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Yo this will probably be disagreed with but why is Pumpkaboo-super A-? I think its wholly comparable to Hippopotas as a less offensively inclined Pokemon that walls a few things but still manages to lose to a big portion of the tier. As it stands rn, Pumpkaboo gets bopped by any Knock off user, loses to hp flying snivy, Carvanha dicks it, Archen fletch and vullaby all demolish it, shellder and skrelp both kill it, and it still manages to not beat a huge portion of the tier. It's so easy to set up spikes on its ridiculous, since chespin and ferro both could give two shits about it. Its only real niche is being the best spinblocker, which in this crazy hyper offensive meta isn't really too much to brag about considering its infinitely harder for teams to set up full hazards against teams that just run like pawniard / corphish cores or some offensive shit like that. It's also nowhere near the level of viability as things like corphish, shellder, carvanha, cottonee, etc. I suggest moving it down to B+ or B
Might put a full argument later but pump is way bulkier than you think. Skrelp doesn't 2HKO and pump is faster so it can synth off damage and click wisp/bullet seed. Pump also doesn't lose to any non-itemless archen 1v1 because of wisp/bullet seed. It also doesn't lose to "anything with knock off" because it will easily live most knock offs and be able to wisp and recover off damage (except pawn ofc but what knock off weak pawn is good against pawn).
Yo this will probably be disagreed with but why is Pumpkaboo-super A-? I think its wholly comparable to Hippopotas as a less offensively inclined Pokemon that walls a few things but still manages to lose to a big portion of the tier. As it stands rn, Pumpkaboo gets bopped by any Knock off user, loses to hp flying snivy, Carvanha dicks it, Archen fletch and vullaby all demolish it, shellder and skrelp both kill it, and it still manages to not beat a huge portion of the tier. It's so easy to set up spikes on its ridiculous, since chespin and ferro both could give two shits about it. Its only real niche is being the best spinblocker, which in this crazy hyper offensive meta isn't really too much to brag about considering its infinitely harder for teams to set up full hazards against teams that just run like pawniard / corphish cores or some offensive shit like that. It's also nowhere near the level of viability as things like corphish, shellder, carvanha, cottonee, etc. I suggest moving it down to B+ or B
Shellder 236+ Atk Shellder Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 20-30 (80 - 120%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO eh
200+ SpA Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-26 (72 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Both have a near equal chance to die to 3 hit Bullet Seed in return, sure they can use SR support to deal with it.
As for Snivy, what would it do against it in the first place o-o ? As for the Knock Off part:
0 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 16-21 (64 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196+ Atk Corphish Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Corphish Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196+ Atk Choice Band Corphish Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just some strong Knock Off users that need SR to even get a slightly better then chance at 2HKO/1HKO'ing. (sure it loses to any outside of corphish/mienfoo)
Something important to note about Pumpkaboo-Super is the fact it has enough defences to take any attack from:
236+ SpA Porygon Ice Beam vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Sash-Abra)
236+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Rock Slide vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 6-8 (24 - 32%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
232+ SpA Chinchou Ice Beam vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
200 SpA Staryu Ice Beam vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (off-rapid spinner)
236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Shadow Claw vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
Ferroseed nor Chespin can just ignore the fact it has Will-O-Wisp, acces to reliable recovery unlike ferroseed, a multi-hit move to even do some damage against Ferroseed. of the above listed pokes Drilbur and Staryu ran a more offence one with a special move preciesly for Pumpkaboo but did need LO to 2HKO it, meaning the 2 best Rapid spinners need to go full offence to beat it. You might have noticed Magnemite in there aswell, well once burned it's mutch less of a threat aswell as Volt-switching out expecting a Will-O leaves limited space to switchins like Pawniard,Fletchling,Vullaby or Archen (still has plenty of switch in's like Timburr, Ponyta/Larvesta ). Sure it's not an easy one to argue with it's wall uses however it's still more viable and support giving then most pokes in B/B+
Putting up hazards agaisnt Corphish/Pawn cores isn't easy no, however it can still be done with the right pokes for example Chespin can beat both and set up hazards but that's compleatly off of the subject of Pumpkaboo >.>
you're way underselling pump's capabilities as a mixed wall. there aren't very many mons that can reliably switch into such a variety of threats as abra, drilbur, skrelp, etc. 25/16 special bulk is v good and its physical bulk is further augmented by wow. its got a cool movepool too: it can run fire blast to bop snivy or even rock slide to catch ponyta/larvesta on the switch. this doesn't even take into account how good it is at keeping hazards up since it beats every spinner available 1v1. keep it a- please
you're way underselling pump's capabilities as a mixed wall. there aren't very many mons that can reliably switch into such a variety of threats as abra, drilbur, skrelp, etc. 25/16 special bulk is v good and its physical bulk is further augmented by wow. its got a cool movepool too: it can run fire blast to bop snivy or even rock slide to catch ponyta/larvesta on the switch. this doesn't even take into account how good it is at keeping hazards up since it beats every spinner available 1v1. keep it a- please
I'm not saying its bad. Hippo happens to check 4 mons that are notoriously rough in the metagame, with mienfoo timburr fletch and pawn. But it still has notable flaws. Pumpkaboos entire sellin point has just gone downhill with the rise of wallbreakers>spike stacking. Like, the meta used to be stuff like spike stacking with LO dig or abra, which is great bc pump is awesome in that role. However thd metas has really shifted towards massive wallbreakers and wincons like corphish fletch and shellder, which it does shit to. It pften struggles to get in safely except on drilbur, and half the calcs that rhydonphilip up there posted are entirely irrelevant. Pump is such a poor switchin to skrelp it isnt even funny dude. Not only do you not want to tale a burn and possibly be unable to check something like corphish late game, you also fear the poison from sludge wave, and while youre sitting there synthesizing skrelp is free to set up toxic spikes, or just pp stall the synth away. At best youre delaying the game. Abra still happens to deal shittons of damage, having a good chance to 2hko with life orb, always 2hkoing with sr or spikes, and even having a good chance for the sash set to 2hko with sr + 1 layer (i know this contradicts my main point of hazards are less prevalent thus pump is less seen but abra also happens to be the best abuser of hazards, especially with a sash so i thinks it relevant to include at least 1 layer since tons of teams are oriented specificaly around that instead of just in general setting up spikes).
