Resource LC SuMo Viability Rankings (updated @ post #204)

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sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
Alolan Sandshrew for B+/A-

This thing is really good, even outside of hail. Even though it has 3 glaring weaknesses, it also boasts a ton of resists, allowing it to switch into a ton of attacks. Its like one of 2 mons not named Staryu that can reliably spin away hazards, and since its usually running scarf outside of hail, its not safe for things like Sash Diglett or Abra to do things because it can run Icicle Spear. It has really good coverage in Iron Head/Earthquake that gives it pretty much near perfect coverage and makes it really hard to switch into sometimes, and can allow it to clean up late game. Just really good role compression, and definitly deserves to be higher.

Grimer Alola for A-/A

Grimer just eats up all sorts of attacks and deals respectable damage to everything. STAB Knock Off is always good, and its ability gives it a chance to poison an enemy mon, which is always super annoying. It gets super nice priority in Shadow Sneak, and can trap things with Pursuit, giving a hard time to Abra and Gastly. It eats up nearly every move from Bellsprout, making it even a Sun check. Nothing enjoys switching into this in fear of losing their item except for like Pawniard. Really splashable as well, boasting only one weakness etc etc. Its super good, doesn't really belong in B+.
 

Corporal Levi

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Cottonee has gotten worse at checking some sweepers but it's also gotten better at supporting them, as it's probably the best Z-move user after Vullaby. Z-Memento is fantastic for allowing huge threats like Vullaby to less riskily apply pressure early game. Normalium Z paired with Nature Power (which is affected by Prankster and is converted into Tri Attack), possibly Growth lets Cottonee lure Scarf birds with some prior damage, and do a big chunk to Knocked Foongus, as well as giving Cottonee some real revenge-killing power in a metagame that greatly appreciates priority (though unfortunately Cottonee's Nature Power doesn't affect Vullaby). Cottonee still has all its usual tricks with Knock Off, Encore, Stun Spore, Tailwind, a good speed tier for a support Pokemon and a decent set of STAB moves; just as importantly, it synergizes fantastically with notable sweepers such as Shellder and Tirtouga.

Purely as a defensive Pokemon, Cottonee is badly outclassed by Foongus, but this has always been the case; it finds a niche for its utility on offensive teams, and that has only gotten better.


All of Nineage's suggestions will be put through if nobody is disagreeing. Munchlax/Foongus/Spritzee/Scraggy/Staryu in particular just seem intuitive to me.

Staryu and Foongus are almost flawless now that Gothita are gone and have kept their huge strengths, putting them at a level of hardly any risk/medium-to-high reward comparable to S and upper A+ Pokemon, respectively. Spritzee is at least back to the level it was at in ORAS, which was A-. The only other Pokemon that disliked Gothita as much as those three is Mareanie, but seeing how it competes directly with overall better Pokemon in Staryu and Slowpoke as a bulky Water and Foongus as a bulky Poison, I feel it's safe to say the initial hype for a new mon was a big reason for it having such a high ranking to begin with. Shellder probably won't be moved to S because while it's harder to spinblock than defensive Staryu (but easier to spinblock than LO Staryu, since it has to predict perfectly against more niche spinblockers like Frillish and Z-Trick-or-Treat Pumpkaboo-Small), it's much easier for the hazard setters to simply outlast.

Scraggy and Carvanha were the two sweepers that appreciated Gothita the most; they both now suffer from the influx of Fighting-, Fairy-, and Poison-types. However, Carvanha is able to get around its checks more easily by nature, as it can weaken its checks and "set up" for a sweep simultaneously, whereas Scraggy has to predict perfectly on whether it should attack or Dragon Dance. As a result, Carvanha remains a decent choice on fishspam and darkspam, whereas darkspam and fightspam would much prefer Pawniard/Vullaby or Mienfoo/Timburr over Scraggy most of the time. It also helps that Carvanha was arguably at the top of A during the Gothita meta while Scraggy was near the bottom, so it makes sense that Scraggy might move down while Carvanha stays at A. I could see a case being made for Carvanha moving down as well, though.

Munchlax lost almost all of its niche with the bans of Porygon and Cutiefly, and its weaknesses compared to ORAS have actually been amplified now that Timburr is better. It's not a very good Vullaby check because though it handles Nasty Plot Vullaby, it loses to z-MM. Even its niche as a Pursuit trapper is usually done better by Grimer-A. The main reason left to use Munchlax is as a Sun check, which seems like a good fit for a mon in B. It probably shouldn't move any lower because defensive B- Pokemon generally rely solely on role compression to form a niche.

Personally, I don't agree with Rufflet moving down because while it's not very good at revenge-killing, the amount of pressure such a strong Flying-type move puts on most teams is unmatched regardless of whether Rufflet is running Scarf or a bulkier set, but if the overall opinion is that it should move down, that's fine.


Here are some other nominations that need to see more discussion before they are put through or rejected.

Chinchou up to A
Tirtouga up to A-
Wynaut up to B-
Snubbull up to A
Drilbur to up to A-
Honedge down to C
A-Grimer up to A-
A-Vulpix up to B
Abra up to A+
A-Sandshrew up to B+

I agree with Chinchou up to A because it's one of two hard checks to Staryu, which is huge right now, while not losing momentum like Ferroseed, and is pretty much the only reliable non-Rock-type bird check left, on top of checking a few other notable threats; agree with Tirtouga to A- because again, bird checks are tough to come by, and Tirtouga has arguably the most sweeping potential of them (SS Omanyte tends not to be bulky enough to check birds well); agree with Honedge down because its niche is way too small, and using it too costly, to warrant B-; agree with A-Grimer up because B/B+ was a cautious initial ranking and it's since more than proven how potent its combination of bulk, power, and utility is; disagree with Abra up to A+ because it's still quite match-up dependent in that Sashbra does very little to defensive teams and LO Abra is in a tough spot against offense, while neither is overwhelming to the other; disagree with A-Sandshrew up to B+ because Sun is usually the more threatening weather over Hail, and its weaknesses are simply too prominent to warrant significant use outside of Hail; neutral towards Wynaut rising, but I don't think it should be because of Gothita's ban seeing how it maintained its position of being pretty average throughout XY and a good part of ORAS before real competition in CM Gothita arose; and on the fence for the other nominations.



