Resource LC SuMo Viability Rankings (updated @ post #204)

Status
Not open for further replies.

Elec.

mind the gap
is a Pre-Contributor
Time to discuss one of my favorite mons this gen.
Doduo A->A

Doduo this meta is absolutely ridiculous, having no switch ins bar Weak Armor rock types. Sure other mons can tank one hit, but that does not make them a switch in when doduo outspeeds them next turn. A lot of mons people think are switch ins to doduo are not switch ins as well.

For example here are some mons that can soft check doduo. Lets see how well they tank hits

236 Atk Doduo Brave Bird vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 8-10 (32 - 40%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO

236 Atk Doduo Jump Kick vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Magnemite: 20-24 (105.2 - 126.3%) -- guaranteed OHKO

236 Atk Doduo Brave Bird vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 5-6 (23.8 - 28.5%) -- 99.6% chance to 4HKO

236 Atk Doduo Jump Kick vs. 76 HP / 0 Def Onix: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236 Atk Doduo Brave Bird vs. 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 12-15 (48 - 60%) -- 90.2% chance to 2HKO

-1 236 Atk Doduo Brave Bird vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 12-15 (52.1 - 65.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

Oh look. Non LO doduo 2hkoes nearly all of these mons. Snub of course gets juice and juice bray would recover up however this means you go foongus for example which is an excellent doduo partner rn and is a solid switch in to all of these mons and get a free spore or chance to sludge bomb poison vulla for example or make a double and get a wallbreaker or solid overall mon in a good position.

Doduo currently is in my opinion the best pokemon in the metagame at wearing down and chipping away at it’s own checks as there really isn’t a counter bar as I said WA onix or Kabuto. The thing about doduo answers as well is none of them have reliable recovery which is huge. If you get safe switch in into doduo more often than not you are getting a free kill. Rufflet is also a very similar mon to doduo as they both chip down their counters incredibly fast, however rufflet is blind; Doduo is not. Four eyes are better than two. Anywho a set I have been having a load of fun with and mild success with rn is Juice SD doduo. This thing is ridiculous at late game cleaning having +2 quick attack for anything above 18 speed, and BB and jump kick for anything else which at +2 ohkoes everything in the tier bar sturdies and sashes which if you play correctly will be gone. A mon with at best 3 switch ins in the tier should not be A- in my eyes. Now we just need to run sash gravity abra + rufflet so it can stop missing all the fucking time.

I have other noms but no time so expect one for foongus to S coming soon
Like you said Doduo has very few switchins which make it really easy to chip down & remove checks to it and the team. I do not think Doduo should be in the same rank as Rufflet because while Rufflet is more powerful and has U-turn, Doduo is faster and far more consistent because it doesn't miss. Doduo is also a Pokemon that you must think prepare for at all times on any team. Often times teams fall flat to Doduo because they didnt bring enough bird checks or only brought slow mons that were weakened enough for Doduo to clean up. It's also relatively easy to support Doduo as Grasses all remove Doduo's only switchins, Mienfoo is great as it can bring Doduo in safely with U-turn while hitting Steels and Rocks Doduo may not OHKO, and Diglett forms an offensive core with Doduo being able to trap and KO Rocks, Steels, and 19 Speed mons that might trouble Doduo while Doduo gets rid of Grass types. This doesn't sound like an A- mon to me, move it up to A.

And to add more onto Trubbish, Trubbish's Spikes support and ability to get rid of Fighters and Fairies really supports setup sweepers. An example of which is Scraggy who especially appreciates all of these traits Trubbish has making it easier for it to clean up late game. Tirtouga and Dwebble don't like Fighters either and can easily sweep with them gone & Spikes up. As I said earlier rise it to B-
 

Kurukaito

" Il oublie que la rue a ses gle-ré "
is a Tiering Contributoris a Smogon Media Contributor
Meowth: C+ -> B


In my side, I think Meowth deserved more than C+ rank. With his high speed, his access of powerful Fake out boosted by Technician, Feint, Double Edge, Water Pulse, Knock off, U-turn or other not used moves like HP Fight or Gunk shot plus the Life Orb he is so powerful. Also, he reach 19 speed with jolly nature and 18 with adamant nature, so he can easily revenge kill a lot of Pokemon like set up sweepers. Only counters are Steel type, but with U-turn + Dig or HP Fight he can pass some of them. So after all of that I think Meowth can't be ranked Sandile or Spinarak, and deserved a B rank. And atm with sun he can easily counter them. ( He kill Bellsprout and Vulpix with Fake out + Feint combo )

236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Dwebble: 4-5 (19 - 23.8%) -- possible 5HKO
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Water Pulse vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Dwebble: 18-23 (85.7 - 109.5%) -- 75% chance to OHKO

236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 8-9 (38 - 42.8%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Meowth Double-Edge vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Bellsprout: 12-16 (57.1 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Bellsprout: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Vulpix: 12-16 (60 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Vulpix: 9-12 (45 - 60%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Hidden Power Fighting vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard: 26-31 (123.8 - 147.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO


As we can see, Meowth can put a pressure on a lot of Pokemon, and have a powerful revege kill's ability.
 
Problem with Meowth is that as a frail normal type it posses next to no defensive synergy. Unless you're running HO or just made a team from 5 and have nothing else to use and just want to throw something in there then fitting Meowth onto your team is extremely difficult. Sure it's combination of powerful priority and speed is nice to finish stuff off but many things have priority and many things have speed, and there aren't many situations I can think of where you'd need both. And other priority/scarf mons can actually switch in or provide some sort of synergy beyond 'bopping' stuff after a teammate dies. It's power and speed comes at the cost of being really hard to fit onto a team and competing with more established Pokemon. And even then it competes more directly with Aipom, who's a little slower but is a better wallbreaker and gets better coverage (arguably). C+ sounds like a good deal to be honest.

