Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0

[Corporal Levi]

OKAY SO doka and I were supposed to coordinate the timing of our posts and do so together but she went ahead and posted without me a few hours early :(

I believe the viability of a Pokemon can be reasonably split into three areas: the ease with which it can be included on a team, how consistently effective it is in battle, and how much support it requires. These tend to be intertwined - a Pokemon that is easy to include onto a team is generally so because it does well in most battles without a lot of support - but there are some exceptions, like Archen and Gothita. I will be using this line of thought to organize my arguments.

Drifloon to A+ or higher

I have seen claims that Drifloon is nothing more than 'overrated', but six wins and three losses in the highest level of LC play we have at the moment, as of week four, says otherwise. There have also been people who believe that the metagame will soon be able to adapt to Drifloon, as Recyclefloon has only become popular recently. This I can understand better, and it's part of the reason why I'm not nominating Drifloon for S absolutely (although I can certainly see it in S), but something tells me that Larvitar and Lum Berry Pawniard won't be catching on any time soon. Drifloon certainly has other viable sets, such as physically or mixed offensive sets and Calm Mind sweepers, but I feel that these pale in comparison to Recyclefloon the way Life Orb Mienfoo is much less common than Eviolite Mienfoo. As such, I will primarily be discussing this set:

Drifloon @ Berry Juice
Ability: Unburden
Level: 5
EVs: 36 HP / 36 Atk / 84 Def / 84 SpD / 196 Spe (or 36 HP / 36 Atk / 164 Def / 164 SpD / 36 Spe if Substitute isn't run)
Jolly Nature
- Substitute (/ Knock Off / Defog)
- Will-O-Wisp
- Recycle
- Acrobatics

Drifloon is just as, if not more splashable than most other A+ ranked Pokemon.

Drifloon's unique typing lets it fill a huge number of roles with just a single set. It's easily the best Spinblocker because it's so much more threatening than Pumpkaboo, and isn't a risky switch-in like Gastly is; this makes it incredibly difficult to give up for Webs and Spikestacking teams. It also fits well on birdspam teams because it happens to win against the vast majority of bird checks, crippling them with a burn at worst, and often simply taking them out. I am personally not fond of Fletchling, but Vullaby + Drifloon can be incredibly difficult for a lot of teams to deal with because the usual means to take out Drifloon tend to weaken a team enough for Vullaby to get a KO pretty much every time it comes in, and at the same time, Vullaby weakens most of its switch-ins enough for Drifloon to stall them out. Ghostspam consisting of Gastly + Drifloon is less common, but still a very strong strategy for similar reasons. This is all before mentioning Drifloon + Diglett, which is a strong enough core to dedicate a team to supporting and is a core that plenty of well-known LCers, including myself, agree is broken, but more on that later. Drifloon's strengths are more than enough to make it a standalone threat, too, as it has the survivability and means to harm foes that allow it to fit onto defensive and offensive teams alike. The ease with which it can fit onto a team I would argue exceeds Fletchling or Gastly, and is more comparable to Abra or Diglett.

Drifloon is almost always an enormous nuisance to opposing teams.

Drifloon is really, really good. What differentiates it from other offensive Pokemon in the sheer number of things it wins against. Fletchling CAN get around its checks in some way - for example, it can run Overheat instead of Roost to beat Pawniard and Magnemite switch-ins. However, by doing so, it forfeits its survivability, which leaves it prone to being worn down, as well as a good number of switch-in opportunities due to the decreased special bulk. Drifloon has no such issue. With the given set, Drifloon beats all the things birds and ghosts are supposed to beat, like Grass-types; it's admittedly only a soft check to Fighting-types, but so are other birds. It is also able to get around popular bird and ghost checks like Pawniard and Vullaby; if they don't run Choice Scarf or a boosting move, Drifloon outright beats them with a fair portion of its health left, and even a Choice Scarf isn't enough if Drifloon has already activated Unburden. Cleric support doesn't cut it, because Will-O-Wisp has double Aromatherapy/Heal Bell's PP. Even Ice Beam Porygon can't switch in, because Download boosts Porygon's Attack, and once Porygon is burned, Drifloon can stall it into Acrobatics range. Roost Archen loses too, by the way, because its Roost gets PP stalled. Not only does Drifloon spread burns, check key threats, and even pack the potential to outright sweep, it can do it all in one set. In this area, I actually think that Drifloon exceeds A+ ranked Pokemon; there are all sorts of methods to deal with Fletchling or Timburr or even Abra, but the ways to deal with Drifloon that aren't ridiculously costly are limited to a select few.

Anyways, onto floondig, which I strongly feel is, by a very large margin, the strongest two-mon core in the metagame. Drifloon is difficult to check, and even against teams with a dedicated counter can hold its own just because they'll have to spend a great deal of their time recovering off burn damage, but paired with Diglett, it becomes nigh unstoppable. Here is a list of reasonably common Pokemon that don't get stalled out by Drifloon:
- RestTalk Munchlax (RestTalk users are on this list because they can PP stall Drifloon, so BJ Munchlax actually loses unless it's the rare and amazing Curse + Pursuit set)
- RestTalk Skrelp
- RestTalk Chinchou
- Berry Juice Chinchou
- Recycle Magnemite
- Ponyta
- Elekid
- Onix
- Choice Scarf Hyper Voice Amaura
You can probably see where I'm going here. All of them except for Munchlax and Amaura share a very important trait. This trait begins with 'loses to' and ends with 'Diglett'. The reason why floondig is better than Shelldig or Vulladig and so very much better than Fletchdig is a result of how much of the metagame it wins against - traditional birddig checks like Archen and Porygon easily stop Fletchdig, but struggle immensely against Drifloon.
And it's not like revenge-killing Drifloon is an easy task when it hits 34 or 30 Speed after Unburden, depending on its EV spread.

Drifloon requires almost no support to function.

