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LC Community Create A Team (Step 2-4)

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by Charmander, Feb 6, 2012.

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  1. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Just wanted to mention I wasn't saying a cleric nullifies Toxic Spikes, Croagunk nullifies Toxic Spikes since he absorbs them.

    Also that the Mienfoo set blara and I (but mostly blara) cooked up looks like an awesome partner. /bandwagoning
  2. little gk

    little gk <Birkal> I will quit everything I do on smogon
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    One issue with where we are at in the team building process is that we have a chosen Pokemon, but no direction outside of that. We do have a solid idea that Totodile is going to be a late game sweeper and the team will play a bit offensively because of that. However, we don't have much more than that. When choosing between a more defensive style or something closer to hyper offense, I'm lead to lean towards a more offensive direction. If anything, we probably need to iron this out in the next Pokemon or two we choose for the core.

    Alright, since Totodile is going to be used primarily in late-game situations, why not pick something that can function early and mid game. It'd also be nice if our Pokemon could have enough power to hurt Toto's checks a bit, while keeping enough speed to outrun them. With that in mind, I'm suggesting Gligar with a Choice Scarf.

    [​IMG]
    Gligar (M) @ Choice Scarf
    Trait: Hyper Cutter
    EVs: 236 Atk / 236 Spe
    Jolly Nature (+Spd, -SAtk)
    - Earthquake
    - Stone Edge / Aerial Ace
    - Night Slash
    - U-Turn


    236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs 0 HP/52 Def Eviolite Chinchou: 100% - 125%
    236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs 36 HP/0 Def Eviolite Staryu: 50% - 65%
    236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs 228 HP/220 Def Eviolite Lileep: 26.92% - 38.46%
    236 Atk Gligar Aerial Ace vs 0 HP/196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 57.14% - 71.43%
    236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs 0 HP/196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 42.86% - 57.14%
    236 Atk Gligar Earthquake vs 84 HP/188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 31.82% - 40.91%

    Now, this Gligar won't be blowing holes in much, but It can at least 2HKO most of Toto's important checks too, which is nifty! This power also ais enough for us to have some fun with predicted switches and scout a bit before Totodile is ready to set up on anything. This also doesn't do much for other bulky Pokemon, like Scraggy, but that might lead us to something like Mienfoo!

    EDIT:
    I like this set, but it leaves us with a big Croagunk issue! My Gligar would make a good teammate for that, but it allows Koffing to come in and do whatever it wants. I'm not saying that we can't use both or even all three together, but it would force us to address these issues, without a doubt.
  3. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    Hey guys, we are all really happy you want to post recommendations and suggestions you have. In that way, the CCAT is already doing what it's supposed to--it's bringing the community together to provide input on a single team. However, even though we're all giving our ideas, we need to make sure these ideas are competitively viable. This team has to be the best it can be...we can't just recommend sets without playing with them or knowing how they work. I don't mean to call you out, Trakyan, but I'm going to use your posts as an example so we can all make this CCAT as good as it can be.

    All right. So Venonat has the potential of being a pretty good Pokemon, and it IS a good Pokemon. It quad resists Grass, which assists Tododile, and is pretty bulky. It also quad resists Fighting, and is neutral to Dark / Ice, making it one of the greatest Scraggy checks in the metagame. However, I don't believe the set you posted is capitalizing on Venonat's specific strengths or what it can bring to the table.

    Right now, the set you posted has issues with its EV spread and with the moveset suggested. Beginning with the EV spread, one tends to want to increase HP investment on a defensive Eviolite Pokemon, as it is neglected with the Eviolite boost. A better spread would probably be:

    EVs: 196 HP / 196 Def / 36 SAtk / 76 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)

    As it gives Venonat, with Eviolite: 25 HP / 21 Def / 21 Spd, as opposed to your Venonat's 23 HP / 21 Def / 24 Spd. The one I (and RayJay, once again, assisted with) provides more mixed bulk. This is important as its physical resistances are rather useful in the metagame.

    Now its moveset. I'm sorry, but the one you suggested is just completely unviable. Morning Sun is great on a bulky Pokemon, like Venonat, and Stun Spore can definitely help out Totodile. However, the last two moves are both attacking moves with awful coverage that are being used to help a not offensively inclined Pokemon. I didn't even know Poison Fang was a real move.