Edit: Levi informed me that Aipom has the same speed as Meowth but Meowth still has as stronger Fake Out and access to Feint. Thanks.
 
Last edited:

Serene's Grace

I know you felt it too
is a Tiering Contributor
Hello Ladies,
Look at your Meowth, now look at Aipom.
Now back at your Meowth, now back at Aipom.
Sadly, your Meowth is not an Aipom.
Now if Meowth switched to Old Spice bodywash instead of that lady scented shit, he could try to be Aipom.
But he would still not be Aipom.

Aipom does everything Meowth wishes it could do; the only redeeming quality it has is access to the Fake Out+ Feint combination. Aipom is stronger, has better coverage and is just overall better in almost every aspect. The speed and priority deal is really only useful against sun and for revenge killing, and even then its relegated to coming in after a kill because of how frail it is and how it lacks any defensive synergy. That once niche, however, is what is keeping it in C+ instead of something even lower. With Aipom at B+, its hard to justify Meowth even touching the B ranks when Meowth has only one reason to be ranked in the first place.

(and also what fresher than you said, don't want to just rehash his points)
 
Last edited:
I feel like Tirtouga should be on here. It has the Sturdy/Berry Juice combo down pat, helping it Shell Smash to outspeed Scarfers. It then has great physical prowess. Here is my set.

Tirtouga @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 212 Atk / 92 SpA / 180 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Shell Smash
- Waterfall
- Rock Slide
- Ice Beam
 

Gummy

send typecharts
is a Pre-Contributor
I feel like Tirtouga should be on here. It has the Sturdy/Berry Juice combo down pat, helping it Shell Smash to outspeed Scarfers. It then has great physical prowess. Here is my set.

Tirtouga @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 212 Atk / 92 SpA / 180 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Shell Smash
- Waterfall
- Rock Slide
- Ice Beam
Tirtouga IS on here. It's in the B+ rank.

Also, you may want to use Aqua Jet or Zen Headbutt in your last slot and shift the SpA EVs to Defense! It'll help you not get walled Fighting-types.
 
I feel like Tirtouga should be on here. It has the Sturdy/Berry Juice combo down pat, helping it Shell Smash to outspeed Scarfers. It then has great physical prowess. Here is my set.

Tirtouga @ Berry Juice
Ability: Sturdy
Level: 5
EVs: 212 Atk / 92 SpA / 180 Spe
Lonely Nature
- Shell Smash
- Waterfall
- Rock Slide
- Ice Beam
Tirtouga has base 22 speed. Tirtouga with your spread hits 22 speed at +2. That means it does not outspeed the most common scarfers, being Foo, Chinchou, Doduo, Rufflet and the more odd ones like Elekid, Gastly and Vullaby. It also only speedties with other common scarfers such as Magnemite. Even with a speedboosting nature it would be outsped by Foo, Chin, Doduo and the like. Just like pointing out flaws is all :) Also I feel like Tirtouga is a bit too slow for a smasher rn, seeing that the meta is so fastpaced. It does not set up on too many mons either I think, but please do not quote me on that.
 
Magnemite down to A-

Magnemite is no longer as good as it was back in ORAS. With Doduo's newfound access to Jump Kick, Magnemite is now unable to consistently switch into it, limiting its ability to perform as a Flying-type check. Furthermore, gen 7 has introduced Mudbray, a very common and very large threat that counters Magnemite. Its presence in battle means that Magnemite can't safely spam Volt Switch, and with sufficient Special Defense investment, it can take a Flash Cannon with ease. It can recover with Rest too, allowing it to switch into Magnemite multiple times throughout a match. The rise of Timburr, which can threaten it with super effective STAB priority, Knock Off, and Drain Punch just makes matters even worse for Magnemite. Another small thing is that sun is now really good, making Munchlax and Hippopotas better, both of which check Magnemite effectively (although they're not common). It faces competition with Chinchou as an Electric-type especially because unlike Magnemite, Chinchou is able to reliably deal with Rufflet (which has risen in usage due to it now being able to learn Brave Bird) and Nasty Plot Vullaby. Magnemite is not worthy of its A+ ranking that still hasn't been changed since ORAS.
 
Magnemite down to A-

Magnemite is no longer as good as it was back in ORAS. With Doduo's newfound access to Jump Kick, Magnemite is now unable to consistently switch into it, limiting its ability to perform as a Flying-type check. Furthermore, gen 7 has introduced Mudbray, a very common and very large threat that counters Magnemite. Its presence in battle means that Magnemite can't safely spam Volt Switch, and with sufficient Special Defense investment, it can take a Flash Cannon with ease. It can recover with Rest too, allowing it to switch into Magnemite multiple times throughout a match. The rise of Timburr, which can threaten it with super effective STAB priority, Knock Off, and Drain Punch just makes matters even worse for Magnemite. Another small thing is that sun is now really good, making Munchlax and Hippopotas better, both of which check Magnemite effectively (although they're not common). It faces competition with Chinchou as an Electric-type especially because unlike Magnemite, Chinchou is able to reliably deal with Rufflet (which has risen in usage due to it now being able to learn Brave Bird) and Nasty Plot Vullaby. Magnemite is not worthy of its A+ ranking that still hasn't been changed since ORAS.
252 Atk Hustle Rufflet Return vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25)

A slightly bulky Bjuice spread I think. Reliable enough, but SturdyJuice mag should be a lot safer than this. Rufflet itself is not exactly reliable tho due to hustle, so technicially there's an even less chance of an OHKO, meaning Chinchou is reliable enough at least as a check/counter. Eviolite manages to live no matter what tho, making it an ok check, but can't switch in on Ruff with Evio as it's 2hko'd by return. Both Mag and Chin pressures rufflet though, which is nice.