It doesn't take a whole lot of support to spread burns, stall out burned things, and occasionally click Acrobatics. In fact, Drifloon is so good at and needs so little to do what it does that it's closer to a support Pokemon than something that needs support; I mentioned some of its niches earlier, but the big support options it provides are crippling bird checks with burns and spinblocking. Its role as a lure can be made even more effective if Knock Off is run to cripple random RestTalk users even more, and Defog lets it fill an entirely different niche, although it'll be harder to sweep on its own without Substitute. Even Defog support isn't needed when Drifloon can take advantage of Stealth Rock to activate Berry Juice. This isn't to say that Drifloon doesn't appreciate support, because as I've brought up a few times already, floondig is sort of ridiculous. In comparison, the majority of A+ ranked Pokemon require far more support to reach a comparable level of effectiveness - Fletchling pretty much needs Diglett/Trapinch or fellow birds to pose as a significant threat, Timburr wants Pursuit trappers and Fairy checks if it plans to sweep, and Diglett requires teammates that can switch into what forces it out after a revenge-kill. Abra is probably the only A+ rank that doesn't require more support than Drifloon, but no combination of Abra + something else can come close to being as threatening as floondig.


Since I spent so much of that hyping floondig, I can't just stop with a single nomination.

Diglett to S

I'll be the first to admit that I didn't actually think Diglett didn't belong in S just a few weeks ago. I remember having a conversation with zf where we both agreed that Diglett potentially deserved a suspect, but I stated that Diglett simply did not fit the definition of an S-rank. My argument was that the amount of support required to use a support Pokemon in Diglett differentiated itself from other S-ranks too much. I've changed my mind simply because I feel that its sheer effectiveness is enough to warrant disregarding its negatives, in large part as a member of a specific core that you could probably guess by now. I would like to stress now that although there are other extremely threatening Diglett cores, most notably shelldig, I do not feel that these are unbearably strong the way floondig is.

Diglett is just as splashable as other S ranked Pokemon.

Diglett synergizes with pretty much everything in some way; almost every Pokemon will appreciate having something gone that Diglett can remove. Shellder loves having Steel-types and Cottonee gone. Timburr appreciates not having to deal with Cottonee, Gothita, Abra, or Larvesta. Drifloon becomes borderline broken without any of its checks. Even something like Tentacool benefits from how Diglett limits Gothita to only trapping one Pokemon. If you're aren't using semi-stall, a type spam, or Gothita, chances are you're using Diglett - and even sometimes when you are running those, Diglett finds its way onto your team. I wouldn't rank it on the same level as Mienfoo, but it's probably around as easy to fit onto a team as Porygon and moreso than Pawniard.

Although Diglett requires more support than other S-ranks, its sheer effectiveness makes up for it.

Diglett certainly requires support. It can't get in safely very easily, so it wants VoltTurn support unless you plan to rely solely on revenge-kills. More importantly, once it gets a KO, it is very easy to force out, so you'll need switch-ins to all sorts of things - Grass-types, Water-types, Fighting-types, and Flying-types to name just some of them. This is where Diglett's ability to synergize with everything comes into play again - it's not really a loss to include a Foongus or Magnemite on the team to support Diglett, because Diglett happens to support them quite well, anyways (traps Gothita/Abra/Fire-types for Foongus, Fire-types/Chinchou for Magnemite). In this way, although Diglett does require support, you aren't really losing much at all by supporting it. And of course, Diglett is an extremely strong Pokemon to begin with, because trapping is super good. It's a bit difficult to compare it to the other S-ranks in this regard, but I think most of us can agree that Diglett tends to be scarier to face than most of the A+ ranked Pokemon (except Drifloon!); its influence is such that even if it doesn't actually end up doing anything in a game, just its presence can change the way your opponent plays.


Please don't let floondig stick around in LC

 

[The Avalanches]

I lay low for a few weeks and now my favourite Pokemon is sincerely being considered for S-rank?

Wowee.

EDIT: Okay, I get the hype now. Hopping on the D-train.

 

[Ninja]

Shouldn't Sandile be ranked? I know it isn't the greatest thing ever, but something like C- doesn't seem like a stretch. Access to SR and Taunt with 17 speed, and Dark/Ground STAB (even thought it doesn't get Knock off) are definitely cool, and Intimidate helps patch up it's below average bulk. Defensively, typing does gives weaknesses to common stuff like Water, Fairy and Fighting, but immunity to Volt Switch and resistance to Rock and Dark help make up for it.

Also has some cool coverage options like Fire Fang, Iron Tail and Stone Edge, and a Scarf set with Moxie could also work, tho I think the support with SR/Taunt is better

 

[ACNT]

Shouldn't Sandile be ranked? I know it isn't the greatest thing ever, but something like C- doesn't seem like a stretch. Access to SR and Taunt with 17 speed, and Dark/Ground STAB (even thought it doesn't get Knock off) are definitely cool, and Intimidate helps patch up it's below average bulk. Defensively, typing does gives weaknesses to common stuff like Water, Fairy and Fighting, but immunity to Volt Switch and resistance to Rock and Dark help make up for it.

Also has some cool coverage options like Fire Fang, Iron Tail and Stone Edge, and a Scarf set with Moxie could also work, tho I think the support with SR/Taunt is better

I agree with this. I used Scarf and fast taunt + Intimidate and both are good. I used this against really decent players and that's cool for an E mon.
I really think that scarf drilbur is not better that scarf sandile (moxie > mold breaker here, STAB dark and better movepool also) but scarf sandile is a bit weak without one moxie boost. Also Scarf Scraggy is usually better if you really want moxie + Dark STAB.

Lead is unexpected. With Intimidate he has a really decent bulk, hits hard with 16 atk and EdgeQuake, is fast with 17 spd, and can taunt, winning against dwebble.
-1 0 Atk Mienfoo Drain Punch vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Sandile: 12-14 (57.1 - 66.6%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
-1 236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Earthquake vs. 0 HP / 76 Def Eviolite Sandile: 9-12 (42.8 - 57.1%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO

Both are decent, and better than E and even D. When I see Wingull at C- (seriously this mon should be ranked at D) and Geodude at C, I think C-/C is really okay for it.