    I think it would be best to take what the Pokemon has to offer and then figure out how to go from there. Venonat has a fabulous support movepool, which includes moves such as Toxic Spikes, Sleep Powder **, Stun Spore **, Baton Pass, Agility, etc. I believe a better set for this Venonat, that could be used to support Totodile would be:

    Venonat (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Compoundeyes
    EVs: 36 HP / 196 Def / 36 SAtk / 236 SDef
    Calm Nature (+SDef, -Atk)
    - Stun Spore
    - Sleep Powder
    - Morning Sun
    - Signal Beam

    Double status Venonat can cripple a lot of threats, giving Totodile many opportunities to set up. It completely defeats Scraggy and Mienfoo, and is never 2HKOed by Misdreavus, meaning it can pose as a full stop to many of Totodile's checks. Compoundeyes means its moves are nearly 100% accurate.

    Unfortunately, I have less nice things to say about this set, as I'm sure you've never tried it out. I have the same comments regarding EV spread...I tend to boost the HP of Pokemon using Eviolite if I can, and then focus on the defenses. It tends to be more useful. The moveset, unfortunately, needs a lot of work. Roost on Swablu is fine, but the other moves aren't. There's no use in Fly on Swablu as it is offensively useless, and doesn't even have Toxic or anything to pose as a threat. With Ominous Wind, we have to rely on a 10% chance to boost the defenses (and other stats)--that isn't worth a team slot. Finally, Swablu is rather slow and doesn't threaten anything, so its Substitutes will never stay up.

    Swablu DOES have Heal Bell, yes, but I don't believe it is the greatest user of the move due to its overall inadequacies.

    Venonat has the possiblity of being a great suggestion, and it's an underrated Pokemon, so I commend you for it. However, Swablu just doesn't have that same status.
    Duskull is just not a proper recommendation, plain and simple. It is not metagame relevant not, really...good. I appreciate your focus on bulk, but even if a Pokemon is bulky, that does not mean it's good. Porygon is very likely an excellent suggestion, though! It's one of the greatest Pokemon of the metagame, and checks a lot of the Pokemon that threaten Totodile. With Trace, it can switch into Chinchou easily, being immune to Volt Switch (which is definitely what they would use against Totodile). It also handily beats the big three and is a really bulky, offensively useful Pokemon. That's an excellent suggestion!

    Your Natu suggestion also is good in that it explains why you suggested it. That is something many of the posts lack--reasons why you believe they assist the main CCAT Pokemon, Totodile, in its sweep. Same with Togepi. Unfortunately, Togepi is kind of awful, and due to Totodile's frailty and Togepi's inability to threaten anything, the Wish most likely won't successfully make it to Totodile.


    Generally, it's better to focus on an offensive partner at this stage in the CCAT, and then move on to the defensive partners after we know where we're going with the team, especially for an offensively inclined CCAT. Likewise, I just don't really like Anorith. In this current metagame, its inability to do anything to Gligar, Bronzor, Croagunk, Mienfoo, Scraggy, or Misdreavus is definitely points against it.

    However, Trakyan, I commend you for actually posting the sets you thought might help. Unlike many other people, you actually wanted to contribute to the CCAT. But for everyone, if this post was TL;DR, this is what you need to keep in mind:

    1) Make sure the set you are suggesting actually ASSISTS the CCAT Pokemon and the team as a whole.
    2) Make sure the set has been playtested and is competitively viable in the current metagame.
    3) Keep defensive synergy (does it have useful resistances? does its typing help with entry hazards?) or offensive synergy (does it help the team break through its checks? is it a useful offensive partner? does it assist our sweeper in sweeping?) in mind when suggesting Pokemon.
    4) For convenience sake, post the export of the set, so we can easily copy and paste it into PO.
    5) Have fun!

    The purpose of the CCAT is to gather the LC community and have fun in the process. Don't hesitate to jump in and contribute! Just make sure your sets remain competitive.
  4. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
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    Alright, we've gotten some quality sets that work well with Totodile and also seem to be pretty anti-metagame, so let's vote!

    You may vote for one Pokemon. Explain your vote or it will not be counted.

