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LC Stats - June 2013

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by iss, Jul 8, 2013.

  1. Superpowerdude

    Superpowerdude A sunflower holds its head up high!
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    Another good thing about Larvesta is that it can be a real pain to the common Snover + Krow balanced teams. It can get easy switch ins on Snover an whatever fighting-type the team may have (usually timburr or Mienfoo) and can easily threaten the team immediatly. Larvesta is one of those Pokemon that can really abuse the easy switch-ins it gets because the opponent has to think about two things: a) will larvesta nuke me with Flare Blitz or B) will the opponeny gain momemtum with U-turn. Another good thing is it doesn't matter if Larvesta goes for U-turn or Flare Blitz if you keep in Snover, your going to get ko'd.Flare Blitz hits incredibly hard and not much of these types of teams can switch into it except Staryu, Porygom and Chinchou which will often force Porygon and Staryu to go for Recover while you can U-turn. Larvesta can even run Wild Charge to threaten these teams further by murdering Staryu switch-ins. Chinchou is a pretty good stop to Larvesta but remember Larvesta can very easily gain momentum against these teams by U-turning out on there Mienfoo and Snover. A lot of top ladder players use this sort of team frame work so Larvesta is kinda anti-meta!
  2. Goddess Briyella

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    Murkrow 2HKOs Chinchou with HP Ground actually, in weather. So I take that into consideration. Just a thought. ^_^
  3. apt-get

    apt-get platinum happy
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    Only if it's LO and it means I'm sure it's not scarfed, so I can revenge it with mienfoo/krow/snover.
  4. Goddess Briyella

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    This is true. ^_^
  5. MSP

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    | 36 | Frillish | 4.46719% | 2144 | 4.657% | 1839 | 4.844% |
    I know this thing doesn't typically do a whole lot offensively, but I feel like it should be higher than this. I have found Frillish to be the single best Mienfoo counter in the entire metagame. Most of Mienfoo's counters are worn down over time or crippled by Knock Off. Frillish obviously doesn't like Knock Off, but even without its Eviolite it can easily take any hit from Defensive Mienfoo, Recover back any damage, and switch out. U-turn also does very little, so it's hard to wear down Frillish that way. Finally, it's not like Frillish is dead weight if it isn't countering Mienfoo (like Grimer). Cursed Body is a great ability and allows Frillish to counter just about anything with a bit of luck. It's bulky enough to serve as a bit of a sand counter and it has good defensive synergy with Magnemite (who I am a big fan of). Its offenses are also surprisingly solid for a defensive poke. Obviously it's not perfect (and I suspect Scraggy is the main reason it doesn't get much use), but people who get sick of Defensive Mienfoo Knocking Off and wearing down half their team should really give it a shot.
  6. kingmidas

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    Mienfoo isn't supposed to hurt any ghost type, it is supposed to cripple and leave. Also frillish really relies on its item it can't take many hits without having to give up a turn recovering and even then it will be just taken down by a fast strong threat if it doesn't have its eviolite. Also grimer is the best mienfoo counter because it can't be knocked off there is no disputing that. Sure it does do well as a sand counter but it shouldn't be your only way of stopping it.
  7. MSP

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    Even after Knock Off, Frillish can continue to counter Defensive Mienfoo. Knock Off is at best a 5HKO against Frillish lacking Eviolite. U-turn only does 12-16% (8-12% with a Bold nature, compare to 7.4 - 11.11% against Max HP/Max Defense Grimer with Eviolite). Grimer is the best Mienfoo counter only in theory. It's true it counters the Defensive set pretty well, but it isn't immune to any of Mienfoo's attacks, so it's going to take at least 15% damage (and usually about 30%) every time it switches in. With only Pain Split as recovery (which isn't reliable), Grimer has limited longevity. Grimer certainly keeps Defensive Mienfoo from doing its job for a while, but Mienfoo can usually outlast it. On the other hand, Frillish can keep switching into Mienfoo all game because of Recover. It's true that Frillish will be crippled for the sake of walling other threats, but it can stop Defensive Mienfoo from doing its job for longer than any other poke I have been able to find.