Anyway, Fiend and I have been meaning to do a revamp of the lower tiers for ages, but every time we just tell ourselves we'll do it in the next update. Well, that ends sometime soon, hopefully maybe! The goal is to cut back on the nominations for getting unranked Pokemon on the list that are detracting from the overall discussion.
Previously, we didn't have a hard cutoff for a Pokemon to be ranked, so D rank was basically a list of all the cutest unviable mons. From now on, when you nominate a mon to be ranked, you must a. explain why it is worth using, and b. give an example of a team on which it is genuinely one of the better choices. In other words, simply listing off a Pokemon's strengths, or how it barely differentiates itself, won't cut it.

For example, to make a case for A-Diglett remaining ranked, I give a team where it would genuinely be worth using:
Hippopotas @ Eviolite
Ability: Sand Stream
Level: 5
EVs: 132 HP / 20 Atk / 212 Def / 100 SpD / 20 Spe
Impish Nature
- Stealth Rock
- Earthquake
- Whirlwind
- Slack Off

Diglett-Alola @ Life Orb
Ability: Sand Force
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 236 Atk / 36 Def / 196 Spe
Adamant Nature
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Iron Head
- Sucker Punch

Mienfoo @ Eviolite
Ability: Regenerator
Level: 5
EVs: 156 HP / 116 Def / 196 SpD
Impish Nature
- U-turn
- Knock Off
- Drain Punch
- Fake Out

Staryu @ Eviolite
Ability: Natural Cure
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 236 Def / 40 SpA / 80 Spe
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk / 30 SpA / 30 Spe
- Rapid Spin
- Scald
- Hidden Power [Fire]
- Recover

Grimer-Alola @ Eviolite
Ability: Poison Touch
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 196 Atk / 36 Def / 196 SpD
Adamant Nature
- Shadow Sneak
- Knock Off
- Poison Jab
- Pursuit

Morelull @ Eviolite
Ability: Effect Spore
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 236 Def / 156 SpD
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Spore
- Giga Drain
- Moonblast
- Strength Sap
This is a sand team, the rock to hail's paper and sun's scissors. When you think of Sand sweepers, Drilbur and Sandshrew should be the first to come to mind, since they are much more resilient to priority than A-Diglett, as well as more useful outside of Sand; but when you look at the rest of the team, you'll notice that it goes for a more stallish approach, relying on chip damage to wear out the opponent, and so stacking Ground-types inevitably opens holes that the bulkier side of the team struggles to cover. Hidden Power Fire is necessary on Staryu so that it can check A-Sandshrew and provide a real way to get around Ferroseed, but leaves the team easily swept by Shell Smashers like Shellder and Omanyte, and reliant on the easily worn down A-Grimer to check Fairy-types. A-Diglett helps with this by hitting Shell Smashers with Sucker Punch, provided they have been weakened beforehand, and soft checking fairies with its barely adequate Iron Head.

Here is a summary of why we have decided to keep the D-rank mons we did keep. You'll notice that although most of the teams these Pokemon end up on will be quite gimmicky due to their weaknesses being more prominent than their strengths, they still have well-defined niches on well-defined cores and archetypes.

Diglett-Alola: priority and Steel-typing over other Sand sweepers
Rattata-Alola: strong dedicated wall-breaker with easily the best priority among Pokemon at its level of power (Cranidos-level Attack after Hustle; Return is comparable to Sheer Force Rock Slide)
Ekans: reliable Fighting check that can immediately cripple switch-ins more than most other bulky Poisons (Gunk Shot, Earthquake, Glare, Sucker Punch)
Finneon: fast Defogger that isn't weak to Stealth Rock; Water-type hazard removal that carries U-turn to not lose momentum as badly
Gible: VoltTurn deterrent due to Rough Skin and immunity to Electric (allowing it to actually block Volt Switch, unlike Ferroseed); unique set of resistances to set up Stealth Rock
Golett: Hazard setter that can block Rapid Spin
Growlithe: Significantly more reliable blanket check to physical attackers not named Pawniard than Flame Body Fire-types
Klink: Steel-type setup sweeper (allowing for semi-unique setup opportunities) that can get through a healthy Sashbra and is more likely to survive Fighting-type priority (over Pawniard)
Mime Jr: Mandatory on chainpass
Munna: Mandatory on chainpass
Oddish: Bulkiest Grass/Poison Chlorophyll sweeper while being just as strong (it needs Timid to reach the 13 Speed tier, so it's not any stronger)
Piplup: Learns both Stealth Rock and Defog; doesn't lose as badly to Fighting- and Ground-types as Kabuto
Poliwag: Aqua Jet-resistant Belly Drum sweeper (over Magby); can create its own setup opportunities with Hypnosis (over Zigzagoon, Clamperl, and Magby)
Totodile: Good Water-spam partner for Corphish due to their checks being almost entirely mutually shared, while being naturally threatening enough to hold its own in the core
Treecko: Extremely fast Grass-type sweeper (allowing for semi-unique setup opportunities) that doesn't require Sun; has access to reasonably strong Grass/Fighting/Flying coverage

This leaves us with the following to be unranked if no strong counterarguments are presented:
Binacle (?)
Cacnea
Froakie
Glameow
Grimer (?)
Helioptile
Litleo
Shroomish
Skiddo
Smoochum
Solosis
Voltorb
Wailmer
Again, simply being different in some way may have been enough to get a Pokemon an analysis last gen, but won't be enough to get it ranked. Wailmer has nice stats and was pretty insane in ADV LC, but multiple bulky Waters overlap with its defensive niche; its strengths don't give it enough of an edge over, say, Staryu or Shellos to warrant use on a competitive team. It's debatable whether Water Spout sets are worth considering to begin with, and even in that role, Wailmer is mostly outclassed by Remoraid and Frillish. Smoochum may seem like a nice wallbreaker at first with those sweet STABs, but its typing almost always leaves it inferior to other Special wall-breakers like Abra and Staryu, and its limited sweeping potential means that putting it on a typespam core doesn't cut it.
Binacle and Grimer are probably the most debatable of these. Fiend and I felt that hitting Lileep isn't nearly enough to use Binacle over other smashers (you may as well run HP Fire if you're worried about Ferroseed, which also happens to be much less obvious). Grimer could maybe do some interesting things with its combination of Sticky Hold, movepool and good tank stats (Sticky Hold Eject Button?), but someone else will have to figure out its specific niche for us.

