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LC Theorymonning: What if?

Discussion in 'BW LC' started by apt-get, May 3, 2013.

  1. Goddess Briyella

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    Fair points. ^_^

    Maybe Natu and Nosepass could work together to form a status blocking core. Nosepass could deal with Natu's issues and Natu is resistant to Nosepass's Grass weakness, 4x resistant to Nosepass's Fighting weakness, and is immune to Nosepass's Ground weakness. While Natu's ability to have instant recovery with Roost (as well as temporary removal of Flying's weaknesses) can be greatly beneficial to its longevity, it is still very frail and dies to Krow and Missy both in one hit even when at full health. Nosepass does get Pain Split, and while not as reliable as Roost, it can somewhat mitigate the damage taken from switching into Krow's Brave Bird, among other things. It's also notable that Nosepass is immune to Sandstorm, whereas Natu is not. In LC, where HP stats range in the 20s, this can go a long way. Due to Natu's frailty, as well as my other aforementioned ideas and points, I'm fairly confident that Nosepass could make a greater impact than Natu as a Magic Bouncer, despite Natu having a more reliable form of recovery. I think it could make the meta shift a little more away from Krow and provide more balance.

    EDIT: Nosepass also gets that 50% Special Defense boost in Sand, facilitating its longevity and status blocking power even more. This is notable for taking Missy's HP Fighting.
  2. Goddess Briyella

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    I apologize for posting twice in a row but your reply hadn't been posted while I was making a reply to Corkscrew's post. ^_^

    This is an awesome idea. A large part of why I chose Nosepass, however, is for flavor reasons. It has sort of a magnetic aura thing going on, as does its evolution Probopass. I figured something like this could be somewhat conceivable, if it were real. Although I think it would definitely be a good Magic Bounce user, I don't see how the context of Shelmet could suggest such an ability, not that it matters a WHOLE lot, but I do feel that it should somewhat be taken into consideration.

    But Shelmet, having access to instant recovery, sort of falls in the same boat with Natu. Although it has notably more bulk than Natu, even if Shelmet had Magic Bounce, it still is beaten outright by Murkrow's Flying STAB and Missy can setup on it and beat it out unquestionably. And your point about it taking low damage from notable attackers such as Mienfoo and Scraggy was true, but again, those mons don't carry any moves that Magic Bounce would deflect, and thus I feel that the calcs that should matter most are the ones about taking attacks from mons that are somewhat checked by the ability. The only real notable thing Shelmet can do in relation to gaining Magic Bounce and the mons and moves you mentioned is keep Drilbur from laying Stealth Rock.
  3. kingmidas

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    Not meaning to be knit picky, but it can't even due that due to mold breaker on drilbur.
  4. Goddess Briyella

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    That's if they're not running Sand Rush for that doubled speed, and if that is the case, Nosepass's more offensive teammates can take advantage of Drilbur's lack of speed, Sand or not. Good point, though.
  5. dwarfstar

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    Shelmet was the only thing I could think of that wasn't Psychic-type or weak to Fighting that wasn't completely ridiculous (only semi-ridiculous). The idea came from something I saw in D&D, actually - an enemy with a shell and a magically induced deflection bonus to AC as well as the natural armor bonus from a shell.

    Regarding Misdreavus, I'd argue that Shelmet isn't really setup bait because it can learn Yawn (which, incidentally, also works as a pseudo-phazing move to rack up Spikes damage). Misdreavus can't afford to set up on Yawn Shelmet unless she has a sleeping teammate or you're in a late-game situation, and even the offensive variants of Misdreavus can't really do all that much to a healthy Shelmet without a boost. If a healthy Shelmet comes in while Misdreavus is boosting, then Shelmet will take heavy damage from her next attack, but will still be able to Yawn, cutting short a potential sweep.
    236 SpA Eviolite Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Shelmet: 7-9 (30.43 - 39.13%) -- 61.55% chance to 3HKO
    236 SpA Life Orb Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Shelmet: 9-12 (39.13 - 52.17%) -- 0.39% chance to 2HKO
    +2 236 SpA Eviolite Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Shelmet: 13-16 (56.52 - 69.56%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +2 236 SpA Life Orb Misdreavus Shadow Ball vs. 116 HP / 236 SpD Eviolite Shelmet: 17-21 (73.91 - 91.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    EDIT: Parafusion Murkrow's Brave Bird has a 6.25% chance to OHKO and its Drill Peck is a guaranteed 2HKO. You need to know for sure it's running that set to switch in (and even then, good prediction is necessary), but if you manage to make it in safely there's a good chance you can Yawn/set up a layer of Spikes/do whatever you need to do.
  6. Superpowerdude