Like you can argue "cool and innovating tech moves that it can run" but in the end that just falls flat. Fire Blast 3hkoes the Berry Juice set, and flat out is PP stalled by the Synth Eviolite set. Snivy pretty much ALWAYS BEATS Pumpkaboo. You don't even OHKO Larvesta without hazards, which are not likely to be up on a larvesta team run by a good player. In fact you have to get a high roll with Rock Slide + Sneak to kill it, which idek what move you're giving up for Rock Slide, since it needs Synth and WoW for utility, and Sneak to "check" Abra, and Bullet Seed to check Drilbur / Staryu / other Water-types.
look, I'm not saying its bad. I'm saying that Staryu / Drilbur / other hazard stackers like Ferroseed are not as relevant anymore as they used to be, thus as a secondary causal effect, Pumpkaboo is not as effective as it could be. Its similar to if Abra / Gastly were banned, how Stunky would drop immensely. The role provided by Pump just isn't that useful anymore. It can still work, yes, but its abilities as a wall are meh right now. The fact of the matter is, its not A tier by definition. It does NOT wall a majority of the tier, and it has tons of flaws, such as weak to Knock Off and little to no offensive prescence. Right now common wallbreakers like Corphish, Shellder, Pawniard, Timburr, etc, all smash and beat it. The only things that Pump legitimately walls are Drilbur and Staryu, and even then Pump still manages to lose to LO Staryu, one of the most common sets.
Shellder 236+ Atk Shellder Icicle Spear (5 hits) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 20-30 (80 - 120%) -- approx. 6.3% chance to OHKO eh
200+ SpA Adaptability Skrelp Sludge Wave vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Life Orb Carvanha Crunch vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-26 (72 - 104%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO
Both have a near equal chance to die to 3 hit Bullet Seed in return, sure they can use SR support to deal with it.
As for Snivy, what would it do against it in the first place o-o ? As for the Knock Off part:
0 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
236 Atk Life Orb Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 16-21 (64 - 84%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196+ Atk Corphish Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- 96.5% chance to 2HKO
196+ Atk Corphish Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 12-16 (48 - 64%) -- guaranteed 2HKO after Stealth Rock
196+ Atk Choice Band Corphish Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-22 (72 - 88%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
156 Atk Pawniard Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 18-24 (72 - 96%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
Just some strong Knock Off users that need SR to even get a slightly better then chance at 2HKO/1HKO'ing. (sure it loses to any outside of corphish/mienfoo)
Something important to note about Pumpkaboo-Super is the fact it has enough defences to take any attack from:
236+ SpA Porygon Ice Beam vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 11.3% chance to 2HKO
240 SpA Abra Psychic vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 9-12 (36 - 48%) -- 9.8% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (Sash-Abra)
236+ SpA Magnemite Flash Cannon vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 7-10 (28 - 40%) -- 100% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
236 Atk Life Orb Diglett Rock Slide vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 6-8 (24 - 32%) -- 1.1% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
236+ SpA Gothita Psychic vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 7-9 (28 - 36%) -- 17.6% chance to 3HKO after Stealth Rock
232+ SpA Chinchou Ice Beam vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
200 SpA Staryu Ice Beam vs. 204 HP / 236+ SpD Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock (off-rapid spinner)
236 Atk Mold Breaker Drilbur Shadow Claw vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-12 (40 - 48%) -- 12.1% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
0 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 204 HP / 36 Def Eviolite Pumpkaboo-Super: 10-14 (40 - 56%) -- 99.6% chance to 2HKO after Stealth Rock
alright look im just going to say this right now since a majority of your posts are just littered with random calcs. Calcs like these are not good at proving your point. Like, at all. Not only did you prove that Pumpkaboo fails to check Skrelp / Shellder / Carvanha (Special vanha hits even harder than physical in calcs), Pump fails to switch in on a majority of the metagame. In fact the only thing it can ever switch in on are things it resists, since powerful neutral attacks still 2hko (see skrelp sludge wave). the first half of your calcs simply prove my point of how everything 2hkoes it, meaning it can never switch in on most teams. That would be fine if it could actually threaten teams super hard. Skrelp is a good example of a mon that is really 2hkoed by most things but still has the power to back up its usage and just ravages most balance. Pumpkaboo has lol Bullet Seed coming from uninvested attack. Its other option is Shadow Sneak, neither of which are going to do anything to shit like Foongus, Spritzee, Porygon, or even shit like Timburr or Mienfoo. It has no offensive prescence to warrant its lack of bulk.
