Resource LC SuMo Viability Rankings (updated @ post #204)

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Gummy

send typecharts
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Sam already touched on this, but I just want to weigh in my thoughts on it. I think Grimer-Alola defiantly deserves to be raised up to A Rank it is a huge threat both defensively and offensively. Hard checking a lot of threats being used right now namely Abra and Gastly. On top of that it also blanket checks a ton of special attackers for example if it 1v1 against Life Orb Staryu and is above 70% health it actually wins that match up as Gunk + Shadow Sneak will get the kill, and this isn't taking into account its high chance of poison. It is hard to switch into as well having a very powerful Knock Off(the 30% chance to poison makes this even better) and nice neutral coverage when paired with Gunk Shot or poison Jab. Without a doubt is the best Pursuit trapper the tier has to offer taking little damage from coverage moves of Psychic and Ghost-Types outside of Hidden power Ground thanks to it's poison typing. All this makes it a valuable and splashable member to offensive teams, when paired with set-up Pokemon like Scraggy and Tirtouga due to the ease of which it breaks Abras focus Sash, just a great Pokemon that I feel deserves a rise.
I agree with this, and I'd also like to add that Grimer-A is one of the very few decent sun checks around. It beats Vulpix 1v1 (it can switch in directly if its a Berry Juice variant), and it can beat Bellsprout if its carrying Fire Blast. Since sun is such a ridiculously common playstyle nowadays, having a check is almost mandatory. It can also support another sweeper with Memento, and thanks to its good bulk and defensive typing, it can usually get in a Memento before dying. You mentioned it's splashable, but it's not just "oh I want a Fighting check I'll just toss on Snubbull" splashable, it's "my team doesn't have Staryu or Mienfoo yet so lets just smack one on" splashable. It is priority, Knock Off support, potential Memento support, a potential Ferro/Bellsprout/Pumpkaboo/anything weak to Fire Blast check, a hard hitter with Gunk Shot, and near-free chip damage in Poison Touch. Cool mon that deserves a cool rank.
 
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Does Wimpod even deserve to be ranked at all? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't why ANYONE would ever use it. Its bulk is pathetic, its attack is pathetic, and its movepool is very limited. Bug/Water, while not a bad typing, is also not particularly good. The only thing it has going for it is that it's pretty fast, but even then there are still faster and better things available to you. I guess Wimp Out could be useful in some situations, but it seems like it would be hurtful most of the time. I don't see of this deserves D rank, let alone C like it was before.
 
Does Wimpod even deserve to be ranked at all? Maybe I'm missing something, but I don't why ANYONE would ever use it. Its bulk is pathetic, its attack is pathetic, and its movepool is very limited. Bug/Water, while not a bad typing, is also not particularly good. The only thing it has going for it is that it's pretty fast, but even then there are still faster and better things available to you. I guess Wimp Out could be useful in some situations, but it seems like it would be hurtful most of the time. I don't see of this deserves D rank, let alone C like it was before.
I see Wimpod as a viable Spikes setter with the ability to threaten Rapid Spin users such as Phanpy. It sits in a great Speed tier of 18 when invested and its ability Wimp Out is just like a free switch in. Its especially dangerous when paired with a setup check.

So, it's not great on its own, but as long as you have the right team support it can help you win the match.

Wimpod @ Focus Sash
Ability: Wimp Out
Level: 5
EVs: 236 HP / 76 SpA / 40 SpD / 196 Spe
Timid Nature
- Spikes
- Taunt
- Scald
- Struggle Bug

These attacking moves aren't powerful, but the secondary effects can come in handy whether it's against a physical or special attacker.
 
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Nineage

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Hey, I'd like to leave my thoughts on a few things in this thread recently. I've never been amazing at explaining out my reasoning, so if I said something dumb, please call me on it. Most of this hasn't been discussed a ton, but hopefully this helps summarize it!

Cherubi: First of all, the entire debate over what the best third Chlorophyll sweeper is is completely irrelevant. Triple Chlorophyll can only generously even be considered a gimmick in this metagame, with the only advantage it has being allowing the user to play a lot worse against teams that are already criminally weak to sun. Vulpix does not have the longevity to reliably pivot in and out enough times against a competent player to allow for three different Chlorophyll sweepers to be effective in a match, and running Deerling or Cherubi or similar garbage causes sun teams to miss out on utility from a Pokemon that actually can check threats. I get how triple Chlorophyll can seem appealing, or even how it can be effective against sun-weak ladder teams, but it is so ridiculously suboptimal in higher level play that no Pokemon should be ranked based on how it performs in such an archetype. Unless someone can justify that Cherubi has a niche outside of a strategy that flat doesn't work (hint: they can't), it should absolutely stay unranked.

Vulpix: This one is one that I see as coming down to how people want to think about viability, and I'm personally kind of conflicted on it. Obviously, Vulpix has an uncontested niche on a prevalent and effective archetype. However, the archetype would not be as prevalent or effective were it not for Bellsprout, and Bellsprout really becomes the Pokemon to prepare for rather than Vulpix on sun teams. However, Bellsprout is obviously pretty useless without Vulpix. I don't think either Pokemon is worthy of A- without the support of the other (Vulpix does have some viability as a wallbreaker on its own, but its not A- rank, while Bellsprout is just utter ass), so I think the most sensible thing is to move them both up to A-. I'd love to hear some more argument on this, though!