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    Firstly Magic Bounce doesn't make much sense flavour-wise on Shelmet while it atleast makes a little sense for Nosepass with Magnets deflecting stuff (idk lol) Besides Battle Armour is the only thing that lets Shelmet reliably boost its defense, recover and set up Spikes otherwise it will be way to prone to crit 'hax'

    My opinion on Magic Bounce Nosepass is similar to Corkscrews. It can be useful in some cases but it can still be beaten by a lot of status users like Drilbur, Foongus, Shroomish (although switching into Spore is easy) Nosepass could run Fire Punch to beat Ferroseed I guess. However it does much better against parafusion krow but idk if it could beat SubRoost because Subroost could easily PP stall it with Roost and Substitute. It can atleast twave or toxic missy crippling it, which Natu has no hope of doing but then again Porygon does that better due to Shadow Ball and Recover (which Nosepass lacks) it also loses to tge many Fighting-types in lc although at least it can twave Mienfoo, Croagunk and Riolu that switch-in.

    Tl;dr I think Magic Bounce would definitely make Nosepass more viable, but it will still be hard to fit on teams and will still face competition with Natu for a Magic Boince user.
  7. dwarfstar

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    Superpowerdude, this Shelmet isn't trying to boost its Defense and wall physical attackers like the standard is now. It's intended to mimic Natu's niche as a Magic Bouncer, but with the ability to keep Misdreavus in check, so not having room for Acid Armor isn't a problem.
  8. Rowan

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    Shelmet is still set up bait for SubPlot Misdreavus which will just become the standard set if Magic Bounce Shelmet is used a lot.
  9. Goddess Briyella

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    I'd like to note that there are things like Insomnia Scarfkrow and RestTalk Chinchou that are common enough to make Shelmet's Yawn obsolete much of the time. Not only that, but Shelmet's Yawn and Spikes are already bounced back by the true Magic Bouncer Natu, and Shelmet is also beaten outright by Natu's Hidden Power Flying. And if you opt to not run Acid Armor, you lose your ability to beat DD Scraggy and then your whole team is in major trouble when that instance arises. Remember that Scraggy has Shed Skin for Yawn's sleep status and Drain Punch to get a little health back when necessary.

    Also, while having the ability to wall a few things with toys like Recover can be great when combined with the ability to lay Spikes, Shelmet won't be able to just sit its ass down, as you'll be switching out to a Ghost faster than the spinner that comes in to dispose of your hazards, while nullifying the sleep from whatever you Yawned at during the previous turn.
  10. Superpowerdude

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    ^Agreed its also notable that Staryu can eaaily switch in to a Yawn because of natural cure and rapid spin Spikes away. Also as others have mentioned shed skin scraggy, sub +nasty plot Missy, Insomnia Krow (lo or scarf), restalk chinchou are all very common and don't care about yawn much. Without Acid Armour it will loose to quite a few physical sweepers that don't care about Yawn. Hell Mienfoo can Knock Off Shelmets evoilites it yawns, then U-turn out and uncommon stuff like Early Bird Houndour and Vital Spirit Magby can still beat it with Yawn. Even though Acid Armour works way better with Battle Armour for crit protection I still think its better than Yawn regardless of Shelmets ability. Yawn is still good becauase of the switches it causes to rack up Spikes damage but it still doesn't let Shelmet beat a number of things it would lose to without it (which are mentioned in this post)
  11. MQJinx

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    What if Drifloon can learn Shadow Strike?
    Kitsunoh's signature move would make Acrofloon even better, with a (possibly) better STAB due to the 50% chance of a defense drop. I could see a set running Acrobatics/Shadow Strike/Body Slam or Return/HP Fire (you don't want Ferroseed walling you) be common in LC, being the premiere physical Ghost-type in the metagame, (maybe) being competition with Misdreavus for a teamslot.
  12. Antemortem

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    The following calculation is Acrofloon (provided the set you offered has Hidden Power Fire) versus the standard Eviolite Ferroseed.

