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Resource LC SuMo Viability Rankings (updated @ post #204)

Discussion in 'Little Cup' started by Fiend, Nov 22, 2016.

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  1. Fiend

    Fiend the hound.
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    It's an old idea. Thread is ran by Fiend, Shrug, Quote, and Corporal Levi. Artwork by Schaff.

    [​IMG]

    Welcome to the LC viability ranking project. In this project, we will "tier" every Pokemon based on usefulness. An initial tier list has already been made; if you think something should be moved up or down, post in this thread with your reasoning on why, and the change may be enacted, but please make sure you have a proper understanding of the current metagame before doing so. Bad/basic posts will be deleted, and repeated offenses may be punished by infraction. However, asking questions about why certain Pokemon are ranked where they are is acceptable.

    Also don't nominate a Pokemon to move up more than 2 sub rankings. There are instances where this is needed, such as when a new mechanic is discovered, but usually it is not and in fact nominations of such a large jump tend to be disagreed on by the community at large.


    Viability Ranking Council
    For more controversial cases, the viability ranking council will vote on the Pokemon's tiering.

    [​IMG] Fiend
    [​IMG] Shrug
    [​IMG] Quote
    [​IMG] Corporal Levi
    [​IMG][​IMG] Nineage


    Tier List

    Without further ado, here is the initial tier list with the rough definitions of each tier. The ranks in descending order, with the Pokemon in each rank ordered alphabetically.

    S RANK
    S

    [​IMG] Abra
    [​IMG] Mienfoo
    [​IMG] Timburr
    [​IMG] Staryu
    [​IMG] Vullaby


    A RANK
    A+

    [​IMG] Croagunk
    [​IMG] Diglett
    [​IMG] Grimer-Alola
    [​IMG] Onix
    [​IMG] Shellder
    [​IMG] Foongus

    A

    [​IMG] Chinchou
    [​IMG] Gastly
    [​IMG] Magnemite
    [​IMG] Mudbray
    [​IMG] Pawniard
    [​IMG] Snivy
    [​IMG] Snubbull

    A-

    [​IMG] Carvanha
    [​IMG] Corphish
    [​IMG] Cottonee
    [​IMG] Doduo
    [​IMG] Dwebble
    [​IMG] Ferroseed
    [​IMG] Ponyta
    [​IMG] Rufflet
    [​IMG] Scraggy
    [​IMG] Spritzee


    B RANK
    B+

    [​IMG] Aipom
    [​IMG] Drilbur
    [​IMG] Elekid
    [​IMG] Hippopotas
    [​IMG] Kabuto
    [​IMG] Mareanie
    [​IMG] Omanyte
    [​IMG] Pumpkaboo-Super
    [​IMG] Slowpoke
    [​IMG] Surskit
    [​IMG] Tirtouga
    [​IMG] Torchic
    [​IMG] Vulpix-Alola
    [​IMG] Zigzagoon

    B

    [​IMG] Archen
    [​IMG] Amaura
    [​IMG] Cranidos
    [​IMG] Houndour
    [​IMG] Munchlax
    [​IMG] Pancham
    [​IMG] Sandshrew-Alola
    [​IMG] Skrelp

    B-

    [​IMG] Bulbasaur
    [​IMG] Bunnelby
    [​IMG] Clamperl
    [​IMG] Frillish
    [​IMG] Larvesta
    [​IMG] Magby
    [​IMG] Pumpkaboo-Small
    [​IMG] Snover
    [​IMG] Taillow
    [​IMG] Wynaut

    C RANK
    C+

    [​IMG] Anorith
    [​IMG] Buneary
    [​IMG] Darumaka
    [​IMG] Deerling
    [​IMG] Fletchling
    [​IMG] Honedge
    [​IMG] Koffing
    [​IMG] Lickitung
    [​IMG] Lileep
    [​IMG] Meowth
    [​IMG] Pikipek
    [​IMG] Riolu
    [​IMG] Sandile
    [​IMG] Spinarak
    [​IMG] Stufful
    [​IMG] Sandshrew
    [​IMG] Tentacool
    [​IMG] Trapinch
    [​IMG] Trubbish
    [​IMG] Tyrunt

    C

    [​IMG] Axew
    [​IMG] Dewpider
    [​IMG] Dratini
    [​IMG] Goldeen
    [​IMG] Inkay
    [​IMG] Natu
    [​IMG] Numel
    [​IMG] Rowlet
    [​IMG] Salandit
    [​IMG] Shellos
    [​IMG] Stunky
    [​IMG] Treecko
    [​IMG] Teddiursa
    [​IMG] Venipede