No, Trick Room and Rain do not count as viable archetypes to be ranked by.


On top of that, we're shuffling around the lower ranks a bit. Mostly it's just that the metagame has settled enough for us to get a better impression of new Pokemon and sets, and that lower ranks weren't given much thought when I wrote up the original rankings back in December (or even when they were initially placed for that matter).

These changes are fairly straight-forward -

Morellul: C+ -> C

Bronzor: C+ -> C-
Geodude: C -> C-
Purrloin: C -> C-

Meowth-Alola: C- -> D
Wimpod: C- -> D
Yungoos: C- -> D

Whereas these warrant a bit more discussion -

Kabuto: C+ -> B-
Very cute mon, used twice as much as Bellsprout in SPL so far. As a Weak Armor hazard setter, Kabuto is easy to compare to Omanyte, where it trades greater offensive presence and access to Spikes/Toxic Spikes for a stronger Knock Off and access to Rapid Spin/Aqua Jet. Of course, Omanyte also has a Shell Smash that adds to its unpredictability and is a strong set in its own right, but Kabuto's hazard control set certainly grants it a more prominent niche than just about everything in C+.

Pumpkaboo-Small: C -> B-
The current ranking doesn't reflect the existence of a fairly threatening Z-Trick-or-Treat set. Despite Pumpkaboo's low Special Attack, Giga Drain/Fire Blast/Shadow Ball provides fantastic coverage and makes it a great cleaner in the right matchup.

Bulbasaur: C -> B-
Again, its current ranking doesn't take Z-Celebrate into account. Pumpkaboo is generally the better sweeper because it's less obvious from team preview, Trick-or-Treat is more useful than Celebrate, Fire Blast is much stronger than Hidden Power Fire, and Grass/Fire/Ghost coverage is much better than Grass/Poison or Grass/Poison/Fire. However, Bulbasaur has its own advantages in Sleep Powder and generally being stronger with Sludge Bomb. Bulbasaur also has a separate niche on extremely offensive variants of Sun as a type spam partner to Bellsprout.

Numel: C+ -> C
Now that Staryu is much more difficult to trap and Aqua Jet Tirtouga/Corphish are becoming prominent again, offensive Numel sets tend to have a rough time attempting to sweep, and can often be difficult to justify over Pokemon that only need a single turn to set up, notably Z-Sunny Day Ponyta. Defensive sets also dislike Staryu being the dominant spinner, and suffer from Diglett, as well as usually being outcompeted by Hippopotas/Onix/Drilbur as always. It's probably one of the better mid C Pokemon but its niche is quite small.

Pikipek: C+ -> C
Originally we were going to list this alongside the fairly clear-cut Morellul move, but it sounds like this isn't so straight-forward. The idea is that Bullet Seed is rather predictable despite its usefulness, and otherwise, Pikipek is far below other Flying-types; its only decent Speed and horrendous bulk means that it has to predict much better than Vullaby, Doduo, or Rufflet to pull its weight, making it difficult to justify including on a team.

That's all for now.
 
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Based on the above post I can assume it's right to give appropriate reasoning for Rattata-Alola to remain D.

While Timburr/Croagunk have gotten better, Rattata-Alola finds a surpising utility on Dark Spam Teams and Offensive teams or it's sheer wallbreaking force. While Normal/Dark seems like a bad type, it's a neutral form of coverage that hits essentially all pokemon not named Pawniard for insane damage. With Life Orb and Return Rattata-Alola can break past most currently utilized Fairy's, 2HKO any Fight type granting it the ability to keep those out. Additionally it also gets a decent utility pool in U-turn, Pursuit, Sucker Punch and niche coverage like Revenge to take on Pawniard. A prime core example to justify using Rattata-Alola for would be Scraggy as it would like to have a mon remove (or in this case lure) in Fight/Fairy/Vullaby pokemon and have them worndown significantly or removed from the game. Vullaby and Carvanha can also be substituded in this slot as they can provide other means of Removing Pawniard or more offensive pressence in Carvanha. Pawniard is the only Dark type not gaining much from Rattata-A mostly because the Life Orb/Swords Dance set acts simalar. Downside obviously being in the inability to instantly pressure Fight Types without Knock Off + later going for Iron Head.
A different set could be Choise Scarf as it gives you some additional uses but that would be mostly outclassed by Scarfed Pawniard.
On Offensive teams Rattata-Alola also finds a place to hold with strong Priority(Notably stronger then Pawniards infact), the average 17 speed tier still outspeeding a significant part of the metagame and often not having to risk the tie against most other speed tiers thanks to Sucker Punch's strengt.
It does however have to be taken in account that it risks hitting it's moves. Hustle while granting insane strengt also gives an itchy downside as it leaves you with a 80% with every move you use. Rounding down chances of you KO'ing almost all pokemon into 80-64%. Still, it beats almost all pokemon with a chance.

Additionally I could provide you with a list of damage calcs to showcase the insane amout of pokemon beaten by the basic coverage of Return + Sucker Punch/Crunch. While mostly disorganized, it contains almost all mons in the tier:
----------All Mons in S to B+ it beats that are worth calcing defensively for:
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 4-6 (19 - 28.5%) -- 18.9% chance to 4HKO
(4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 19-23 (90.4 - 109.5%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 17-21 (73.9 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 132 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Croagunk: 5-8 (21.7 - 34.7%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
(5, 5, 5, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 8)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Scraggy: 16-19 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 164 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 9-13 (39.1 - 56.5%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Vullaby: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola U-turn vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 6-9 (24 - 36%) -- 15.4% chance to 3HKO
(6, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 23-31 (92 - 124%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 31)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 204 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-26 (72 - 104%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(18, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 236 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Frillish: 23-31 (92 - 124%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(23, 23, 23, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 26, 31)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 76 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Honedge: 18-26 (81.8 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
(18, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. +1 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 16-19 (76.1 - 90.4%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 21-27 (84 - 108%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 16-19 (72.7 - 86.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 36 HP / 40 Def Eviolite Cottonee: 21-25 (100 - 119%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 17-21 (80.9 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Munchlax: 29-35 (96.6 - 116.6%) -- 75% chance to OHKO
(29, 29, 29, 29, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 31, 32, 32, 32, 32, 32, 35)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 180+ Def Mareanie: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 116 HP / 180+ Def Mareanie: 23-29 (100 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 27, 29)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 4 HP / 92 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Grimer: 21-27 (84 - 108%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 236 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Archen: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 60 HP / 0 Def Amaura: 21-27 (84 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
(21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Sandshrew-Alola: 9-13 (40.9 - 59%) -- 88.7% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Omanyte: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Rufflet: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Doduo: 21-25 (105 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 25)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 18-26 (66.6 - 96.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(18, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 23, 26)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Corphish: 16-19 (80 - 95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 116 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Rufflet: 16-19 (64 - 76%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)

