilbur*- 10
    ~Axisotu's Baltoy
    ~Delver's Anorith- 1
    ~kingmitus's Timburr- 1

    Concept (open)



    Team So Far (open)

    [​IMG]
    Murkrow @ Eviolite
    Trait: Prankster
    Level: 5
    EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 20 Def / 20 SpD / 188 Spe
    Jolly nature
    - Substitute
    - Roost
    - Brave Bird
    - Sucker Punch

    [​IMG]
    Drifloon @ Flying Gem
    Trait: Unburden
    Level: 5
    EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spd / 36 SAtk / 4 Def / 4 SDef
    Naive Nature
    - Acrobatics
    - Shadow Ball
    - Substitute / Hidden Power Ice / Hidden Power Fire / Hidden Power something else
    - Destiny Bond

    [​IMG]
    Tirtouga (M) @ Splash Plate
    Trait: Sturdy
    EVs: 84 HP / 212 Atk / 12 Def / 180 Spd
    Adamant Nature (+Atk, -SAtk)
    - Shell Smash
    - Aqua Tail
    - Stone Edge
    - Aqua Jet


    Bonus Point List (open)

    blarajan: +1.0
    Corkscrew: +0.5
    iss: +0.5


    RULES:
    You MAY ONLY VOTE FOR ONE POKEMON.
    You CAN NOT change your vote.
    You CAN NOT vote for yourself.
    I'll give this about a week.

    We have some good, healthy discussion going on. Keep it up guys!

    EDIT:
    Sorry kingmitus! I overlooked your post :/ I'll give you one free vote because of my error :)

    *credit goes to spuds4ever for the set because Corkscrew is nice
  19. kingmidas

    kingmidas

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    what about my timburr and I vote for drilbur
    Electro pay attention to my posts I voted for drilbur too that means four votes
  20. dcae

    dcae naughty list

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    Drilbur
  21. Rowan

    Rowan not a professor
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    Spuds4Ever probably should have the credit for the Drilbur as he nominated it and I just quoted his post from the previous round
  22. Mylo Xyloto

    Mylo Xyloto

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  23. Good_Luck!

    Good_Luck!

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  24. Icicle Fissh

    Icicle Fissh

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    yeah, I can only see one realistic victor from this, and it gets my vote: Drilbur
  25. Nebuchadnezzar

    Nebuchadnezzar

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