    C-

    [​IMG] Bronzor
    [​IMG] Budew
    [​IMG] Cubchoo
    [​IMG] Cubone
    [​IMG] Exeggcute
    [​IMG] Larvitar
    [​IMG] Litleo
    [​IMG] Mankey
    [​IMG] Mantyke
    [​IMG] Morelull
    [​IMG] Nosepass
    [​IMG] Remoraid
    [​IMG] Togepi
    [​IMG] Wingull
    [​IMG] Wooper
    [​IMG] Zorua


    D RANK
    D

    [​IMG] Chespin
    [​IMG] Ekans
    [​IMG] Finneon
    [​IMG] Geodude
    [​IMG] Geodude-Alola
    [​IMG] Gible
    [​IMG] Golett
    [​IMG] Karrablast
    [​IMG] Klink
    [​IMG] Machop
    [​IMG] Mime Jr.
    [​IMG] Meowth-Alola
    [​IMG] Munna
    [​IMG] Pineco
    [​IMG] Piplup
    [​IMG] Purrloin
    [​IMG] Rattata-Alola
    [​IMG] Shelmet
    [​IMG] Totodile
    [​IMG] Wimpod


    Smog Frog Rank

    :pirate: Everything else
    They suck. really badly.
    also these mons in particular (open)

    Azurill
    Baltoy
    Beldum
    Chimchar
    Cyndaquil
    Duskull
    Eevee
    Feebas
    Flabebe
    Krabby
    Magikarp
    Pumpkaboo (Large & Medium)
    Rattata
    Tyrogue
    Yamask

    Discussion points:
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 30, 2017
  2. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345
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    i'd put cutiefly at S. qd + bp is broken and it has a great typing, though others have elaborated on it in the metagame thread.

    mareanie could afford to go to A- or A, B+ seems really unfair to it considering it's such a good pokemon for all the setup rn (haze recover stabs is great) and it's not /that/ weak to trappers (lo dig doesnt ohko and you ko back, other stuff is goth bait too)

    i'd also put drilbur higher, you guys need to try SD + SR which is really threatening to a lot of teams rn and busts through mag

    doduo and pikipek higher?? lo sets are threatening, even with jump kick + knock off not being legal doduo's really threatening. scarf doduo is really nice too

    EDIT - i don't think vullaby is s from my experiences with it; i'm probably doing it wrong though, i'll use it more before i form a better opinion on it
    Trace, TheWall, Cheryl. and 4 others like this.
  3. Corporal Levi

    Corporal Levi
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    You may be wondering why some of the changes were made from the ORAS viability rankings, so here is a summary of why notable changes down to B- happened or didn't happen.

    What moved:

    Vullaby: A+ -> S
    Vullaby has always been effective at what it does, but now it can effectively do so many more things. It'll be tough to figure out which Vullaby set you're up against because it's so splashable. Pawniard Knocking Off Vullaby may be just what the Z-Mirror Move set needs to sweep. Try revenge-killing Vullaby with Cutiefly and you may be met with a Scarf Brave Bird instead.

    Cutiefly: A+
    Despite all attempts to check it, Cutiefly has still managed to cement itself as a top thanks to Quiver Dance, Baton Pass, and all the right coverage/supporting moves. Whether you're using it to sweep directly, support a Porygon waiting in the wings, or even check things with its great typing, Cutiefly can be hard to pass up.

    Mudbray: A+
    I'm sure you already know how good Mudbray is, so I'll actually explain why it's not S. Mudbray doesn't have much of a defensive niche, meaning it's mostly included in free slots. In addition, unlike any other S rank, it is actually possible to hard check in a single teamslot, so while a very strong Pokemon, it doesn't feel as omnipresent as the current S-ranks do.

    Abra: A -> A+
    Now that Shellder has competition for top sweeper, Sashbra is back in business! With the presence of Cutiefly, Psych Up + Psyshock is now so much more than a gimmick, in addition to preventing Abra from becoming CM Gothita setup bait. Abra also checks Scraggy and enjoys the rise in Poison-types.

    Gothita: A -> A+
    Gothita synergizes fantastically with many of the best sweepers in the metagame, especially Cutiefly and Scraggy. It does a great job at eliminating troublesome Poison- and Fighting-types, and the CM variant all but guarantees the removal of Spritzee. A lot of people consider GothFly and ScragGoth even stronger than ShellDig!