 

[rhydonphilip]

I want to nominate

what ever this is ment to be:
Skorupi has many possitives sadly it can't be optimal in any of them neither all at once.
Type: Bug/Poison, Ability's: Sniper/Battle Armour.
Acces to a max of 17 speed, has 90 base defence aka starts at 15 defence sadly lacks HP(base 40), less effective special defence starting at 12 but that's still good.
Also lacks offencive force only having 50 base attack and an even worse 30 base special attack.
Now the possitive moves: Swords Dance, Agility ,Taunt ,Knock Off, Toxic Spikes and Whirlwind.
Stabs in Poison Jab/Cross Poison/X-Scissor/Pin Missile.
Also some interesting move coverage with Pursuit, Thief, Aqua Tail and Brick Break.
Is it outclassed? Acces to slighty higher attack then Venipede, still effective 17 speed, more use as a fast wall/Lead then wallbreaker however it could still break depending on coverage (so mutch 4MSS), unlike that little worm it has Knock Off, Taunt and Whirlwind allowing it to be a Phazer with Whirl+Toxic Spikes and or a Lead with Taunt + Toxic Spikes.
It's ability's aren't too usefull but i gues they can give some space to work with if you want a slightly gimmicky Sniper + Cross Poison or the answere to it's own gimmick Battle Armour. It's type brings possitives with Bug allowing it to wall Fight and deal with Psychic in Theory,
Poison brings it possitives with offence and walling Fairy, Fight and Grass slightly better, at cost of being useless against Psychic(not that it woudn't have been with pure bugg) and worse against Ground types.
Overall the niches it could have are small, but can still be effecitive(not that anyone would build around a core with a D pokes anyway but k >.>)

I Nominate this to be D rank, I could argue it can do more but i see no reason to hype this for C- rank knowing it just doesn't prove it's worth as far as i am awair of it.

PS: Acupressure is legit.

Sandile
Sandile has acces to Stone Edge, Earthquake, Pursuit/Crunch ,Taunt and Stealth Rock.
Notable moves also include Aqua Tail and Fire Fang.
Speed of max 17, Attack of 16 (no nature) and enough bulk to survive Timburrs Mach Punch or Croagunks Vaccume Wave with LO/Scarf
It's niche is known having Scarf use with Moxie, however i did rater include Life Orb even if it takes 2 HP every time it uses it (sad), but this allowes it to 2HKO all fight types including Timburr, Pancham (25-14), Scraggy, Mienfoo(Curse you scarfed Mienfoo).
It's ability's give it a slight space to work with having the not so usefull Intimidate only hindering it from checking Pawniard more effectively, the other ability Moxie however makes it amazing with Pursuit allowing it to get more then just a Kill, infact even threatening another poke to take Heavy damage.
Unlike the Scorpion noted above this one doesn't suffer as mutch from it's moveslots or offence as it should most effectively run any of the 5 basic moves noted above or if you want to run Scarf you aren't likely to run Taunt or Stealth Rocks on it(yea ok maby the last for those that are kings in bluffing it to not be Scarfed)
It's checks are limited and it should be noted that it's niche in Pursuit Trapping can be put to great use, (it should be noted that it needs Crunch in order to KO Gothita, Pumpkaboo and Frillish, or LO Pursuit but do note Gothita wouldn't mind that with Scarfed Energie Ball)

I want people to argue how high it should be up as i did infact rate it for C- or even C Mid. (but i can't decide anything anymore as examinations drain life and sleep away from my soul X_X)

Buizel
There is allot ot note about buizel but only few parts shine out.
While yes it's outclassed as a Bulk Up passer making Baton Pass seem useless, however even including that there is another use to it.
It's second niche the one in Water Veil + 19 Speed + 16 Attack + LO allowing it to effectively work as a physical fast water type.
Now this second niche while very small and practicaly no notable it sees use.
How about: Stab Priority, Immune to Burn, Momentum with Baton Pass, 19 Speed, proper enough offence to work with LO:

Hide

236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Brick Break vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Brick Break vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 13-16 (50 - 61.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-13 (37.5 - 54.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 0 HP / 236 Def Eviolite Ponyta: 18-26 (85.7 - 123.8%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Larvesta: 18-26 (78.2 - 113%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 68 HP / 156+ Def Eviolite Chespin: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 13-16 (52 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 13-16 (59 - 72.7%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Ice Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 21-26 (100 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Brick Break vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO
(10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 10, 13)
Hazards supported:
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Brick Break vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 10-13 (45.4 - 59%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after 1 layer of Spikes
236 Atk Life Orb Buizel Aqua Tail vs. 156 HP / 100 Def Eviolite Pancham: 9-13 (36 - 52%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Yea sure these calcs may seem amazing however do note this is LO, compleatly walled by any Water Type, Croagunk and the priority of Aqua Jet is just weak not even KOing Scarfed Drilbur with Stealth Rocks up.
Have i also noted it kinda has problems with 4 Moves having to sacrifice a Coverage move or Aqua Jet for Baton Pass.

This is a stretch even for D, ... but i want to nominate it anyway :v.

anyway. Do people just skip lower rankings like this or ? I named all reasoning as properly as it should and it's still ignored :l
On subject of Intimidate it's rater unfortunat to check Pawn as you did boost it to +1 putting you in danger for a strong priority attack if you are somewhat worn down already.

 

[sam-testings]

I would like to point out that Diglett also gets memento, which is huge for its speed tier. Literally nothing viable outspeeds Diglett which lets it get off at least one memento a game if you are running the standard focus sash set. With Arena Trap the opponent is forced to be useless for a turn and you can set up whatever the hell you want. This makes a lot of stuff that is generally considered mediocre suddenly become good. Does your Snivy need that one turn to leaf storm to sweep? Diglett got your back! Does your Scraggy need to Dragon Dance up to slaughter the enemy team? Diglett is there for you! The amount of support this one mon brings is insane and checks a decent amount of common mons. I feel its move to S rank would not be completely unwarranted with the amount of work it puts in.

 

[nLTk]

Mantyke C -> B-

After playing 30 games with a Rest-Talk Mantyke, I would argue that it's undervalued at C rank. I'm not saying that it's an absolute monster by any stretch, but I think that its typing and defenses allow it to be a viable switch into to a lot of the more powerful mons in LC (Mienfoo, Pawniard). I understand that C-list pokemon are generally have more of a "niche" use, but I think that Mantyke's base defense and sp. defense stats of 50 & 120 before eviolite push it beyond a mere "niche" use in the current meta. Welcome to other arguments/points that I haven't noticed in my limited experience in the tier.