Ferroseed nor Chespin can just ignore the fact it has Will-O-Wisp, acces to reliable recovery unlike ferroseed, a multi-hit move to even do some damage against Ferroseed. of the above listed pokes Drilbur and Staryu ran a more offence one with a special move preciesly for Pumpkaboo but did need LO to 2HKO it, meaning the 2 best Rapid spinners need to go full offence to beat it. You might have noticed Magnemite in there aswell, well once burned it's mutch less of a threat aswell as Volt-switching out expecting a Will-O leaves limited space to switchins like Pawniard,Fletchling,Vullaby or Archen (still has plenty of switch in's like Timburr, Ponyta/Larvesta ). Sure it's not an easy one to argue with it's wall uses however it's still more viable and support giving then most pokes in B/B+
Putting up hazards agaisnt Corphish/Pawn cores isn't easy no, however it can still be done with the right pokes for example Chespin can beat both and set up hazards but that's compleatly off of the subject of Pumpkaboo >.>
idk about you dude, but i could give two shits if my ferroseed or chespin are burned if that means that i get up 2-3 layers of spikes. Ferroseed doesn't really care at all, especially since its paired with Spritzee commonly, which runs aroma and wish so ferro stays healthy. lol how does pump even come close to doing damage to ferroseed bro? with 5 hits you do 22% lmao. Thats piss damage dude. who cares if the two best spinners need to go offensive to beat it? thats a good thing dude, I'd much rather have a drilbur that does damage than one that just sits on its ass not ohkoing anything relevant and getting 2hkoed or ohkoed by random stuff. How is mag being burned make it much less of a threat? why would it care unless its Berry Juice sturdy, in which case why are you even TRYING to kill pumpkaboo (since you don't ever 2hko, theres zero point in bringing it in on pump).
uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh i would say its EXACTLY as viable as mons in B+. B+ is home to some awesome shit like Hippo, Tirt, and Croagunk. To imply that those mons are shit is an insult, when in fact theyre damn good. Croagunk happens to be the best Corphish and Fighting-type check all in one right now, which is cool as balls. Like, I really don't get how you people can argue that Hippo and Gunk are B tier, but pumpkaboo happens to check spinners making it way better than them (this is entirely not mentioning Defog as an option for most teams, which it is, and pumpkaboo completely fails at stopping that).
Moving Gastly to A+ due to support from numerous players, myself included after some thought. I'm not going to move any of the others for now because there hasn't been enough agreement. I might move Budew to C- though after suggestions from Fiend and Tect, simply because it's a spiker that beats every spinner (but also loses to every defogger), and has the ability to set-up on Snivy of all things.
I've got a few noms that might be worth discussing -
Ferroseed: A -> A-
In a metagame with so much Knock Off and VoltTurn, it isn't very difficult to wear defensive Pokemon down, so reliable recovery is quite important. Ferroseed in particular comes in on VoltTurn a lot, and yet it rarely even has a slot for Leech Seed, which is an underwhelming move anyways. Synergizing with Spritzee is pretty cool at a glance, but passing Wishes is tough in practice. This makes it hard for it to last as long as it wants to as a part of defensive cores - many of the Pokemon it'd like to check are able to simply outlast it. I would argue that it's actually a better fit on bulky offensive teams, where it can work as a dedicated hazard setter that just happens to have good typing for offensive teams, but it suffers greatly from very low offensive presence, which often means that it loses momentum. Ferroseed is still very good, as it can fill a role no other Pokemon can come close to, but I believe its drawbacks make it a bad idea to mindlessly slap onto a team in the same way as most mid-A ranks; in this regard, it is more comparable to the more niche, although still very strong, Pokemon of A-, like Houndour or Shellder.
Vulpix: A -> A-
Speaking of mons that are too hard to include on a team for their ranking, I feel that Vulpix being moved down is a long time coming. Each of its sets has enormous shortcomings, enough to make it tough to justify including on the average team over its competition, and everything that checks the wall-breaker set also checks the others, so it's not a matter of versatility, either. If I remember correctly, the wall-breaking set was what got it moved up in the first place, but the metagame isn't nearly as slow as it used to be. Nowadays, when I'm looking for something that offers almost nothing in the way of defensive synergy but just about guarantees a KO if it manages to get in, I'd rather go with Gastly or Abra, because there are too many threats in Vulpix's speed tier for it to be especially threatening against offense unless you're very skilled with ties, and it's a bit of a waste to use a slot solely to beat defensive teams when they're so rare. It doesn't help that fast and frail wall-breakers are pretty easy to force out after they get a KO, and Vulpix, unlike Gastly/Abra, is vulnerable to every single entry hazard. Standard Heat Rock Vulpix provides some nice support, but only for a very specific team archetype; outside of that, it's still fairly powerful, but way too frail to make it good as a stand-alone mon. I don't think I've seen a scarf Vulpix since like early 2014, which makes sense because a scarf user that is vulnerable to every single hazard and doesn't have voltturn is usually pretty easy to play around.
Drifloon: A- -> A
This one is probably going to be controversial, but honestly the more I use it the more I love it, and the more I play against mad0ka the more I hate it. Standard two attack physical/mixfloon is as irritating as ever, Trickspecs/Endure + WP/Defog support are all interesting sets, I have seen CM floon work even though I'm not personally fond of it, and I probably missed a bunch because Drifloon's moveset is super flexible. However, the set that in my opinion pushes floon into mid-A territory is bulky Recyclefloon, specifically Recycle/Acrobatics/Will-O-Wisp/Substitute. Most floons mess around with your team for a bit, but then you pop bj and wear them down, not too bad except for a burned and koffed mon (although this mon might be your check to some sweeper). Not Recyclefloon, because it straight-up wins against Recyclelax, Vullaby, and even non-scarf variants of Pawniard. Archen is a 50/50. Recyclefloon is just such a ridiculously effective set; it can soft check some pretty important mons, like Fighting-types and Snivy, as well as lure in and incapacitate all sorts of things that are often a team's only check to key threats. The only relevant things that can actually switch into it and win are non-koffed Ponyta and Electric-types, and Chinchou needs RestTalk or Thunderbolt to win. It's super easy to fit Drifloon onto a team, considering how it's one of the best mons to have for some very prominent archetypes, including birdspam, spike-stacking, and webs. I get that floon is weak to rocks, weak to koff, doesn't have impressive offensive stats etc. but I do not think these traits are anywhere enough to prevent floon from drastically and consistently hampering an opposing team's strategy on par with mid-A mons.