    Scraggy: B+ -> A+
    The two things that troubled Scraggy the most last gen were Fletchling and Fairy-types. Well, Fletchling has been heavily nerfed, and the most popular offensive Fairy-type, Cottonee, can no longer affect Dark-types with Prankster moves, leaving it susceptible to Poison Jab. Meanwhile, the ever popular Gothita traps Fighting- and Poison-types. As long as Scraggy avoids revenge-killers, it pretty much has free reign with its fantastic STABs and coverage, which is not a pretty sight.

    Staryu: A- -> A
    Staryu hasn't actually gotten better - it's still as passive and Gothita-weak as ever. But the other hazard removers are in an even worse state, and in Vullaby's case, almost feel like a waste of a great offensive Pokemon. Staryu is often stuck onto a team purely for its utility, and as a result, ends up as one of the most splashable Pokemon around.

    Doduo: B -> A-
    Doduo already had a strong Knock Off and an absurdly powerful Brave Bird; now it also has great physical coverage in Jump Kick and less competition from Fletchling. It may be the frailest of the high tier birds, but Doduo is also by far the most immediately threatening.

    Dwebble: B+ -> A-
    Hazard removal is tough to come by, which means hazard stacking is great! Dwebble has always been the poster child of hazard stack, but now it has a more reliable bulky Weak Armor + Eviolite set to work with. Metagame shifts have rendered Dwebble arguably more effective than its main competition in Omanyte, so as the premier offensive hazard stacker in LC, Dwebble's position in the A ranks is secured.

    Munchlax: B+ -> A-
    Despite barely clinging to B+ last gen, the increased presence of Cutiefly and weather has made Munchlax's previously rather small niche as a Special wall much more important. Phazing is very useful with the increase in hazard stack and Baton Pass; thanks to its great Special bulk, Whirlwind Munchlax can cause quite the headache for quickpass and full Baton Pass chains alike.

    Onix: B+ -> A-
    Onix was already on the verge of rising before; soft checking Cutiefly and having Gothita help to shut down Fighting-types only serves to amplify its niche.

    Rufflet: C+ -> A-
    Thanks to the addition of Brave Bird to its movepool, Rufflet is no longer held back by a lack of strong Flying-type STAB compared to other birds. If you can't decide Vullaby's bulk, sweeping potential, and access to U-turn or Doduo's raw power, Rufflet gets some degree of both. However, this comes at the significant cost of lacking Knock Off.

    Mareanie: B+
    Though not as influential as Cutiefly or Mudbray, Mareanie has still made an impact on the metagame thanks to Regenerator, fantastic set of resistances, and access to key support moves in Haze and Toxic Spikes. Being weak to trappers has definitely hindered it, but at least it's not setup bait for CM Gothita.

    Archen: A- -> B+
    One of Archen's main uses was checking Fletchling, which is much less useful now, and Rufflet, Doduo, and setup variants of Vullaby are able to break through Archen much more easily. Archen also dislikes the increase in Mudbray, Staryu, and Scarf Gothita.

    Drilbur: A- -> B+
    In addition to Diglett, Drilbur now has Mudbray to compete with for a slot as the Ground-type on a team. It also matches poorly against Scraggy, Staryu, Pumpkaboo, and stronger birds.

    Omanyte: A- -> B+
    Although it was approaching mid A in gen 6, Shell Smash Omanyte now has serious issues setting up without Fletchling in the tier; Vullaby frequently has its offensive stats boosted while Doduo and Rufflet have strong Fighting coverage. It also really needs Modest to get the KOs it wants, meaning it only hits 26 Speed after a Shell Smash, but the 27 and 28 Speed tiers have been inflated, leaving Omanyte more easily revenge-killed. Whirlwind Munchlax makes matters worse. The hazard stacking set now has serious competition from Weak Armor Dwebble, whose set of weaknesses often hinder it less.

    Timburr: A+ -> B+
    Talk about a fall from grace - despite a great new partner in Grimer-Alola, the metagame is extremely unfriendly to Timburr right now. Bulk Up is by far its best set, but being walled by Fairy-types is a much bigger deal with Cutiefly around. Mareanie completely shuts down Timburr with Haze, and Foongus is running Clear Smog more often than before to deal with Cutiefly and Baton Pass. Although Fletchling is gone, Doduo and Rufflet are even more threatening to Timburr. Vullaby and Gothita being even more prominent than before only makes matters worse.

    Pumpkaboo-Super: B -> B+
    Not everything new to B+ was dropped down to it! Though Pumpkaboo is still quite passive, its defensive niche is more important than before. Giga Drain allows it to hard check Mudbray, and spinblocking Staryu makes Pumpkaboo a good teammate for hazard stacking.