    Grimer is the clearly inferior counter for Mienfoo without Knock Off. Consider the standard LO Mienfoo set. Against Max Def and Max HP Grimer (which is not the standard set), HJK and Stone Edge do 29.62 - 37.03%, Fake Out does 14.81 - 18.51%, and U-turn does 11.11 - 14.81%. Frillish takes more from Stone Edge and U-turn (32 - 40% and 12 - 16%, respectively), but can Recover that damage off. Plus the immunities to Fake Out and HJK are huge, particularly because the threat of recoil gives Mienfoo second thoughts about using HJK at all.

    The only situation in which I might prefer Grimer is against LO Mienfoo with Knock Off. Even then I think I'd take Frillish.

    With regard to your first comment: I realize Mienfoo is not supposed to hurt ghosts. But most players who use Mienfoo rely on it quite a bit. If the only thing Mienfoo does in the entire match is Knock Off Frillish's Eviolite, it probably hasn't done as much as its trainer expected.
  8. Shouting

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    Having used Grimer before, I can say it is the best of the best at countering Mienfoo. Frillish is also an excellent check, but is vulnerable to knock off. I would rather have an eviolite Grimer than a Frillish without eviolite. A Frillish without an eviolite really can't check anything, Staryu, Timburr, Clamperl, Omanyte etc., can all muscle past Frillish relatively easy without Eviolite, even Hippo can do a boatload with Earthquake. Since it takes more damage overall after losing it's item, it will be unlikely that Frillish will be at full health. Meanwhile Grimer can counter almost very Fighting, Bug, and Grass type in the tier.

    With Regenerator and Drain Punch, Mienfoo will be at or near full health very often, making Pain Split very useful against Mienfoo itself. Also, many of the things that Mienfoo will U-turn into Grimer, like Hippo, Lileep, and Porygon all have recovery moves and are very sturdy so they will not only be a good source of health but Grimer will also weaken them in the process. It would certainly be better with recover, but Pain Split is good enough in most cases.

    Grimer's anaylsis is very, very old so that is why it is not the eviolite set isn't "standard" but in reality it is it's best set. Grimer can also beat virtually every Fighting type 1 on 1.
  9. MSP

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    When I said it wasn't the standard set I meant most Grimer don't have maxed out HP and Defense with an Impish nature. But regardless, I ran all the calculations with Max HP and Defense.

    Just for clarification, I am not trying to say that Grimer is bad at countering Mienfoo. I have used it before and found it effective. I realize that Pain Split is useful in certain situations. However, Pain Split is not as reliable as Recover. Grimer can't use Pain Split at 50% and return to full health, even if its opponent is at full health (which is especially problematic since Grimer is slow and can't just wait until it gets to low health to use Pain Split). Furthermore, your opponent can play around Pain Split by bringing in a poke at low health. Grimer is a good Mienfoo counter, but Pain Split is imperfect.

    Sticky Hold is certainly an advantage Grimer has. However, Frillish has advantages over Grimer as well (namely immunity to Mienfoo's STAB and Fake Out, plus more reliable recovery). As I tried to outline above, for the purposes of weathering Mienfoo's attacks (not Timburr's or Staryu's), Frillish is superior to Grimer even without Eviolite. If you're looking for someone to stop Mienfoo and Timburr on the same team, I can see choosing Grimer. But as a Mienfoo counter, I think Frillish is superior.

    Ultimately, whether Grimer is better or not is somewhat irrelevant to my initial reason for bringing up Frillish. I have found that it effectively walls a number of physical attackers (most notably Mienfoo), spreads status, and threatens sand, all while having solid offensive stats for a defensive poke. For these reasons I would like to see its usage rise.
  10. apt-get

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    I actually recently updated Grimer, and the eviolite set is the first one now.

    Edit: MSP, your point is irrelevant because mienfoo will simply u-turn out of there, and you simply can't check 90% off the opponent's team anymore. You also don't seem to understand that mienfoo can just u-turn on your frillish switch, leaving you even more weakened. Using frillish to "wall" mienfoo is stupid if you don't have something else that counters the shit frillish checks.
  11. MSP

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    "You also don't seem to understand that mienfoo can just u-turn on your frillish switch, leaving you even more weakened."
    I do understand this, but as I demonstrated above, U-turn does very little to Frillish, even without Eviolite (hardly more than against Eviolite Grimer), so it takes a lot of U-turns to leave you weakened. Also, Mienfoo can U-turn against any switch-in at all (including Grimer). This is why Mienfoo is so hard to counter, but it's unavoidable.