pic requested by doka:
Cottonee: A- -> B+
Fiend mentioned this a couple of months ago and it was met with mixed reception, so I'd like to throw in my support for a drop here. Cottonee definitely ranks among the best when it comes to versatility, but I feel like each of its sets is pretty underwhelming, especially in practice. The issue isn't that Cottonee is completely walled by one or two popular threats; instead, Cottonee is completely walled by numerous relevant threats. Cottonee is nearly a dead weight against any team that has one or more of Magnemite/Foongus/Ferroseed/Ponyta/Spritzee in addition to struggling a bunch against Pawniard/Porygon/Fletchling/Archen/Snivy/Vullaby/Houndour/Skrelp/Vulpix, and that's just among the S- and A-ranks. I don't mean this like how Pawniard has trouble with Mienfoo, I mean that if the opposing team has Foongus, then Cottonee will be relegated to Knocking Off Foongus's Eviolite and nothing more for the entirety of the match. Most of the time, it's not worth it to almost fully dedicate a team slot to Knocking Off or paralyzing a single opposing Pokemon; there are certainly teams out there where you really need Foongus weakened, or Ponyta paralyzed, or Vullaby stuck with an Iron Ball, but those are pretty specific roles, and as has been mentioned previously, B+ isn't a bad ranking by any stretch. It's not a good idea to rely solely on Cottonee to check things, because it isn't difficult at all to lure Cottonee out with what it's supposed to check if the opponent really needs Cottonee gone; Fighting-types can run Poison coverage, Water-types except for Corphish (who has a good chance to 2HKO an Evioliteless Cottonee after Stealth Rock) can run Ice coverage, and Dark-types often have secondary STAB moves that scare Cottonee out. As a glue Pokemon that suffers from being easily lured, Cottonee is comparable to Croagunk, trading actual offensive presence and the ability to go mixed for more pure utility and not being as easily trapped. This is worth considering because Croagunk is B+, and I do not believe that Cottonee is any more effective than Croagunk.
Scraggy: B -> B+
This gets brought up a lot and usually gets shot down because it's weak to fights/fairies/fletch, but I actually think that this has some merit. Fight spam has been one of those cool things to use for a while now, and although it usually consists of Mienfoo + Timburr, Scraggy is another great choice. As a part of these cores, a teammate will be able to cover the fairy weakness; alternatively, Scraggy can run Poison Jab to support its fellow Fighting-type's sweep. Opposing Fighting-types aren't reliable checks because Timburr and non-High Jump Kick Mienfoo have a good chance of losing to the Eviolite set if they switch in on one of Scraggy's STAB moves, and to the Scarf set if they switch in on High Jump Kick, while Croagunk loses to Zen Headbutt variants. Fletchling can shut down a weakened Scraggy's sweep, but Scraggy is similar to Timburr in that it still has a great deal of utility even if it doesn't attempt to sweep; a STAB Knock Off from respectable Attack is fantastic however you look at it. Scraggy's main advantage over Timburr is that it is much, much more immediately threatening, courtesy of the sheer damage output of Knock Off and High Jump Kick. It isn't any worse as a sweeper, as DD Scraggy merely needs a different set of Pokemon removed compared to BU Timburr, not necessarily more or less. Scraggy is also quite versatile, arguably more so than Timburr; other than a myriad of choices for coverage moves, Scarf and DD variants often need different ways to be dealt with if you don't have a Fairy-type, and it usually isn't immediately obvious which set you might be dealing with since they both usually just click Knock Off the first time they come in. I feel that Scraggy is at least better than Pancham, as it is much more able to differentiate itself from other Fighting-types.
I'm agreeing with a lot of what Levi said, but I want to talk about the one that I strongly disagree with, Drifloon. It's a good mon and can be deadly on the right teams, but it suffers heavily from a lack of power and bulk. Speed isn't too much of an issue due to Unburden (although without the boost it's actually not too impressive and leaves it killed by a multiple threats and reliant on speed ties) but unless you have a calm mind behind you or are hitting super effectively Drifloon's probably not going to be able to KO the opponent particularly fast which is an issue considering that Drifloon has really poor bulk considering that it doesn't hold eviolite.
While Levi acknowledged this in his nomination, Drifloon is incredibly weak to knock off. It instantly goes from having recovery and being able to come in later and activate Unburden to suddenly having a useless moveslot if you run recycle (sub isn't nearly as useful either) and lacking nearly as much ability to go in and out. This is also assuming that it survives the knock off, which takes fairly heavy investment if rocks are up.
0 Atk Mienfoo Knock Off (97.5 BP) vs. 116 HP / 184 Def Drifloon: 18-22 (66.6 - 81.4%) -- 6.3% chance to OHKO after Stealth Rock
The thing with Drifloon is that it's amazingly versatile. It has something like five different variations not even counting what coverage it runs. But each individual set isn't amazing, if the moveset viability rankings were up to date, then it'd be easy to argue that Drifloon has maybe one set that's better than B+. The thing is that it has a lot of sets around B/B+ viability. For me that's enough to keep it A-, but not move it to A.