    Torchic: B -> B+
    Torchic was already one of the better mid B Pokemon, but cool new quickpass recipients and Cutiefly strengthening Baton Pass chains makes bulky Torchic even better.

    Grimer-Alola: B
    With strong STAB attacks and Poison Touch, Grimer-A has solid offensive presence alongside its utility in trapping the hugely important Gothita, Abra, and Gastly. However, it is almost completely shut down by Mudbray and is trapped by Diglett; in addition, its lack of recovery and few resistances mean it gets worn down quite quickly despite its decent bulk.

    Sandshrew-Alola: B
    Hail has turned out to be surprisingly effective, and Sandshrew-A is its main abuser. Despite its gaping weaknesses, Sandshrew-A remains quite potent under Hail thanks to its excellent coverage, good Attack, and access to Swords Dance.

    Skrelp: B+ -> B
    Skrelp still has its typing and power, but Gothita, is more widespread than ever, including its troublesome Calm Mind set, and RestTalk Skrelp now directly competes with Mareanie.

    Amaura: B- -> B, Snover: C+ -> B-
    With the newfound viability of Hail, Hail setters are of course better than before! Amaura is generally the first choice for this role thanks to its coverage and access to Stealth Rock to pressure switch-ins, but Snover's priority useful typing offers its own advantages.

    Aipom: B+ -> B-
    Once one of the scariest wallbreakers in the metagame, Aipom has met its match in Stamina Mudbray; no longer is Aipom almost impossible to safely switch into. Weak Armor Dwebble also sets up hazards in Aipom's face. Mienfoo, Gothita, and Vullaby are now frequently donning a Choice Scarf, meaning Aipom is forced out by revenge-killers more often.

    Buneary: C+ -> B-
    With all the hype surrounding Conversion Porygon and Mirror Move Vullaby, one big z-move related buff is often forgotten - Buneary's Splash! Outright sweeping sets may have trouble differentiating from Zigzagoon, though +3 Return and Quick Attack is no laughing matter. Splash Buneary's main draw is its access to Baton Pass.

    What didn't move:

    The ORAS S-ranks
    Pawniard is the closest to moving down due to the Sucker Punch nerf and Vullaby more frequently running anti-Pawniard coverage, but its ranking is still primarily because of its numerous resistances and incredibly threatening Knock Off, both of which it has kept. Mienfoo hasn't been as badly hindered by Cutiefly and Gothita as Timburr has; it's always had a free coverage moveslot which is now more often than not Poison Jab or Stone Edge, and U-turn, Knock Off, and decent Speed give Mienfoo plenty of counterplay against Gothita. Its Scarf set has actually gotten better due to being able to revenge-kill Scraggy and not having to deal with Fletchling as often. Diglett remains relatively unchanged, revenge-killing Eviolite Pawniard more easily but having its own priority move slightly weakened. Porygon has been outright buffed, as it now has Z-Conversion to add to its already immense arsenal.

    Foongus
    The metagame shifts have affected Foongus a lot, but the net effect is more or less neutral. Gothita becoming more popular is a big blow to Foongus's viability; on the other hand, Foongus gains a niche as a repeated check to Cutiefly, Fletchling has been nerfed, Mienfoo rarely runs anti-Foongus coverage anymore, and being able to absorb Toxic Spikes is slightly more important than before.

    Magnemite
    Mudbray may ruin Magnemite's day, but at least it's not as bad for Scarf Magnemite as the now uncommon Berry Juice Drilbur. Meanwhile, Cutiefly, Mareanie, sweeping variants of Vullaby, and to a lesser extent Sandshrew-Alola all join the list of Pokemon that SturdyJuice Magnemite soft checks.

    Cottonee
    Despite not annoying Scraggy and Nasty Plot Vullaby as much anymore, as well as being hampered by an increase in Poison-types, Cottonee still supports Shellder as well as ever, and appreciates enemy Shellder being less likely to carry Ice Shard. It also enjoys not having to deal with Fletchling.

    Ponyta
    Not lowering Ponyta is very debatable; being walled by RestTalk Mudbray, Staryu, Munchlax, and Mareanie really sucks, and Vullaby often being Nasty Plot doesn't help, either. On the other hand, checking Cutiefly is very useful, and it is fairly irritating for Sun and Hail as well.

    Croagunk
    Croagunk doesn't mind Cutiefly as much as other Fighting-types due to its Poison STAB, and unlike Timburr, it has some counterplay around Gothita with Bulk Up Sucker Punch. Sucker Punch is also much more useful against Doduo and Scarf Rufflet than it was against Fletchling. Struggling so much against Mudbray definitely hurts, but it is mostly offset by being able to check the more frequently Zen Headbutt-less Scraggy quite well.