    13 Atk vs 25 Def & 23 HP (70 Base Power): 12 - 16 (52.17% - 69.57%)

    In the event that Ferroseed is carrying Thunder Wave, Drifloon still has the potential to instantly be crippled, which writes it off, as with any other LC sweeper, immediately. It also couldn't contest with Misdreavus for a teamslot if considering physical versus special, as the two Pokemon don't offer the same team support. If you meant offensively in general, that's fair enough, but otherwise that's impractical.

    Outside of most Steel-type checks (though Magnemite is a hard counter) Acrofloon provided it's granted Shadow Strike would be a force to be reckoned with.
  13. Goddess Briyella

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    I think this is would be a pretty unique addition, but I would like to point out that it would not really stand out as something that could have any substantial effect on the LC meta, if it were to exist.

    Misdreavus would still definitely outclass Drifloon if it had Shadow Strike. Base 50 Attack with the 50% chance of getting the Defense drop is largely overshadowed by Missy's base 85 Special Attack Nasty Plot. The -1 Defense is not guaranteed and even if you do get it, it can be nullified by U-turning or switching out to a check. Missy's Nasty Plot grants a guaranteed +2 that cannot be nullified by a foe switching or U-turning out, and after killing something, your opportunity to deal additional damage due to stat changes still remains so that you can hit hard again, while Shadow Strike's secondary effect would only last until the target goes down (or switches).

    Also I'd like to note that the set you have in mind is countered easily by Chinchou and also Scarf Magnemite (who can then use Volt Switch for either a sure OHKO or to retain momentum as you switch out) unless they switch into Body Slam and you get the paralysis hax. And switching out to avoid death will nullify your Unburden boost if you're running Flying Gem and you've used Acrobatics already, which is sort of unfortunate.

    But even with these points, I think it's a pretty cool idea nonetheless. ^_^
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
  14. Superpowerdude

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    I don't think Shadow Strike would change much at all. All it would really be is an alternative for Shadow Ball. Drifloon would still run similar sets (Flying Gem + Acrobatics) and it would still get walled and checked by the same pokemon e.g Chinchou, Porygon, Tirtouga, Murkrow, Scarf Mienfoo, Misdreavus, Magnemite and so on. Still I think the best moveset for Drifloon is Acrobatics, Shadow Ball (or Shadow Strike), Substitute and Destiny Bond / Will-o-Wisp / Hypnosis rather than the set you mentioned. The set that MQjinx mentioned is completely destroyed by any Sucker Punch user however the last two slots on the set I mentioned let you have a better chance against non SubRoost krow, and Houndour. Substitute is also a great move to use on the ever present Mienfoo or any Fighting-type really since Drifloon can scare them all out easily making setting up a Substitute a breeze.
  15. Chromatic Art

    Chromatic Art Banned deucer.

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    What if Litwick had his/her Dream World Ability, Shadow Tag?
    If Litwick had shadow tag he could make a decent revenge killer for example against mienfoo. If litwick would be scarfed he could revenge kill mienfoo pretty easily before mienfoo could u-turn out because without scarf litwick can only reach 12 speed so obvi 18 with scarf (just outspeeding foo at max speed). Most people now r either playing bulky foo or scarfed foo the majority playing bulky so speed wont be a problem. Only prob would be stone edge which u wouldnt switch into anyways.

    240 SpAtk Litwick Psychic vs 0 HP/196 SpDef Mienfoo: 76.19% - 95.24%
    Possible HP Damage: 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 18, 20

    2 hits to KO

    Litwick also has decent coverage with access to moves like overheat/fire blast, energy ball, shadow ball, psychic, and thats pretty much it, but i do think if litwick had shadow tag he would have some more potential and see some play.

    Just a idea :p
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  16. kingmidas

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    The issue with that would be you need to sack a mon because when a ghost in on the opposing team you would either uturn or knock off and both make litwick even more useless because it can't trap and it has no item.
  17. Chromatic Art

    Chromatic Art Banned deucer.

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    Say ur using a sandstorm team u have drillbur out and they switch into snover so u switch into litwick. Snover cant switch out and they most lickely will use blizzard and most ppl run a choice scarf set, so obviously there locked into blizzard (Not the best situation, but whatever).