My own personal experience playing against it, since I rarely use it, is never being afraid that it could be an issue and 90% of the time it isn't. It's either so frail or so weak that it can't come in on much and be threatening. It's a good mon in theory and probably in practice, but I don't see it as better than Houndour, Omanyte, or Shellder and near the same level as stuff like Snivy, Vullaby, and Ponyta.
For what it's worth I'm not really sure I agree with Scraggy to B+ but it's not as strong as floon.
Vulpix should be A- since it's actually not too much better than Houndour in terms of being a wallbreaker and sun hasn't been rising in viability to make up for that. Sure Drought Fire Blast hits like a truck but the lack of a second STAB and everything else being really weak is unfortunate. Like Levi mentioned the speed tier leaves it tying with a lot of the stuff it'd like to KO, and its frailty doesn't do it any favors.
On a different note, Dwebble could move down to B. While it's still a decent suicide lead and the meta has shifted more towards offense, it's not at the levels of HO where it thrives. The Shell Smash set is barely worth mentioning, although it can be surprising to people who lack a fighting type. It's still a decent lead but I'd argue that it's not a much better suicide lead than Surskit is, even though they set up different hazards.
I want to nominate Ponyta A --> A+
This thing is just so customizable and dangerous and I feel really nervous literally every time I see my opponent with one. Ponyta has it's crazy speed and good defensive stats yadda yadda we know that, but then it also has so much you can choose from. Want a surprise sweeper? Sunnybeam. Want a fire type to just throw out power? Max speed and attack. Need a wall that fully supports the team? Max defense + speed. Don't like recoil of flare blitz and need another special attacker? Well you can easily switch to fire blast. It fits into FWG cores so effortlessly and in many matches I find myself relying on it heavily throughout the match. The fact that it beats almost every physical attacker (not including scarfers) 1v1 except for diglett, carvanha and some timburr is crazy. Also lmao I've shut down so many sweeps when I should've lost thanks to flame body burning their ziggy or fletch.
How has the meta changed in favor of ponyta? I have seen just a constant increase in physical attackers; it seems like special attackers are becoming quite rare. Really, I think ponyta's only problems are that it cant comfortably get kills with diglett around and it lacks coverage to reliably beat water types like chinchou and i think those are what's keeping it from being an S rank mon.
Here's a replay where Ponyta was able to support early on and then the moment slowpoke, the only thing that stood in pony's way, was dead the match was over. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-310320998
Moving Gastly to A+ due to support from numerous players, myself included after some thought. I'm not going to move any of the others for now because there hasn't been enough agreement. I might move Budew to C- though after suggestions from Fiend and Tect, simply because it's a spiker that beats every spinner (but also loses to every defogger), and has the ability to set-up on Snivy of all things.
I actually made a comment about it going to B in the LCUU viability thread
Budew has a surprisingly large number of options with spikes, synthesis, sleep powder, giga drain, leaf storm, sludge bomb, natural cure rest, stun spore and coverage options in shadow ball, extransensory and dazzling gleam. Reaching 16 speed can be really helpful and although 40/35/70 bulk isn't great, it has good defensive typing and can tank a lot of special hits, especially if you opt for a natural cure rest set which allows you to easily go in and out on special attackers a lot while fully healing each time before you leave. Very nice for an in n out spikes layer.
I'd be hesitant to move it to C- because I don't think many people have really used it well even though I think it's a solid C mon but it definitely is deserving of D and hopefully it can move up further if people give it a shot
Well, I'm new to this thread, so I'm not 100% sure if I'm doing this right but: Deerling C- --> C+
This is- in my opinion- on of the most underused Pokemon in this meta. It reaches a great 18 speed, and while it's attack stat isn't incredible, it's boosted by Deerlings great coverage. I personally run Return, Seed bomb, Jump Kick, and Wild charge, but you could also run Double edge for even more power, Synthesis for recovery, or even Bounce for super-effective hits on other grass types.
What's more, it gets access to both Sap Sipper or Serene Grace, allowing it to either switch into other grass types- and potentially hit hard with bounce or simply a +1 Stab return- or get a nice 60% chance to paralyze with bounce, depending on what you choose. And I know that a lot of people would say that it's 15 attack is lackluster, but it is allowed to be boosted by life orb, and a potential +1 from Sap Sipper.
Here's a good replay detailing why it's so good, and I need to point out that without me getting two DP flinches, Deerling would have swept the last two mons. Unfortunately, since I got hax, he only got 3 kills. http://replay.pokemonshowdown.com/lc-311274683
All in all- while it's certainly not A or even B standard, it's certainly worth raising above C-.
I'd also- somewhat more hesitantly- like to say: Cubone C- --> C OR C+
Cubone isn't exactly underused, but it is badly used, which is I think is why it's so low in the ranking.
The fact is that Cubone is basically one of the most powerful Pokemon in LC once it has its Thick club, reaching 28 Attack- and that's Jolly, it actually reaches a phenomenal 30 attack with Adamant. Bonemerang breaks Sash's and sturdy, as well as being more powerful than EQ due to LC rolls.
What's more, with the standard set of 196 attack, 236 speed (Jolly) 76 defense, it's a lot more bulky than most people realize. Whats more, it gets some good coverage. That said, it's 3 basically useless ability's stop me from trying for C+. Essentially, this thing kills basically anything with Bonemerang, and 14 speed allows it to outspeed a lot of walls, as well as Timburr, though it's not a check or counter necessarily.
All in all, Cubone deserves to be higher than C-.