    Hippopotas
    Hippopotas may now compete with Mudbray as a bulky Ground-type, but the increased importance of Whirlwind, being able to hard check Sun, and cutting Sandshrew-Alola's sweep short all help to ensure that Hippotas's niche isn't any smaller than it was before.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
  4. Holiday

    Holiday Ain't Never Had The Dedication
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    Carvanha to A+ and Salandit to C+

    Pairing Carvanha with Cutiefly is actually fairly good. Physical Fish still hits things BOUT hard as shit, and Psychic Fangs is a pretty cool addition to the movepool. Cutiefly handles the fighting types that try to muscle through it, and the drop off of Timburr is awesome for Vanha. Special Fish is also cool, as it can nuke more physically-defensive mons with Boosts passed from Cutiefly. Speed Boost of course is still super good, and Carv can just do so much currently, and I think it's (along with snivy, but I still need to play with it a bit) a cut above the rest of A right now.

    Salandit is prone to the trappers which is pretty bad, but it's pretty strong with its STABs and Knock Off. Solid Speed as well, and with Flame Charge it can get past the trappers. Definitely not the first choice with Goth and Dig running around, but i think it's a decent mon nonetheless.

    Interested in Cutiefly to S as well
    Fresher Than You and Funbot28 like this.
  5. Sage of the 6

    Sage of the 6

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    Sorry to derail this thread but when reading I noticed the word "splashable" to describe Vullaby, I've seen multiple usage of the word and don't know what it means could someone explain por favor?
  6. Evan.

    Evan.
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    basically when a mon is splashable it means that it's relatively easy to put onto a team. that can be due to the number of roles it compresses in a single team slot (x mon or type check / revenge killer / wallbreaker / etc) or if it has a bunch of different sets that fit on a variety of different team and playstyles. vullaby fills both of these definitions which therefore makes people consider it a splashable mon

    in the future its probably just better to direct this kind of question to the simple questions simple answer thread since it doesnt really belong in a VR but live and learn i guess haha
  7. Nineage

    Nineage Spooky Pachyderm
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    Proposing that Cottonee be moved down to B+ or A-.

    While I understand Corporal Levi's logic to an extent, I don't think the fact that Cottonee beats one thing more reliably and is less hindered by Fletchling is much of an argument. The fact is, three of the metagame defining playstyles right now, BirdSpam, DarkSpam, and Hail are frankly not bothered at all by Cottonee. As Levi mentioned, Poison types are on the rise, and Poison coverage is on the rise along with it. Poison Jab is increasingly common in the fourth moveslot on Mienfoo (at least, as far as I've seen), making it scarier for Cottonee to switch in and reliably check it. It maintains the niche it had in Generation VI as acting as a deterrent to setup, but the amount of total Pokemon it is able to check have been reduced, and it can't even act as a check to Ground-types anymore with the most common Ground-type frequently running Heavy Slam.

    Essentially, I don't disagree with anything Levi said. Cottonee is still decent as a setup check, still a good partner for Shellder, and now a better check to opposing Shellder. However, in light of the rise in new playstyles and the Encore mechanics changes, Cottonee becomes more of a liability to run on a team than it ever was in Gen VI.
    Slurmz, Rowan, Merritt and 7 others like this.
  8. Altariel von Sweep

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    I nominate Stufful to Rank B-.

    Stufful's capacity of mitigate any physical attack is very appreciated on balance teams. It has a nice HP, decent natural bulk and great coverage, Bulk Up gives it extra bulk to tank extremely good many strong attacks, but it always has a bad time against Fire-types, which can deal a serious damage to it, having their damage doubled. Also, it lacks a reliable recovery, like Drain Punch, so it must use always Berry Juice, and it has too many counters and checks, like Cutiefly, Spritzee, Gothita... more exactly special attackers, which Stufful struggles and loses.

    That's why I think this is a good rank for it.
    Last edited: Nov 22, 2016
  9. Imanalt

    Imanalt I'm the coolest girl you'll ever meet
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    I have a couple issues w/ this list. First off I'd propose moving rufflet -> unlisted until we have actually had a chance to play around with brave bird rufflet in this metagame, and potentially put an asterisk next to staryu and doduo as they will likely move when they have corrected legality.