Doduo just plain wrecks both with KO+Jump Kick/Return (if it carries that idfk don't use it alot), so not gonna bring that up. You are evidently correct about mag being a poor Doduo counter. Also didn't 2Knock Offs from LO Doduo deal with Mag earlier anyways?

Vullaby could be Knock, making mag a poor switch in. fully agree on this one. However, if Weak Armor Vull, I think Mag does just as good a job as Chin does. Weak Armor Vull is by far the most common set, making Mag a better Vull switch-in now than before.


Mag still pressures flying types, so I think it still is almost as viable as in ORAS, BUT ... almost. However, I don't think Chinchou is more legit as a flying check, and hence I don't think Magnemite should drop to A-. Dropping to A seems somewhat fair, due to the rise of usage to Ruff/Tim, the addition of Mud and (Although soon this will be invalid I guess since most ppl seems to wanna ban sun) the usage of Hippo/Munchlax. Mag never really was a flying counter, but it's just as good as a check tbh (Counter = switches in on, Check = Can threaten out if given free switch).
 
252 Atk Hustle Rufflet Return vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
(21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25)

A slightly bulky Bjuice spread I think. Reliable enough, but SturdyJuice mag should be a lot safer than this. Rufflet itself is not exactly reliable tho due to hustle, so technicially there's an even less chance of an OHKO, meaning Chinchou is reliable enough at least as a check/counter. Eviolite manages to live no matter what tho, making it an ok check, but can't switch in on Ruff with Evio as it's 2hko'd by return. Both Mag and Chin pressures rufflet though, which is nice.

Doduo just plain wrecks both with KO+Jump Kick/Return (if it carries that idfk don't use it alot), so not gonna bring that up. You are evidently correct about mag being a poor Doduo counter. Also didn't 2Knock Offs from LO Doduo deal with Mag earlier anyways?

Vullaby could be Knock, making mag a poor switch in. fully agree on this one. However, if Weak Armor Vull, I think Mag does just as good a job as Chin does. Weak Armor Vull is by far the most common set, making Mag a better Vull switch-in now than before.


Mag still pressures flying types, so I think it still is almost as viable as in ORAS, BUT ... almost. However, I don't think Chinchou is more legit as a flying check, and hence I don't think Magnemite should drop to A-. Dropping to A seems somewhat fair, due to the rise of usage to Ruff/Tim, the addition of Mud and (Although soon this will be invalid I guess since most ppl seems to wanna ban sun) the usage of Hippo/Munchlax. Mag never really was a flying counter, but it's just as good as a check tbh (Counter = switches in on, Check = Can threaten out if given free switch).
Magnemite down to A-

Magnemite is no longer as good as it was back in ORAS. With Doduo's newfound access to Jump Kick, Magnemite is now unable to consistently switch into it, limiting its ability to perform as a Flying-type check. Furthermore, gen 7 has introduced Mudbray, a very common and very large threat that counters Magnemite. Its presence in battle means that Magnemite can't safely spam Volt Switch, and with sufficient Special Defense investment, it can take a Flash Cannon with ease. It can recover with Rest too, allowing it to switch into Magnemite multiple times throughout a match. The rise of Timburr, which can threaten it with super effective STAB priority, Knock Off, and Drain Punch just makes matters even worse for Magnemite. Another small thing is that sun is now really good, making Munchlax and Hippopotas better, both of which check Magnemite effectively (although they're not common). It faces competition with Chinchou as an Electric-type especially because unlike Magnemite, Chinchou is able to reliably deal with Rufflet (which has risen in usage due to it now being able to learn Brave Bird) and Nasty Plot Vullaby. Magnemite is not worthy of its A+ ranking that still hasn't been changed since ORAS.

Stick it to A- still imo. If you want a flying counter run WA kabuto or onix. If you want a scarfer chou does everything mag does but better bar pressure spritz and spritz is still 3hkoing so it's not a switch in to spritz which is a positive to juice. Juice there are so many 50/50s whether to endure or attack, not getting knocked, keeping it at 100%, scouting for moves, etc it's hard to see this thing at A+ still when so many mons rn that are lower do it's jobs better than it does.
 
Hello Ladies,
Look at your Meowth, now look at Aipom.
Now back at your Meowth, now back at Aipom.
Sadly, your Meowth is not an Aipom.
Now if Meowth switched to Old Spice bodywash instead of that lady scented shit, he could try to be Aipom.
But he would still not be Aipom.

Aipom does everything Meowth wishes it could do; the only redeeming quality it has is access to the Fake Out+ Feint combination. Aipom is stronger, has better coverage and is just overall better in almost every aspect. The speed and priority deal is really only useful against sun and for revenge killing, and even then its relegated to coming in after a kill because of how frail it is and how it lacks any defensive synergy. That once niche, however, is what is keeping it in C+ instead of something even lower. With Aipom at B+, its hard to justify Meowth even touching the B ranks when Meowth has only one reason to be ranked in the first place.