 

[Merritt]

Mantyke C -> B-

After playing 30 games with a Rest-Talk Mantyke, I would argue that it's undervalued at C rank. I'm not saying that it's an absolute monster by any stretch, but I think that its typing and defenses allow it to be a viable switch into to a lot of the more powerful mons in LC (Mienfoo, Pawniard). I understand that C-list pokemon are generally have more of a "niche" use, but I think that Mantyke's base defense and sp. defense stats of 50 & 120 before eviolite push it beyond a mere "niche" use in the current meta. Welcome to other arguments/points that I haven't noticed in my limited experience in the tier.

Mantyke doesn't make a good switch into Pawniard, as it essentially relies completely on a scald burn in order to neuter Pawniard.
156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 156 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mantyke: 9-12 (39.1 - 52.1%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO
Obviously if rocks are up this is a guaranteed 2HKO. What Mantyke can do is fire off one scald, before being forced to rest, at which point it has to pray for good sleep talks in order to burn Pawniard. Sure, scald can burn but this doesn't mean every Pokemon who can take two knock offs and use scald is a good switch into Pawniard.

Mienfoo is less of an issue, although the possibility of Stone Edge is certainly a problem, but it can't really stop Mienfoo from just U-turning on it and switching to something that Mantyke can't threaten, which is actually a whole lot of things. Unlike most successful resttalkers, it just flat out lacks enough offensive pressure outside of scald burns to really prevent things from switching in, which aren't reliable. While it has fantastic special defense, its physical defense really isn't all too great, and considering that two of the most prominent special attackers are Magnemite and Chinchou (who Manytke doesn't like for obvious reasons) it's not an easy wall to fit on most teams. It also mandates hazard removal support, which is another point against it. I might be able to see it moving up to C+ with Frillish but it doesn't fit in B- with what is a surprising number of defensive mons. I could also see it moving down to C- to be honest, there's a lot of competition in the role of resttalk water type.

C also isn't really that "niche", it's for things that have flaws that hold them back in many cases. Mantyke does fit that, and "niche" isn't even a bad term, it's just a word for a position or role. Mantyke doesn't fit on a whole lot of teams, it does require a decent amount of building around. It's not like C is a bad ranking either, it's above close to 2/3rds of the meta.

 

[Darkamber8828]

B-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon who are great in the LC metagame. These Pokemon have more notable flaws than of those above it that affects how they function in the tier. Their positive traits still outshine their negatives, but they require a bit more team support to bring out their full potential. Their niches are often slightly smaller than those that are in A and S rank, which leads them to face some competition for a teamslot.

C-Rank
Reserved for Pokemon that have notable niches in the LC metagame, but have just as notable flaws that prevent them from being effective. Pokemon in the C tier often require significant support to be effective in LC. C rank Pokemon tend to find themselves outclassed by Pokemon in the above tiers, and face a lot of competition for a team slot.

Nominating Bellsprout from B+ to C+ at least

Bellsprout is completely worthless without Heat Rock Vulpix. It's slow, fragile, and Weather and Solarbeam are completely garbage without Sun. And Heat Rocket Vulpix is pretty useless outside of sun setting, without Eviolite it can't tank and uninvested Flamethrower does nothing.

The amount of support required to make Bellsprout good sounds like it'd fit in C-rank. It's not a mon like Cottonee or Croagunk that can be slapped on any team.

and now



Nominating Deerling from C- to B-

It has 18 Speed and LO STAB Return actually does ridiculous amounts of damage. Seed Bomb, Wild Charge, and Jump Kick provide nearly perfect coverage except for Pumpkaboo(?) and with prediction it can 2HKO a sizable amount of the tier once it gets in. The only things that really wall it are Pumpkaoo and Honedge and they are both weak to Pursuit. This isn't even factoring in that it outspeeds Scarf Diglett and +2 Smashers under Sun, because Deerling is the only thing with Chlorophyll where Chlorophyll is just a nice little plus instead of something that is completely necessary, which means you can use a Vulpix set without Heat Rock (like Scarf). Or just don't run Vulpix, Sap Sipper is a great way to check Snivy. 60/50/50 defenses aren't great but it can take weaker neutral STAB attacks and random non-Fletchling priority, even with LO.

It competes with Snivy as a fast offensive Grass mon, but actually having coverage outside of Hidden Power and being able to outspeed key threats like Drifloon, Mienfoo, Chinchou, Snivy, and Houndour are more than enough reason to move it up from the tier with Togepi in it.

Hide

+1 196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Snivy: 17-21 (80.9 - 100%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 19-23 (90.4 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

240 SpA Snivy Hidden Power Fire vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Deerling: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gastly: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 13-18 (50 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

(Porygon has 26 HP, unless both times are min roll, Return + Jump Kick kills)


196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-13 (37.5 - 54.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO

116 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Deerling: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


232+ SpA Chinchou Ice Beam vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Deerling: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Wild Charge vs. 36 HP / 85 Def Drifloon: 23-29 (88.4 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 9-13 (33.3 - 48.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

 

[Merritt]

Nominating Bellsprout from B+ to C+ at least

Bellsprout is completely worthless without Heat Rock Vulpix. It's slow, fragile, and Weather and Solarbeam are completely garbage without Sun. And Heat Rocket Vulpix is pretty useless outside of sun setting, without Eviolite it can't tank and uninvested Flamethrower does nothing.

The amount of support required to make Bellsprout good sounds like it'd fit in C-rank. It's not a mon like Cottonee or Croagunk that can be slapped on any team.

So, I'll address this. First off, I had a little rant about this in I think the other thread when we cleared out D rank but I'll summarize it here: basing an argument off the rank definitions is a really terrible reason to decide a ranking. As Respected Player Mambo has pointed out, there's very few things in Little Cup that are actually directly outclassed or have no worthy role, so if we work entirely off rankings we should have a good 70+ mons in D rank. Which is absurd. The rank definitions are general guidelines to help explain what kind of things reside in that rank generally for people looking at the list without other knowledge. It's an absolutely terrible way to rank something, it's so incredibly subjective.

Now, as for Bellsprout. Sun's not as dominant as it was back in the old days when people called for a sprout suspect, but that doesn't mean that it's still not good. And Bellsprout is half the face of sun. It's devastatingly threatening under sun, can still tear apart teams in it, and there really aren't that many changes that have hurt it - if anything I'm surprised it hasn't started to resurge with variations on Madoka Sun. The eviolite set takes hits surprisingly well, surviving hits up to LO Adamant Pawn's knock off, while still having a threatening level of power that can easily clean weakened teams. The Life Orb set trades a lot of the survivability for power, but still isn't abra levels of frail, and in exchange becomes very difficult to switch into. It's also got some very problematic last move options, where sucker punch can get surprise KOs on heavily weakened fletch and things trying to KO it after sun is gone, while Sleep Powder can make would-be counters a non-issue. While vullaby's rise in popularity doesn't help sprout, meta shifts haven't been unkind to the plant.