    Anyways, those semantics aside, I feel like S rank is too crowded. We have a feeling of "S rank is about as good as it was last gen," but I don't feel like that's true at all. Two pokemon really stand above everything else right now (diglett and porygon), and should probably be in a tier of their own, either S+ or moving the other S rank mons down. Diglett is just insane in that it synergizes well with almost every strong attacker in the tier right now, removing a majority of the answers to them with one of the life orb set and the reversal set. Porygon is obvious. Everyone knows how crazy scary the conversion boltbeam set is, and defensive trace porygon is also lowkey really really strong right now. It synergizes amazingly with mareanie for defensive teams, and is one of the only consistent chinchou answers (as always). Not only this, but it is also one of the best answers to mudbray, tracing stamina and actually often becoming a wincon of sorts as porygon at +2 defense can be very very difficult for a lot of teams to kill.

    Next, there are a few mons that I think are currently in the wrong place by more than a little bit.
    First mareanie. This mon is crazy good. Its super vulnerable to trapping, losing to goth and diglett (although life orb diglett only ohkos 24/16 mareanie 1/16th of the time, but with 1 damage that jumps to 15/16), which holds it back a lot, but it is also absolutely crucial to managing to answer all the potent offensive threats in the current metagame on one fat team. It is checks fighting mons, cutiefly (and prevents bp with haze), nonsd pawniard (and does ok vs sd pawn as well, since it has a chance to burn and then can haze the sd away), and shellder, as well as being a decent last ditch check to a ton of things and being able to spread status with scald or tspikes. Mareanie just doesn't die if it doesn't get trapped by diglett or goth. It should probably be A rank, as it is crucial to almost any defensive team.

    Foongus This mon is still good, but it sees some competition from mareanie with a lot of overlap in what they check, and has most of the same flaws as well. Being a grass type that can't switch into ground moves is also unhelpful in a metagame where mudbray is very strong, and so i think foongus is a bit overrated, and should probably be in A- rank.

    Munchlax I have no idea why this is so low to be honest. Munchlax is the only consistent answer to qdfly and porzgon in the tier that isn't complete trapper fodder. It also can provide a ton of value as a pursuit trapper to help handle abra and gothita. In my opinion this thing should probably move to A+ rank as it just matches up too well vs the strongest things in the current meta.

    Dewpider I'm not exactly sure how high this pokemon should go, but it is a lot too low as it is. It has a decent defensive typing and good special bulk that allow it to come in decently well, and then it sort of just nukes things. Its liquidation does as much as 75% to mienfoo, ohkos most mudbray, and is just generally hard to switch into, especially with the potential for defense drops. It is definitely held back by its speed and rocks weakness, but its good bulk (for example, sash abra psychic only 2hkos with 2 1/16 rolls) and resists (walling mudbray w/o rockslide) let it find chances to fire off its nukes, and it has decent staying power with restalk and leech life. Suggesting it for B or B+ rank.

    I'm pretty sure there were a couple mons that I disagreed with other than these, but I forget them now so this is all y'all get.
  10. Merritt

    Merritt

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    There feels like a lot of rank inflation is present - at least in part due to keeping the ORAS banlist - and so a lot of things should probably move down a rank. S rank being 5 mons seems a bit like overkill, and honestly Pawniard at least, probably Mienfoo and Vullaby too, should move down to A+. A+ overall seems pretty good, although maybe Shellder could move down to A? From A there's a good bit of stuff that could (and honestly should) move down, like Ponyta, Cottonee, and honestly Snivy hasn't wowed me all that much so far.

    The main thing is that the rankings right now seem to indicate an incredibly decentralized metagame with "too many" top threats, and if the viability rankings council believes that's the state of the metagame then I suppose it's fine, but that hasn't really been the impression I've gotten from my (granted somewhat limited) playing. I think that a general lowering of ranking should happen though - it's always been easier for things to rise up than to lower a large number of things later on.

    (Also Litten doesn't get Intimidate yet, remove it from rankings)
  11. Rowan

    Rowan The professor?
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    Mudbray should be like A- or A at best. You justified it not being S, but those same reasons apply to it not being A+ as well. It's really easily hard-countered by almost every grass types with Giga Drain, and many things are running Special moves just to get around it. I've already seen Hydro Pump Shellder, and Pumpkaboo has changed from Bullet Seed to Giga Drain on most sets. It can wall many physical attackers, but as long as your team has a special attacker that outspeeds it, it's never really a huge problem. It has to rely on restalk for recovery, which just means it's walled by a lot, or if it goes more offensive it doesn't last long or gets forced out. I just feel like it's new-mon hype but it'll start to drop down imo.