Tirtouga: This was nominated to A-, but I think its fine where it is. The issue with Tirtouga is that the most teams don't appreciate the momentum loss from the defensive set, and the Shell Smash set just gets outsped even after smashing, or beaten by a Fighting type with priority. Also, grass types, especially Foongus, and Timburr are really common right now and seriously hurt the effectiveness of the defensive set since they basically get a free switch in. I do agree with pretty much everything that was said: it is a decent support Pokemon and a decent Shell Smasher, but I think its checks are common enough and good enough that it can't be reliably that effective.

Alolan Grimer: This Pokemon just literally soft checks the entire metagame. Like 90% of Pokemon lose to it 1v1, and it doesn't give a lot of stuff a free switch except like Mudbray, which the meta isn't particularly kind to at the moment (with stuff like Staryu that checks it being great and easy to fit onto a team), and Onix, which doesn't like eating a Knock Off and is pretty easy to run checks to anyway. In short, I support the rise to A.

Carvanha: I'm not convinced on moving this down to A-. I get that Timburr is common and beats it, but other than that, Vanha is really potent offensively at the moment. Psychic Fangs, despite being the worst move name ever, has made Carvanha really really hard to switch into, and most of the stuff that can switch into it is pretty easy to bring in, Knock Off, and wear down. DarkSpam and WaterSpam are also both effective team strategies at the moment, and Carvanha works well as a cleaner on both of them. Yeah, Timburr is annoying, but its not on every team, its not unbeatable, and its existence doesn't make Carvanha any easier to switch into.

Wimpod: Why is this the ugliest Pokemon ever lmao.

And now, a nomination of my own!
B+ --> A

Adri989898 mentioned moving this up to A- above, and it kind of got lost. I agree with most of what was said, but I'd like to take it a step farther. Croagunk is absolutely ridiculous in this meta, able to check enormous amounts of the metagame. The role compression it has is nuts, letting it beat many common types of typespam (birdspam has been on the decline recently), it has access to Knock Off, various types of priority, and its moveset is customizable depending on what its team needs it to switch into most. I could go more into this but I just wrote a semi-long post so unless this gets contested, I'll leave it as is.
 

Elec.

mind the gap
is a Pre-Contributor
B+ --> A

Croagunk is absolutely ridiculous in this meta, able to check enormous amounts of the metagame. The role compression it has is nuts, letting it beat many common types of typespam (birdspam has been on the decline recently), it has access to Knock Off, various types of priority, and its moveset is customizable depending on what its team needs it to switch into most. I could go more into this but I just wrote a semi-long post so unless this gets contested, I'll leave it as is.
I agree with basically everything you said. Croagunk's typing already provide it so many different roles as is, with beating out Fairies, resisting the ever so prevalent Fighting types, countering Dark types, & an immunity to Water with Dry Skin. Access to Knock Off & Drain Punch is always a plus and its got such a good movepool with gems like Vacuum Wave, Sucker Punch, Nasty Plot, and Gunk Shot which make full use of its mixed offensive stats. These mixed offensive stats also make it hard to predict what set it is. It could be the standard mixed Gunk with Sludge/Knock/Drain/Vacuum, the Nasty Plot set or just a physical set that can utilize Bulk Up. Croagunk's great typing and ability, expansive movepool, and unpredictability deserve it to be at least A- rank.
 
Vulpix: This one is one that I see as coming down to how people want to think about viability, and I'm personally kind of conflicted on it. Obviously, Vulpix has an uncontested niche on a prevalent and effective archetype. However, the archetype would not be as prevalent or effective were it not for Bellsprout, and Bellsprout really becomes the Pokemon to prepare for rather than Vulpix on sun teams. However, Bellsprout is obviously pretty useless without Vulpix. I don't think either Pokemon is worthy of A- without the support of the other (Vulpix does have some viability as a wallbreaker on its own, but its not A- rank, while Bellsprout is just utter ass), so I think the most sensible thing is to move them both up to A-. I'd love to hear some more argument on this, though!
One very important use that Vulpix has that isn't tied to Bellsprout or Bluba is basically the only pokemon that can stop Aurora Veil Set Up from A-Vulpix. Nearly all of them carry Moonblast or HP Fighting for coverage, meaning Vulpix can easily switch in and prevent A-Vulpix from doing anything. Freeze Dry hits all the defoggers for good damage, and unless you want to run brick break honedge or something (plus there are always ghost types) there really isn't much you can do to stop it from setting up on a slower/more balanced team.

Yes, AV is juts one kind of team, but I think its popularity will explode once people try it because it is insanely good.
 
Darumaka @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Super Power

i think that Darumaka is a B+ rank pokemon.
It can OHKO most things in LC including Timburr.
Great movepool Great stats Great ability(you are taking a risk with hustle because if you miss you're dead)
 
Litleo: Unranked up to C+

Litleo is not even on the Viability rankings and this thing is now a monster thanks to Moxie and it being able to use a Z-move. In the past, Litleo struggled to set up and it required a lot of support to dent the opposing team and it did not have the bulk to switch into moves. Fighting types were everywhere (they still are) but now it stands a chance at sweeping opposing teams thanks to Z-moves. It has an excellent speed tier and could outrun adamant choice scarf Mienfoo and Jolly Rufflet at +1 from a flame charge. Here are some calcs that show how powerful this thing now is. After a little bit of prior damage, most of the tankiest things in LC could be KO'd by Litleo's Inferno Overdrive and that's mighty impressive imo.
.
.
.
196 Atk Litleo Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 19-24 (90.4 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 Atk Litleo Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 196 Atk Litleo Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 196 Atk Litleo Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 21-25 (87.5 - 104.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