I actually made a comment about it going to B in the LCUU viability thread
Budew has a surprisingly large number of options with spikes, synthesis, sleep powder, giga drain, leaf storm, sludge bomb, natural cure rest, stun spore and coverage options in shadow ball, extransensory and dazzling gleam. Reaching 16 speed can be really helpful and although 40/35/70 bulk isn't great, it has good defensive typing and can tank a lot of special hits, especially if you opt for a natural cure rest set which allows you to easily go in and out on special attackers a lot while fully healing each time before you leave. Very nice for an in n out spikes layer.
I'd be hesitant to move it to C- because I don't think many people have really used it well even though I think it's a solid C mon but it definitely is deserving of D and hopefully it can move up further if people give it a shot
Glad this is finally being discussed after my initial nom, and I can see why you could be hesistant to move it into the C's. D seems fair in my mind, but a C ranking is where I ultimately would like to see it reside.
I'd also- somewhat more hesitantly- like to say: Cubone C- --> C OR C+
Cubone isn't exactly underused, but it is badly used, which is I think is why it's so low in the ranking.
The fact is that Cubone is basically one of the most powerful Pokemon in LC once it has its Thick club, reaching 28 Attack- and that's Jolly, it actually reaches a phenomenal 30 attack with Adamant. Bonemerang breaks Sash's and sturdy, as well as being more powerful than EQ due to LC rolls.
What's more, with the standard set of 196 attack, 236 speed (Jolly) 76 defense, it's a lot more bulky than most people realize. Whats more, it gets some good coverage. That said, it's 3 basically useless ability's stop me from trying for C+. Essentially, this thing kills basically anything with Bonemerang, and 14 speed allows it to outspeed a lot of walls, as well as Timburr, though it's not a check or counter necessarily.
All in all, Cubone deserves to be higher than C-.
I actualy want to add to this the fact it's speed is high enough to check bulky Larvesta, Omanyte, Fast Skrelp(idk who is still running that) and generaly bulkier pokemon for ballenced teams. Bulkier pokemon like Porygon get 2HKO'd and thanks to it's speed it can't just be switched in, so that's notable.
Moves that I want to exaggerate are:(yes it get's Rock Slide aswell), Knock Off, Stealth Rocks, Swords Dance (isn't too usefull i guess, mostly because the chance you could set up effectively is limited,) and finally a couple of Elemental punches that only Fire Punch has something usefull in it hitting Bulky Grass types like Chespin/Ferroseed. I my self generaly prefer to run Stealth Rocks on the last slot besides Bonemerang, Rock Slide and Knock Off.
It's defences are good, but don't allow it to check offencive threats like Pawniard (Knock Off = less damage = Misses out on the KO even with SR's.), Fletchling get's checked but after a SD it just dies. Generaly very weak to Knock Off becomming useless with it's punny 14 attack, in the current metagame this isn't great at all though. I my self realy love Trick Room, but as far as I have tried, this poke takes away nearly all readon to use Trapinch, as it has acces to enough offence to 2HKO practicaly anything, nearly unnoticable difference in Bulk compaired to trapinch if running max attack and the remaining in defences, while Trapinch has Eviolite, max bulk investment aswell and so on. Making it seem more redundant then anything as momentum in Trick Room is nearly not existent. Still Trick Room itself while good in this metagame (yes Trick Room isn't too horrific against Sticky web's/Hyper Offence(arguable)/Bulky Offence unlike what people constantly think lol, does lose to Trapping/Ballenced tho)
I did still suggest this to be worth C mid rank, mainly because it could perform multiple rols, even including the fact these rols have notable downsides.
Edit: I derped with the movepool of Cubone getting Rock Polish
(I agree with all of Levi's post bar the drifloon part)
Aipom B- -> B
Dratini C -> B-
Honedge C+ -> B-
Onix B -> B- (Levi Disagrees)
Shellos & Lickitung B- -> C+
Mankey D -> C
Write Ups:
Aipom:
Aipom is one of the best wallbreakers in the tier.Its varied movepool and dangerous combo of Skill Link + Fury Swipes means only resists are safe when Aipom is packing a Life Orb, and its high speed allows it to threaten bulky and offensive teams alike with this combination. If the raw power of Life Orb isn't needed, it can also run an Eviolite wall-breaker set, which is still very powerful and is bulky enough to avoid most OHKOs. On top of that, the aforementioned movepool carries Fire Punch, Knock Off, Brick Break, Water Pulse, and Fake Out, as well as less consistently useful options such as U-turn, Baton Pass, and Taunt. Aipom's effectiveness as an offensive Pokemon makes it much scarier to face than the other B- Pokemon.
Dratini:
Dratini is a very unique pokemon, its rather rare typing, balanced stats, and incredible offensive movepool makes it somewhat unpredicable, being able to go purely physical or mixed can shake up what can check it. On the special side of its movepool hold gems like Draco Meteor, Hydro Pump, Fire Blast, while its physical movepool contains Iron Tail, Outrage, and one of the best priority moves in the game Extreme Speed. Extreme Speed is what really sets Dratini apart from the other dragons, the ability to avoid revenge kills from the likes of diglett, fletchling or gothita really benefit its mixed set's role as a wallbreaker. Unlike other wallbreakers like Pancham, who need to be careful doing their jobs to avoid being trapped or losing momentum, dratini can safely rampage given the RKers are in espeed range, not a difficult task. Aside from Extreme Speed Dratini's Life Orb boosted Draco Meteors will dent any mon that isn't immune to it, and iron tail and fire blast handle the majority of the pokemon that handle it. Dragon Dance albeit mediocre in comparison to the mixed set is nice for catching some of the mixed sets answers like porygon for a nice suprise in Outrage
Honedge:
This got brought up a few times already, but Honedge is a really cool role compressor given its ability to check a multitude of threats, most notably Abra and Fletchling, thanks to its typing. It has more than enough physical bulk to make up for its weakness to Knock Off, surviving even Pawniard's to OHKO in return with Sacred Sword. Although its power can be underwhelming, it still makes for a good soft check to a variety of Pokemon, and is much easier to fit onto a team than the other C+ ranks.