    Agreeing with putting Munchlax at like A+, just because of the meta around it. Cutie and Porygon are busted as fuck, and Munchlax reliably counters them. Not much to say other than that.
  12. Kingler12345

    Kingler12345
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    disagree with a mudbray drop entirely. this thing is pretty horrible to face. resttalk is REALLY bulky (it lives a +2 ice beam from timid porygon [which is what por-z-gon runs], for reference) and it can go head-to-head with stuff like timburr very easily due to its ability. on your team you'll have like two things that really deal with it. staryu is 2hkoed and pumpkaboo is forced to recover on switch-in (giga drain is so ridiculously weak against most stuff and the fact that it uses that solely for mudbray speaks a lot). it can run close combat to dissuade trace porygon from switching in (yes, that 2hkoes on the switchin even with stamina). its weight means that ground resists can't really take a heavy slam all that well. 20 attack is nothing to sleep on.

    i don't feel like mudbray is S but like A+ seems more than fair for it
  13. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    Staryu can run Analytic with Hydro Pump and Rapid Spin now. Only matters on the LO set, which is meh, but it did get a buff!
  14. Coconut

    Coconut Tournament Banned
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    I'm pretty sure he's aware of this, the problem is that it still isn't good enough to warrant a higher ranking. It still has the same problems that it had before.
  15. MKL122788

    MKL122788

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    I want to say that I think the approach to Dewpider so far hasn't been as complete, as I've seen mostly analysis from the physical side. On Araquanid, you have a reason to lean physical since he has significantly higher attack than special attack. I am not sure why Dewpider leans physical so often in calculations when his two attacks are the same and there are better options for him attacking from the special side in surf for raw damage or scald for general usefulness. Furthermore, special defenses tend to be lower than physical defenses.

    Allow me to introduce my special set!

    A modest Dewpider with perfect IVs and a 52/0/20/196/20/220 EV spread and scarf hits the stats 21/9/12/14(28)/14/12(18). He can 2 shot basically all the same threats. He doesn't have the leech life sustainability, but I am not sure that really sustains him in most situations anyway.

    My imagined set is something like this:

    Dewpider @ Choice Scarf
    Ability: Water Bubble
    Level: 5
    EVs: 52/0/20/196/20/220
    Nature: Modest
    IVs: 31/0/31/31/31/31
    - Scald
    - Surf
    - Sleep Talk

    Honestly not sure I'd even run a 4th move. This allows his to function as a sleep absorber without in any way hampering his damaging capabilities. It has an effective special attack of 28 with water type moves, which is ridiculous.

    Of course, there are negatives where you basically want to run monoattacking type for best use, but the choice scarf set is a really good late game sweeper with huge advantages that has virtually no switch ins.

    This build packs a lot of surprise factor with just how hard it hits and burns can really ruin peoples days since they tend to not expect scald coming.
    I like donkeys likes this.
  16. Pikasohn

    Pikasohn

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    Vulpix-Alola (F) @ Light Clay
    Ability: Snow Warning
    Level: 5
    Shiny: Yes
    EVs: 76 HP / 196 SpA / 236 Spe
    Timid Nature
    - Aurora Veil
    - Freeze-Dry
    - Moonblast
    - Ice Shard / Encore

    While it's true that vulpix is pretty lackluster as an all out attacker, it really does have a lot of potential as a 8 turn Aurora Veil setter. It has a decent movepool and Aurora Veil's 50% dmg reduction support really helps out a lot. I'd say Alola Vulpix is being way too underestimated. (Alola Sandshrew is the real trash... bring it down)

    I suggest
    C >>> B/B-
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
  17. Darkamber8828

    Darkamber8828

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    That looks really sick. Does Aurora Veil get Brick Break'd?

    EDIT: or Defog'd?
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2016
  18. chicobo329

    chicobo329

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    Been a while since I've posted but regarding Porygon and Z-Conversion...can't you just Snatch it? Snatch has priority and in theory at least it should give you the +1 boosts instead and also uses up the opponent's one Z-move.
  19. Nineage

    Nineage Spooky Pachyderm
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    The fact that you would be running Snatch on a Pokemon over another move in order to do this is just a testament to how metagame defining Porygon is right now.
  20. Patrickmexiquinn

    Patrickmexiquinn

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    Bidoof Unranked --> C+/B- (I know we aren't supposed to make such big jumps but it got a HUGE buff)