It's also worth noting that Timburr's Mach Punch does not K.O Litleo from full.
116 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 20 HP / 52 Def Litleo: 12-14 (52.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Here is the set that I use on my Litleo:
Litleo @ Firium Z
Ability: Moxie
Level: 5
EVs: 20 HP / 196 Atk / 52 Def / 4 SpD / 180 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Return
- Flame Charge
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge

Normal and Fire STAB work well with each other and Wild Charge is there to dent water types like Omanyte, Tirtouga, Shellder, and Staryu. Flame charge should be used while scaring out a Pokemon or once you know that they are willing to sacrifice their Pokemon. Be weary that most ground types could beat Litleo 1 on 1 so it's best to have a water or grass type on your team to get rid of them.

Here are some replays that show how destructive Litleo can be:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-534415525
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-534383712
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-533974040
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-533961832
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-533473131
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-534408282
 
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One very important use that Vulpix has that isn't tied to Bellsprout or Bluba is basically the only pokemon that can stop Aurora Veil Set Up from A-Vulpix. Nearly all of them carry Moonblast or HP Fighting for coverage, meaning Vulpix can easily switch in and prevent A-Vulpix from doing anything. Freeze Dry hits all the defoggers for good damage, and unless you want to run brick break honedge or something (plus there are always ghost types) there really isn't much you can do to stop it from setting up on a slower/more balanced team.

Yes, AV is juts one kind of team, but I think its popularity will explode once people try it because it is insanely good.
Just want to point out that Hippopotas, Cloud Nine Lickitung, (Swablu and Psyduck too but .. lol) also stops AV from being set up on switch-in, while other common mons like Mienfoo/Onix/Ponyta/Abra/literally anything faster with decent power stops AV from being set up. Pokemons like Stufful and Pikipek, which always carries Brick Break can remove Veil as well. Also want to point out that Serene's Grace AV team is a huge part of the meta right now, so is still a valid point on Vulpix.

Don't really have an input on anything else, except:


Alolan Sandshrew up to B+ [or A-]

A- is a bit too high for Sandshrew A imo. While still being a threatening mon outside of hail, it's main niche is Slush Rush with high power moves and strong attack stat. However, it does need a fair amount of support from hazards and weather. I think the pokemon is just as threatening as an A/A+ mon, as the support needed are easy to provide, but just the amount of support needed for such a sweep still puts it in tier with other B mons that could also be very threatening if well supported. It most certainly deserves B+ though, as it's ability is rather unique, and both scarf/Evio sets are viable outside of hail.

and

Alolan Grimer up to A

Grimer-A is basically a check to every single pokemon in the tier (Bar Ground types). It has great mixed bulk, good attacking stats, although below-average speed. It's typing leaves only 1 weakness, and an immunity to Psychic (And access to trapping+Priority) making it a great partner for the otherwise common Fighting and Poison types in the tier that otherwise lives in fear of the mighty Abra. I've found myself using Alolan Diglett as a way to semi-deal with this monster, just because it is so annoying, and even that lives in fear of a STAB Knock Off (Like all the other ground types, Mudbray being the only one not caring). Gunk Shot is a powerful af STAB to have this meta, with the more accurate Pjab being another option. It's movepool isn't fantastic, but it's got the tools it needs in Pursuit, Shadow Sneak, STAB Poison, Knock Off, Curse, RestTalk and Fire Blast.
 
Just want to point out that Hippopotas, Cloud Nine Lickitung, (Swablu and Psyduck too but .. lol) also stops AV from being set up on switch-in, while other common mons like Mienfoo/Onix/Ponyta/Abra/literally anything faster with decent power stops AV from being set up. Pokemons like Stufful and Pikipek, which always carries Brick Break can remove Veil as well. Also want to point out that Serene's Grace AV team is a huge part of the meta right now, so is still a valid point on Vulpix.
Blizzard + Freeze Dry 2HKOs Hippo (or 2 Freeze Drys with a little prior damage), so it's not a safe switch in. Same thing with Swablu and Psyduck. Lickitung can switch in, but it really isn't the best pokemon in the tier right now.

Mienfoo, Onix, Ponyta, Abra etc. all cannot prevent AV from going up if you need to switch them in.

I don't think Brick Break Stufful is a thing. Hammer Arm or Superpower are usually better, and Pikipek is weak to Ice so cannot switch in safely.
 
Blizzard + Freeze Dry 2HKOs Hippo (or 2 Freeze Drys with a little prior damage), so it's not a safe switch in. Same thing with Swablu and Psyduck. Lickitung can switch in, but it really isn't the best pokemon in the tier right now.

Mienfoo, Onix, Ponyta, Abra etc. all cannot prevent AV from going up if you need to switch them in.

I don't think Brick Break Stufful is a thing. Hammer Arm or Superpower are usually better, and Pikipek is weak to Ice so cannot switch in safely.
Imo the only reason you're running stufful rn is to counter veil teams. While hammer arm and superpower are stronger, not losing stats on stufful and breaking screens is valuable in this metagame
 
Darumaka @ Choice Band
Ability: Hustle
Level: 5
EVs: 116 HP / 196 Atk / 196 Spe
Jolly Nature
- Flare Blitz
- Rock Slide
- U-turn
- Super Power

i think that Darumaka is a B+ rank pokemon.
It can OHKO most things in LC including Timburr.
Great movepool Great stats Great ability(you are taking a risk with hustle because if you miss you're dead)
Hey, welcome to LC!

