Lower Tiers LC Viability Rankings 2.0

[Bughouse]

How is Wooper not on this?

 

[Merritt]

Wooper is really bad, it has basically nothing that it can do that another Pokemon doesn't do better or what it can do is ineffective. Unaware sets fall to almost every sweeper regardless, and while the Water Absorb set is kinda cuteish for countering Chinchou that's nowhere near enough of a niche for it to be ranked when there's so many alternatives. Overall it just fails to do anything more than stand in your opponent's way for a short time before it ends up falling without doing much.

What do you think makes it deserving of being ranked?

 

[Bughouse]

The fact that I have used it plenty before with pretty good success. The fact that Water Absorb Wooper totally bones Chinchou, Magnemite, and Skrelp which are A+, A, and A-. The fact that it can punish these forced switches with Scald. The fact that you can't set up on it because of Yawn. The fact that it's also useful against other threats like Carvanha, Archen, Drilbur, Ponyta, Corphish, Onix, Omanyte, Staryu, Dwebble, Tirtouga, Elekid... I could go on.

It has a definitive niche and is at worst C+. I even prefer it to numerous mons in B-.

 

[rhydonphilip]

The fact that I have used it plenty before with pretty good success. The fact that Water Absorb Wooper totally bones Chinchou, Magnemite, and Skrelp which are A+, A, and A-. The fact that it can punish these forced switches with Scald. The fact that you can't set up on it because of Yawn. The fact that it's also useful against other threats like Carvanha, Archen, Drilbur, Ponyta, Corphish, Onix, Omanyte, Staryu, Dwebble, Tirtouga, Elekid... I could go on.

It has a definitive niche and is at worst C+. I even prefer it to numerous mons in B-.

Idk how in any way this poke did apply to C+, literally just take a look at C mid and you did see pokemon that can do notably more offencively then Wooper. On the defencive department the majority of pokemon that tend to do simalairly are in the C+/B- group like Lileep/Chespin however these pokemon offen have more going for it then just walling capasity. Take for instence the ability to set up hazards efficiently.

Now just the list you named Carvana can 2HKO with Crunch or run the Special set so idk how in any way it's an answere as EQ needs more then just SR + Life Orb recoil to 1HKO.
Elekid can run HP Grass to not be walled ,though I can say people don't always run it as HP Ground allong side few other moves are also reasonable.
All the other pokemon it does effectively wall and on a side note: I did see why this thing is good for how the meta seems on a defencive team...
You did raise a good point for a mon that should be ranked but not C+.

 

[MetaGamer14]

I'd say make Snivy A -> A+

Reasons:

~Snivy can use Glare and paralyze prominent threats like Pawniard, Meinfoo, other mons that rely on Speed.

~ It can be used as a Late-Game Sweeper since Contrary + Leaf Storm is a thing (and trust me, I swept someones team with Contrary Snivy when I was about to lose. Thus making it kill foes like Diglett.

~ A great coverage move by in the name of HP Ground can kill foes that are weak to it like Poison, Electric, Fire, and Steel types. Many of which can be OHKO'd or 2HKO'd upon a Leaf Storm Boost with HP Ground.

~ It has good recovery like Sythensis which will make Pawniard's move for a Sucker Punch useless and other Sucker Punch users.

~ Hope this stirs up debate for Snivy and hopefully making it A+

TYVM if u reply to this

 

[ACNT]

Cranidos for B+

It probably looks like a strange nomination but I'll explain
Cranidos is a fucking beast with 125 BP atk, who is insane, but has notable faillings such as his fragility ans his weakness to notable priorities. Also it is quite slow.

I'll talk about LO Sheer Force Cranidos under SWeb which is imo the best. Rock Polish is hard to set-up and the 4th move really misses. Scarf is not strong enough imo and block Cranidos on one move, which is really sad with his movepool. Sword Dancer is imo useless because LO + high attack stat is enough to OHKO nearly everything.

I/ Cranidos is nearly impossible to counter

I played myself LO SF Adamant Cranidos, and here are some calcs which are...scaring

Without Rocks

236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 0 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Mienfoo: 23-29 (109.5 - 138%) -- guaranteed OHKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Superpower vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 23-29 (88.4 - 111.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Superpower vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 21-26 (95.4 - 118.1%) -- 68.8% chance to OHKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%) -- 93.8% chance to 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Crunch vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 23-29 (92 - 116%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 23-29 (92 - 116%) -- 87.5% chance to OHKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Superpower vs. 196 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Lickitung: 23-29 (82.1 - 103.5%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Superpower vs. 228 HP / 140 Def Eviolite Lileep: 23-29 (88.4 - 111.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 13-17 (59 - 77.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 124 HP / 160+ Def Eviolite Foongus: 23-29 (92 - 116%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Crunch vs. 116 HP / 236+ Def Eviolite Slowpoke: 18-23 (66.6 - 85.1%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 132 HP / 132 Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 8.2% chance to 2HKO