The argument you presented is pretty bad though. Here, I'll insert another B+ ranked sweeper, Zigzagoon.

"Zigzagoon is completely worthless without heavy team support. It's slow, fragile, and is weak without setting up Belly Drum. And the best form of support for it, Memento, is pretty unfortunate since it requires saccing a Pokemon which you lose for the rest of the match.

The amount of support required to make Zigzagoon good sounds like it'd fit in C- rank. (Also, what, it's crazy to suggest dropping Bellsprout 5 subranks, below Bulbasaur unless that was an honest typo) It's not a mon like Cottonee or Croagunk that can be slapped on any team. (Incidentally neither of these are overly splashable) Zigzagoon requires that you build a team around it from the start."

I don't particularly want to comment on Deerling, but you're also suggesting a rank change that's kind of too drastic, which makes me more inclined to say that it's unreasonable. Also you mention things like Scarf Diglett, which kind of destroys the credibility of the argument. You also try to make some kind of snide last jab at Bellsprout by saying that Deerling is better under sun or something, but Deerling is nowhere near as threatening. I could agree with a small rise, maybe to C or C+, but not B-.

 

[Shrug]

Bellsprout is completely worthless without Heat Rock Vulpix. It's slow, fragile, and Weather and Solarbeam are completely garbage without Sun. And Heat Rocket Vulpix is pretty useless outside of sun setting, without Eviolite it can't tank and uninvested Flamethrower does nothing.

The amount of support required to make Bellsprout good sounds like it'd fit in C-rank. It's not a mon like Cottonee or Croagunk that can be slapped on any team.

http://www.smogon.com/forums/threads/shine-bright-like-a-vulpix.3532658/

the above is the reason bellsprout sits at B+ right now - it's perhaps the most successful lc team of that meta made by one of the strongest players. it pretty convincingly proved just how devastating Sprout under sun can be, having nearly no counters and checks removed fairly easily through team support. however, sun is kinda a known quantity - any other sun team used in a serious capacity is essentially lucysun with a few aesthetic (and honestly, probably detrimental) alterations - and that quantity has declined in the recent metagame. paradoxically for a squad lacking missy, it has seemed to decline in effectiveness out of the missy meta; given i didnt play in that era, i can only make conjecture, but i suppose it's something about missy forcing team-structures conducive to effective Bellsprout sweeps. but still, the team is quite strong. i can see a drop to solid B rank (and probably a drop for vulpix aswell) but C+ is a little drastic in my view

 

[Santa Reuniclause]

Goddamnit, now everyone's talking about Bellsprout and not Deerling again ;_;

Anyway, I will also probably pointlessly nominate Deerling from C- to C+.

While I don't think it's as good as Snivy or SunSprout, it distinguishes itself from these two Mons by having a metric fuck-ton of good coverage, and by not needing the sun, respectively. It's attack stat- while not excellent- does the job when combined with LO and the ability to net super-effective hits against lots of things.

What's more, it's three ability- as I've already stated- are all very handy. In particular, I'm starting to like Serene Grace bounce more and more, which let's it paralyse fucking everything, and sort-of do OK-ish against Pumpkaboo, in a pinch.

Sap Sipper has already been talked about a fair bit (Blah Blah beats Snivy Blah Blah,) and Chlorophyll can actually be used to beat other sun-teams, kinda.

Plus, 18 speed is really handy, in particular allowing it to outspeed Drilbur and a host of other 17 speeders.

DarkAmber8828 already put a heap of calcs in, but here's one more for what it's worth. I should probably just give up on this and let it stay in C-, but W/E.

196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Wild Charge vs. 76 HP / 156 Def Archen: 21-26 (91.3 - 113%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock (Also a 68.8% chance to OHKO without them.)


EDIT: How do I do spoiler tags? It's not on the bar at the top for some reason :/

 

[tcr]

uh I'd also like to nominate Deerling to be bumped up if possible. It's probably one of the best Snivy checks in the game right now, as it stops the one thing Snivy wants to do (Leaf Storm). It has some pretty cool sets, you can run a successful Scarf set, BJ Sap Sipper is probably the best Snivy counter that is still pretty offensive. I don't personally like Chlorophyll sets but that's just me. I also don't really like Life Orb sets. I could definitely see it moving up a bit

 

[Darkamber8828]

Zigzagoon isn't worthless without team support because it has STAB Extremespeed to revenge stuff, while Bellsprout without sun only has 13/14 speed and Sludge Bomb / uninvested Sucker Punch. Also the support pokemon it requires (Diglett, Stunky, Pawniard, Houndour, Cottonee) have many useful functions outside of their role as Zigzagoon-supporters, unlike Heat Rock Vulpix.

I didn't consider that Bellsprout could run Eviolite, the few I've seen are all Life Orb. I actually like that a lot better since it isn't obliterated by anything it can't OHKO after it sleeps something.

Scarf Diglett is a roundabout way of saying "all scarfers."

Deerling isn't better than Bellsprout in sun, but the reason I believe it should be bumped is that it requires less / no support to function as a fast offensive Grass pokemon that can 2HKO most of the tier, while Bellsprout becomes sac bait after sun turns are stalled or Vulpix gets killed.

Isn't that RMT from nine months ago? I feel like the recent surge in popularity of Diglett and birds may be a factor in why Sun is less common than it used to be.

I've only been getting back into the game recently so I will defer to the judgment of stronger players, but it definitely seems to me that the positions of these two things should be reevaluated.

 

[sam-testings]

If Bellsprout is going to drop, it should not be by that much. Bellsprout is still quite scary and has coverage for pretty much everything with solar beam/sludge bomb/weather ball. These three moves make it a dominant threat and it can sweep entire unprepared teams. The reason it is so high right now is because nearly every team has to have an answer to Bellsprout or risk getting swept and that means a spdef wall or a bird. While sun is not as strong now it is still a defining force in LC and you should always be aware of it.