I think you missed this in the original post:
Also don't nominate a Pokemon to move up more than 2 sub rankings. There are instances where this is needed, such as when a new mechanic is discovered, but usually it is not and in fact nominations of such a large jump tend to be disagreed on by the community at large.
The reason behind this guideline is that significant discussion has already gone into individual rankings (note that not all of it is in this thread - many of the rankings were carried over from the ORAS viability rankings). Small adjustments in individual placements are needed to account for metagame shifts, but a large nomination, such as Darumaka all the way from C+ to B+, ignores and discredits the reasoning behind the current placement.

The exception is for new mechanics, but this doesn't apply for CB Darumaka, which has been around since gen 5. LC generally does not favour slow and frail but powerful attackers due to its offensive nature; CB Darumaka has a lot of difficulty getting into play, and will almost always be forced out after a single KO. In other words, you will often have to sacrifice a Pokemon just to get Darumaka in for a one for one trade that ends with momentum with the opponent, which isn't worth it. This is on top of how Darumaka is a) vulnerable to every entry hazard, which leaves it very prone to being worn down in conjunction with Flare Blitz's recoil, meaning the one for one trade can only be done so many times; b) frail without Eviolite, so if Hustle comes into play and Darumaka misses, it will likely be KOed, which turns the one for one trade into a zero for two; and c) essentially a dead weight against many offensive teams, as it isn't uncommon for entire teams to be 17 Speed or over, allowing them to outspeed and KO Darumaka. Spritzee is an important Pokemon that Darumaka is able to safely switch into, but between Stealth Rock and Flare Blitz recoil, it will often only be able to do so once throughout the match.

Choice Scarf is usually considered Darumaka's best set, as its superior Speed tier allows it to threaten entire teams with the potential for a 2HKO or OHKO once it comes in on the revenge-kill, while not being nearly as easy to revenge kill as the Choice Band set. However, this set still suffers greatly from its unreliability, and its low Speed tier and vulnerability to strong priority means that it is still quite easy to force out. It also suffers from Rufflet as a Hustle abuser despite their different typings, as Rufflet hits a better Speed tier and has more switchin opportunities due to its immunity to Ground and Spikes while still being able to 2HKO most of the metagame.

Be sure to carefully consider a Pokemon's drawbacks when nominating it to move up. For higher rankings, it is also important to take into account how easily a Pokemon fits onto a team, which is another one of Darumaka's weak points; its frailty and lack of useful resistances means that it is often passed up for Pokemon with more defensive utility.

Litleo: Unranked up to C+
This is different from Darumaka's case because Litleo did not have Flare Blitz before. Physical Litleo was awful when its strongest Fire STAB was Fire Fang, forcing it to go special, where it was completely overshadowed by the faster Ponyta, stronger Vulpix, and both stronger and more versatile Houndour, leaving it with no reason to be included on a competitive team. With Flare Blitz, it can now properly take advantage of Moxie boosts, leaving it with a unique and significant niche as a relatively fast snowballing sweeper (as opposed to Scraggy) that doesn't have to carry a Choice Scarf (as opposed to Sandile).

Of course, if there turn out to be a lot of success stories in Litleo, it could definitely move up, but I think that mid C is a good initial placement for it. I'm concerned about how difficult it is to get both a Flame Charge and Moxie boost due to how weak Litleo is initially. Even if there is a slower, weakened Pokemon that is forced out by Flame Charge, a combination of Flame Charge and Inferno Overdrive fails to OHKO most healthy Eviolite holding Pokemon:
196 Atk Litleo Flame Charge vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 4-6 (17.3 - 26%) -- 0% chance to 4HKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 6)

196 Atk Litleo Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 15-18 (65.2 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

On top of that, if Inferno Overdrive is used up to get the Moxie boost, then Litleo has to rely on a +1 Flare Blitz to sweep, which is even weaker than +0 Inferno Overdrive:
+1 196 Atk Litleo Flare Blitz vs. 156 HP / 116+ Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)

So Litleo will need quite a lot of Pokemon to be weakened beforehand before it has a real shot at sweeping bulky offense and balance. Against hyper offense, it faces the additional issue of being able to set up at all, seeing how its bulk isn't very good without Eviolite and it's vulnerable to entry hazards.
Litleo also becomes fairly easy to revenge-kill with priority after Stealth Rock and some recoil damage.

---

Croagunk, Alolan Grimer, Kabuto, Wynaut (up)
Expect all of these to move up in the next update; it doesn't look like anybody disagrees with them being ranked way too low. Kabuto hasn't seen much discussion in this thread, but its ranking is frequently brought up in discussions on discord and showdown. Note that Wynaut is moving up solely on its merits in a metagame where easily trappable Pokemon like Timburr and Staryu are omnipresent; Gothita being banned shouldn't be part of the reasoning here when Wynaut's standard set has been well defined since DPP, and it was considered C to C+ material back in gen 6 well before Gothita became prevalent.

Sandshrew being moved up also hasn't seen any disagreements yet, but it also hasn't seen that much discussion to begin with.