    Why is no one talking about Bidoof??? I know I sound crazy but hear me out. The Derp Lord now get's access to swords dance which can take a max attack adamant Bidoof to a God Level Attack Stat of 45 with only one turn of set up. Allowing Bidoof now to act as both an amazing wall breaker and as a later game cleaner or revenge killer with STAB Quick Attack. Now Who's ready for a Rotten's Rampage?
    The Set
    Carnage (Bidoof) @ Eviolite
    Ability: Simple
    Level: 5
    Happiness: 0
    EVs: 236 Atk / 116 Def / 116 SpD / 40 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Quick Attack
    - Frustration
    - Crunch/Super Power
    - Swords Dance
    The Sets main focus is to be able to set on as many things as possible and then fill the role of wall-breaker or sweeper depending on the match up. With 22/18/18 defenses this little rodent is deceptively bulky and just one Swords Dance puts you in the drivers seat as your opponent is forced to react. For the last attack I'd advise Crunch over Super Power so the set can hit ghost types but Super Power does have a niche as it crushes all steels in the tier (bar Honedge which Crunch Handles). Another set that can be run is some kinda of max speed + Life Orb set but I but I haven't tested that yet. I am not saying its the best thing ever the speed is a flaw and it does prefer chip damage but it is way better than unranked.

    The Calcs http://pastebin.com/bDJKkVkQ
    Last edited: Nov 28, 2016
  21. Complicating

    Complicating

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    Cutiefly to S rank. Cutiefly is such a huge threat in LC for a good reason. Both its typing and access to quiver dance (and baton pass) make it a necessity for a team to handle just about. Cutiefly could easily move up because of how well it carries out its role on a team as either a sweeper or baton pass+QD support. Already being one of the fastest pokemon in LC, Cutiefly can use its typing to create an easy matchup where it can start boosting and doing whatever its role is. After a boost, there are essentially no pokemon bar scarfed Elekid and Diglett that can outspeed Cutiefly unless Cutiefly isn't running max speed or has neutral nature on speed. And even then, I've never once encountered a pokemon in LC that has a max speed of 18 or more that is also scarfed. The only viable thing that comes to mind to fit that description would be Gastly or Salandit. And even then, max Speed with a positive nature cutiefly hits 19, which after one QD outspeeds regardless. Cutiefly not only has BP+QD, but also has access to reliable recovery via roost. Cutiefly's movepool isn't shabby either, as STAB moonblast is not only a good move, it's a strong fairy type move which has no immunities. Moonblast with coverage only adds more strength whereas Cutiefly can still sweep with just moonblast as its only attack if it so chose to. Of course it needs an eviolite to function well due to its fairly average or slightly below average bulk. Cutiefly also needs a boost or 2 to deal strong damage and reliably sweep; however, the threat of baton pass remains. Sure we have ways of dealing with cutiefly and stat boost+BP, but nobody can deny that Cutiefly has changed a bit of the style of the metagame due to the primary roles it can have on a team. Whirlwind Munchlax, psych up+psyshock sashAbra, among other specific sets for various pokemon that pretty much exist because of Cutiefly's presence. If those qualities and traits of a pokemon aren't good enough for S rank, I don't know what is.
    TimG57867, mad0ka, wishes and 5 others like this.
  22. Aconit

    Aconit

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    klink is probably better than D imo

    Klink @ Berry Juice
    Ability: Clear Body
    Level: 5
    EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe
    Adamant Nature
    - Shift Gear
    - Gear Grind
    - Wild Charge
    - Recycle

    Well, does not care bout stuff like Cutiefly (great switch-ins to fairies in general), hits quite hard after one shift gear, Also it hard checks Abra and probably some others things.
    terrible coverage though, but it deserves probably a better rank than D, like C or C-
  23. TheTraininator

    TheTraininator

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    Klink was D because prior to Sun and Moon, it didn't get any level up moves past level 5. Thanks to the change in the move relearner, ti finally got its full moveset, but this ranking was mostly copy pasted from ORAS, so Klink hasn't had any kind of ranking change yet.
  24. Coconut

    Coconut Tournament Banned
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    Not quite...

    Klink has a lack of solid options, is one dimensional, and most importantly: there's plenty of things to run that setup easier, do more damage and provide more team support. And with great defensive typing comes offensive typing that is absolutely lacking. It was not D-Rank in ORAS, as it was not good enough to be deemed ranked in Gen 6. So going from unranked to D was the jump that it made going into the SM metagame.
  25. TheTraininator

    TheTraininator

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    Ah, my bad, I forgot E-rank existed in Little Cup's Viability Rankings and assumed D was the "everything else" rank. Don't get me wrong, I don't think "buffed" Klink is that great either, I was just saying that its ranking theoretically might be off at this point because this is the first time it has access to decent moves.

    EDIT: Oh and I just noticed that Porygon is still ranked. Probably doesn't need stating, but it should probably be removed soon.
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