    252 SpAtk Litwick Overheat vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Snover: 354.55% - 436.36%
    Possible HP Damage: 78, 78, 78, 84, 84, 84, 84, 84, 84, 90, 90, 90, 90, 90, 90, 96

    100% chance to OHKO

    Then just a calc showing it wouldn't kill ur litwick this is if its choiced. Snover would hit u once when u switch in and hit you another time because he is scarfed.
    252 SpAtk Snover Blizzard vs 0 HP/0 SpDef Litwick: 38.1% - 47.62%
    Possible HP Damage: 8, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 9, 10

    3 hits to KO

    -It also does work on croagunk a kind of common poke in lc.
    252 SpAtk Litwick Psychic vs 212 HP/116 SpDef Eviolite Croagunk: 100% - 133.33%

    -Sucker Punch isnt to much of a problem some croagunk sets dont even run it, but heres a quick calc.
    28 Atk Croagunk Sucker Punch vs 0 HP/0 Def Eviolite Litwick: 47.62% - 57.14%

    -Bronzor can easily be revenged killed.
    252 SpAtk Litwick Overheat vs 220 HP/148 SpDef Eviolite Bronzor: 72% - 96%

    -Pretty obvious it OHKO's ferroseed as well.
    252 SpAtk Litwick Overheat vs 164 HP/148 SpDef Eviolite Ferroseed: 156.52% - 208.7%

    -Magnemite get wrecked too.
    252 SpAtk Litwick Overheat vs 156 HP/176 SpDef Eviolite Magnemite: 114.29% - 142.86%

    All i'm really saying is litwick would be so much more viable.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  18. Nebuchadnezzar

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    Litwick could work as a great revenge killer of Blizzard locked Snover if you are sure they are holding Choice Scarf. However, switching into Snover would be quite risky for Litwick. If Snover is running a Hidden Power that is super effective against Litwick (such as Ground which is also used to kill Magnemite) Litwick would not be able to switch in.
    Here are some calcs:
    184 SpA Snover Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Litwick: 14-18 (66.66 - 85.71%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after weather
    184 SpA Snover Hidden Power Ground vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Litwick: 14-18 (66.66 - 85.71%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

    Litwick can counter Eviolite Snover, but those are very rare compared to their Scarfed brethren.

    The bottom line is, Litwick can very rarely 100% counter Snover.

    Additionally Chromatic Art, you point out that Litwick beats Magnemite. This, however is untrue unless Litwick comes in as a revenge killer after a Choice Scarf Magnemite has killed something. Eviolite Mag will just outspeed and Volt Switch out of Shadow Tag.

    Shadow Tag Litwick's release would have an impact on the LC metagame at-large, I'm just not sure it would be as big of an impact as you seem to believe.
  19. Chromatic Art

    Chromatic Art Banned deucer.

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    by no way am i saying it will have a huge impact, but as is the lc metagame is quite boring u see the same pokemon over and over, and by getting wrecked i meant in terms of damage it does. Also as i said in a previous post u would run scarf because of its poor speed. Without scarf litwick can hit 12 speed which by no means fast but beats a good amount of pokemon including mag if litwick is scarfed. Like i said b4 i dont think it will be huge for the metagame. It will never be broke or incredibly good because of its terrible stats and limited movepool. I just wanna see more lower tiered pokemon have a chance to do something.
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  20. apt-get

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    What if Larvesta got Quiver Dance?

    We all know how threatening Larvesta's Flare Blitz is, and how much momentum it can get momentum with U-turn. However... What if, instead of using Flare Blitz on your Staryu switch, it used Quiver Dance and KOed you with giga drain?

    Larvesta would be a pretty strong threat, notably thanks to its wide array of moves, the power of its STABs (Fire Blast/Bug Buzz), and the number of setup opportunities it has. It can simply setup on all of the fighting-types in LC, most steel-types, grass-types not named Lileep...

    +1 236+ SpA Larvesta Giga Drain vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Staryu: 14-18 (70 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    200 SpA Staryu Hydro Pump vs. +1 76 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Larvesta: 14-20 (60.86 - 86.95%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Chinchou/Staryu are easily beaten, even if they boast Hydro Pump.
    +1 236+ SpA Larvesta Fire Blast vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon: 15-18 (57.69 - 69.23%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 236+ SpA Larvesta Bug Buzz vs. 228 HP / 60 SpD Eviolite Lileep: 18-24 (69.23 - 92.3%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    (18, 18, 18, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 20, 24)
    +1 236+ SpA Larvesta Fire Blast vs. 36 HP / 20 SpD Eviolite Murkrow: 18-22 (78.26 - 95.65%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
    +1 236+ SpA Larvesta Fire Blast vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Misdreavus: 13-16 (59.09 - 72.72%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
    +1 236+ SpA Larvesta Fire Blast vs. 156 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 18-22 (78.26 - 95.65%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