With Rocks
236+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Superpower vs. 236 HP / 196 Def Eviolite Porygon: 23-29 (88.4 - 111.5%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Superpower vs. 84 HP / 188 Def Eviolite Ferroseed: 21-26 (95.4 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Life Orb Cranidos Superpower vs. 196 HP / 76+ Def Eviolite Lickitung: 23-29 (82.1 - 103.5%) -- 62.5% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 76 HP / 212+ Def Chinchou: 23-29 (92 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Rock Slide vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 13-17 (48.1 - 62.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Zen Headbutt vs. 132 HP / 132 Def Eviolite Hippopotas: 10-13 (40 - 52%) -- 47.3% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Crunch vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 23-29 (92 - 116%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock

And tbh I find even better to slash Iron Head over Crunch (Pumpkaboo is not to common, and Honedge is not sure to be OHKOed even after SR and has a priority)
With Iron Head, this is even worse for walls such as fairies :

236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Iron Head vs. 212 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Spritzee: 21-26 (77.7 - 96.2%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Iron Head vs. 116 HP / 196+ Def Eviolite Cottonee: 21-26 (95.4 - 118.1%) -- guaranteed OHKO after Stealth Rock
-1 236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Iron Head vs. 36 HP / 196 Def Snubbull: 23-29 (100 - 126%) -- guaranteed OHKO
-1 236+ Atk Life Orb Sheer Force Cranidos Iron Head vs. 36 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Snubbull: 18-23 (78.2 - 100%) -- 75% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock

I did not find who are sure to not being OHKOed : Hippopotas, Spritzee / Snubbull /Cottonee (if not Iron Head/Tail), Honedge / Pumpkaboo (if not Crunch), Evio Snivy (if not Fire Punch), Waters (if no Thunder Punch) and each eviolited thing with a nice natural bulk and able to take neutral hits from Cranidos. It is like 2/3 "solid checks" (Hippopotas + SR Tirtouga) and things that can check it if Cranidos has not the good move. This is a very, very huge threat to handle that has litterally no counters actually (Even Hippopotas can be KOed with shitty gimmicks such as Ice Beam)

His offensive potential is worth an A rank imo.

II/ Cranidos is not that frail


I will not say switch Cranidos on a Scald or a Drain Punch is good obviously. But for an evioliteless mon, it is not that weak.
Look at this :

116 Atk Timburr Mach Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Cranidos: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
108+ SpA Croagunk Vacuum Wave vs. 0 HP / 0 SpD Cranidos: 14-20 (60.8 - 86.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
132+ Atk Tirtouga Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Cranidos: 14-18 (60.8 - 78.2%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196+ Atk Honedge Shadow Sneak vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Cranidos: 7-10 (30.4 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
200+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Cranidos: 8-10 (34.7 - 43.4%) -- guaranteed 3HKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Life Orb Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Cranidos: 19-23 (82.6 - 100%) -- 56.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Cranidos: 13-16 (56.5 - 69.5%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock

There is litterally no prority able to OHKO him. Yes, letting Cranidos on Timburr or Croagunk is not a very good idea, but if you have a sweeper like Carvanha with Cranidos in your team, I would bet that your opponent will not have a very good moment. And without the idea of using Cranidos as a lure, Superpower is the only move of Cranidos who makes recoil's damages. It means that if you have killed things like Porygon or Ferroseed before, you still wins.

"Yes but Cranidos is easy to revenge kill even with SWeb"
Not so easy. His speed under web is really decent, even with Adamant. The common things that can RK him are :
- Gastly
- Snivy
- Pawniard (+2 Sucker Punch kills under Sweb)
- Scarf Chou
- Archen and birds with a super-effective move on it (There are not a lot)
- Sash Abra

So it is a really, really nice wincon because most of the time (who plays hippopotas seriously) you did not have to put the opponent's team on the kill range, because there is litterally no real kill range with Cranidos. You just have to eliminate some "rk" and you have won. It frequently arrived that I won at the team preview because the opponent team was unable to rk him.
Yo just have to keep the web and eliminate rkers (Stunky for Abra/Gastly, Diglett for Chou/Pawniard for example).

I really think it deserves better than a simple B rank. It has some nice sets, RP/Scarf are decent, LO is fantastic, BJ Pursuiter is interesting, Lead Mold Breaker is funny, it is a nice mon, probably better than the others B Rank. So I would like to suggest B+

 

[Darkamber8828]

Cranidos's problem isn't just that it's too frail, it's just that its speed severely limits opportunities to switch in vs offense teams.

also

196+ Atk Adaptability Corphish Aqua Jet vs. 0 HP / 36 Def Cranidos: 20-28 (86.9 - 121.7%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO
(20, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 24, 28)

 

[ACNT]

Under sweb, there is not a lot of mons able to rk/outspeed him.
And it is still decent as lure/wallbreaker even in non-web team

basically rock typing is not that bad, it can switch on some birds and fake outs

 

[MetaGamer14]

Well cranidos is limited by its speed which means that only one thing can help it cover from that, and thats Torchic.