    "mienfoo will simply u-turn out of there, and you simply can't check 90% off the opponent's team anymore."
    "Using frillish to "wall" mienfoo is stupid if you don't have something else that counters the shit frillish checks."
    Then have a secondary answer for those things. Also, almost anything you might choose as a Mienfoo counter loses its ability to counter other threats because of Knock Off. Grimer is the only exception, and it doesn't counter that much besides Mienfoo in the first place. Lastly, why does Frillish need to counter 90% of the opponent's team to be useful? If Mienfoo is on the other team, I know Frillish can at least counter a very important 17%. And if Mienfoo isn't on the other team, chances are Frillish still counters at least one or two of the opponent's pokes.
  12. apt-get

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    The thing is that maybe one u-turn won't do much, but for example if they switch into staryu/murkrow and use thunderbolt/brave bird, you'll probably be KOed.
    This is why you should never use something to "counter" mienfoo, as it's simply impossible. Instead, rely on things that can halt its momentum, like Grimer or Flame Body Larvesta.
    Also, tell me something that walls as much threats as Frillish can.
    Also, frillish, again, isn't an effective mienfoo counter because foo can simply sap your momentum and u-turn to something like Scraggy to setup. Protip: if your "counter" can be heavily crippled by one of the opponent's most common moves, it's not a good one. Larvesta, for example, isn't crippled by knock off because it can still hit hard with flare blitz, gain momentum for your team with u-turn, burn mienfoo, and still wall 90% of fighting-types because it resists drain punch and has decent bulk. Meanwhile, frillish can only throw a weak scald that does nothing.
  13. Goddess Briyella

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    I've never tried Grimer before.

    But after reading a few of these posts, I am highly intrigued. Mienfoo can literally do practically nothing to it and it appears that it can be a Fighting type check in general (outside of maybe Scraggy, and it gets Zen Headbutt as well). I don't know enough about Grimer in LC to appropriately judge. I have never even seen it on the ladder more than once or twice, and when I did it was never even a decent problem. I'm definitely going to give it a try, though. Perhaps it can also use Memento to allow another mon an easy setup, or to shift momentum in general, in times of trouble. I may or may not come back to add more on Grimer, depending on how much new and fruitful input I can add after testing with it.

    About Frillish, I have never found it to be even remotely useful for anything, and every time I've seen it, I've had little to no trouble dealing with it. I understand it's sort of bulky and gets Recover, but I'm quite convinced Missy outclasses it as a Ghost and there are better Water types in the tier. The most trouble it can give Mienfoo is to get a lucky Burn with Scald, and that's if Mienfoo doesn't U-turn out to Snover or Foongus. Frillish may give Hippo and Drilbur/Sandshrew (lacking Shadow Claw) a hard time, but they are commonly paired with Lileep, to absorb the Water attacks. It might get its fair few opportunities to use Toxic and Recover to try and stall, but it's still nothing hard to deal with. I don't see Frillish on a team really putting in work; it just appears in my head as the mon most likely to be sacced late game because everything else actually has a definite use.
  14. MSP

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    Larvesta might not be crippled by Knock Off, but it certainly is by Stone Edge, which is pretty common on Mienfoo as well. Also Frillish can burn with Will-o-Wisp, which can also scare off the likes Murkrow and Scraggy (obviously less so with Shed Skin variants). And I'm still not clear on how Grimer halts Mienfoo's momentum. Mienfoo can still U-turn to something else and (unlike Larvesta), Grimer can't do anything about it.

    Also I want to clarify that I am not claiming Frillish is the best way to deal with Mienfoo. I am trying to say that if one needed a pokemon that could reliably switch into Mienfoo and either force it to switch out or beat it one on one, Frillish would be the best choice. It has been my understanding that this is what it means to "counter" a particular pokemon (maybe this is wrong, and please correct me if it is, but this is what I mean when I say "counter", just to clear up any confusion). Shieldon is a great Murkrow counter, but it's far from the best way to deal with it because Murkrow is basically all it counters. That doesn't mean it can't reliably switch into Murkrow and force it out.