Calcs on Bellsprout cuz there are none yet


With evio

Hide

196+ SpA Bellsprout Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 36 SpD Eviolite Mienfoo: 13-16 (61.9 - 76.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Pawniard in Sun: 22-26 (104.7 - 123.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 80 SpD Gastly in Sun: 17-21 (89.4 - 110.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Magnemite in Sun: 32-38 (168.4 - 200%) -- guaranteed OHKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Solar Beam vs. 0 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Timburr: 10-13 (41.6 - 54.1%) -- 56.3% chance to 2HKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Solar Beam vs. 76 HP / 0 SpD Archen: 19-24 (82.6 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Solar Beam vs. 236 HP / 0 SpD Eviolite Porygon: 10-13 (38.4 - 50%) -- 0.4% chance to 2HKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 0 HP / 0- SpD Drifloon in Sun: 21-25 (84 - 100%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Deerling in Sun: 34-42 (147.8 - 182.6%) -- guaranteed OHKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 124 HP / 160 SpD Eviolite Foongus in Sun: 20-24 (80 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 116 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Vullaby in Sun: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- guaranteed 3HKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Sludge Bomb vs. 36 HP / 116 SpD Snubbull: 30-36 (130.4 - 156.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Sludge Bomb vs. 212 HP / 76 SpD Eviolite Spritzee: 14-20 (51.8 - 74%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

196+ SpA Bellsprout Weather Ball (100 BP Fire) vs. 84 HP / 148+ SpD Eviolite Ferroseed in Sun: 32-40 (145.4 - 181.8%) -- guaranteed OHKO

With LO just imagine all those nearly ohko to garunteed ohko and those nearly 2hko to actual 2hko. As you can see with a small bit of support and knock off spam Bellsprout can and will sweep the unexpected team. When teambuilding you must always remember to have a check for sun. If it is going to drop, it should be to B at the least or no drop at all.

 

[tazz]

While I agree that a move to C+ is a bit much, bellsprout definitely is out of place in B+ and would fit more in B/B-. While bellsprout is amazing under sun, it is good then and only then. It is too dependent on this support from vulpix, who is SR weak and frail, and can only set up 8 turns of sun (which sounds like a lot, but to get non eviolite bellsprout in without having to let something die first is actually quite challenging). Additionally, once the first part of the sun core, vulpix, can easily function on its own while bellsprout turns into death fodder. It's a great sweeper, but just too dependent to be in B+.

 

[ShotsLikeSwish]

I agree with Bell sprout being B/B-. Its very predictable, and sun teams are too weak to fletchling.

Secondly, I really am tired of playing vs the core of driftloon and diglett. For the reasons levi and madoka stated they are too good in the metagame; the removal of diglett would open up a myriad of different playstyles for the metagame. Without a doubt, they should be in S rank at the least, if not banned. There really should be a suspect test soon.

Thirdly, I nominate rufflet to be B/B+. Frankly, it's embarrassing to see that rufflet is only C-. It has access to superpower to stop mons that would normally wall flyng mons like ferro, bulk up and roost provide a win condition and great survivability, and aerial ace hits hard with the ability rustle.

 

[Merritt]

While I agree that a move to C+ is a bit much, bellsprout definitely is out of place in B+ and would fit more in B/B-. While bellsprout is amazing under sun, it is good then and only then. It is too dependent on this support from vulpix, who is SR weak and frail, and can only set up 8 turns of sun (which sounds like a lot, but to get non eviolite bellsprout in without having to let something die first is actually quite challenging). Additionally, once the first part of the sun core, vulpix, can easily function on its own while bellsprout turns into death fodder. It's a great sweeper, but just too dependent to be in B+.

You're kind of really overstating Bellsprout's "uselessness" outside of sun. Sure, it's nowhere near as threatening and honestly kind of bad, but even without sun it can still get KOs on slower weakened things like Porygon, Timburr, Spritzee, and Snubbull. I'd never say it's good outside of sun, it's really not, but it's absolutely more useful than just death fodder.

Another piece of why Bellsprout is B+ is because while it relies on sun, it's just so damn threatening under it. There are almost no safe switch ins, so while it needs sun to be up to really tear through teams, it's not exactly onerous support. Generally it's not too hard to get sun up at least twice, even if the second time is when you sacrifice Vulpix, so Bellsprout gets around 14 turns of sun to smash through the opponent's team. I've seen full battles that lasted 14 turns, and unlike most sweepers Bellsprout doesn't need to worry about taking a hit while setting up.

I agree with Bell sprout being B/B-. Its very predictable, and sun teams are too weak to fletchling.

If you're using sun, you should make sure that you recognize that Fletchling can be an issue and add some of the many many counters available. Sun teams can have issues with Fletchling, yes, but considering that most well built sun teams will have two answers like Archen and Pawniard that shouldn't be enough to drop Bellsprout on its own.

Maybe Sprout could move to B, but it's absolutely better than B-.

 

[ACNT]

Nominating Bellsprout from B+ to C+ at least

Bellsprout is completely worthless without Heat Rock Vulpix. It's slow, fragile, and Weather and Solarbeam are completely garbage without Sun. And Heat Rocket Vulpix is pretty useless outside of sun setting, without Eviolite it can't tank and uninvested Flamethrower does nothing.

The amount of support required to make Bellsprout good sounds like it'd fit in C-rank. It's not a mon like Cottonee or Croagunk that can be slapped on any team.

and now



Nominating Deerling from C- to B-

It has 18 Speed and LO STAB Return actually does ridiculous amounts of damage. Seed Bomb, Wild Charge, and Jump Kick provide nearly perfect coverage except for Pumpkaboo(?) and with prediction it can 2HKO a sizable amount of the tier once it gets in. The only things that really wall it are Pumpkaoo and Honedge and they are both weak to Pursuit. This isn't even factoring in that it outspeeds Scarf Diglett and +2 Smashers under Sun, because Deerling is the only thing with Chlorophyll where Chlorophyll is just a nice little plus instead of something that is completely necessary, which means you can use a Vulpix set without Heat Rock (like Scarf). Or just don't run Vulpix, Sap Sipper is a great way to check Snivy. 60/50/50 defenses aren't great but it can take weaker neutral STAB attacks and random non-Fletchling priority, even with LO.