----------Counters it ''loses'' to: Pawniard, Juice-Snubbull and Defensive-Tirtouga
-1 228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 16-19 (69.5 - 82.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
-1 228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola U-turn vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 6-9 (28.5 - 42.8%) -- 99% chance to 3HKO
(6, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 8-9 (38 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pawniard: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 12)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Return vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 16-19 (66.6 - 79.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 17, 19)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 4-6 (16.6 - 25%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
(4, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 6)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 19-23 (79.1 - 95.8%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
(19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 23)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 84 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)
228 Atk Life Orb Hustle Rattata-Alola Crunch vs. 84 HP / 252 Def Eviolite Tirtouga: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)

While I do think with the current set of the metagame being more pressuring towards Dark/Fight I do think it justifies the use on serious teams even over more versatile pokemon like Pawniard.
 
I nominate Sandshrew to B-

With the recent rise of Pumpkaboo, a Rapid Spinner with Knock Off has become more necessary and influencial. Furthermore, although Staryu has risen, its main competition as a Stealth Rock and Rapid Spin user is Drilbur and Kabuto, the former of which lacks Knock Off, and the latter not being able to stop Volt Switch and doesn't use Earthquake. It also has a good chance to KO Bulky Staryu with a Knock Off on a switch into an Earthquake which Kabuto also lacks the ability to do. Staryu in return has a pretty poor chance to KO, unless it is max SpA Hydro Pump:
Bulky Staryu:
156 Atk Sandshrew Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Staryu: 5-7 (23.8 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
156 Atk Sandshrew Earthquake vs. 116 HP / 156 Def Staryu: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

0 SpA Staryu Scald vs. 116 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Sandshrew: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
Offensive Eviolite:
156 Atk Sandshrew Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Staryu: 6-8 (30 - 40%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
156 Atk Sandshrew Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 0 Def Staryu: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

200 SpA Staryu Scald vs. 116 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Sandshrew: 18-24 (78.2 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
Life Orb:
156 Atk Sandshrew Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Staryu: 13-16 (68.4 - 84.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

196 SpA Life Orb Staryu Hydro Pump vs. 116 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Sandshrew: 34-42 (147.8 - 182.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

Not only does Knock Off hit Staryu and Pumpkaboo, but it is also a great option for weakening basically any Pokemon safely, the most notable being Mienfoo and Timburr who like to switch into Sandshrew more often than they should. As mentioned above, a stop to Volt Switch is very useful for stopping annoying Pokemon who like to spam it. Its high Defense is very useful as it is the more common attacking stat in the tier. Compared to the other Pokemon in B-, Sandshrew seems to fit. Most of the Pokemon in that tier are either good by themselves but hard to place on a team, or just mediocre in general, but still usable. I think Sandshrew falls into the second catergory with Pokemon such as Larvesta, Dewpider, and Honedge. If you want a team that it works over Drilbur on my RMT works quite well, as the Knock Off support for Pumpkaboo can win a game vs. Timburr or Mienfoo. Although it can be useful though, Sandshrew's inability to deal with Vullaby and poor Speed can make it situational, yet still pretty good. That is why I think it should be B-.
 

jake

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... agree with A-Grimer up because B/B+ was a cautious initial ranking and it's since more than proven how potent its combination of bulk, power, and utility is...
i wanted to back the grimer-a nom further, so:

+ contender for best knock off user in tier. between knock off and gunk shot, the number of mons that can consistently switch in safely is very low. once grimer-a is in on anything it threatens, it pushes your advantage easily. there are faster, stronger options, but grimer-a is reliable and almost always useful in any given game.
+ primary pursuit trapper. other options exist, like pawniard and stunky, and you can tech pursuit on pokemon like doduo, but grimer-a is THE primary choice for pursuit trapping because it so effortlessly beats both gastly and abra.
+ poison touch is stupid. it makes every move a poison-scald, and the chip damage helps in like 98.5% of situations. it lets baby touncher stack more damage onto its answers and eventually overwhelm them, something you can keep in mind when building with it. plus you can always run poison jab and have like a 51% chance to poison everything which is goddang silly.
+ it's unbelievably consistent. an evio set isn't OHKOed by anything short of a STAB LO earthquake, and even then it's got a good chance to live (it tanks LO diglett EQ on 15/16 rolls with just a standard spread at full). between sheer bulk and knock off, it does something productive in just about every game.
~ 4MSS exists, but is negligible. shadow sneak and fire blast both have usefulness, but neither is so good that missing it makes grimer-a worse. fire blast lures pawn for teammates, sneak gives you more priority and lets you swing another poison-scald.
- trappable. diglett can kill with just about any prior damage, and grimer-a is usually a focal point of a team so missing it hurts a lot.
- shadow sneak is weak. it also doesn't help that some really strong pokemon are immune to it (doduo, aipom, rufflet), so grimer relies a lot on team composition to deal with them.

plus you can do stupid shit like a fast grimer-a with knock + gunk to lure and crush slow timburrs. it's just a really good and fun pokemon and should sit higher than it is now IMO
 

Fiend

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Okay so here are the moves in the VR:

Staryu up to S
Foongus up to A+
Chinchou to mid A
Spritzee up to A-
Alolan Grimer up to A-
Scraggy down to B+
Aipom up to B+
Alolan Vulpix up to mid B
Munchlax down to mid B
Pumpkaboo-small up to C+
Honedge down to C+
Morellul down to mid C
Bronzor down to C-
Geodude down to C-
Purrloin down to C-
Meowth-Alola down to D rank
Wimpod down to D rank
Yungoos down to D rank