    I am not trying to say that people should use Frillish as their only way of dealing with Mienfoo. However, I do not think its ability to "counter" (i.e. switch in repeatedly without being KO'd) Mienfoo is useless. For instance, if it's late in the match and the opponent's Mienfoo has outlasted its checks (which it is often able to do thanks to Regenerator), it's helpful to have something like Frillish which can repeatedly switch in. You can also tailor your use of Frillish to your opponent's team. If the other team has something like Larvesta in addition to Mienfoo or if you're facing a Sand team with Mienfoo, you might want to make sure Mienfoo doesn't have Knock Off before you use Frillish. But if you're facing a team with Mienfoo/Misdreavus/Murkrow/Chinchou/Scraggy/Snover, you can take on Mienfoo with Frillish from the start and just switch out to an appropriate poke whenever they go to Murkrow or Chinchou.
  15. kingmidas

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    Okay mienfoo should never take on frillish or any ghost type 1 vs 1. Also overall mienfoo isn't supposed to take on the team, it is supposed to support your own team with knock off or a drain punch to finish off a mon. Grimer is again the better choice for what you are saying, frillish is extremely crippled by eviolite because it has good bulk, but it isn't the bulkiest it uses it resistances to have better chances against mons and without eviolite even neutral hits will kill it.
  16. GlassGlaceon

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    foongus is at #33, it should be A LOT higher. One of the best walls in LC, and the #1 imo, fighting counter/check in LC. Tanky+spore will shut down a fighting type, or any relatively offensive poke until it wakes back up. But by then it will probably have been KO'ed by a proper switch. LOLOMG Aipom, btw, and abra should fall, but not by much. It's good, but rather easy to take down by murk and missy, and even timburr :l. Munchlax is at #84, which is trash and crap.Munchlax is one of the best bulky attackers in LC, and can run a plethora (about 3) viable sets, which a lot of higher-tier pokes do. Base 85 ain't just for misdreavus, ya know. And the fact that it's weak to fighting is a drawback, but Munchlax has dented just about 1/3 to all of any team I've faced. An amazing special wall, too, with 130/85 special bulk, which gets boosted to insane levels with evio. If played with the right support Munch can wreck teams
  17. Ray Jay

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    Grimer is so bad in this metagame I don't even think we should be talking about it. Someone mentioned Pain Split being bad at recovery, and they're exactly right. If you intend to use Grimer as a Mienfoo counter you are going to be switching it in predictably meaning you are going to eat U-turns ad infinitum. In comes anything that does damage and isn't Mienfoo and all of the momentum is once again back in the hands of your opponent. A correctly played Mienfoo (especially the most common Eviolite set) is all about momentum, not damage, and a set that gives up momentum as much as a defensive Grimer is thus a bad answer.
  18. Rowan

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    I really don't know about Grimer's viability since I know a couple of decent players have claimed it to be good (Apt-get, Hawkstar iirc?) but I agree with Ray Jay that it can't really do a lot to Mienfoo. I don't really think anything can do an awful lot to Mienfoo though, especially in the early game. The main problem I have with Grimer is that it's dead weight against pretty much every sand team you come across. Yes, it can switch into Lileep and a fighting-type (if they have one) but Hippo walls it to hell and back and Drilbur easily takes it out.

    I agree that flame body Larvesta is the best thing you can have against Mienfoo since it really makes Mienfoo think twice about actually attacking because a burn could seriously cripple it.
  19. kingmidas

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    True glass both of the mons you mentioned are above average, but seemingly underused from a stat view point. They both have bulk further boosted by eviolite and have great niches. But, when in matches they seem to be lowered in value by the common types that plaque them and this meta, fighting types wreck its weaker defensive stat and murkrow will just come in with insomnia and take that spore with ease and then murder your team from that one switch in.
  20. Shouting