(and also what fresher than you said, don't want to just rehash his points)
Let me know when Aipom :
1. Beats Abra 100% of the time
2. Can revenge Carvanha (granted that's a 50/50)
3. Can revenge +2 Shellder
4. Can beat Scarf Mienfoo
5. Can revenge +2 Clamperl
6. Can revenge a +2 SpA + Spe Vull
7. Can beat Lead BJ/Groundium Z Dwebble (To be fair these one's are uncommon)
8. Can revenge Diglett
9. Can revenge Scarf Rufflet (Praise)
10. Can beat Archen (less common now with Sun gone)
11. Can revenge +6 Zigzagoon (with bj broken)
12. Can revenge Scarf Doduo
13. Can revenge Scarf Chinchou
14. Can revenge Scarf Bunnelby
15. Can revenge +2 Spe Numel
16. Can revenge Scarf Pikipek

As we can see, Meowth's niche is actually really good, against HO teams. Meowth's main job is NOT an anti lead. If you are looking specifically for an anti-lead use Aipom. If you want a mon that can act as a safety net vs certain sweepers Meowth is your mon. Some might say you can't switch Meowth into anything, the same is true for Aipom in most cases, and it's not either one's job to switchin to an attack.

Tl:dr : Meowth =/= Aipom, Meowth is a sfety net vs HO sweeps primarily, and an Anti-Lead second.

Edit : BTW let me know when anything else does those things Aipom can't if you think the niche is irrelevant. Also Meowth definitely deserves B, or B needs some cleaning up because look at the stuff in it.
 
Last edited:
Likes: PD
Let me know when Aipom :
1. Beats Abra 100% of the time aipom
2. Can revenge Carvanha (granted that's a 50/50) abra
3. Can revenge +2 Shellder pawniard, timburr
4. Can beat Scarf Mienfoo abra
5. Can revenge +2 Clamperl abra
6. Can revenge a +2 SpA + Spe Vull abra
7. Can beat Lead BJ/Groundium Z Dwebble (To be fair these one's are uncommon) ???
8. Can revenge Diglett revenging diglett means it's already killed something
9. Can revenge Scarf Rufflet (Praise) abra
10. Can beat Archen (less common now with Sun gone) abra
11. Can revenge +6 Zigzagoon (with bj broken) abra
12. Can revenge Scarf Doduo abra
13. Can revenge Scarf Chinchou abra
14. Can revenge Scarf Bunnelby abra
15. Can revenge +2 Spe Numel abra???
16. Can revenge Scarf Pikipek ???
I don't understand why so many newer people are hyping this thing, it's literally worse than Wingull last gen in terms of noobtrap-ness. If you want a revenge killer, there's just better options. Plain and simple. While sure, Meowth can kill these things on paper, it is extremely unlikely to do so against anyone with half a brain. SWITCH OUT YOUR POKEMON. Sure, you could claim that it's a win if meowth forces out something, but now you have a meowth on the field against something that's going to completely murder it, you lost all, and I mean all momentum, and now you have to sit there and watch as something else as to come in because Meowth is made of paper. Meowth also has an awful case of 4MSS, so you can say that it beats xyz threat, but then you're missing out on something else that's actually important. The thing that revenge killers do best that meowth does not do is threaten the next pokemon that comes in. Abra has a myriad of coverage options, all of which hit insanely hard, Meowth, on the other hand, has Water Pulse. I don't see how this pokemon should be anywhere near the B ranks. Run Cottonee or Abra if you're super concerned with sweepers, they will gel with your team better and provide what Meowth does and more.

Now, regarding Magnet. While I agree that Magnemite shouldn't be A+ at the current moment, the points being made against it are outlandish and pretty raw. In ORAS, Doduo had Knock Off, which made Mag unable to check it in the first place. Why is there a Rufflet vs Chinchou calc in a Magnemite post? While the people that posted have the right idea and have great enthusiasm in their posts in the first place, which is wonderful, the points that are being made the actual drop are a tad misguided. I'd say with the recent changes to the metagame, drop it no lower than A and see how it develops a bit more.
 
I nominate Bellsprout down to B+/B.

While the Vulpix's ban affected it in a negative way, now being easy to beat by many Pokémon, there are still some Pokemon that can help it with Sunny Day support like Onix, Diglett, Cottonee and Ponyta, which is known for Z-Sunny Day. What it sets them apart from the banned one is that they can't set instantly Sun, and if playing carefully, they can get worn down easily. And with that, Bellsprout can get in trouble against many things, being easy to deal with it. But there is still one thing, and they are Z-Moves. Acid Downpor still weakens its checks, but the difference is that is more easy to do revenge kill than before, if the supposed Sun setters are weakened first.

That's why I think it should be B+/B. If I'm wrong, correct me, please.
 

Quote

Cautiously Optimistic
is a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Co-Leader
Can we please stop discussing Meowth? It's not going to move up because there are so many pokemon that do its job better while also being a more reliable teammate overall. It's certainly not the worst which is why it was moved up to C+ in the first place, but it's not going any higher than that. Don't bring it up again.

Also, I removed the Sun abusers from the VR. I'd like Bulbasaur to be discussed at some point but the rest of them are gonna stay gone.

Oh, and I agree with Magnemite dropping to A, but I can't put my finger on why. It just feels worse when I use it. I guess the combination of fightspam and how mag has a difficult time checking some of the faster stuff has put a lot of pressure on it. Mudbray's annoying as well. idk
 
Last edited:
We have removed Vulpix, Oddish and Bellsprout and have also lowered Bulbasaur to C+. Further discussion on where Bellsprout should be ranked if ranked at all is encouraged, as would is discussion on where to rank Bulbasaur.