It competes with Snivy as a fast offensive Grass mon, but actually having coverage outside of Hidden Power and being able to outspeed key threats like Drifloon, Mienfoo, Chinchou, Snivy, and Houndour are more than enough reason to move it up from the tier with Togepi in it.

Hide

+1 196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Eviolite Snivy: 17-21 (80.9 - 100%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Snivy: 19-23 (90.4 - 109.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

240 SpA Snivy Hidden Power Fire vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Deerling: 12-16 (52.1 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock


196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 9-13 (42.8 - 61.9%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Wild Charge vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Gastly: 14-18 (73.6 - 94.7%) -- 50% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 9-13 (34.6 - 50%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO
(9, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 12, 13)

196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Jump Kick vs. 236 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Porygon: 13-18 (50 - 69.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
(13, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 16, 18)

(Porygon has 26 HP, unless both times are min roll, Return + Jump Kick kills)


196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 0 HP / 156 Def Eviolite Timburr: 9-13 (37.5 - 54.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO

116 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Deerling: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO


232+ SpA Chinchou Ice Beam vs. 36 HP / 0 SpD Deerling: 20-24 (86.9 - 104.3%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO


196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Wild Charge vs. 36 HP / 85 Def Drifloon: 23-29 (88.4 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock


196 Atk Life Orb Deerling Return vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 9-13 (33.3 - 48.1%) -- 87.9% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock

Seriously, C+ Bellsprout are u serious ? Really I think you (really) need to play sun yourself with him, and then argue.
Good sun players(madoka is awesome, and i also play a lot thisplaystyle) will tell u that Bellsrpout is an absolute beast.
Really if you have an occasion to deal with a good sun player using bellsprout, you will see that Bellsprout under sun is even better than B+
The main problem of Bellsprout is the fact that it is easily predictable (you just need to check if Spout is evio or LO), and quite bad w/ sun.
So why it is ranked B+ with two huge faillings ? Because it is very, very, very difficult to resist him

If you don't have Vullab, Munchlax, Hippopotas or even things like Amaura and Snover in your team, you are sure to have a really difficult game. Specially if your opponent is a really good player. Because Spout will sweep "in waves". I mean Bellspout is just a fucking rape, sweeping with a 120 BP STAB move, with Weather Ball 100 BP exploding steels and grass. A perfect neutral coverage. But this is not the worse. Sleep Powder is the thing that makes it a beast.

Supposed "counters"like Porygon are totally unpleased with it. It 2HKOes/3KOes every mon of the meta or almost. So what ? Every sleeping mon is a dead mon
Really, Bellsprout + SR is just...errr, very difficult to handle. One of his best counter, Vullaby, can't even switch-in. And really Bellsprout C+, it is like saying "Sun is a weak playstyle, because BELLSPROUT IS SUN (you have firespam, but deerling/oddish/bulbasaur are not at the same level, really)

C- is absolutely ridiculous, trust me. And lot of support ? Vulpix and a bird counter mainly. Fletchling needs p much things like diglett, often defog or rspin.
Also, mentionning eviolite vulpix and flamethrower vulpix as common things proves you have almost never played sun and probably vulpix too


And i find really pretty amazing to put Deerling before Spout 0_0 ...
Really man, Deerling is weak. 50% chance of OHKO Deerling with LO and SR, with recoil and LO. Yeah Deerling has a good coverage. And... that's all.
Spritzee say "lol man", snubull say "lol man" with intimidate, cottonee take a hit, Pumpkaboo, lol... Thanks to 60 BS pv, Deerling takes 10% by hits, Mach Punch hits ve hard him, Ice Shard too, Sucker Punch too, thanks to LO bulk
I will say Deerling chlorophyll is not even good for C+ (I tested him), like physical sprout.

Sap Sipper Deerling has some good points, Sap Sipper and good speed are probably the best reasons to play it.
This is decent (but you didnt mention BP also) but i did not think it is B-, but here this is more a feeling. C+ is fine

In order to resume this : Bellsprout is horrible to handle when you face a serious player, and annoyous even if the player is not good.
Madoka's utilisation iseven a suffisant reason for B+ imo, and there are others good sun players. A lot of players which are currently saying it is just an average mon, are often players that does not play sun a lot. And even players that are not "beasts" (like me) can easily win good players, if you are not still convinced i can show some replays of me winning better players than me just because bellsprout.
I know Sun is not frquent actually, but it does not means sun is worse than before, it just means there is not a lot of new sun players actually
Please keep it B+

 

[spuds4ever]

Just saying, on the drifloon nomination, I'm pretty sure I invented the sub-recycle set back in April 2015 (don't believe go and look on the last page of the creative movesets thread on page 3), albeit my spread ran notably less speed and more phys bulk to spinblock drilbur reliably. #anartistisneverappreciatedinhisownlifetime smh.

Also, I'm happy to see porygon finally in S, it pretty much does just beat everything that isn't fighting/packs knock off. I do think drifloon is as good as gastly atm but I'm not sure about S. It's really not a splashable mon and provides little in form of defensive utility unlike all the rest of S due to how badly it hates knock off stopping it making use of its best immunity. It isn't as immediately threatening as fletchling but it is a lot harder to deal with due to its much better support movepool.

Disagree with the bellsprout nom. Sleep powder and dual STABs with Weatherball really doesn't have any defensive checks other than munchlax and it still outspeeds every scarfer under 18 speed with a modest nature. Still B+ imo even if it does necessitate vulpix.

Mantyke also needs to be much higher than C-, I think the nomination to B- is fair as it really shines as a rain sweeper in my experience (though rest-talk does also have its uses) mostly because it can bring down grass types like foongus or snivy easily with its secondary STAB and also gets quite a lot of set up opportunities as opposed to many other water-type sweepers like corphish or omanyte.

 

[Iron Caliber]

What other setup opportunities does Mantyke get that Omanyte and Corphish don't? 4x weakness to Volt Switch leaves it vulnerable to every Electric type pivot in the meta, and even if it can OHKO Magnemite under rain, the Sturdy set means it gets a guaranteed KO back. This isn't to say that Corphish and Omanyte aren't weak to Magnemite, but the rock weakness really does it in for Mantyke. Every SturdyJuice mon under the sun (rain?) can KO with Rock Blast. Not to mention SR weakness and low physical bulk means it can't really switch in on anything but Fighting-type moves, and even then, Knock Off hurts it a lot no matter what it's coming from. Running Eviolite patches up the Knock Off problem, but Rock Blast and Volt Switch still OHKO after rocks, and you lose out on damage for Pokemon that you need to hit with coverage moves / not Hydro Pump. Omanyte and Corphish at least have physical bulk, so they can take neutral and resisted hits much better.