These have been unranked:
Binacle
Cacnea
Froakie
Glameow
Grimer
Helioptile
Litleo
Shroomish
Skiddo
Smoochum
Solosis
Voltorb
Wailmer


There is quite a list of noms that I don't feel comfortable pushing through just yet. I will sooner or later get my own thoughts out on them, but for now here is the list:
Abra up to A+
Tirtouga up to A- [or A]
Snubbull up to mid A
Carvanha down to A-
Drilbur up to A-
Cottonee down to B+
Alolan Sandshrew up to B+ [or A-]
Rufflet down to mid B [or B+]
Wynaut up to mid B
Pumpkaboo-Small up to somewhere in B
Bulbasaur up to the same rank as Pumpkaboo-Small?
Trubbish up to B-
Kabuto up to B-
Sandshrew up to B-
Pikipek down to mid C
Numel down to mid C
 
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freezai

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going to comment on the things i have experience with:

Alolan Sandshrew up to B+ [or A-] (DISAGREE) Alolan Sandshrew isn't very good because of the metagame trends and its weakenesses to common types. 3 out of 4 S rank pokemon beat it 1v1 and a lot of pokemon in the A ranks dont particularly struggle with Alolan Sandshrew. Even though it quad resists flying, it can't actually check any flying type, most notably NP Vullaby, because of their common coverage moves. Furthermore, because of the prevalence of Pawniard, most attackers typically carry fighting coverage which further increases Ashrew's lack of reliable switch in opportunities. I also think Sandshrew-A is not very good as a hail sweeper because it necessitates the usage of a hail setter which is horrible for defensive synergy. (I've tried own setting Ashrew but I've found it mediocre, someone else try it and tell me if I'm wrong.) It's a slightly above average hail sweeper, but not something worth whacking up a team's defensive synergy. The only reason I would ever use it is If i wanted a spinner who could beat spinblockers like Pumpkaboo I guess. It's role compression isn't really much when it can't actually accomplish the roles because it can't switch into what it resistances would imply and it gets scared out by anything with the ever common fighting coverage.

Rufflet down to mid B [or B+] (DISAGREE) We are seriously underestimating the power of Rufflet if that's even possible. It's the strongest flying type in the tier with great coverage to beat flying resists. The only true counter is Honedge which isn't even relevant. Obviously the inherent risk of inaccurate moves is annoying but the high reward is enough to justify using Rufflet. To put it in perspective, Scarf Rufflet is still stronger than LO Dodou. It's sheer power is enough to keep it in the A- rank.

Wynaut up to mid B (AGREE) I've been playing around with Wynaut and I think its very cool. I've been running a faster Wynaut with Safeguard which lets me beat Foongus and other bulky walls through safe guarding on spore,encoring till the pp runs out and then magic coating. This strat works for most bulky things to pp stall it and then magic coat/counter for the kill. Trapkilling Foongus and Marinara is very useful, especially in a fighting dominated meta. It also pulls its weight trapkilling things like Staryu.

Sandshrew to B- (AGREE) At first I thought this was a jack of all trades master of none type pokemon, but it actually pleasantly suprised me in practice. Won't elaborate too much because its niche is everything How3an has already pointed out.
 
Pawniard to A-


Yea yea, call me crazy. But look at this Pawniard. This is his transition from ORAS to SM. Pawn was an amazing mon in ORAS. Countering most fletch and goth sets (Assuming no overheat/hp fight), stopping cottonee and shellder, etc. This metagame however in my opinion it is just outclassed. I find myself wanting to just run Alolan-Grimer+Onix rather than pawn because they just do both of Pawn's jobs better than Pawn does. Scarf is ok but overall pawn is being used more defensively this metagame rather than offensively due to the fighting types and Dark types and Bulky waters everywhere. Two of the 4 S mons completely counter it (unless reckless foo) and NP vulla just plots on it. Even staryu wins 1v1 once it scald burns. Common pokemon absolutely destroy this thing. I even see myself not using hp fighting on abra every once in awhile because like I have a Vulla+Foo so I'll be fine and run encore or t-wave instead. Overall Pawniard is still good yes, but it is not near A+ rank and has severely fallen since the ORAS metagame.
 

Berks

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Pawniard to A-


Yea yea, call me crazy. But look at this Pawniard. This is his transition from ORAS to SM. Pawn was an amazing mon in ORAS. Countering most fletch and goth sets (Assuming no overheat/hp fight), stopping cottonee and shellder, etc. This metagame however in my opinion it is just outclassed. I find myself wanting to just run Alolan-Grimer+Onix rather than pawn because they just do both of Pawn's jobs better than Pawn does. Scarf is ok but overall pawn is being used more defensively this metagame rather than offensively due to the fighting types and Dark types and Bulky waters everywhere. Two of the 4 S mons completely counter it (unless reckless foo) and NP vulla just plots on it. Even staryu wins 1v1 once it scald burns. Common pokemon absolutely destroy this thing. I even see myself not using hp fighting on abra every once in awhile because like I have a Vulla+Foo so I'll be fine and run encore or t-wave instead. Overall Pawniard is still good yes, but it is not near A+ rank and has severely fallen since the ORAS metagame.
no.

happy 1k!
 
Pawniard to A-


Yea yea, call me crazy. But look at this Pawniard. This is his transition from ORAS to SM. Pawn was an amazing mon in ORAS. Countering most fletch and goth sets (Assuming no overheat/hp fight), stopping cottonee and shellder, etc. This metagame however in my opinion it is just outclassed. I find myself wanting to just run Alolan-Grimer+Onix rather than pawn because they just do both of Pawn's jobs better than Pawn does. Scarf is ok but overall pawn is being used more defensively this metagame rather than offensively due to the fighting types and Dark types and Bulky waters everywhere. Two of the 4 S mons completely counter it (unless reckless foo) and NP vulla just plots on it. Even staryu wins 1v1 once it scald burns. Common pokemon absolutely destroy this thing. I even see myself not using hp fighting on abra every once in awhile because like I have a Vulla+Foo so I'll be fine and run encore or t-wave instead. Overall Pawniard is still good yes, but it is not near A+ rank and has severely fallen since the ORAS metagame.
Berks' post was a little too short, so I decided to take initiative to explain why it is that Pawn should stay where it is currently at as imo Pawn enables more team compositions than almost every other Pokemon in the format.