Vulpix, Bellsprout, Cherubi (up)
Agree with Nineage that Vulpix and Bellsprout should be at the same rank, whether that's B+ or A-, based on how we consider Sun. Vulpix does have some sets like Life Orb and Choice Scarf to fit onto general offense outside of Sun, whereas Bellsprout is almost entirely dependent on Vulpix to succeed. However, non-support Vulpix sets suffer as standalone Pokemon due to how easily forced out they are due to terrible bulk and only decent Speed, coupled with how punishing being forced out is to them because of the weakness to hazards. We shouldn't take these alternative Vulpix sets into account for the same reason we don't take into account a Scarf set for Snivy's ranking (though less extreme); they're pretty much C+ level sets, and aren't worth considering for a nomination to A- or A.

As for Vulpix and Bellsprout's actual rank, keep in mind that Sun is a very specific archetype to begin with, and though Vulpix/Bellsprout are just about mandatory on Sun teams, they're nowhere near A or even B level on other archetypes, and so are much less splashable overall than everything in the A ranks. That being said, Sun is in such a strong state right now that we end up seeing a lot of Vulpixes and Bellsprouts anyways, so A- is definitely justifiable.

Triple Chlorophyll Sun is hot as hell, I don't know where all this hate is coming from. But Cherubi does actually have some use on double Chlorophyll, even if Bulbasaur is usually the better choice, because Healing Wish makes it much easier to preserve Vulpix so that the team can less riskily forgo a secondary Sun setter. A strong Weather Ball is also a more useful coverage move alongside Solar Beam than anything other Chlorophyll sweepers (outside of Bellsprout) have to offer, including Bulbasaur's Sludge Bomb, so Cherubi can still pull its weight offensively despite not having Bulbasaur's Speed or defensive typing. Weather Ball makes Cherubi so much more immediately threatening than most Chlorophyll sweepers, and Healing Wish supports Vulpix so well, that Cherubi is easily the third best Chlorophyll sweeper, and genuinely has enough merits to compete with Bulbasaur for a slot on a legitimate competitive strategy in double Chlorophyll, which qualifies it for D, though it probably isn't enough to get Cherubi into the C ranks.

Tirtouga, Alolan Sandshrew, Snubbull (up); Carvanha, Pawniard (down)
There are some other nominations on previous pages that could see more discussion, but these are the most important. Nineage sums up why I don't think Tirtouga should move up, and I already explained my thoughts on Billy's drawbacks on the previous page. I actually feel that Alolan Sandshrew is closer to moving down because its weak STAB moves and common weaknesses give it a negative matchup against a large portion of the metagame, which tends to cut sweeps from Hail variants short and prevents support variants from doing much more than suicide Spinning; it doesn't help that Hail gets outshined by Sun in more ways than one.

An update should be coming soon. Also, nineage is part of the viability ranking council now.
 
Blizzard + Freeze Dry 2HKOs Hippo (or 2 Freeze Drys with a little prior damage), so it's not a safe switch in. Same thing with Swablu and Psyduck. Lickitung can switch in, but it really isn't the best pokemon in the tier right now.

Mienfoo, Onix, Ponyta, Abra etc. all cannot prevent AV from going up if you need to switch them in.

I don't think Brick Break Stufful is a thing. Hammer Arm or Superpower are usually better, and Pikipek is weak to Ice so cannot switch in safely.
I was implying that Vulpix-A can't come in and set up on those, other way around won't work obviously. Brick Break Stufful is a thing for the RestTalk / Bulk Up sets, but Stufful itself is not a thing. Was just the first thing with Brick Break I could think of (Coz Pawniard is not common at all ...)

As for Swablue and Psyduck, those were just mentioned for the lols, but their ability makes it possible. No, they're not safe switch-ins, but they do stop Aveil from being set up. As for your point on Lickitung, I find it quite useful right now, but I'm the guy running Diglett-A so what the fuck do I know?

Now for Hippopotas. First of all, Blizzard has 50% Accuracy in Sand, so I'll take my chances. Second, I was thinking about stopping Veil, not countering Vulpix-A. For that Hippo is more than good enough, although it does struggle with Vulpix itself. However, Vulpix A is easy enough to switch in on when hail is gone, so can quickly switch out Hippo again. Definitely not a safe switch in, but a good option if you don't have any ways to deal with set up sweepers.

196 SpA Vulpix-Alola Freeze-Dry vs. 132 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Hippopotas: 14-18 (56 - 72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 14, 18)

196 SpA Vulpix-Alola Blizzard vs. 132 HP / 100 SpD Eviolite Hippopotas: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

If your switch in is predicted, you do get a second chance tho, so dw. That the only Hippo set I've been running, at least on any relevant teams.

As for your Vulpix, it's not really a much safer switch in:
196 SpA Vulpix-Alola Hidden Power Ground vs. 52 HP / 0 SpD Vulpix: 10-14 (47.6 - 66.6%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(10, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 14)

Not gonna start theorymonning, you all use this however you want. I'm just bringing up silly options to stop A Veil from being set up and to come clear that i did not want anyone to start running Stufful, Psyduck, Swablu or Hippo to counter A Veil, I just listed them as options. I do think you all need to start running Brick Break Chespin though, coz that shit is bomb
 

tahu

Within me there grows a rhythmic savage beast
is a Pre-Contributor
zig needs to move up. the meta right now is very friendly to it: ghosts aren't supposed common and the most common normal resists lose to thief. also, alola grimer is a fantastic partner for zig: it can pursuit trap abra and gastly and provide memento support reliably. this makes it easier to build a team around zig without losing to common shit. it probably shouldn't move up a lot (a- even is probably stretching it) but it's definitely better than things like pancham and cranidos.
 