My thoughts are that Bellsprout is at best C rank as it stands, as it is a frail attacker that requires 1 turn set up to become threatening. It can be supported with other Pokemon, however that is generally unideal and the opportunity cost of using Bellsprout is quite large. Perhaps top of D is where it should be but honestly I'm content with it being unranked.

Bulbasaur is slightly better than Pumpkaboo-S, I have found, mostly due to the potential for Sleep Powder and a neutrality to Sucker Punch. Sludge Bomb is far superior to Fire Blast in terms of hitting Vullaby too, though generally they're two Pokemon of rough equivalence.

As for Meowth, lol. Honestly it isn't moving up, especially now.

Agree with Magnemite drop, though the reasons given are questionable. Steel-trapper isn't amazing, it doesn't beat any common bird, and common mons are a nuisance for it when it does manage to come in. The trade off between low speed or switching moves is becoming more damning, and teams are increasingly prepared to work around a magnemite. However it is still fucking awesome offensively, and none of its sets are bad even with the meta unfavorable to it.
 

Quote

Cautiously Optimistic
is a Global Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Tiering Contributoris a Battle Server Moderatoris a Smogon Social Media Contributor Alumnus
LC Co-Leader
Sweet, didn't want to make another edit. Good think Fiend posted.

Diglett for S. Groundium Z has given it the ability to trap more mons at a higher health, making it more difficult than ever to keep your key mons healthy enough to handle it. In addition, Life Orb and Sash sets still exist, giving it more variety on what it can trap than ever before. A 21 Defense Pokemon typically takes either 15 or 16 damage from a 180 BP Tectonic Rage, 21/22/24 if the mon doesn't have an Eviolite. That's insane! Even if it can only do that once it can play a role similar to a Sash Diglett after that, either setting rocks or clicking Memento if it wants once the job is done.

I'd like to see more discussion about this, but it seems like a given to me.
 
Sweet, didn't want to make another edit. Good think Fiend posted.

Diglett for S. Groundium Z has given it the ability to trap more mons at a higher health, making it more difficult than ever to keep your key mons healthy enough to handle it. In addition, Life Orb and Sash sets still exist, giving it more variety on what it can trap than ever before. A 21 Defense Pokemon typically takes either 15 or 16 damage from a 180 BP Tectonic Rage, 21/22/24 if the mon doesn't have an Eviolite. That's insane! Even if it can only do that once it can play a role similar to a Sash Diglett after that, either setting rocks or clicking Memento if it wants once the job is done.

I'd like to see more discussion about this, but it seems like a given to me.
Do not forget Scarf Diglett is a thing too, so it has even more options to choose from apart from the Groudium-Z, Sash and LifeOrb
 

zf

take it easy, amigo
is a Tiering Contributor
I've seen a couple of posts requesting a Mag drop (something I agree with) but I think the given reasons for the drop are entirely incorrect. Here's a bit of metagame analysis comparing it to its role in ORAS:

On scarf:
Scarf Mag's viability is directly linked to the nerf to Cottonee, the loss of Fletchling, and the introduction of z-moves. Collectively, this did a few things metagame wise. Without Cottonee or Fletchling to check Scraggy / Carvanha, fighting types, especially those with strong priority (Timburr / Gunk), are extremely common. These act as hard stops to Magnemite no matter what HP they are at, unlike the dominant fighter of ORAS, Mienfoo, which could be killed after some chip damage. This alone means it is much harder to clean with Magnemite and the defensive backbone of teams its used on need strong fighting checks (fighters are harder to check than ever with the popularity of coverage Punch Timburr and mixed / NP Gunk). Secondly, the fall of Cottonee and Fletchling means Shellder no longer needs Ice Shard to be an effective sweeper and runs coverage that beats Magnemite. This means that Magnemite lost most of its defensive utility as a scarfer, as it now checks very few mons and brings little defensive synergy to the teams that use it. Thirdly, with the introduction of z-moves, there are now multiple threatening sweepers in the 14/15 speed range that boost to +1, namely Pumpkaboo-Small. Again, this is another threat that Magnemite cannot check which many offensive teams rely on a scarfer to deal with. Because of this, the average speed of scarfers in this metagame have increased past Magnemite's speed tier, once again leaving it unable to clean vs teams that utilize said faster scarfers. These metagame shifts, along with its classic struggle of 50/50s vs ground types (Onix and Diglett are still common) and lack of beneficial metagame additions (high Stayu usage is one of the few), make Scarf Magnemite a niche pick at the moment.

On SturdyJuice:
This set has always been dogshit but now it's even worse because of the metagame trends listed above.

On Evio Trapper:
Pawniard is less ubiquitous because Fletchling is bad / Shellder can beat it / more Fighters / etc so targets it wants to trap have minimal usage. Ironically, Fletch and Shellder were two of its best partners and they no longer need its support either, so this set is niche, yet again.

Send this mon to A-.

While I'm here, here's some other noms:
Ponyta to A-: Staryu, Onix, and Diglett are very common, burn damage was nerfed, and Pawn usage is way down, making the defensive set a borderline liability. Offensive sets are good (z-solarbeam, z-sunny day) but they don't bring much in the way of defensive utility, making them hard to fit on a team.

Gunk to A: It checks so much in just 1 teamslot and 16 SpA Focus Blast hits hard. NP has less checks than ever. Great mon rn (someone feel free to provide less subjective reasoning here).

Pumpkaboo-Small to B+: It's a potent sweeper with limited checks and decent utility, being a rare ground resist and fight immune.

Pumpkaboo-Super to B+: Burn nerf makes this mon really passive and bait for some threatening stuff like Vullaby, Foongus, Snivy, etc.
 