Having a steel-type on an offense team is awesome, steel's multiple resistances means you are capable of not only switching in with a HO/Offense team but also check Pokemon that would typically be offense killers. To understand this concept better, let's think of a hypothetical scenario.

There was a young boy named Billy and he wanted to build an offense team. Upon looking at the current VR, he decided that two staples that he would put on his team were Vullaby and Mienfoo. Then this young boy had many issues with this team. He asked himself 'how the fuck am I supposed to check Shellder?', 'How can I deal with Fairies without sacking ALL MOMENTUM'. Not only that, but there were many random sweepers such as DD Axew in the 1200 that were pummeling him (how will he learn?).

This is where Pawniard comes in, this mon can help offense teams (Which btw is like the only kind of team that exists now lol) deal with bulkier cores through its typing and a powerful Knock Off, while also being a giant pain in the ass for every HO team that tries to roll you over with priority in Sucker Punch. It is also worth noting that the amount of mons it would check for offensive teams would double if not everything in the fucking galaxy ran HP Fight(but alas, they do). Grimer+Onix is a p nice core in dealing with these things, but those are two mons vs. 1, and a single Pawniard still has some advantages over it, like stronger priority allowing it to beat Shell Smashers. The ability to have a reliable strong priority user is something that is greatly appreciated in all offense teams, and its ability to soft-check a shitton of stuff given things like SR enables you to put a lot more cool cores and strats with your remaining 5 team slots.

This doesn't even go into Pawniard's contributions to the team on its own. Not only does it increase the synergy in many offensive teams, it is also helpful at all stages of the game. It helps win early-games with Knock Off, and can serve as a win condition towards the end of the game depending on how you want to play it. This gives Pawniard a rather dynamic presence, and is still rather dangerous even though it might not be as strong as it was in ORAS. It also has the mindgame threat between two of its sets, Scarf and Evio.( I think there was a SPL game that went like that).

I would talk about more regarding the viability rankings but sadly I'm a fuckin noob.

Have fun LC players!
 

Corporal Levi

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Then Billy sent in a Pawniard that was hit by Knock Off or maybe just had decent chip in on Shellder, where it was promptly KOed by Razor Shell or Hydro Pump. He sent it in on another Shellder for it to be KOed by HP Fighting. He then sent it in on Cottonee where it came close to being OHKOed by HP Fighting; then Snubbull, where it was 2HKOed by Snubbull's coverage moves; then Spritzee, where it was 3HKOed by Moonblast and failed to OHKO in return. And he still didn't have a proper bird check.
So Billy switched his Pawniard for a SturdyJuice Magnemite.

You explained well why Pawniard is a great mon offensively - it offers strong priority in a metagame that greatly appreciates it, and you can't really go wrong with such a powerful Knock Off. It's got other positive traits too, but those are the big things that really grant it a niche. On the other hand, Pawniard will frequently be relying on its average bulk to get into play, because most Pokemon have access to a generally useful coverage move that happens to hit Pawniard super effectively. It's a shaky check to everything it tries to check, be it Shellder that no longer has to run Ice Shard or fairies that hit it neutrally with STAB moves. Though its typing grants it the resistances to allow for a few more opportunities to come in, it's arguably unfavourable to Pawniard overall because the double weakness to the best type in LC makes it so easy to check or lure. Pawniard's niche consists almost entirely of its offensive strengths.

A- doesn't do Pawniard's consistency justice, but A+ seems a bit high for Pawniard's risk-reward. In terms of viability I think it'd fit well with the offensive threats in mid A; I see it as a slightly more splashable Dark-type counterpart to A- Corphish. Obviously it's not really comparable to anything in mid A as far as its niche goes, but in terms of how easy it is to include on a team and how much work it puts into the average match, I don't consider it better or worse than Gastly or Snivy.
 

Altariel von Sweep

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Wynaut up to B rank.

As everyone can see, Wynaut is the only Pokémon with Shadow Tag after Gothita was gone. Wynaut is a very nice Pokémon that gives support by encoring opponents in the wrong move, to switch out to a setup sweeper and smash, or removing Foongus and Mareanie by itself, if needed. Its bulk is very passable, along with its monstrous HP, it can take most of the hits, and it isn't KO from AGrimer Knock Off if it consumed the Berry Juice, knocking it out in return. However, it needs a lot of team support to function well, as it cannot trap Ghost-types, that can KO it.

Edit: It's also very susceptible to Knock Off, as it can lose its only way to get recovery.
 

Camden

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I think it's absolutely criminal that Vulpix is B+ right now. Sun is currently one of the most dominant playstyles in the metagame and Vulpix is the centrepiece that brings it all together. It's not the only Sun setter (random Z-Sunny Day mons are cool) but it's certainly the best of them and should be recognised as such, especially since it's the only Sun auto-setter of the bunch. It should be A- at the very least.
 


Forgive me if i sound retarded and im ready to be put into my place since I haven't looked too much into today's meta but Tirt seems really out of place in B+. Yes i know sun and fighting types are more common than ever but bulky Tirt is still one of the most reliable sr setters around with solid rock and evio. It outrights beats Onix and most other SR setters and most of its checks still risk getting burned with Scald or taking a fine chunk with Stone Edge. It doesnt fear Mienfoo that hard but of course Timburr is a hard stop to any set it can run and Scraggy sets up on it if it has Shed Skin. Still its pretty damn hard to whittle down especially if you pair it with Spritzee's wish support since those two have some nice synergy. Aqua Jet allows it to act as a mini revenge killer or to get chip damage if things go awry. Knock Off is never fun to switch into. And of course Shell Smash is a thing. While I don't think that's its best role it does give Tirt some flexibility and you don't know immediatly what it's running from the start. I'd personally like to see Tirtouga move to A-.



Totally agree with everything that Quote said. It allows lots of threats to literally shine where they otherwise wouldn't. Support it's rise to atleast A-.
 