Shellos:
It honestly just loses too much momentum. Defensive teams are extremely rare nowadays, and even on those Shellos struggles to find its place. Mienfoo commonly runs High Jump Kick, and Timburr almost always runs Bulk Up, meaning Shellos is not a reliable check to either. Life Orb and Swords Dance variants of Pawniard both get around Shellos, and are as popular as ever. Fire-types aren't as common as they used to be due to the prominence of Diglett. The metagame is very unfriendly to Shellos, causing it to almost always be shafted aside.
Lickitung:
Lickitung is practically a hindrance for any team that isn't full-blown defensive (unless it's a recipient for Torchpass, which is an extremely small niche), but full-blown defensive teams aren't nearly as effective with all the huge wall-breakers running around. Although it's bulky, plenty of Pokemon can freely take advantage of its presence. Lickitung's horrid offensive presence means that the vast majority of teams cast it aside for Munchlax or Porygon when looking for a bulky Normal-type, and isn't any easier to fit onto a team than Lileep or Magby, for example.
Mankey:
Mankey is actually a pretty strong Fighting spam teammate due to its fantastic coverage options, between Earthquake, Gunk Shot, and Ice Punch. It's not super slow like Pancham, and is also much more powerful. The Scarf set isn't actually that good because Mienfoo does it much better, but the Life Orb set is incredibly tough to switch into, making it a strong wall-breaker. It does suffer a ton of competition, but is definitely worth considering for a serious team unlike other D-ranks due to its coverage moves and a nice ability in Defiant to deter Defog, Sticky Web, and most notably, Snubbull's Intimidate.
Onix:
Onix is one of the few remaining viable suicide leads, thanks to its Sturdy + Berry Juice combination and access to Stealth Rock and Taunt. What sets Onix apart from the ordinary suicide lead is that if it is needed Onix can function well mid-game in part due to handy resistances, 17 speed, nice offensive stabs and titantic physical bulk. The main resistance its sought for is Flying, Fletchling, Vullaby, and Archen, are walled by Onix for most of the game, despite Knock Off or Earthquake from the latter two. Despite all those bright spots, theres a lot of negatives to Onix.The most apparent negatitive is the weakness to Fighting and Water, dominant mons such as Timburr, Mienfoo, and Corphish can all lay waste to onix rather easily, access to knock off and a super-effective STAB neuter onix's bulk and effective 1 time recovery. Another issue is Onix's offensive presence, while its STABs hold good power his low attack stat holds them back, and he is unable to do great damage to threats coming in, it does have taunt to prevent recovery attempts to help mitiage that though. Overalll I feel like Onix is on par with Honedge and Slowpoke, not the likes of Surskit or Doduo and therefore should drop to B-.
I want to nominate the Archerfish C- ---> C Mid
Remoraid has one of the biggest movepools in the game having acces to: Waterspout, Hydro Pump, Fire Blast/Flametrower, Psychic, Ice Beam, Signal Beam and Scald. On the Physical side there exists Bullet Seed, Rock Blast and Gunk Shot.
having the Hustle Ability, toping at 17 speed, usefull 19 HP range with a small drop for Life Orb however this item removes one of it's best moves.
It's versatility with this extends to a usefull Scarfed Special set, Mixed set or Life Orb wallbreaker. the only downsides it realy has are it's criple defences having Only 10 pointd (9 if mixed) in both the defences hold it back the biggest part, as this basically means it get's almost KO'd with priority.
156 Atk Pawniard Sucker Punch vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Remoraid: 15-18 (75 - 90%) -- guaranteed 2HKO
196+ Atk Fletchling Acrobatics (110 BP) vs. 0 HP / 0 Def Remoraid: 18-22 (90 - 110%) -- 43.8% chance to OHKO
I am not going to bother suggesting the Focus-Sniper + Scope Lense set to get all the crits as this is more gimmicky then efficient as you wast a turn to set up and still lose to the exact same things as the scarfed/LO set.
Last time i listed it people still agreed with this reasoning however it got passed asside for later as we first needed more argumentation on the subject to get it trough. I also cbb to repeat the reasoning for natu to go up, even though it should.
Drifloon is left untouched, as it has a bunch of people disagreeing with moving it up. Kingmidas's changes haven't been discussed much yet, along with those after it, so I'd like to see some discussion on those. Personally, I agree with all of Kingmidas's and Levi's changes except for Dratini moving up.
It's time. I'm going for it, I will be nominating:
Litwick for D Rank!
Litwick is a pretty cool mon I've been testing out lately on a Trick Room team, and I think it should be ranked. While it's only niche is in it's offensive Trick Room set (Eviolite/BJ sets are more or less outclassed by Ponyta), it's so effective at utilizing it that I think it can be a viable mon. It's typing, while not great, still has some perks that make it worthwhile on TR teams, like completely walling a lot of Sun mons, like Vulpix and Bellsprout, being immune to Fire and Fighting type moves, and resisting types like Steel, Fairy, and Grass. It's also really powerful as it's STABs are pretty strong, and it outspeeds virtually anything under Trick Room, making it a great wallbreaker or sweeper. Sadly, Litwick has a lot of flaws, like only being usable on Trick Room teams, having a lot of weaknesses, and being outclassed in any role outside of Trick Room. But overall, with some support, Litwick can be a really cool mon that is pretty effective, and in my opinion, it is on par with the other D mons such as Litleo, Machop, and Binacle. So, all in all, Litwick is a cool mon that's very niche, but has a good niche with it's typing and power under Trick Room, so rank Litwick at D.