I think it's fine that everything that was ranked solely for its niche on Sun should be unranked. I wouldn't consider manual weather teams viable at all; until manual Rain becomes a legitimate archetype, I don't see a niche on manual Sun teams, which have weaker and less varied abusers than manual Rain, being noteworthy for a ranking. The whole point of Sun was that its abusers didn't have to risk themselves to set up; otherwise, I see no reason to use Bellsprout, given its horrible defenses making it difficult to set up, and an inability to further boost its damage leaving it without the OHKO power to actually sweep. C+ seems reasonable for Bulbasaur since its Z-Celebrate set offers a few things over Trick-Or-Treat Pumpkaboo-Small but is generally the worse set, and Pumpkaboo-Small really needs to rise.

I agree that Magnemite should drop because it's not up to par with the other A+ Pokemon - it's much less splashable than Diglett / Foongus and lacks Shellder's uniquely game breaking sweeping potential. I don't know if it should drop all the way to A- right off the bat, though. Magnemite has never been a very reliable answer to various metagame threats; it makes up for this in offensive presence. Many other bird checks are fairly easy to wall - rarely will you find a team that struggles to switch into the weak attacks of Chinchou or Kabuto, so letting them into play isn't particularly punishing. Giving Magnemite a switch-in opportunity is a lot riskier; Scarf Magnemite's Analytic boosted STAB attacks are absurdly threatening to teams that lack one of Ferroseed / Chinchou / Mudbray / Hippopotas, and even then, Magnemite has the means to wear down all of them. SturdyJuice Magnemite also packs more of a punch than Chinchou, and has the added benefit of acting as a general safety net for hyper offense comparable to Sashbra in the sheer number of sweepers it can revenge-kill. Think of Magnemite as a high risk, high reward Chinchou.

Agreeing with Dewpider to drop, there isn't much reason to actually use it on a team outside of it being really cute.


SPL regular season is over and I feel the following have become clear:


Alolan Grimer: A -> A+
This Pokemon is SO GOOD. It feels like a lifetime ago that I didn't look at a Grimer-less team and ask myself, "why do I not have a Grimer-A?" The last time we saw a soft check to the entire metagame of this caliber, Porygon was being nominated for S. Grimer's dedicated niche is relatively small, but it still makes its way onto all sorts of teams because it can back its niche up. A strong Knock Off, limited weaknesses, the bulk to avoid almost every unboosted OHKO, the versatility to fit onto just about any team - if I'm even a tiny bit vulnerable to Abra or Gastly, it's enough of an excuse to include Grimer, and if I'm not, it's probably because I already included it. If you have a dedicated sweeper, it probably benefits from Grimer-A; if you don't have a dedicated sweeper, your team is probably defensive enough to be weak to Abra and Gastly, in which case it benefits from Grimer-A; and if you have multiple sweepers to wear down Abra so that Grimer-A isn't needed in that regard, while somehow not being weak to Gastly, then Grimer-A can act as a nice glue Pokemon overall while still providing Knock Off and Memento, so you might as well run Grimer-A anyways. The only major sweeper that doesn't directly benefit from Grimer-A's trapping is Shellder, but it still appreciates Grimer-A luring in and Mementoing on Ground-types, or perhaps Fire Blasting the Ferroseed, so that it can more easily set up and sweep. Diglett doesn't stop Grimer-A from performing its job at all outside of threatening double switches. It's often just as difficult to leave Grimer-A off a team as it is to use it.


Carvanha: A -> A-
Carvanha is... not great. When Gothita left, it looked like it might still have a fighting (ha) chance with the rise of Tectonic Rage Diglett, but this was not to be - the popularity of Timburr and Croagunk makes it too difficult to justify basing a team around, and its inability to switch in on pretty much anything means it's generally not a great fit on the average team. Carvanha originally rose in viability during mid-late ORAS for its potency when a. paired with a trapper (CarvGoth), and/or b. used as a member of a fishspam or darkspam core.

Its best shot at sweeping is still when it's paired with Tectonic Rage Diglett to KO Croagunk and weakened Timburr, but this is quite difficult to set up, especially now that Croagunk is primarily Nasty Plot and Bulk Up Timburr is becoming the dominant set again. Fishspam simply isn't as big as it used to be - while still a potent strategy, it suffers from the ubiquity of Foongus, Croagunk, Snivy, Cottonee, Ferroseed, and Thunderbolt Staryu, which many teams will have more than one of, as well as tanks that fishspam members will struggle to OHKO, notably Timburr, Alolan Grimer, and Snubbull. Darkspam is still great, but Carvanha tends to be discarded in favour of the new and improved Grimer-A/Vullaby/Scraggy.

While it's certainly still possible to build with Carvanha, it's usually just way easier to build with some other strong offensive threats.


Croagunk: A- -> A
Croagunk has historically suffered from not being able to make much of an impact the first few times it gets into play relative to how easily it is to wear down, leaving it to rely solely on the sheer number of roles it covered to hold its own. However, several recently metagame shifts have been very friendly to it and serve to mitigate its drawbacks. The decrease in Gastly and rise in Alolan Grimer has shifted the metagame so that Nasty Plot Focus Blast has become Croagunk's main set, which gives it all the offensive presence it needs. It still benefits from its godsend of a typing and ability, letting it check Fighting-types, Alolan Grimer, and now frequently Psychic-less Staryu. Croagunk also readily fits onto Fighting spam, arguably the single strongest offensive archetype at the moment, for its sweeping potential and variety of coverage moves. Croagunk is risk-free to the point where it can reasonably compete with Foongus to act as the Poison-type pivot of choice for more offensive teams. Though it's not great as a single dedicated check to most threats due to its vulnerability to lures and simply being worn down, in terms of sheer splashability, Croagunk ranks among the best in the metagame, equal to or above every Pokemon in mid A.