So I'm new to LC but I'm confident enough to start posting here. Now this nom is probably really trivial but Cherubi at least deserves a rank, probably D, C- or C at the highest. While I'm not going to argue that Cherubi is amazing by any stretch of the imagination, it has a niche on Triple Chlorophyll teams as a third sun sweeper. While it lacks Secondary STAB, it has a few options that give it a niche on certain sun builds that warrant a higher ranking than E. The main reason you'd want Cherubi on your sun team is the combination of Weather Ball and Healing Wish. Weather ball is a fantastic move. In the sun, it turns into a base 100 power move that doubles in Sun, coming close to Solar Beam in raw damage output. Weather ball is huge on sun teams and part of the reason that Bellsprout is so good on them, and having a second weather ball option is nice. Secondly, and perhaps even bigger, is access to a fast Healing Wish under sun. Healing Wish is one of the most underrated moves in the game, as it allows you to reset all the damage on one of your Pokémon. Cherubi offers an extremely versatile layer to sun teams with just this one move, as it allows you to reset sun again when you wouldn't otherwise be able to by healing Vulpix, bring your bellsprout from the brink for another round of sweeping, or give a less damaged Pokémon a free switch-in and heal at the same time.

The combination of Weather Ball and Healing Wish gives Cherubi a notable niche on one of the better playstyles in the tier right now, and as such that warrants a better rank than E.

Thanks for reading.
 
I don't think Cherubi would be a good choice even if you wanted to play 3 Chlorophyl sweepers since there already are Bellsprout, Deering and Bulbasaur -which is still better than Cherubi-. Maybe Cherubi has a really little niche thanks to the combination you mentioned but that's all. So I think it could be D but certainly not higher.



I would also like to say that in my opinion, Croagunk should be A-
That mon really is something since the fighting types are so important in the meta. Croagunk is able to take advantage of this importance thanks to his Fighting-type and counter the others thanks to his Poison-type. Moreover, it is even able to pass through the fairy types which are currently the most common counters to the fighting types.
It can also beat some other mons, such as Staryu (without Psychic), and is also very versatile as it can be special, mixed, have NP as a set-up move, etc.
I know that sun teams really are dominant in the meta right know -which is the reason why Croagunk couldn't be A or even A+ - but still, the fact that it can counter both fighting- and fairy-types should be enough for him to be A-.
 
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Bellsprout and Bulbasaur are mandatory on triple chlorophyll, and Deerling isn't a good choice for a Chlorophyll sweeper due to having an extremely weak Solar Beam, no sleep powder, no weather ball or fire coverage to speak of (Don't run HP Fire with 40 Spa), and it can't boost itself outside of Work Up, which is half as effective as Growth. Deerling's Attack isn't anything special, either, and its special attack is almost unusable. Jump Kick and a better speed tier aren't worth these drawbacks.

Cherubi, on the other hand, has Solar Beam, Weather Ball, and Growth, letting it be a solid sun sweeper that is capable of pounding down teams without a Grass Resist, like the other two. Also, with the EV spread of 180+ SpA/92 SpD/236 Spe (Probably not optimal, but hey.) it matches Bulbasaur point for point in bulk while having the speed and power of Bellsprout, letting Cherubi function like a mix between the two best sun sweepers with healing wish attached.

Cherubi > Deerling on sun, don't use Deerling on sun it's bad

Cherubi @ Eviolite
Ability: Chlorophyll
Level: 5
Shiny: Yes
EVs: 180 SpA / 92 SpD / 236 Spe
Modest Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Solar Beam
- Weather Ball
- Healing Wish
- Growth
 
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If you use Deerling on sun, you obviously don't play it Special. It can be played with Chlorophyll and wouldn't actually be worse than Cherubi imo. The fact Deerling has a second Stab allows him to hit a lot even Grass-resists such as Vullaby, Ponyta, or the other Vulpix and Jump kick allows him to pass through ferroseed and things like that (or at least weaken it enough). But it's true that this isn't a really fitted mon for that job... But Cherubi isn't that better at this job in my opinion. Cherubi just can't pass through a fire type for instance, which Deerling can do with ease.

Anyway, in my opinion three sun sweepers is far too much. I mean, with Vulpix it only lets you two remaining slots. But yeah, Cherubi probably deserves a D rank -imo it is still better than some of the mons that are there-. But as I said before, I would certainly not say it's worth more.

(Btw, Deerling is B-. I know it is mostly used with the Sap sipper ability, but I think it still means it isn't that bad, cause your last sentence seemed to mean that it was always bad, no matter the role ;)
 
If you use Deerling on sun, you obviously don't play it Special. It can be played with Chlorophyll and wouldn't actually be worse than Cherubi imo. The fact Deerling has a second Stab allows him to hit a lot even Grass-resists such as Vullaby, Ponyta, or the other Vulpix and Jump kick allows him to pass through ferroseed and things like that (or at least weaken it enough). But it's true that this isn't a really fitted mon for that job... But Cherubi isn't that better at this job in my opinion. Cherubi just can't pass through a fire type for instance, which Deerling can do with ease.

Anyway, in my opinion three sun sweepers is far too much. I mean, with Vulpix it only lets you two remaining slots. But yeah, Cherubi probably deserves a D rank. But as I said before, I would certainly not say it's worth more.

(Btw, Deerling is B-. I know it is mostly used with the ability Sap sipper, but I think it still means it isn't that bad, cause your last sentence seemed to mean that it was always bad, no matter the role ;)
+2 180+ SpA Life Orb Cherubi Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby in Sun: 22-27 (88 - 108%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
+2 196+ Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 21-27 (84 - 108%) -- 50% chance to OHKO
196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
180+ SpA Life Orb Cherubi Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby in Sun: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Cherubi also gets Gleam to take Vullaby out on its own, but you have to forgo Growth or Healing Wish to do so.

+2 Cherubi outdamages +2 Deerling and also only needs one turn of setup to Deerling's two. Additionally, Ferroseed isn't a problem for cherubi but Deerling fails to KO:

180+ SpA Life Orb Cherubi Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed in Sun: 36-47 (163.6 - 213.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Deerling Jump Kick vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 13-16 (59 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Jump Kick also forces Deerling to take Iron Barbs damage. I'll concede Deerling is better vs Fire types without setup, but neither Deerling nor Cherubi are switching in on fire types, and your fire type killer is better left to Kabuto or Diglett.

Additionally, if you can get a growth up Cherubi isn't even that bad against weakened fires, though it does need that turn of setup:

+2 180+ SpA Life Orb Cherubi Solar Beam vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Vulpix: 19-23 (90.4 - 109.5%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO

Deerling isn't bad on sun, but it's too different from an actual sun sweeper for its own good and even gets checked by things that other sun sweepers beat, so that role is better left to Cherubi.