Torchic Speed Boost Baton Pass can help Cranidos sweep.

 

[Nineage]

Well cranidos is limited by its speed which means that only one thing can help it cover from that, and thats Torchic.

Torchic Speed Boost Baton Pass can help Cranidos sweep.

Passing a Torchic boost to Crani seems difficult at best. Torchic has trouble reliably passing Substitutes, and given that Torchic lures in Water- and Ground-Types, Cranidos is going to have a difficult time coming in.
Also, Torchic is not the only thing that can get its allies Speed boosts, for the record.

 

[Berks]

I'd like to second the Cran to B+ nomination but for completely different reasons, as the best Cran set by far is Evio RP. From my extensive use of this team I can honestly say that Cranidos' power and bulk are phenomenal and can can be easily augmented further simply by doubling its speed. Rock Polish opens up Cranidos to actually having bulk while maintaining its power as it only needs 13 Speed to outspeed relevant Scarfers, so a single turn of setup makes Cranidos incredibly threatening. Sheer Force max Attack lets Cran make good use of its excellent coverage (gives ZHB a good chance to OHKO Fastfoo and stuff like that) to tear through very slightly weakened teams. Cran is also coolio because it has enough bulk to live a lot of common prio (just about everything bar Phish AJet) and can set up an RP on Fletchling

While other sets like SR Pursuit are pretty cool for their relatively high speed and power, the Evio RP set really pushes Cranidos over the edge. A virtual Life Orb boost to its most common coverage moves, better-than-average bulk with Eviolite, and a Speed doubling move (speed being perhaps the most important individual stat in Little Cup) make Evio RP Cran worthy of B+ by itself, let alone the various other things a Cran can do.

 

[Fiend]

Yeah uh, if something really needs the support of a pokemon, and in such a way that the other pokemon isn't really useful other than supporting with BPing boosts, that's not a solid argument. There are plenty of wallbreakers in both B and B+, and looking at it Cranidos is perhaps the worst of them. Cran gets semi cockblocked by Fighters, which are on most teams, as it is. Bunny is the same with Ghosts but it more strongly can affects the game and importantly has prio to make up for its speed; Aipom struggles with either Steels or Rocks and Flame Body users; Pancham struggles with faster teams and being worn down a little quicker than its teams enjoy; Doduo kills itself with recoil and sr weaknesses but weakens everything for other birds; Elekid takes up the electric type slot and isn't really that strong but it pivots around everything and is a good annoyance to offense. However, Cran has a very limiting speed, and no priority unlike Bunny. Cranidos needs a lot of support in boosting up to 'sweep' much more so than really liked for it to be a viable, variable team option. Cran suffers from hating every priority besides Fletchlings, which is barely not a 2HKO in itself. While Cran can get a kill usually, and doesn't get set up on, it cedes a lot of momentum and many popular pokemon just dump all over it. Cranidos needs perfect prediction in order to actually reliably fuck up teams and be the threat it is on paper, but in reality it either doesn't stay around long enough, gets beaten by too much, or needs a free switch in to do something damaging. Cran can abuse Sticky Webs well too, yes, but I would argue that this very strongly fits into the definition of a B rank pokemon. Lots of team support is needed to counteract its flaws, and even then it still lends itself to being weak to lots of priority on the archetypes it best fits. Cran really doesn't deserve a drop any more than Aipom or like Doduo does at least for the LO or Pursuit sets.

The RP set is kinda weird in how it can be very dangerous, but you need to burn Pawn and remove multiple forms of priority for the sweep to happen. The entire team is used to support Cran, maybe Gastly being an exception. Cran needs support knocking off certain pokemon, which is fine and largely expected. It needs one of the best pokemon in the meta weakened via burn, which is okay because of all the options you have in the team and in the meta. While Cran makes up for in not needing Knock Off very much knock off support (Timburr, Foongus, Spritzee, Porygon, Chinchou), Cran makes up for by needed super specialized support (burning of pawn, removal of multiple priorities (ex: timburr + fletchling), ample set up opportunities (maybe on spritzee, fletch, pawn bait archen, Vullaby)). Where this becomes really important as a distinction is comparing this to other sweepers: Tirt struggles to break through a lot, and therefore needs more support to weaken lots of checks, Oma needs prio removes and maybe memento support, Shellder needs all steels weakened and certain walls knocked off but doesn't really struggle to set up, SD pawn needs mienfoo trapped or super weak and likes most of the faster mons either dead to prevent 50/50s or needs to come in a bit before to support itself, scraggy needs more specialized support in fletch removed and fairies very weakened and scarf 16/17 speeders dead, etc. Cran falls to the bottom-middle end of all this. This also happens to really fit the B rank definition. Cran is much less splashable than the sweepers in B+, and i would say less splashable than cleaners such as Torchic. I reall don't think it should move up.