In the current metagame, I feel that Poison-types are nearly as splashable as Fighting-types, to the point where their checks begin to significantly increase in viability. Just as it has always been for Fighting-types, Croagunk not only does what a Poison-type should do for a team, but checks opposing Poison-types as well.


Onix: A- -> A or A+
Of course, I can't mention splashable without mentioning Onix. Reliable Stealth Rock setter, fairly solid Bird check, Volt Switch deterrent, Alolan Grimer check, and Ponyta check, all rolled into one, packing decent offensive presence with its STAB combination and Explosion, denying setup sweepers through Taunt or phazing, all with a touch of unpredictability due to the growing prominence of its Weak Armor sets - Onix just does so much that it tends to get slapped onto a team without a second thought. Because of how much it offers in a single slot, it ranks among the best in everything it does; when you consider any other Stealth Rock setter, bird check, and Ground-type, you first consider what it has to offer over Onix. Despite its weakness to three of the S ranked Pokemon, it is consistently able to perform at least do something throughout the match, whether it's stopping a Vullaby sweep or weakening Staryu into Diglett range, just because it can do so much. Onix is arguably the most dominant utility Pokemon in LC after Staryu; when you think of role compression in LC, Onix should be the first to come to mind.
 
Cutiefly was banned from Little Cup during early SM LC due to the overcentralizing effect it had on the metagame and its broken QD+Baton Pass combo, so it was removed from the rankings. It may be re-added if it gets unbanned through further testing, or if the Tier Leaders decide to implement BP Clause, but this is unlikely to happen anytime soon.
 
Last edited:

Elec.

mind the gap
is a Pre-Contributor
wtf there's so many noms now. I guess I'll put my thoughts on them.

Onix up to A/A+: Onix is such as good mon. It was always among the most reliable Stealth Rock setters but now Onix can run Weak Armour thanks to the buff this gen allowing it to forgo Juice for Eviolite's bulk. This makes it almost impossible to tell if an Onix is Sturdyjuice or Weak Armour until you attack, and its almost quite a hassle to deal with both types of Onix which only makes it more deserving to rise. Agree

AGrimer up to A+: The arguments have been said over and over throughout this thread so I won't talk much. Alolan Grimer is the best trapper in LC, has nice bulk, only one weakness, Knock Off+Poison Touch, and it's so easy to fit onto a team. There isn't really much else to say. Agree

Ponyta down to A-: The popularity of Water and Rock types this gen have rose giving Ponyta a hard time to really do its job. Many of these Pokemon hugely benefit from the Weak Armor buff, such as Kabuto and Onix which makes it really easy for them to switch on Flare Blitz with their high Defense & resistances to then outspeed and KO it with a Rock type move. It was also a good Vulpix counter and even a sun check but now that Vulpix was banned it gives less of a reason to use Ponyta. Agree

Croagunk up to A: I already mentioned this before the last update and I still stand by it. Amazing role typing and ability, excellent role compression, and versatility in sets make it deserving of moving up. Agree

I may post more of my thoughts later but right now this is what I got, I think I agree with most of the noms anyways.
 

Drew

formerly LitsYaBoi1337
is a Contributor to Smogon
Let me know when Aipom :
1. Beats Abra 100% of the time
2. Can revenge Carvanha (granted that's a 50/50)
3. Can revenge +2 Shellder
4. Can beat Scarf Mienfoo
5. Can revenge +2 Clamperl
6. Can revenge a +2 SpA + Spe Vull
7. Can beat Lead BJ/Groundium Z Dwebble (To be fair these one's are uncommon)
8. Can revenge Diglett
9. Can revenge Scarf Rufflet (Praise)
10. Can beat Archen (less common now with Sun gone)
11. Can revenge +6 Zigzagoon (with bj broken)
12. Can revenge Scarf Doduo
13. Can revenge Scarf Chinchou
14. Can revenge Scarf Bunnelby
15. Can revenge +2 Spe Numel
16. Can revenge Scarf Pikipek

As we can see, Meowth's niche is actually really good, against HO teams. Meowth's main job is NOT an anti lead. If you are looking specifically for an anti-lead use Aipom. If you want a mon that can act as a safety net vs certain sweepers Meowth is your mon. Some might say you can't switch Meowth into anything, the same is true for Aipom in most cases, and it's not either one's job to switchin to an attack.

Tl:dr : Meowth =/= Aipom, Meowth is a sfety net vs HO sweeps primarily, and an Anti-Lead second.

Edit : BTW let me know when anything else does those things Aipom can't if you think the niche is irrelevant. Also Meowth definitely deserves B, or B needs some cleaning up because look at the stuff in it.
But you know what Meowth can't handle:
Offensive
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 8-9 (32 - 36%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
236+ Atk Life Orb Meowth Double-Edge vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)
156 Atk Vullaby Brave Bird vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Meowth: 19-24 (95 - 120%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(19, 19, 19, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 21, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 22, 24)

Nasty Plot/Z-Mirror Move
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 8-9 (32 - 36%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. -1 116 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Vullaby: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)


Choice Scarf
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vullaby: 9-13 (39.1 - 56.5%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Vullaby: 8-9 (34.7 - 39.1%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)

236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 8-9 (33.3 - 37.5%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 5-8 (20.8 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
(5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 8)
116+ Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Meowth: 18-24 (90 - 120%) -- 81.3% chance to OHKO
(18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)

And if you want to claim you're using Aeriel Ace:

236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 8-9 (29.6 - 33.3%) -- 0% chance to 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Feint vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 5-8 (18.5 - 29.6%) -- 0.1% chance to 4HKO
(5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 8)
12 SpA Spritzee Moonblast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Meowth: 13-16 (65 - 80%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 15, 16)

236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 84 HP / 108+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 3-4 (13.6 - 18.1%) -- possible 6HKO
(3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 3, 4)
236+ Atk Life Orb Meowth Brick Break vs. 84 HP / 108+ Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 13)

self-explanitory, unless you give up extra coverage for Knock Off.