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    You can say this but keep in mind that U-turning against grimer will only get you so far. Grimer stops Mienfoo from knocking off items, which is incredible support. Just like Natu scares Ferroseed and Bronzor into using hazards and status, Grimer stops Mienfoo from using knock off, and because a grimer coming in a knock off means grimer has a free turn (i.e. momentum). You could say that Menfoo can just U-turn from the get-go, but it provides very little other than momentum. For example, if a grimer comes in on mienfoo while it U-turns and brings out something like Abra, I can just go to a Murkrow / Vullaby / Porygon etc. etc. to deal with it. Since my whole team has their items, they are in a good position to check and counter. On the flipside, if I was using any other mienfoo check, like Frillish or Foongus, they would get knocked off. So I would bring in my Foongus, get knocked off, then mienfoo will U-turn on foongus (doing a good chunk of damage) into something like Magnemite which can now KO with a Flash Cannon or Hidden Power because I have no eviolite. Now that I have no Foongus, I can't protect myself against Mienfoo (which will just rinse and repeat the process of knock off + U-turn on my whole team) but now I also can't protect against Staryu, Chinchou, Cacnea, etc.

    And a grimer user can have common since too, I mean if you're switching in just to get U-turned on....just don't switch everytime to Grimer. Like if you have a Magnemite in, just stay in on the U-turn and then you have a Volt Switch opportunity. It can go both ways.

    And If you use Gunk shot on Grimer, I'm pretty sure you have a good chance at 2HKO Mienfoo. Poison Jab is a 3HKO even. They also both have a 30% poison chance too, which cuts into Mienfoo's life span and recovery.
  21. Superpowerdude

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    I'm sorry but a lot of things you mentioned I don't agree with. The only real thing Grimer has going for it is that it can't get its Eviolite knocked off. Mienfoo U-turning on a Grimer switch in can actually get you very far since a lot of common Pokémon can beat Grimer. U-turning into Drilbur, Tirtouga, Life Orb Mukrow, Abra, Sanshrew Misdreavus with Will-o-Wisp, Staryu and I am sure there are many others that will give Grimer serious trouble. You mentioned that if Mienfoo U-turns on Grimer and brings in Abra you can just go to Porygon / Vullaby / Murkrow and honestly that holds no weight in this discussion because that can be said about any pokemon. "So what if I switch my Foongus into Mienfoos U-turn and they go into Abra I can just go to Vullaby / Murkrow /Porygon" you see what I mean?

    Also I don't think you are giving Foongus enough credit you mentioned that "So I would bring in my Foongus, get knocked off, then mienfoo will U-turn on foongus (doing a good chunk of damage) into something like Magnemite which can now KO with a Flash Cannon or Hidden Power because I have no eviolite" you forgot to take into account that unlike Grimer, Foongus can cripple almost all Pokémon between Stun Spore and Spore. So yeah you can Knock Off with Mienfoo but at the expense of getting paralyzed / put to sleep. You can U-turn on Foongus but at the expense of getting the switch in Spore'd or Stun Spore'd. Also while I certainly agree without Eviolite Foongus is much weaker, with Regenerator as long as you keep it healthy it can still keep Mienfoo in check throughout the course of that match and even other stuff like Restalk Chinchou and Staryu lacking Psychich / Ice Beam. Yes Mienfoo can U-turn onto Foongus and go into stuff like Abra and Murkrow which threaten it but the number of Pokémon that threaten Foongus are much less than the amount of Pokémon that threaten Grimer

    On the topic of Foongus:

    I agree with you that Foongus should be higher in usage. It checks sand decently well, it checks all Fighting-types in the tier and the utility of Spore and Stun Spore go a long way in helping your team, for example setting up Dragon Dances with a Scraggy.

    Munchlax may be a little high your right since it is 84th but I think its low usage is probably due to the fact that Porygon completely outclasses it for the role of a bulky Normal type. Porygon cans still wall the common special attacker of the tier (Abra, Snover, Misdreavus,etc) but it also has reliable recovery in Recover letting it outlast Munchlax and it is actually good offensively too with a pretty powerful Tri Attack for a defensive Pokémon. Also it has Thunderwave to help cripple the opponents Pokémon.
  22. Shouting

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    Staryu doesn't beat Grimer. Gunk shot + a Shadow Sneak will beat Staryu while Staryu will never OHKO Grimer with Hydro Pump. Is it a good idea to stay in? Not really, but Staryu doesn't beat Grimer.