 

[Get Hype]

Even though Phanpy has these excellent coverage moves (not superpower bc play rough hits darks too + fight and doesnt drop ur atk and def), I still find it to be lacking when it comes to performance. Comparing it to the other ground types (especially those listed) doesn't cement your case in my opinion.

comparisons

Diglett is much faster and supports the team better offensively while having a stronger non-stab priority, even though Diglett is hitting less hard.
Phanpy is bulkier and has a better coverage selection.

Hippopotas supports a whole archetype (sand) as well has having better bulk, power and solid recovery with phazing ability (inlove).
Phanpy has a better coverage selection

Onix is faster, Sturdy Juice for longevity, and cool tools like Taunt to stop other hazard leads it doesnt tie with.
Once again, Phanpy has a better coverage selection. It's technically bulkier since Onix has low HP and SDef while having much higher Def.

Drilbur is faster, can spin and set, and has a usable ability along with offensive pressure.
Phanpy is again, bulkier and has a better coverage selection

One you didnt list was Sandshrew, who has Knock Off, SR and Rapid Spin with somewhat less bulk and more attack power.

Next, Phanpy has 4mss like a mofo without the coverage. I would guess it would be nice to strike like Purrloin trying to Taunt you with Play Rough or hitting a Phish switchin with Seed Bomb but how do you justify using these moves when really you can just click KO and get rid of their item? Then hit them with EQ as they set up / KO you back / Taunt? In most cases the coverage moves hit harder yet it's very situation dependent as well.

Don't get me wrong, Phanpy has some cool tools to utilise like Play Rough to strike common switchins / leads like Purrloin and Mienfoo, however it lacks slots to keep it centric as well as it falls behind other ground types in movesets, abilities and overall stats.

All of those comparisons are correct but that still doesnt mean that phanpy doesnt have a niche as a tank, which is where it greatly differentiates itself from the other ground types in lc. The only other ground type that has phanpys bulk is only matched by hippopotas who lacks many of the key offensive moves that make phanpy a useful offensive pokemon while being bulky enough to be able to switch in to and beat physically offensive threats. Although Phanpy and Hippo have the same base stat total which is a tie for third in lc among ground types (behind onyx and rhyhorn), there movesets differentiate the tasks which they are suited for. If you are looking for a wall then hippo fills that role better due to its recovery but if you want an offensive threat that can still keep an offensive presence then hippo cant compete with phanpy due to phanpys access to knock off and ice shard. Knock off allows it to cripple walls and ice shard gives phanpy priority which is useful in koing weakened threats or giving chip damage to an opposing pokemon before phanpy faints. It may be tempting to think that phanpy is a hippo without sand stream is tempting because of there similar stats and typing but the utility they bring to a team is very different because they fulfill different roles. These offensive capabilities is how phanpy differentiates itself from hippopotas and carves out a niche in the meta which makes at least being listed in the viability rankings in D rank if not C or C-

 

[MetaGamer14]

Croagunk from B+ to -> A-

Here are my reasons

~ Although Gothita can OHKO Croagunk with Psyshock or Psychic, Croagunk has a great coverage move in Knock Off and Sucker Punch. Same thing with Pumpkaboo-Super

~ It can check powerful defensive mons like Ferroseed, if its running Nasty Plot - Vaccum Wave

~ With Dry Skin it can check Omanyte, Corphish, Staryu, Skrelp, and Shellder since they rely on Water STAB and can Vaccum Wave Omanyte to death.

~ Although Vulpix and Houndour destroy Croagunk with there STAB Fire moves, Houndour can be OHKO'd by Vaccum Wave or Gunk Shot and makes the move Bulldoze a great coverage move option for Vulpix and Houndour.

~Also for some pokemon in higher ranks can be killed by Croagunk like Snivy, Chinchou, and Snubull

Those are my reasons on why Croagunk can be in A-.

I would like if you guys commeted on this post and to wherever if Croagunk should move to A-

Thanks alot if you replied and hopefully Croagunk becomes A-.

 

[MetaGamer14]

All of those comparisons are correct but that still doesnt mean that phanpy doesnt have a niche as a tank, which is where it greatly differentiates itself from the other ground types in lc. The only other ground type that has phanpys bulk is only matched by hippopotas who lacks many of the key offensive moves that make phanpy a useful offensive pokemon while being bulky enough to be able to switch in to and beat physically offensive threats. Although Phanpy and Hippo have the same base stat total which is a tie for third in lc among ground types (behind onyx and rhyhorn), there movesets differentiate the tasks which they are suited for. If you are looking for a wall then hippo fills that role better due to its recovery but if you want an offensive threat that can still keep an offensive presence then hippo cant compete with phanpy due to phanpys access to knock off and ice shard. Knock off allows it to cripple walls and ice shard gives phanpy priority which is useful in koing weakened threats or giving chip damage to an opposing pokemon before phanpy faints. It may be tempting to think that phanpy is a hippo without sand stream is tempting because of there similar stats and typing but the utility they bring to a team is very different because they fulfill different roles. These offensive capabilities is how phanpy differentiates itself from hippopotas and carves out a niche in the meta which makes at least being listed in the viability rankings in D rank if not C or C-

Phanphy has Seed Bomb and can destroy many Ground types that try to get in its way.