It's time. I'm going for it, I will be nominating:
Litwick for D Rank!
Litwick is a pretty cool mon I've been testing out lately on a Trick Room team, and I think it should be ranked. While it's only niche is in it's offensive Trick Room set (Eviolite/BJ sets are more or less outclassed by Ponyta), it's so effective at utilizing it that I think it can be a viable mon. It's typing, while not great, still has some perks that make it worthwhile on TR teams, like completely walling a lot of Sun mons, like Vulpix and Bellsprout, being immune to Fire and Fighting type moves, and resisting types like Steel, Fairy, and Grass. It's also really powerful as it's STABs are pretty strong, and it outspeeds virtually anything under Trick Room, making it a great wallbreaker or sweeper. Sadly, Litwick has a lot of flaws, like only being usable on Trick Room teams, having a lot of weaknesses, and being outclassed in any role outside of Trick Room. But overall, with some support, Litwick can be a really cool mon that is pretty effective, and in my opinion, it is on par with the other D mons such as Litleo, Machop, and Binacle. So, all in all, Litwick is a cool mon that's very niche, but has a good niche with it's typing and power under Trick Room, so rank Litwick at D.
I disagree with this incredibly strongly. Litwick is decent on Trick room, but you really overstate its advantages. Its special attack isn't very good, it's actually only good considering that it can only hit 17 and requires a positive nature to do so, meaning that you need Life Orb in order to actually be strong enough to start KOing stuff. This means that its good bulk is marginalized by not having Eviolite, and it can't take many hits well. Even with Life Orb though it can't OHKO a lot of things without them being weakened first, not to mention how weak to knock off it is. In order to use it you depend on your opponent having something that Litwick can set up Trick Room on, and while those aren't overly uncommon (Ponyta, Larvesta, Spritzee, and Ferroseed aren't rare) the fact that Litwick is worth very little if your opponent doesn't carry those means that in many matches it's going to be little more than death fodder or maybe get off one hit.
This is of course all disregarding the fact that Trick Room as a playstyle isn't particularly threatening, and because of its nature of sticking around after the setter is KOed means that a significant portion of your team has to be able to function well under trick room. This indirectly means that Litwick doesn't just require a good amount of support but can actually force your team into certain mons.
As for what you're comparing it to, I've personally never seen the appeal of Litleo so I'll let other people defend it, but it nearly dropped several times and has stronger STABs, better special attack, and even better bulk than Litwick does, as well as not being weak to Knock Off. Machop is actually one of the most annoying mons to face in LC, due to how completely stupid the guaranteed confusion of Dynamic Punch is. It's also fairly strong and bulky, although Timburr is mostly better barring the power and hax potential of Dynamic Punch. Binacle is a Shell Smasher that can get past Ferroseed due to Cross Chop or slam Cottonee with Poison Jab if it tries to Encore Shell Smash, it's just that most of the time Tirtouga or Shellder are better physical smashers. It does have its uses though, so it deserves D rank. All three of them are usable on most teams and don't force heavy restrictions like Litwick does - while Litleo does this too Litwick also really wants hazard removal due to being weak to rocks.
Litwick is not more threatening than Azurill under Trick Room, although it differentiates itself with the ability to set its own TR and Memento (but Azurill makes up for it with its ability to hold Eviolite giving it better bulk and its better typing and even better power), although yes I fully understand that the two are different. It's also not better than Charmander or Cyndaquil as fire types, and so should be kept with these unranked mons. This doesn't mean that Litwick is unredeemable trash that should never be used, just that it's not up to par with the other D rank mons.
I guess I'll say something about KM+Levi's nominations? Dratini should rise, but really only to C+ for now. It's pretty good but two ranks are a big jump to go all at once. It could probably end up in B- but shouldn't shift right there. I'm also siding with Levi on dropping Onix, that is don't. It's a good lead that's almost always going to get Stealth Rock up and prevent the opponent from doing the same on the first couple turns. It's weak sure, but it can hit acceptably hard due to high powered STABs and good coverage.
The other stuff is all good, although I'm personally inclined towards C- for Mankey in the same vein as Dratini, although C would be worth it too. Defiant is great as more people start using Snubbull instead of Spritzee, not that either really stop Mankey all too well.
Goomy is sadly not viable, so it's not on the list.
If you want a quick summary, it's because dragon isn't all that amazing of a typing, its only notable stat is its special defense which is offset by its low physical defense in a metagame where most things are physically based, it lacks recovery outside of rest, and its offensive power is low enough that basically all dragon resists can take huge advantage of it. While Sap Sipper is a nice ability and Gooey can punish some physical attackers, Sap Sipper leaves it mostly outclassed and Gooey can actually help Pawniard to some degree.
Goomy is sadly not viable, so it's not on the list.
If you want a quick summary, it's because dragon isn't all that amazing of a typing, its only notable stat is its special defense which is offset by its low physical defense in a metagame where most things are physically based, it lacks recovery outside of rest, and its offensive power is low enough that basically all dragon resists can take huge advantage of it. While Sap Sipper is a nice ability and Gooey can punish some physical attackers, Sap Sipper leaves it mostly outclassed and Gooey can actually help Pawniard to some degree.
Lack of movepool is its main issue, if it had at least some of what goodra gets it would be p good, + dragon is a decent typing, good resistances and lack of weaknesses.