    Croagunk
    Lickitung
    prem's Gligar
    little_gk's Gligar
    Mienfoo
    blarajan's Venonat

    I am voting for Croagunk. Totodile doesn't want Scraggy or Misdreavus setting up on it, and it makes a great partner, as it can beat Fire-types and Gligar easily. It also appreciates Croagunk weakening Pokemon with Fake Out to help it sweep! While they don't beat everything together, we still have four more slots, and they form a sturdy core both offensively and defensively (more type-wise than defensively but you get the point).
  5. Furai

    Furai wellfare
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    Croagunk

    It's anti-metagame and a solid core, why not?
  6. Vwall

    Vwall

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    prem's Gligar

    because if Bronzor comes in on Gligar then Gligar can pass a Swords Dance onto Totodile, and if scarf Shellder comes in on Gligar then Gligar can either Baton pass on the same turn if you predict the Shellder switch or simply switch to Totodile while Shellder locks itself into Icicle Spear.

    max atk Shellder vs the Totodile set in the op(4def, 36hp ev's)

    17 Atk vs 13 Def & 22 HP (125 Base Power): 6 - 7 (27.27% - 31.82%)

    not even a 4hko, so Shellder have to switch while Totodile gets a chance to set up.

    Also if Croagunk decides to switch in then Gligar can handle him with Acrobatics or simply force him out and set up on the switch.
  7. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    A big part of the CCAT is using Pokemon in inventive ways. I think, for this reason, we should go with SubPass Mienfoo as the first teammate. This Mienfoo provides us surety against Scraggy and bulkier Normal-types, including Munchlax, Lickitung, and Porygon, who could all be problematic before Totodile accrues boosts. It also is an inventive take on one of the most common Pokemon. Mienfoo's awesome Defense makes him a great candidate to handle weaker physical attacks, while Substitute lets it and Totodile get away without being plagued by status. Substitute + Payback acts as insurance against Misdreavus, which is also nice. These two offensive forces in tandem should be able to get Totodile in safely mid-late game.
  8. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    my gligar.

    at this point in teambuilding, i think we should try to make an offensive core to go along with totodile, rather than try to check a variety of things like what croagunk does. sd gligar is great for busting holes through things that totodile cannot beat or weakening them, while also making it so much easier for totodile to get a sd boost. mienfoo, while i agree would be useful to pass the substitutee, still requires totodile to set up to be threatening (because honestly no boost totodile is less threatening than elekid lol).
  9. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    My Mienfoo.

    I agree wholeheartedly with Prem that we should be focusing on an offensive partner that works well with Totodile. I disagree with how though. I don't really think just going to Totodile with a Swords Dance is going to work too well due to its frailty...especially without Eviolite. The turn it passes is a turn that Totodile is probably going to die, especially against common Pokemon like Misdreavus or Murkrow, who Gligar doesn't necessarily beat but hit the switch-in Totodile really hard. If Gligar doesn't pass to Totodile, then the lack of Roost makes it so we don't really have many other options of getting to Totodile.

    Mienfoo assists Totodile because it gives it a free switch, which is ridiculously important for a frail Pokemon such as Totodile. More importantly, its ability Regenerator means it can set up Substitutes multiple times in one match, something Gligar isn't really able to do. It effectively threatens many of Totodile's bigger checks, and even takes out Misdreavus, which Totodile can do nothing against. It can completely set up on Bronzor, which is really useful, something Gligar can not do. And even if the Substitute is broken, it's okay, because we have the switch initiative and can just set up a Substitute at another time.

    SubPassing > SD Passing in this instance, methinks.
  10. little gk

    little gk <Birkal> I will quit everything I do on smogon
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    I'll be voting for little gk's gligar

    I already explained the reason for submission in my post, so I'm just going to say that I want the added speed and ability to inflict the damage I need on the checks that have been established.
  11. San_Pellegrino

    San_Pellegrino the eternal dreamer
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    little_gk's gligar - has a great way of supporting totodile on an odd offensive side, much better at removing counters like croagunk out of the game.
  12. Raseri

    Raseri here to help
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    little_gk's gligar looks like the best option to me. Toto is meant to come out late game, so removing counters early game or even softening them up should be a priority right now
  13. Harsha

    Harsha
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    Voting for little gk's Gligar as well, as it has an amazing offensive presence (see calcs), as well as the Speed to abuse it. It can even take out Impish Mienfoo, and it does well walling a lot of Pokemon. Additionally, it can use U-turn to pick up offensive momentum. S_P also has a point in removing Croagunk, which could inhibit a sweep.
  14. Aerrow