 

[sam-testings]

The main problem with Croagunk is that it gets killed by both trappers in LC which hinders its use greatly. Of course it is still a great mon to use, but this fact and several other weaknesses prevent it from rising higher. B+ is a good place for it. Also try to avoid double posting.

 

[Krubby]

The main problem with Croagunk is that it gets killed by both trappers in LC which hinders its use greatly. Of course it is still a great mon to use, but this fact and several other weaknesses prevent it from rising higher. B+ is a good place for it. Also try to avoid double posting.

Ehh, as long as you have sucker punch and pivot Croagunk well, you can kill both trappers with sucker punch before too long. Granted, having to choose between running 2 priority moves or limiting croagunk's effectiveness is a toughie, but the existence of diglett and gothita doesn't just immediately mean it's dead the moment one of those gets in on it in the same way a lot of fire types, rock type and fighting types struggle against the trappers.

 

[Cheryl.]

I think Honedge should move up to B rank. It's found itself on a lot of my bulky offense and balanced teams, and for good reason. It offers really nice role compression in being a Fletch, Fairy, and Psychic check (Also counters most Porygon!) that can Pursuit trap them, and also avoids being trapped by Diglett due to it's Ghost typing. It pairs excellently with many Pokemon in the metagame, especially Fighting-types, which appreciates Honedge checking most of their checks and counters, and they in return can absorb Knock Offs for Honedge. It can even act as a decent wallbreaker with Swords Dance, and can lure some of it's checks with moves like Rock Slide as well. Honedge does have some flaws however, such as being weak to Knock Off, not being able to hit Fighting-types very hard, and has a low Special Defense stat and no reliable recovery outside of Berry Juice, which means that it can be worn down easily. But with it's ability to fit on a lot of teams with it's role compression and synergizing excellently with many Pokemon in the current meta, I feel like Honedge is ready to move up a subrank.

 

[Holiday]

alright time for everyone to think I'm crazy. I'll build on these when I get home as well...

Vullaby and Snivy to A+

Both mons currently reside in A, but I think they are both warranting to move up. Offensively, Vullaby has two powerful STABs, decent speed and great bulk, while its also a solid mon on defense (read my LC Spotlight on it TBH :)) Snivy on the other hand is an AMAZING mon for the late game. Contrary Leaf Storm and a Hidden Power is all it really needs, Glare and Synthesis are great for Eviolite sets and BJ gives it survivability if you want to run like Giga Drain idk. Snivy really is something insane and all teams have to plan for it. There's really no reason not to at least think about one of these mons on offensive teams, and both do great work to break bulky offense and balance.

 

[apt-get]

Croagunk from B+ to -> A-

Here are my reasons

~ Although Gothita can OHKO Croagunk with Psyshock or Psychic, Croagunk has a great coverage move in Knock Off and Sucker Punch. Same thing with Pumpkaboo-Super

~ It can check powerful defensive mons like Ferroseed, if its running Nasty Plot - Vaccum Wave

~ With Dry Skin it can check Omanyte, Corphish, Staryu, Skrelp, and Shellder since they rely on Water STAB and can Vaccum Wave Omanyte to death.

- Omanyte KOes BJ with Earth Power or evio after a shell smash.
- Staryu runs Psychic 99% of the time.
- Shellder uses icicle spear as its main move: most of the time, it doesn't even run water STAB. Needless to say, +2 icicle spear KOes.
- Skrelp often runs HP psychic just for gunk.
- Vacuum Wave doesn't KO omanyte before smash (and certainly doesn't OHKO it, even at -1).

~ Although Vulpix and Houndour destroy Croagunk with there STAB Fire moves, Houndour can be OHKO'd by Vaccum Wave or Gunk Shot and makes the move Bulldoze a great coverage move option for Vulpix and Houndour.

Vulpix and Houndour are never going to switch into you, so Bulldoze is not an option. Houndour isn't OHKOed by Vacuum Wave either.

~Also for some pokemon in higher ranks can be killed by Croagunk like Snivy, Chinchou, and Snubull

You're gonna have a tough time switching into snivy or Snubbull, since Leaf Storm + HP Fire or Earthquake easily KO Gunk. Chinchou can also volt switch out, and isn't easily KOed either (Gunk really doesn't have anything apart from Gunk Shot to hit it hard).

Phanphy has Seed Bomb and can destroy many Ground types that try to get in its way.