    Quiver Dance Larvesta would be threatening in this meta, in my opinion. Not as good as behemoths such as Scraggy, but the ability to defeat its main switch-ins makes it really good.
  21. Charmander

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    Well, the ability to defeat its main switch-ins as you say isn't really a big deal for Larvesta even without Quiver Dance since it can just U-turn out, but Quiver Dance Larvesta definitely sounds interesting. I guess you would have to not run Bug Buzz if you ran Giga Drain cause with dual STAB and GD you would be completely walled by Fire-types, so the best set looks like QD, Giga Drain, Fire Blast, and HP Rock

    Although Larvesta's STAB coverage is kind poor, which is why I don't think it will be a huge threat in the meta, and it's checked by Scarfoo with Stone Edge and Scarfkrow already. I also think that QD Larvesta would have a lot of trouble setting up because of Stealth Rock; that's the biggest problem with Larvesta currently and QD Larvesta will have an equally hard time being effective because of it. It might be good as a lead or something, idk, cause it can set up on most Mienfoo and doesn't have to worry about Stealth Rock, but it doesn't seem very unstoppable even after it sets up.
  22. Superpowerdude

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    What if Larvesta got Quiver Dance

    Aside from what other users have said about it, I am intrigued by how easy would be to set up a Quiver Dance in some scenarios. Larvesta can set-up in some pretty common situations like against Scraggy, Croagunk, Timburr, Mienfoo lacking Stone Edge, Snover and even the switch to Chinchou or Staryu. The things stopping Larvesta from being a top-tier sweeper are its crippling Stealth Rock weakness and the fact that Drilbur and Sandshrew can outspeed a +1 Larvesta and ohko it with Rock Slide.

    For this reason I think a good offensive core would be Quiver Dance Larvesta and Choice Scarf Snover. Snover threatens sand teams that prevent Larvesta from sweeping while Larvesta can set up on the Fighting-types that counter Snover and that Snover lures in. Larvesta can also beat Pawniard and Magnemite with Fire Blast two of Snovers great counters. Its larvestas ability to lure and beat Staryu, Tirtouga and Chinchou also helps Snover because while Snover can certainly beat these Pokemon, they stop it from spamming Blizzard and having them removed can help achieve a late-game sweep. Staryu can also be added to the core for an effective fire/water/grass core and can spin rocks which Larvesta and Snover hate
    Charmander and TCR like this.
  23. Nebuchadnezzar

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    What if Bronzor got Recover?

    As we all know Bronzor has some of the best defensive stats in the tier. Its typing is also phenomenal defensively, boasting only two weaknesses. Aditionally, either of its abilities, Heatproof or Levitate, can take away one of those weaknesses. This would lead you to believe that Bronzor is the perfect wall, however the little plate lacks reliable recovery. If Bronzor were to gain Recover though, then I think it would have an impact on the LC metagame in general.

    First of all, Bronzor usage would rise tremendously. This would cause Magnemite to be used more as a hard counter to Bronzor not carrying Earthquake.

    Basically, the addition of Recover to Bronzor's movepool could make him one of the premier walls in the metagame.
  24. Charmander

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    Bronzor with Recover would actually probably beat Magnemite since it takes 28 - 40% from Thunderbolt and can attack Magnemite, who can't Recover

    I still think this would have an ENORMOUS impact on the metagame though. In fact, giving Bronzor Recover would revolutionize the meta; Snover, Drilbur, and even Murkrow would all meet a hard counter. I think the only way to beat Zor is either with a Fire-type or with Taunt. Ponyta would be a good check since Drilbur going down in usage and Bronzor checking Snover would make hail less popular and make Morning Sun better. Mienfoo, Misdreavus, and Murkrow would carry Taunt way more often, otherwise Calm Mind Bronzor would wreck everything :x
    Last edited: Aug 4, 2013
  25. Chromatic Art

    Chromatic Art Banned deucer.

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    Bronzor is annoying enough just using recycle oran berry if it got recover then it could just use eviolite instead of oran berry and be a even better and annoying wall.

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