236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 36 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Shellder: 5-8 (25 - 40%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO
(5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 5, 8)
236+ Atk Life Orb Meowth Double-Edge vs. 36 HP / 36+ Def Eviolite Shellder: 9-13 (45 - 65%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)
236 Atk Shellder Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Meowth: 20-25 (100 - 125%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 4, 5)

236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 8-9 (32 - 36%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
236+ Atk Life Orb Meowth Double-Edge vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
(12, 12, 12, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 13, 16)

236+ Atk Life Orb Technician Meowth Fake Out vs. 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 8-9 (32 - 36%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO
(8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 8, 9)
36 SpA Life Orb Technician Meowth Water Pulse vs. 116 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Mudbray: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 13)
236+ Atk Life Orb Meowth Double-Edge vs. +1 116 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Mudbray: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO
(9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 12)
116 Atk Mudbray Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 0- Def Meowth: 22-27 (110 - 135%) -- guaranteed OHKO
(22, 22, 22, 22, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 25, 25, 25, 25, 25, 27)

etc.

I basically made this list by going through vr and picking out mons that had any bulky whatsoever. To even get a chance to score a KO, you need to pick coverage, that allows other threats to check you without effort

meowth is an HO killer. Too bad HO is p bad in LC rn, especially with the exit of sun, something that could warrant even a move down for Meowth. This thing is usable at best, much less good in any way. Agree 100% with Coco's post too, as Scarf Pikipek should not be on a threatlist, nor Numel, nor entry hazards Dwebble. Switching anything else in also completely beats Meowth. Don't make the noob trap even more of a noob trap PLEASE!
 
I'll keep this short and simple.

Meowths job is not wallbreaking. What do you want it to do, be a great revenger, anti-lead, and a wallbreaker!?

Meowth fits on... Hyper Offense, which convienently carries wallbreakers and sweepers that weaken those to Meowth KO range over the course of a battle, or bust through them, or whatever.

Meowth vs. Abra comparisons are dumb. Sorry coco. A lot of times with mons like Mienfoo, especially early game, you don't know if they are scarf or eviolite. Sure Abra can beat revenge a scarfoo (or several other scarfers) just as well but good luck with beating any other fast Mon they have like Diglett, or Carv, or another scarfer, or a shell smasher or even the rare late game cleaning Torchic.

I am NOT saying Meowth is the best Mon. What I've been saying is that is has a very solid niche, and it's also pretty consistent with fulfilling that niche unlike certain mons like Aipom which can lack consistency because of things like fury swipes missing. Meowth easily deserves B or B- rank, either that or move some stuff like Riolu, Houndour, Skrelp or Amuara down.
 

Nineage

A Merry Pachyderm
is a member of the Site Staffis a Forum Moderatoris a Community Contributoris a Contributor to Smogon
Moderator


Moleman is good. Exactly how good moleman is seems to be one of the most frequently debated topics of this generation of LC. There are users on one side who have the numbers 1,2,3,4, and 5 in their usernames who believe Diglett is broken. There are others who think that Diglett is not even in the top echelon of LC Pokemon. For this reason, I think Quote bringing up a potential move of Diglett in the viability rankings is something that we should really discuss, not just agree/disagree briefly.

Overall, I feel that Diglett's ability to support a sweeper is not what it was last generation. I get that Tectonic Rage is a thing now, but I feel like the metagame has adapted to the point where most of the metagame's most potent sweepers are commonly checked by Pokemon that don't mind Diglett. Flying-Spam cores, for example, often find themselves against a Weak Armor Onix. Pokemon like Carvanha that on paper appear to clean with TectRage Diglett support often find themselves against the likes of Bulk Up Timburr and Nasty Plot Croagunk that can, to an extent, use their priority to take on Diglett. It's not like these supporters don't still don't appreciate the support Diglett provides, it just doesn't provide the immediate and extremely effective support that it provided to, say, Fletchling in ORAS.

The way I can see it argued to move Diglett up is just its potential as a pure revenge killer. Supporting a given sweeper aside, the ability to take out such a huge chunk of Pokemon, especially with Tectonic Rage, without them being able to switch out is huge. However, Diglett maintains the issue of losing momentum after getting a kill, especially if it doesn't run Life Orb. In metagames past, it was worth losing some momentum in the interest of taking out a key Pokemon checked your wincon. With that becoming harder for Diglett to do because of the reasons above, I feel like often it takes something out but then just loses momentum without giving its team a huge benefit.

Diglett is extremely versatile, and absolutely the best revenge killer in the metagame. I just think the above flaws are enough to make me lean towards keeping it A+ unless I see some good discussion to the contrary.

Most of the other nominations mentioned above seem reasonable. Especially agree with Grimer and Gunk up and Mag down. Eventually I might edit this with more specific thoughts on the nominations, but they seem pretty well-explained and I have lots of homework so don't count on it.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.