Seed Bomb hits about as hard as EQ, and the ground types that are going to switch in Phanpy don't really care about any of its attacks anyway (eg. Hippopotas).

 

[sam-testings]

Zigzagoon from B+ to B

With drifloon everywhere and also sash diglett, Zigzagoon just isn't the formidable sweeper it used to be. It also fails to get certain important kills and in general the meta has adapted to it pretty well. I think that most of us here agree that this should probably move down.


Lickitung from B- to B

This mon is actually really good and underused imo. It has great natural bulk and is an amazing special wall. It can pass massive wishes and pairs really well with a lot of other mons. It also get Body Slam for that para chance, and it also gets a bunch of other coverage moves/support moves it could run. With heal bell, knock off, and even curse, this mon can do a lot for a team. Really underrated and underused.

 

[rhydonphilip]

Lickitung from B- to B

This mon is actually really good and underused imo. It has great natural bulk and is an amazing special wall. It can pass massive wishes and pairs really well with a lot of other mons. It also get Body Slam for that para chance, and it also gets a bunch of other coverage moves/support moves it could run. With heal bell, knock off, and even curse, this mon can do a lot for a team. Really underrated and underused.

I did be quoting to Fiend on this one as this drop still has to be made.

: B- to C+; Agree

Hi, let’s move this one down already. To quote myself from earlier in this thread,
''Licki actually has some really cool things it can do, in Counter and SD plus the standard stall-y sets. Tahu was playing around with Licki on full stall recently and ran a set with bloody thunder punch to fully cover Fletchling / Oma / Shellder for example. However, Counter is kinda awful versus Scarf Foo or even just HJK Mienfoo. SD acts are decent lure too, but this makes Licki fail to do anything besides lure or provide a single time check to sweepers. Curse can theoretically work amazingly, but the only plausible reasons to run this over Munchlax is you're playing Missy meta or running Dragon Tail (which is bad). It's all really niche though not inherently bad always, which is why I've been a proponent of it falling down to C+.''

I can talk a long time on why licki shouldn't be listed for most of the ''possitives''. Munchlax is: A better special wall, Body Slam that atleast does damage (lovely 19 attack), Better Curse user and just amazingly seeming for the meta, even though I did still not say Munchlax should move up. Whirlwind while not that used did still be able to take a part away from your ''unique'' ability to phaze. The only things Munchlax doesn't have compaired to you did be better defence, Knock Off and Cleric support.
Heal Bell/Wish/Better defence just makes it have a niche compaired to just Munchlax and even in that reguard it faces competition from Spritzee on the big cleric roll making it mostly limited to heavly bulkier teams like Stall.

 

[Santa Reuniclause]

Skrelp from A- to B+

Skrelps faults are obvious; it's beaten 1 on 1 by every trapper in the tier bar Trapinch (lol), and it's famed ability to nuke things and punch holes just isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Firstly:
236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 36 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Skrelp: 14-20 (63.6 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Skrelp: 18-26 (81.8 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

While it's technically not a guaranteed OHKO for either of them, Skrelp is incredibly easy to whittle down, and Diglett can even technically switch into a Sludge Wave after Skrelp takes some damage (maybe not the best idea tho, unless you have balls of steel.) I really cannot understate how incredibly damaging it is being easily beaten by both of these Pokemon.

What's more, the standard Skrelp set is only 10 speed, getting easily outran by a lot of things that it's meant to beat, like EQ Snubull and Ponyta (Wild Charge Pony is best Pony, no argument). If Skrelp runs hp fire it's walled by Croagunk, and if it runs hp psychic it's walled by Ferroseed.

Overall, Skrelp just isn't what it's made out to be, and while it's still a good pokemon for many teams, A- isn't the place for it- the same tier that has Corphish (the best DD'er in LC), Omanyte, (debatably the best Shell Smasher in LC), and Ferroseed one of the bulkiest and most annoying thing in LC.)

Machop from D to C-

Yeah, this is not going to make me any friends, especially since I considering it for A C or C+. I'll settle for this tho, no need to piss too many people off.

It's often proclaimed by salty players that Pokemon is only 50% skill, and Machop embodies this sentiment.

Put simply, Machops niche is No Guard+STAB Dynamic punch, and it is one of the most frustrating and annoying niches in existence. Confusion needs to not be a thing in gen 7... With a little bit of Pursuit and something to deal with fairys, this little ball of androgynous muscle can potentially be harder to deal with than you might think. Every single turn the opponent hopes to do something, they have to deal with a 50% chance, while being hit with a 150 power attack.

With the standard Scarf set Machop outspeeds pretty much everything, and with a respectable 17 attack, it hits a lot of things surprisingly hard. While I'm not saying this should often be used over Mienfoo or Timburr, but it also doesn't deserve to be lumped in with Ekans and Litleo.

EDIT: I also agree with the Honedge, Zigzagoon, and Snivy noms. Vullaby is overated and Lickitung is garbage tho.