Hilomilo

High-low My-low
is a Contributor to Smogon
Sorry if I'm derailing discussion in doing this, but I'd like to go ahead and nominate
Riolu down to B-. Riolu really just isn't cutting it as a Fighting-type wincon anymore to justify placement in B. The prankster nerf really did this thing in, since now it isn't able to check Dark-types - a type that as a Fighter it should be able to check - once they're boosted. I genuinely just feel like Riolu's cons outweigh its pros too much for it to justify use over Swords Dance Mienfoo, Dragon Dance Scraggy, Swords Dance Pancham or even Bulk Up Timburr. Even with Eviolite, it isn't bulky enough to tank hits nearly as well as the latter and former two (like Spritzee's Moonblast, Snubbull's Play Rough, etc.), and due to its reliance on Copycat, is only able to fit one coverage move alongside STAB, which often leaves it walled by whatever is hit by the coverage option it didn't choose (i.e. you hit Foongus with Zen Headbutt but can't hit fairies with Iron Tail anymore). Riolu also lacks Knock Off, unlike the other four fighters in B or higher, and relies on an extremely situational move in High Jump Kick to sweep/wallbreak. Its also kind of this poor combination of fairly slow and fairly frail. You could argue that these have always been problems Riolu faces, but I feel like most metagame trends, such as the return of Spritzee, the rise of Sun, Alolan Muk, and Scraggy, and Vullaby's presence in the tier just have really exacerbated these flaws and made Riolu increasingly harder to justify using over other Fighting-types.

Overall, it just feels like you have to support Riolu way more than fighters it is either close to in rank or shares a rank with in Pancham and Scraggy, and it's really just becoming increasingly harder to justify using over these two, Mienfoo and Timburr for the reasons mentioned above. Thanks for reading!
 
Litleo: Unranked up to C+

Litleo is not even on the Viability rankings and this thing is now a monster thanks to Moxie and it being able to use a Z-move. In the past, Litleo struggled to set up and it required a lot of support to dent the opposing team and it did not have the bulk to switch into moves. Fighting types were everywhere (they still are) but now it stands a chance at sweeping opposing teams thanks to Z-moves. It has an excellent speed tier and could outrun adamant choice scarf Mienfoo and Jolly Rufflet at +1 from a flame charge. Here are some calcs that show how powerful this thing now is. After a little bit of prior damage, most of the tankiest things in LC could be KO'd by Litleo's Inferno Overdrive and that's mighty impressive imo.
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196 Atk Litleo Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 19-24 (90.4 - 114.2%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
196 Atk Litleo Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 21-25 (91.3 - 108.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 196 Atk Litleo Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
+1 196 Atk Litleo Inferno Overdrive (190 BP) vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 21-25 (87.5 - 104.1%) -- 37.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock


It's also worth noting that Timburr's Mach Punch does not K.O Litleo from full.
116 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 20 HP / 52 Def Litleo: 12-14 (52.1 - 60.8%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Here is the set that I use on my Litleo:
Litleo @ Firium Z
Ability: Moxie
Level: 5
EVs: 20 HP / 196 Atk / 52 Def / 4 SpD / 180 Spe

Jolly Nature
- Return
- Flame Charge
- Flare Blitz
- Wild Charge

Normal and Fire STAB work well with each other and Wild Charge is there to dent water types like Omanyte, Tirtouga, Shellder, and Staryu. Flame charge should be used while scaring out a Pokemon or once you know that they are willing to sacrifice their Pokemon. Be weary that most ground types could beat Litleo 1 on 1 so it's best to have a water or grass type on your team to get rid of them.

Here are some replays that show how destructive Litleo can be:
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-534415525
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-534383712
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-533974040
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-533961832
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-533473131
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-534408282

Loving the Litleo! Has saved/swept in so many games!
http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/gen7lc-536540034
 
Likes: OP

Gummy

send typecharts
is a Pre-Contributor
Why is Meowth in C? Meowth isn't even comparable to stuff like Natu and Rowlet. The fact that Deerling and Shellos are a whole two ranks above it is laughable. Onix is stupidly common in the SuMo meta, and Meowth completely stops it provided both players lead with them. Fake Out + Feint stops Abra and Carvanha, Fake Out + Water Pulse stops Drilbur, Onix, and Dwebble, and Fake Out + Aerial Ace stops Mienfoo and basically every fighter not named Timburr (and Stufful, I guess?).

Meowth isn't necessarily a top-tier threat, but it's leagues better than most of the stuff in C, especially considering this is C's description:
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.
Meowth doesn't require much support; in fact, it's relatively easy to fit onto a team. It sits at the second-highest Speed tier and has a great ability. What outclasses Meowth? Aipom? You can make a case for that, but nothing quite has Meowth's level of powerful priority. Aipom is basically Meowth's only serious competition as a fast Fake Out user. Meowth is also fairly capable vs sun. Fake Out + Feint guaranteed KOes Bellsprout (unless it's running evio for some reason) as well as Vulpix. Granted, Meowth can't switch in to any of Bellsprout's attacks, but once its in safely there's literally nothing they can do but switch, wasting sun turns. If Meowth is kept alive to the very end of a match, it makes for a good cleaner, as most stuff is too weak to survive STAB LO Technician-boosted priority at that point. Fake Out + Feint can even ko LO variants of Staryu, unless you get a min roll on both turns. It puts on a lot of pressure and half the time it's forcing your opponent to switch. Meowth is also fairly versatile, and it can run a bunch of different options (although wpulse and ace are usually its best bets).