(also I didn't mean to imply Deerling was a bad mon just that it was bad on Sun)

I'll stop spamming the thread for now. I agree that D is probably the most suitable Rank for Cherubi, this post is just to point out that it's better than Deerling in the role Cherubi wants to play.
 
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sam-testings

What a beautiful face, I have found in this place
I would like to point out that Deerling gets Wild Charge for Vullaby, which negates a good portion of what you stated, and most Ferroseed are Berry Juice these days which Deerling has a chance to KO after a little bit of chip damage. Not disagreeing with your nomination, even though I think that Cherubi is heavily outclassed and you should never have more than two Chlorophyll users on one team as at that point ur just stacking weaknesses way too much.

Carvahna down to A-

This nomination is solely because Timburr is super prominent right now and it checks Carvahna super well, preventing it from being super good.

Grimer Alolan up to A
This thing is insanely good as most of us know by now, and is incredibly hard and annoying to switch into. It checks Fairies super well and can hard check Abra and Gastly. Thing is also decently bulky, allowing it to take a lot of hits. Its also pretty much a Sun check as it takes like 30% from weather ball. Things super good, we all know it, deserves to rise yadda yadda.

Aipom to A-
Mudbray isnt as amazing as we all thought it to be when SUMO first started, and isn't everywhere as some predicted. Aipom is still amazing and deserves to rise as Fury Swipes is still obscenely powerful, and Aipom can carry Seed Bomb which does a nice amount to Mudbray. Teams that are unprepared can just get straight swept, and Fake Out is always nice to have if your opponent has a NP Vullaby or something.
 
I would like to point out that Deerling gets Wild Charge for Vullaby, which negates a good portion of what you stated, and most Ferroseed are Berry Juice these days which Deerling has a chance to KO after a little bit of chip damage. Not disagreeing with your nomination, even though I think that Cherubi is heavily outclassed and you should never have more than two Chlorophyll users on one team as at that point ur just stacking weaknesses way too much.
196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Wild Charge vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 13-18 (52 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
180+ SpA Life Orb Cherubi Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby in Sun: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Even with Wild Charge Cherubi is still on par against Vullaby in the sun without needing to take recoil damage. Cherubi is pretty much better than Deerling in nearly any scenario except for really niche cases where the extra speed might matter or vs Munchlax. Even with berry juice Ferroseed Deerling needs a high roll with Jump Kick twice:

196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Jump Kick vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Ferroseed: 16-21 (72.7 - 95.4%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

So Ferroseed lives at anywhere between 6 and 1 HP, and proceeds to heal back up into the range where Deerling needs a maximum roll to 2HKO unless you have prior damage (Which isn't uncommon), while eating Iron Barbs damage at least once and a maximum of 3 times. Cherubi just kills outright.

Triple Chlorophyll isn't exactly consistent but it does exist and is enough of a team style to warrant Cherubi's ranking.

I'll stop spamming this thread now.
 

While I agree Cherubi is not one of the mons i would think first of on a sun team due to Bellsprout and Bulbasaur being mostly superior versions of it, Healing Wish can be quite the game changer and being a better third chlorophyll abuser than the other pitiful mons in LC is enough to warrant it D-rank. It can actually pull it's weight in a serious battle and looking at the rest of D-rank I don't think it would be much of a crime to smush it in there.


I think I am actually in love with this wad of gunk. It's bulk suprises me every time and it's just incredibly consistent at what it does. It's simply one of the best glue mons in the tier atm and i fully agree with moving it up to A-rank.

PS: Guys use Fire Blast more on Grimer-A it's so good o_o


Can't say a whole lot about Carvanha since i haven't used it myself yet but it's been posing far less of a problem than in ORAS from what I've seen.
 

Gummy

...three, smiles go for miles!
I agree with Carvanha down to A-. I've used it quite a lot and the metagame is just way too unkind to it for it to be considered on par with Abra and Chinchou. With Timburr in S rank and all, it's an extremely common and a great mon. Carvanha is OHKOed by its Mach Punch after Stealth Rock damage; if Stealth Rock isn't up, Timburr can take any of Carvanha's moves (even a Psychic Fangs) and recover most of its HP back with Drain Punch. With Fighters and A-Veil teams running rampant, Carv is forced to run Psychic Fangs over Aqua Jet or Destiny Bond, rendering it weak to all forms of priority. Meowth completely beats Carvanha, since Feint goes through Protect and 2HKOes. It can't really fill a utility role and you have to build around it instead of with it. It can't even revenge kill properly until it gets a boost, and the Protect is so predictable you may as well be giving your opponent a free switch.

However, Carvanha is still a really strong offensive threat. With a great Attack stat coupled with Life Orb and Speed Boost, it can tear holes into an unprepared team. Coupled with a Swords Dance boost from Mienfoo, very few mons can stand up to it. Only Croagunk really hard walls Carv at +2, but now that Psychic Fangs is becoming more popular, it can't switch in. It's a great wallbreaker that can soften the opponent's team for another sweeper, and it also works as a late-game cleaner. Carv did me well in ORAS, and I still think it's a great mon, but its been hurt pretty badly by the metagame changes.
 

ShuckleDeath

They call me the kign of typos
is a Team Rater Alumnusis a Forum Moderator Alumnus


Sam already touched on this, but I just want to weigh in my thoughts on it. I think Grimer-Alola defiantly deserves to be raised up to A Rank it is a huge threat both defensively and offensively. Hard checking a lot of threats being used right now namely Abra and Gastly. On top of that it also blanket checks a ton of special attackers for example if it 1v1 against Life Orb Staryu and is above 70% health it actually wins that match up as Gunk + Shadow Sneak will get the kill, and this isn't taking into account its high chance of poison. It is hard to switch into as well having a very powerful Knock Off(the 30% chance to poison makes this even better) and nice neutral coverage when paired with Gunk Shot or poison Jab. Without a doubt is the best Pursuit trapper the tier has to offer taking little damage from coverage moves of Psychic and Ghost-Types outside of Hidden power Ground thanks to it's poison typing. All this makes it a valuable and splashable member to offensive teams, when paired with set-up Pokemon like Scraggy and Tirtouga due to the ease of which it breaks Abras focus Sash, just a great Pokemon that I feel deserves a rise.
 
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