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    little_gk's Gligar for reasons which have been stated several times before this post.
  15. iss

    iss happily ever after
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  16. Charmander

    Charmander mfw i have a mane and am actually the sun
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    clearly gk's gligar is the most desired set for slot 2, so we're going with that.

    you guys can start nominating pokemon for the third slot now! Make sure to discuss your nomination so other people know why you want to use it. Back it up with calculations too.
  17. spuds4ever

    spuds4ever

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    So as clarity, the team thus far:
    Show Hide



    Seeing as we have a solid offensive core to build off, here's what I would like to suggest as a solid defensive pivot and hazard-setter:

    [​IMG]
    Ferroseed @eviolite
    EVs: 92 HP, 188 def, 228 sp. def
    Trait: Iron barbs
    Relaxed (I think it is) (+def, -spe)
    0 speed IVs
    -Gyro Ball
    -Leech seed
    -Protect
    -Stealth Rock

    Ferroseed is a very solid defensive pivot bringing in important resistances that totodile doesn't have to relied on for, such as water. He also handles snover pretty well which would otherwise give gligar and totodile a tough time. Gyro ball does good, consitent damage, superior to bullet seed in my opinion. Leech seed is his only recovery, but is still very useful, with protect augmenting this as well as stopping scarfers attempts to grab momentum (like mienfoo for example). Stealth rock is the best hazard around in this meta and often one turn is all ferroseed can afford to give to set it up as it needs leech seed to last as long as possible.

    Edit: changed to gyro ball after ray's post.
  18. blarajan

    blarajan i was born under the same star as shakeitup
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    I once again urge my Mienfoo for the third slot.

    [​IMG]

    Mienfoo (M) @ Eviolite
    Trait: Regenerator
    EVs: 156 Atk / 196 Def / 36 SDef / 76 Spd
    Impish Nature (+Def, -SAtk)
    - Substitute
    - Baton Pass
    - Drain Punch
    - Payback

    Here is the original explanation for convenience:

    Show Hide



    I think this makes an especially good parther with the inclusion of that Gligar. This is because, once again, we have issues breaking through bulkier Pokemon without Totodile getting a boost. Misdreavus remains a huge problem, and Mienfoo can take it out with its Payback. Furthermore, U-Turn from Gligar and Baton Pass from Mienfoo (along with the accompanied Substitute) grant Totodile many set-up opportunities. It also forms a bit of VoltTurn action. With Mienfoo, we have a strong offensive core that supports itself, good bulk to rely on, and checks to many of the things that check Totodile.

    Also, fun fact: Totodile behind a sub shits on Koffing, as Clear Smog doesn't negate boosts behind a Substitute.
  19. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    @spuds: use a - Spe nature and 0 Spe Ivs and Gyro Ball is stronger than Iron head against 19 Speeders and Scarf Snover; it also guarantees the Ohko on the latter
  20. prem

    prem failed abortion
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    im just gonna take my list from my last post, and then whatever gligar beats will be red.

    eviolite mienfoo, croagunk, Chinchou, Lileep, ferroseed, staryu, exeggcute, axew, dratini, joltik, porygon, misdreavus

    chinchou is orange because gligar cant switch in on its ass without dying. ddance axew beats scarf gligar, while dratini more or less does the same thing with a chance of failure.

    i honestly agree whole heartedly with blarajan's subpass mienfoo, allowing either gligar or totodile to beat the orange things pretty easily, while mienfoo can beat both ferroseed and lileep. it also deals with porygon, and can be a weak check against misdreavus.
  21. Jansports

    Jansports

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    The SubPass Mienfoo does support Totodile//Gligar and Check a few of the undealt with threats, Something to keep in mind though is that with Both a SubPasser and U turner supporting a late sweeper like the Totodile seems intended to do Means the next Choices are going to be somewhat restricted as the team is starting to look quite offensive, Hazard support will be near mandatory and any momentum retaining offensive team is going to want to have a spinner or at Minimum someone to clear T-spikes.