Meowth has a spot on teams as a reliable anti-lead that can consistently revenge kill. To reiterate, Meowth can't switch into literally anything, which is why it's not A or even B+ material. However, coming in from a free switch or slowpass/u-turn/vswitch, it immediately threatens what's in front of it provided its name is not Pawniard or Ferroseed.

Onto the cons, however, and why nobody says "omg it can kill Mienfoo and Diglett??! wheres the S rank???". On paper, Meowth beats all sorts of leads for common playstyles like Aurora Veil support, balance (SR setters like Onix for example) and even sun. Off paper, however, Meowth has a hard time actually catching these things because they simply switch out. Once Meowth is out of battle, the only way to get it back in is to sack something, which only works for so long. While it does beat a lot of things, if the opposing team doesn't have those things, Meowth becomes dead weight and you're at an immediate disadvantage since it can't provide any defensive utility whatsoever.

As a revenge killer, Meowth does have a load of competition. Scarf Mienfoo has far more defensive and offensive presence and is generally a bigger threat to everything. Diglett hits a higher Speed tier and doesn't rely on switching out to use its primary priority attack--considering Meowth can't even afford to switch in consistently, Fake Out puts it at a disadvantage. It's also very matchup based; Meowth is great against HO teams due to their frailer nature, and the fact that Speed isn't even a question when you have priority>2, but its abysmal vs bulkier teams. At best, all it can hope to do is chip something and die. Also, Fake Out is unreliable. Sure, it can beat Bellsprout and Diglett--if Fake Out is useable. If not, Meowth can't touch either of these Pokemon, and it's forced to switch. Finally, it's weak to all Fighting-type priority like Mach Punch and Vacuum wave, it can't touch Timburr, has 4 move slot syndrome, and has yet to see use in SPL (although that doesn't really matter because Sewaddle of all things has a 100% winrate but I digress!). Thanks to Meowth's inconsistency, predictability, and complete lack of defensive presence, it can't justify use on most serious teams and shouldn't rise above B-; but I still think that C is far too low for what it can do.

I'll briefly mention usage stats even if they're not too reliable. Meowth is up there with Vulpix and Croagunk in terms of usage, and above Snivy and Scraggy. It's a serious thing to consider when building a team and definitely shouldn't be written off at team preview. However, it's hampered by a slew of flaws that clash together. Because of this, Meowth should easily rise to B-.
 
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I would like to nom one more thing. Maybe that will seem a bit strange but I think Trubbish is definitely worth being B- . Actually, in a meta where Fighting types are absolutely dominants, that mon can be great. I mean, what can really switch-in on a fighting type whithout risking anything from their most common sets ? Snubbul ? Spritzee ? Come on, these things just hate to be knocked off (even tough Snubbul can have Thief, it doesn't like to lose its berry juice). And trubbish just doesn't give a damn about it thanks to its ability. And it got spikes, too, which can be really useful actually. And it also has a great stab in Gunk Shot, but also Drain Punch, Recycle for the berry juice, and so on (it actually has some moves that could help luring too, as Seed Bomb/Giga drain for Onix and co, for instance). Of course that mon isn't worth being A either as it still has a lot of problems dealing with some common threats (such as Onix, but also a lot of others I guess), and it also lacks power. But still, I don't think mons like Shellos or Amaura should really be above him, and they actually are right now. And again, I don't think that one of the best (THE best ?) answer to fighting types of the meta should have the same rank as Lileep or Spinarak.
 
Hey guys, I've probably missed something, but I don't really get why Scraggy is only B+. Shouldn't it be A- or even A ?
With SM, one of his worse threat, Fletchling, is gone and Cottonee can't Encore/Stun Spore him thanks to Prankster's small nerf.

Despite his huge weakness to fairy, he can run Iron Tail / Iron Head / Poison Jab to hit them.

What are your opinion about it ?
 
Move Kabuto up. Obvious reasons. Rocks and spin on a strong mon with weak armor buff. Easy bird answer. Does so many things well in one slot. To B imo
THIS x 100. EASY B+ or A minus. So much role compression in one. Rocks, Spin, Knock, Prio are all options and it has one of the best abilities in the meta in WA right now. Also it has a pretty good attack stat too.
 

Quote

Cautiously Optimistic
is a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Co-Leader
Big update to the VR! We had a chat about stuff nominated here as well as things that may not have been mentioned but we felt were necessary to discuss. Here is the list of changes this time around:


Mudbray down to A
Pawniard down to A
Snubbull up to A
Bellsprout up to A-
Croagunk up to A-
Vulpix up to A-
Mareanie down to B+
Vulpix-Alola up to B+
Zigzagoon up to B+
Kabuto all the way up to B
Riolu down to B-
Sandshrew up to B-
Wynaut up to B-
Bulbasaur all the way up to B-
Deerling down to C+
Meowth up to C+
Numel down to C
Litleo added to C-
Geodude-Alola down to D
Karrablast down to D
Crabrawler down to D
Cherubi added to D

Also, remember the warnings Coconut and I gave in the past. Firing off random baseless nominations all the time kills this thread and it was the reason I had to lock it prior to posting this update. Starting a new discussion for a pokemon is fine but I strongly recommend you discuss other nominations brought up, because that gives the VR Council a better idea of what people are thinking about key threats and metagame trends.