 

[rhydonphilip]

Skrelp from A- to B+ or B

Skrelps faults are obvious; it's beaten 1 on 1 by every trapper in the tier bar Trapinch (lol), and it's famed ability to nuke things and punch holes just isn't all it's cracked up to be.

Firstly:
236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 36 HP / 116 SpD Eviolite Skrelp: 14-20 (63.6 - 90.9%) -- guaranteed 2HKO

236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Earthquake vs. 36 HP / 116 Def Eviolite Skrelp: 18-26 (81.8 - 118.1%) -- 93.8% chance to OHKO

While it's technically not a guaranteed OHKO for either of them, Skrelp is incredibly easy to whittle down, and Diglett can even technically switch into a Sludge Wave after Skrelp takes some damage (maybe not the best idea tho, unless you have balls of steel.) I really cannot understate how incredibly damaging it is being easily beaten by both of these Pokemon.

What's more, the standard Skrelp set is only 10 speed, getting easily outran by a lot of things that it's meant to beat, like EQ Snubull and Ponyta (Wild Charge Pony is best Pony, no argument). If Skrelp runs hp fire it's walled by Croagunk, and if it runs hp psychic it's walled by Ferroseed.

Overall, Skrelp just isn't what it's made out to be, and while it's still a good pokemon for many teams, A- isn't the place for it- the same tier that has Corphish (the best DD'er in LC), Omanyte, (debatably the best Shell Smasher in LC), and Ferroseed one of the bulkiest and most annoying thing in LC.)

Machop from D to C-

Yeah, this is not going to make me any friends, especially since I considering it for A C or C+. I'll settle for this tho, no need to piss too many people off.

It's often proclaimed by salty players that Pokemon is only 50% skill, and Machop embodies this sentiment.

Put simply, Machops niche is No Guard+STAB Dynamic punch, and it is one of the most frustrating and annoying niches in existence. Confusion needs to not be a thing in gen 7... With a little bit of Pursuit and something to deal with fairys, this little ball of androgynous muscle can potentially be harder to deal with than you might think. Every single turn the opponent hopes to do something, they have to deal with a 50% chance, while being hit with a 150 power attack.

With the standard Scarf set Machop outspeeds pretty much everything, and with a respectable 17 attack, it hits a lot of things surprisingly hard. While I'm not saying this should often be used over Mienfoo or Timburr, but it also doesn't deserve to be lumped in with Ekans and Litleo.

EDIT: I also agree with the Honedge, Zigzagoon, and Snivy noms. Vullaby is overated and Lickitung is garbage tho.

First of, the fact it's hindered by 2 trappers. This poke is one of the most powerfull wallbreakers in the LC metagame. It doesn't need any special attack boost, it doesn't need a turn to get ready, it's just ready from the get go. While Skrep is hindered by Diglett, Gothita doesn't 1v1 win against Skrelp as it can 1HKO goth about as reliably by surving a Psychic and 1HKO'ing it using Sludge Wave/Hydro Pump depending on hazards. Skrelp is slow but is very usefull with teams that get around this like T-wave spam, Tailwind or even Trick room, these all allow you to get around the speed issue and become one of the most deadly pokemon in general but even with that n mind that shouldn't even be concidered.
Being walled by croagunk is actually fairly funny as argument whise, it shouldn't be used by your trapper logic. Reguardless there are very few viable pokemon that can take Skrelps attacks on a switch in.
I do want to compair it to say Omanyte, omanyte has few answeres against it if it's able to set up. It's biggest problem is setting up. Skrelp does this instantly but lacks the speed even before the set up. While I can see some returning parts for B+ in the lack of speed, it doesn't even need that support unlike Bellsprout/Zigzagoon to get the job done one way or another.

Machop on the other hand has very little to offer compaired to the existing Fight types. Timburr for instance outclasses all it could do with Bulk up/Guts besides Bullet Punch and that's not too notable. The Choise Scarfed set faces Scarfed-Mienfoo as main problem but even Pancham/Mankey(I am awair LO is the item to go with mankey) can be more reliable with that thanks to having a way of pivoting around.
Choise Scarfed Dynamic Punch doesn't do mutch compaired to HJK from Mienfoo (Idk if you think it's 150 Base or not but Dynamic is ''only'' 100)causing it to miss out on important KO's against neutral opponants. Just an important calc: 196 Atk Machop Dynamic Punch vs. 156 HP / 40 Def Eviolite Porygon: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock while Mienfoo only needs to get the hit. If you want to take in account the 50% aswell:
The 50% to confuse chance is irritating but doesn't stop walls like Foongus, Spritzee, Snubble from walling you as a Fight resist/Checks are mandatory for any team to the point people run more then just 1. Not even talking about the fact you are slow compaired to any other Choise Scarfed pokemon as 15 Spe Scarfers like Gothita, Magnemite can pivot away from you/1HKO. Now finally lets compair it to the other pokemon in C- : Rufflet has 2 irritating sets with the more changeable Bulk Up set and the surpising Choise Scarfed set. Remoraid has many options in terms of coverage with the Choice Scarfed set allowing it to demolish with Waterspout, nice coverage with just Icebeam+ STAB and break sturdy/sash and the remaining resists using Bullet Seed + Hustle. while not too reliable and mostly some extreems, it's still a reliable wallbreaker(Only walled by Munchlax, Ferroseed, Lileep and Rest-Talk Mantyke excluding the potential other coverage options like Fire Blast and Rock Blast) aswell as an offencive monster against about anything that lacks priority.
A very nice to compair one however is Karrablast, it also has No-Guard but unlike machop it's STAB is generally even worse. Now what does it have? 15/16 speed and 17/18 attack, a Choice Scarfed set and a Swords Dance set. Both are very different to deal with as the Scarfed set can check fast threats while SD can get around some notable walls.