    My point about Abra and being able to counter it does actually apply, not in the sense that "anything that counters Grimer has a counter so Grimer is great!" but rather that a team with eviolites is more likely to succeed in not only checking Grimer's checks but also winning in general. Since Mienfoo is less likely to give Grimer a free turn by using knock off, a team with Grimer on it is less likely to lose items and that is a fact. Continuing on, since foongus can lose it's eviolite, mienfoo is free to spam knock off freely. If you bring foongus in on every single Mienfoo switch, you will lose. Combine Foongus switching into Stealth Rock, a Fake Out / Knock Off / Drain Punch, and then a succeeding U-turn, along with possible Hail/Sandstorm damage, and you will get far more than 33% damage that Foongus heals (this doesn't even add to the fact that Foongus might get a scald burn from Chinchou. Plus, Staryu does more than 33% to a Foongus without eviolite). Spore is only one time, Stun Spore won't annoy eviolite Magnemite that much, or Ferroseed, or even Croagunk, which are common Foongus checks. Also, let's be honest here, Eviolite-less Foongus with Giga Drain and Clear Smog isn't scaring anything anytime soon, the list of pokemon that can come in and beat a Foongus without eviolite is larger than the pokemon that can come in on a Grimer with eviolite.

    The damage that Foongus will sustain from coming in on Mienfoo without an eviolite is far too great for it to actually last. Since Mienfoo outlasts eviolite-less Foongus by a large amount, the rest of your team is open to knock off which is not good at all.
  23. Sage of the 6

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    One last thing that I saw,I think croagunk is a bit underused right now, the amount of utility it has is stunning. The coveted fighting STAB, great priority attacks such as vacuum wave and sucker punch, knock off cripples any defensive mon, (bar grimer), and it has a good ability letting it switch in to water attacks and heal. Vacuum Wave is the bane of weakened Shell Smashers, since shellder, Clamperl, and Tirtouga are all either weak to fighting or have abysmal Special Defense stats. It also has drain punch to keep it self alive. It's not helpless against misdreavus, a common fighting type check. While a weakness to ground limits its usefulness with sand teams so common, it's utility and revenge killing capabilities should let it go higher
  24. Goddess Briyella

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    I've tried out Grimer. It's absolutely wonderful as a Knock Off/Covet/Trick shield, and the fact that Mienfoo can do almost nothing to it can give Grimer a turn to do many things as Mienfoo U-turns out. It can hit the incoming Pokemon with a powerful Gunk Shot or Fire Blast (and then finish it off with Shadow Sneak), OR it has the option of going for Memento, which offensively screws anything not named Natu and allows free setup for the likes of heavy-hitters such as Scraggy and Shell Smashers. I would like to stress that Grimer does have a priority move in Shadow Sneak, and while not STAB, it can still be useful late game in getting key KOs on significantly weakened foes that still pose an offensive threat, such as Tirtouga after being taken to Sturdy and Abra after being taken to Sash. It also scores a fast super effective hit on Missy and this can be crucial after Missy takes damage from something else.

    However, its weakness to Ground makes it weak against Sand teams, and blocking Mienfoo's Knock Off can only be done maybe once or twice before the opponent catches on and goes for U-turn instead while you bring in Grimer to take the Knock Off, which will put you at a disadvantage. Grimer serves as a decent check to Timburr as well, although it lacks recovery (I tried running Leftovers and Protect to mitigate this but the lack of Eviolite really made it not worth it, as I took notably more damage from everything and Protect wasn't worth the moveslot). I think Grimer is definitely a unique Pokemon that can do some things that many mons wish they could do, but after the opponent sees what it's for, it's easy to predict and play around it. At least there's Memento after its usefulness has run out, and while it may seem wasteful to just let it die, that one free turn of setup you provide for your setup sweeper can often secure you the win if done at the right time. It has the potential to be great, and from now on I will respect it when I see someone else with it, but it's hard for me to forgo other more reliable mons to give it a team slot.
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2013
    Chronic Smash likes this.
  25. rainbowumbreon

    rainbowumbreon

    Joined:
    Feb 27, 2013
    Messages:
    50
    now i may get scoulded for this but here it goes i found this very effective i have used two dragon dancers on the one team

    one is an axew sub dd with dragon gem dragon claw and aqua tail.it is brilliant for a quick mini sweep the dragon gem boost gives you that valuable boost as the bring in a "counter".

    the second is dd 3 attack scraggy and it is DEADLY saved my ass on many matches.that drain punch recovery is so handy

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