You may begin discussion once again.
 

Elec.

mind the gap
is a Pre-Contributor
I would like to nom one more thing. Maybe that will seem a bit strange but I think Trubbish is definitely worth being B- . Actually, in a meta where Fighting types are absolutely dominants, that mon can be great. I mean, what can really switch-in on a fighting type whithout risking anything from their most common sets ? Snubbul ? Spritzee ? Come on, these things just hate to be knocked off (even tough Snubbul can have Thief, it doesn't like to lose its berry juice). And trubbish just doesn't give a damn about it thanks to its ability. And it got spikes, too, which can be really useful actually. And it also has a great stab in Gunk Shot, but also Drain Punch, Recycle for the berry juice, and so on (it actually has some moves that could help luring too, as Seed Bomb/Giga drain for Onix and co, for instance). Of course that mon isn't worth being A either as it still has a lot of problems dealing with some common threats (such as Onix, but also a lot of others I guess), and it also lacks power. But still, I don't think mons like Shellos or Amaura should really be above him, and they actually are right now. And again, I don't think that one of the best (THE best ?) answer to fighting types of the meta should have the same rank as Lileep or Spinarak.

I feel like Trubbish is actually quite slept on, no one seems to be using it anymore compared to last gen. It may not be overly powerful but it is able to Recycle stall a lot of Pokemon, especially Fighters since you pretty much avoid the 2HKO like from Mienfoo, allowing it to stall while hitting them with Gunk Shot. Trubbish is also one of the fastest Spikers in the game, hitting 17 Speed, usually meaning that it gets out one layer most of the time, along with alternating between Toxic Spikes (however with teams usually having Poison, Flying & Steel types a lot this is less reliable). Even if it gets fucked by Diglett and Mudbray, its niche of hard countering Fighters, Recycle stalling and Spikes setting warrants it to be B-.

Now I'm gonna nominate Dewpider down to C+ as much as I like to use it.


At a first glance, Dewpider seems like a big threat, with a Water Bubble-boosted Liquidation that hits foes at 170 BP on top of STAB and an immunity to burns, this thing hits almost anything hard. However in this role it is largely outclassed by Corphish, who can use Adaptability Crabhammer with much better Speed and Attack, access to priority in Aqua Jet and Knock Off, and make use of boosting moves like Swords Dance and Dragon Dance. So what about its defenses and Special Attack right? While it does learn Scald and have good defenses, it competes with Mareanie in this role, who can set Toxic Spikes, remove stat boosts with Haze, and has reliable recovery in both Recover and Regenerator. The only thing Dewpider has over it is a much stronger Scald and Infestation, allowing it to trap the foe for a bit. While Dewpider has some nice resists to Fighting, Ground, Water, and Fire (cause Water Bubble), its weakness to Stealth Rock really hurts it making it hard for Dewpider to be consistently defensive. Overall there is no reason for Dewpider to have been B- for so long and the fact that its outclassed by Corphish offensively with Dewpider's low Speed, Mareanie defensively and has a weakness to Rocks really make it hard for it to carve a niche of its own other than being a one time tank, so like I said in the beginning I nominate Dewpider to drop to C+, for now anyways.
 
Time to discuss one of my favorite mons this gen.
Doduo A->A

Doduo this meta is absolutely ridiculous, having no switch ins bar Weak Armor rock types. Sure other mons can tank one hit, but that does not make them a switch in when doduo outspeeds them next turn. A lot of mons people think are switch ins to doduo are not switch ins as well.

For example here are some mons that can soft check doduo. Lets see how well they tank hits

236 Atk Doduo Brave Bird vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

236 Atk Doduo Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Magnemite: 20-24 (105.2 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

236 Atk Doduo Brave Bird vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO

236 Atk Doduo Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236 Atk Doduo Brave Bird vs. 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

-1 236 Atk Doduo Brave Bird vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oh look. Non LO doduo 2hkoes nearly all of these mons. Snub of course gets juice and juice bray would recover up however this means you go foongus for example which is an excellent doduo partner rn and is a solid switch in to all of these mons and get a free spore or chance to sludge bomb poison vulla for example or make a double and get a wallbreaker or solid overall mon in a good position.

Doduo currently is in my opinion the best pokemon in the metagame at wearing down and chipping away at it’s own checks as there really isn’t a counter bar as I said WA onix or Kabuto. The thing about doduo answers as well is none of them have reliable recovery which is huge. If you get safe switch in into doduo more often than not you are getting a free kill. Rufflet is also a very similar mon to doduo as they both chip down their counters incredibly fast, however rufflet is blind; Doduo is not. Four eyes are better than two. Anywho a set I have been having a load of fun with and mild success with rn is Juice SD doduo. This thing is ridiculous at late game cleaning having +2 quick attack for anything above 18 speed, and BB and jump kick for anything else which at +2 ohkoes everything in the tier bar sturdies and sashes which if you play correctly will be gone. A mon with at best 3 switch ins in the tier should not be A- in my eyes. Now we just need to run sash gravity abra + rufflet so it can stop missing all the fucking time.

I have other noms but no time so expect one for foongus to S coming soon
 
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