 

[spuds4ever]

I could name a few if we're talking about mantyke's set up opportunities, if we're talking eviolite with sub then without rocks, it avoids 2hkoes from the likes of houndour, sash abra, offensive porygon and scarf gastly. Notably as well, it sets easily on foongus provided you don't switch in on spore or it's already slept something (which is a pretty big deal as it is many teams' main water type switchin). As for other things that it sets up much more easily on than phish or omanyte include spritzee (evio modest h-pump in the rain 2hkoes all the time against standard cleric spritz), mienfoo/timburr/croagunk (again the latter is a pretty big advantage as it gives omanyte and phish big problems) and vulpix. I'm not saying that mantyke is as good as either phish or omanyte (indeed, they'd be separated from A- to B- if tyke does promote) but I think I've made it clear as to what its advantages are that neither phish or helix have just in this list of set up opportunities.

 

[Iron Caliber]

Thanks for giving those examples. I guess I kind of underestimated Mantyke's special bulk. Being able to beat up Croagunk easily is definitely a plus, but I'm pretty shaky still on Timburr and Mienfoo, as switching into a Knock Off can mean big trouble. Spritzee and Porygon are good examples, too, provided you don't switch into T-wave on the latter. My main point, again, though, is SturdyJuicers with Rock Blast. Dwebble, Onix, even Shellder, which doesn't need Sturdy to take a hit, can OHKO with Rock Blast without sub, and even have a chance to with a sub already up (Shellder obviously OHKOs no matter what). Bringing up a sub set opens up a whole new can of worms, though: who sets up rain? Rain setters in LC are generally pretty low in viability as well, and, unlike Vulpix and Bellsprout(had to tie this in somehow), the existence of a core with Mantyke and [rain mon] doesn't make either of them more viable. In the case of Mantyke, Mantyke would need to be viable enough to carry a weather setter with it if it plans on using a sub set. I just can't see a world where a B- Mantyke can work by manually setting its own rain if it needs sub to not be immediately revenge killed.

 

[spuds4ever]

I see what you're saying but I think the problem of sturdy juice carries for nearly any sweeper in the tier, it just implies that you need hazard support to sweep and endure magnemite is a pain for any sweeper that's slower than it or doesn't carry knock off until it burns its berry juice (omanyte and corphish also fall into these categories). In some ways, I think mantyke is less vulnerable then phish and omanyte to counter-sweeping measures because abra can't hurt it unless it's running t-bolt (which I haven't seen since the murkrow era tbh). Stuff like shellder is annoying but it's nearly usually OHKOed after two rocks switchins by a hydro pump in the rain even if both mons are running evio. It's quite a simple problem where the solution is hazards which is a basic requirement for most sweeps.

Substitute is more or less an alternative to HP grass in the last slot in that it absorbs chinch's volt switch, dodges sucker punch, can be used to set up on status users like foongus or bulky porygon. It's not an essential move but it widens opportunities to set up/continue to sweep in specific situations and I've found helps facilitate a sweep as opposed to making it more difficult to set up the rain. I think you may have thought that I was implying that it should expect to get a sub up every time it tries to sweep which was not what I intended to convene.

 

[ThePlotTwist]

Nominating Gastly from A+ ---> A

While there is no doubt that Gastly is one of the best mons in LC, I feel like A+ is a bit much. Gastly is unfortunately weak to the most spammed move in LC. Knock-off. Almost all mons that utilize knock off ohko gastly in one hit due to his crappy defenses. You could run focus sash (which is viable but barely) but then you are left with less power or less speed and an item that is easliy broken by hazards and faster or bulkier pokemon, so your gastly is about as helpful toward your team as Trump is going to be to America. Also if you are going to run focus sash, run it on abra who has better speed and special attack than gastly, equivalent defenses (not that that matters they both suck), and most importantly, doesnt take damage from hazards thanks to wonder guard.

Gastly also is beaten 1v1 by many of the other top pokemon in lc or most mons with knock off including mienfoo (eviolite or cs), porygon, abra, fletchling, drilbur, ponyta, vullaby, skrelp, croagunk, dwebble, larvesta, and elekid. Also other pokemon like scraggy or pawniard can win if a certain move is not being run.

Gastly is also vulnerable to sucker punch which can let him be beat by mons such as diglett and pawniard, but many gastly sets run substitute which can easily nullify that weakness if used properly, but it is still a weakness worth mentioning.

So lets breakdown the 2 most popular gastly sets. Choice scarf and life orb. Choice scarf gastly is most likely the fastest pokemon you will ever see in the metagame. This can be a big help to your team because this lets gastly beat alot of the mons mentioned above like elekid, ponyta, and certain abra sets. But this set still doesn't let gastly beat eviolite mienfoo, the most used mon in LC. Also after gastly gets locked into a move, it is very easy for your opponent to switch into a mon that can defeat gastly on the very next turn, especially when locked into the commenly resisted sludge bomb.

Considered to be the best gastly set, sub/destiny bond+life orb can be very dangerous if used correctly. ohkoing pawniard if running hp fighting and has a chance to ohko bulky mienfoo with dazziling gleam is no laughing matter. Also its a very good check to fairy types. All those strenghts however, don't make him invincible. Far from it in fact. Even with all that power, he loses speed compared to the CS set. This allows other scarfers like mienfoo, larvesta, magnemite and drilbur to outspeed and ohko gastly. with his low defenses (30 def, 35 spdef) let gastly be killed by neutral moves from strong pokemon like larvesta, vullaby (brave bird), and skrelp.

All in all gastly is a very good pokemon but is frankly overrated and doesnt deserve the A+ ranking that has been given to him. He is just too defensivly weak in a metagame where knock off is everywhere.


This was my first post so please try to be respectful when critiquing. I understand that many of you will have different opinions and I look forward to hearing your arguments of why gastly should stay. Thanks for reading.