 

[Santa Reuniclause]

Machop on the other hand has very little to offer compaired to the existing Fight types. Timburr for instance outclasses all it could do with Bulk up/Guts besides Bullet Punch and that's not too notable. The Choise Scarfed set faces Scarfed-Mienfoo as main problem but even Pancham/Mankey(I am awair LO is the item to go with mankey) can be more reliable with that thanks to having a way of pivoting around.

I never said Machop was superior to Timburr/Mienfoo/Croagunk, I'm merely saying that with the right support it can be an enormous pain to kill. Also, no, Mankey is literally a worse Mienfoo- as far as I know there is actually no reason to use it over Smogonweasel. I've never used Pancham and I've never really encountered it on a serious team before, but I'd like to point out that it's aaallll the way up in B, whereas I'm only suggesting that Machop be put into the lowly C-.

Choise Scarfed Dynamic Punch doesn't do mutch compaired to HJK from Mienfoo (Idk if you think it's 150 Base or not but Dynamic is ''only'' 100)causing it to miss out on important KO's against neutral opponants. Just an important calc: 196 Atk Machop Dynamic Punch vs. 156 HP / 40 Def Eviolite Porygon: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock while Mienfoo only needs to get the hit

You're missing the point. ofc Machop isn't as strong as Mienfoo HJK, but that's not why you'd (theoretically) use it. You'd use it because it can simultaneously do a decent/good amount of damage while giving the gift of the most annoying status condition in this/any game.

The 50% to confuse chance is irritating but doesn't stop walls like Foongus, Spritzee, Snubble from walling you as a Fight resist/Checks are mandatory for any team to the point people run more then just 1. Not even talking about the fact you are slow compaired to any other Choise Scarfed pokemon as 15 Spe Scarfers like Gothita, Magnemite can pivot away from you/1HKO.

Timburr also get's walled by all these things- every mon has it's counters basically, and even with things like Foongus you can Knock it off on the switch and get out of there, weakening it for any of your counters to these mons (somewhat ironically, Skrelp would be one of the better Blanket counters to all three of these mons...) As for the scarf thing, neither Goth or Mag want to switch into a D-punch when you count in the confusion.

Now finally lets compair it to the other pokemon in C- : Rufflet has 2 irritating sets with the more changeable Bulk Up set and the surpising Choise Scarfed set. Remoraid has many options in terms of coverage with the Choice Scarfed set allowing it to demolish with Waterspout, nice coverage with just Icebeam+ STAB and break sturdy/sash and the remaining resists using Bullet Seed + Hustle. while not too reliable and mostly some extreems, it's still a reliable wallbreaker(Only walled by Munchlax, Ferroseed, Lileep and Rest-Talk Mantyke excluding the potential other coverage options like Fire Blast and Rock Blast) aswell as an offencive monster against about anything that lacks priority.

Rufflet is a lot like Machop, in that it has a lot of competition from same-type mons, but still has a recognisable niche- I'd say Machop and Rufflet should be in the same tier. You are waaaay over-hyping Remoraid as well- the water spout set is outclassed by Water Spout Frillish and loses a lot of power after a couple of switch-ins to hazards, and Ice beam+STAB is literally every water type except Magikarp. Bullet seed does laughable damage to any bulky water as well.

A very nice to compair one however is Karrablast, it also has No-Guard but unlike machop it's STAB is generally even worse. Now what does it have? 15/16 speed and 17/18 attack, a Choice Scarfed set and a Swords Dance set. Both are very different to deal with as the Scarfed set can check fast threats while SD can get around some notable walls.

The thing is, Machop has confuse hax. If your comparing Machop to Karrablast without factoring 50% chance bullshit, then you're not comparing Macop to Karrablast. Also, Karrablast is: Weak to stealth rock, has a terrible typing and a meh movepool, and is outsped by the 153 17 speed mons in LC if it carries SD.

Anyway, I need sleep something awful, so I'll just leave it at that for now. If anything is obviously missing from that post, it's because I'm tired and hurrying.