    That said I'd vote for the Mienfoo anyway, as not just Totodile but also Gligar (and potentially other teammates) can take advantage of SubPassing. Also this choice is one that *can* shape the team to a great deal, as theoretically getting hazard support, hazard clearing and Pivots with strong immunities/typing to take advantage of the UturnPass would be essential to wear down teams to the point that Dile can clean up.
  22. comatthew6

    comatthew6 Uther's Noble [Ball]Sack
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    Well, because both Gligar and Totodile will tend to lose against Ferroseed, why not include a couple of Pokemon that can beat it?

    I support Blarajan's Mienfoo for the third slot because it provides the team with some bulk while still retaining some power. However, this team would be entirely physical and dedicated walls will be able to handle them relatively successfully.

    So, I propose we use Magnemite to focus on enemy Ferroseed and provide a strong special attacker. It has great synergy with Gligar, and we could always throw in something or other to handle Water-type attacks from Chinchou. So,

    Magnemite @ Life Orb
    Trait: Magnet Pull
    EVs: 240 SAtk / 240 Spd
    Modest Nature (+SAtk, -Atk)
    - Substitute
    - Thunderbolt
    - Hidden Power [Fire]
    - Flash Cannon

    This should work well against Ferroseed, as well as some other Pokemon that cannot do much to it (non-Heat wave Murkrow, for instance). With a Substitute up, it can inflict massive damage to anything that doesn't resist these moves (aka just Chinchou).
  23. Ray Jay

    Ray Jay "The sky's the limit, okey-dokey!"
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    Comatt, while that is a good suggestion, we need to consider the fact that we would then have a team that greatly struggles against Scraggy, especially since our variant (Choice Scarf Gligar) is incapable of OHKOing Scraggy. I think this is one of the big reasons why Mienfoo is pretty much the best option for the next slot.

    and it's really cute
  24. Jansports

    Jansports

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    While I was thinking about my previous assertion that Hazards, and their removal would be important to an offensive team with 2 Turners (thus far) I looked at various support options and Thought Natu, or rather Magic Bounce could prove usefull both providing and removing possible hazards. And he Brings something Interesting in Support in little cup as one of few wishpassers, and has status spreading options in Either Toxic or T-wave.

    [​IMG]
    Natu @ Eviolite
    Magic Bounce
    116hp/36atk/76def/0S.atk/76S.def/200Spe Jolly
    - Wish
    - U-turn
    - Thunderwave / Toxic
    - Reflect // Light Screen

    Totodile and the Popular mienfoo(not yet official) Sit at 13 and 14 speed respectively and any LO cleaner will appreciate paralysis. While Toxic is a strong option to shut down opposing walls not named ferroseed or bronzor. Wish passing would allow earlier use of Totodile and prolonged use the the Choiced Gligar, both of which are strong offensive threats however lacking in recovery. A single screen while not Optimal without the Clay, depending on the rest of the teams slots could provide the cushion needed to turn a sorta check into a hard check.

    Of course the biggest Draw to Natu is Magic Bounce itself. Offering simultaneously hazard protection and by virtue of that hazard support for the offensive Core of the team.
  25. Trakyan

    Trakyan

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    Ok, putting forwards venonat again. As for an explanation for the weird EVs i tend to try and get the highest even defense number to make eviolite as useful as possible. But i see your point in some of the stuff you said, redesigned the EVs and it matches yours for bulk with a few EVs left over. I was still opting for the physical variant since poison fangs 30% chance to badly poison targets, i did consider toxic spikes but it is illegal with morning sun.

    So here is the set

    Venonat @ Eviolite
    EVs: 196 HP / 116 Def / 40 SAtk / 156 SDef
    Bold Nature
    -Stun Spore
    -Morning Sun
    -Hidden Power [Fire]
    -Signal Beam

    Sleep powder is left out due to the fact it becomes dead weight after being used, HP fire seems an odd choice but it handles ferroseed, i guess sleep power could take its place and signal beam is there for STAB and that chance of confusion. Alternatively seeing as totodile misses out on a few precious KOs a rest talk set with toxic spikes could be used but its not very reliable. Maybe some grass/poison type could be used for better synergy with totodile but now that we have gligar that could make ice a problem. Venonat also seems to have great type synergy with our duo, no overlapping weaknesses and even covers grass for totodile. I also disagree with what you said about duskull, its bulkier than missy and frillish, 18 defenses arent low, the set though was pretty bad, maybe something like shadow sneak/sub/pain split/wow would be better with shadow sneak assisting with priority, WoW helping totodile set up etc.
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