I've been busy for a bit, so I'm going to address almost everything which I was not able to and was not addressed by Quote/Hawk.
: A to A+; Agree
Tahu brought this up ORIGINALLY which was later brought up a SECOND TIME by
Krubby, and originally I honestly didn’t agree with either nomination until someone brought the sheer effectiveness of Flame Charge Ponyta to my attention. A fair amount of teams patch a Ponyta weakness or excuse a Ponyta weakness by simply running a Diglett. This is completely obliterated by a Ponyta at +1 Speed. SunnyBeam Ponyta also functions as a rather powerful balance breaker and can function to revenge kill a large portion of the offensive metagame. Ponyta is just super solid, and seems to have overcome its reasons for not being A+.
: A- to A; Indifferent
I’ve not sure how to address this, as I feel that Drifloon is right between A- and A ranks. Between Acrobatics, Knock Off, Will-O-Wisp, Recycle, Substitute, Hypnosis, and Hidden Power [Fighting], dealing with Drifloon is honestly annoying. However, if you can figure out what the set is, and you have a team that is not inherently weak to that particular set, often times Drifloon is only minorly annoying unless you previously over extend into the game and give Drifloon opportunities to simply cripple what it needs to for something else. Drifloon comes across as being a pokemon which is only that much better than the other current A- pokemon (excluding Carvanha) when played around poorly--though I’m sure it can be argued that Drifloon is harder to play around when compared to the other A- ranks.
: A- to A; Agree
Carvanha has always been a threatening pokemon to deal with, and this has only increased as the metagame has shifted to revolve around a combination of Balance and Offense. With three real sets, Carvanha counters can be somewhat varied. However, Croagunk, Ferroseed, Timburr, and Porygon can always revenge kill Carvanha. Knock Off spam into a Carvanha clean is as deadly as ever (shoutout to
zeriloa). Strong offensive pressure is especially deadly when coupled with Carvanha, especially if this is Zen Headbutt + Aqua Jet Carvanha. With just Stealth Rocks up, the entire meta is 2HKOed just by Waterfall or Crunch, excluding Dieno (rare), Cottonee (prone to being worn down and weak to Ice Beam, Hidden Power [Fire], or lol Poison Fang), and Croagunk (prone to being worn down though does somewhat deter Waterfall from being spammed; dies to Zen Headbutt). Simply having a Carvanha as a 6th pokemon on a team can create immense pressure on the opposition and forces a greater management of later planning and risk/reward management, especially if the Carvanha’s set isn’t known. Simply giving Carvanha a free attack can swing a game into that Carvanha user’s favor. Being forced to play safely with Carvanha answers is a very extreme detriment to providing pressure and aptly responding to other threats if any notable offensive synergy between the 5 other pokemon on Carvanha’s team exists. So much offensive pressure generated in only one pokemon which can both be used effectively by being somewhat easily tacked onto extreme offense teams or be built around even easier. However, several notable obstacles do lay in Carvanha’s path, meaning that anything higher than A is way too high in my opinion.
: B+ to A-; Disagree
If I remember correctly, Croagunk was originally moved down for being worn down rather easily and not being able to counter say, Pawniard and Mienfoo at the same time. This has not changed. It can however, counter Mienfoo (or Timburr) and check Pawniard. Or it can counter Corphish or reliably check Tirtouga/Omanyte. Honestly the largest issue with Croagunk is that it really struggles to counter two pokemon if they’re paired together, especially if they happen to carry Knock Off--thus making combinations of Pawniard, Mienfoo, Timburr, Corphish, Spritzee, Snubbull, and Skrelp rather hard for Croagunk to deal with. It often lacks the reliable recovery to truly switch into anything say 3 times, especially Pawniard’s Iron Head, Mienfoo’s High Jump Kick, Spritzee’s Moonblast, or Skrelp’s Sludge Wave. It suffers in similar ways as Cottonee does in terms of how it functions Defensively--somewhat lackluster recovery, decent resistances, great utility, but can be forced into doing too much rather easily. Of course, this can be augmented by teammates that can reliably switch into say some of those threats (a second Fighting-type, Ponyta, etc). Then of course we can look at the offensive options of Croagunk: Bulk Up, Nasty Plot, Non-mixed, etc. Generally these rely on Priority to deal with faster Pokemon which is alright especially considering it resists Priorities making its sweeps/cleans rather easily. However when used offensively, Croagunk becomes restricted to checking exclusively unless you are willing to suffer from being unable to sweep or set up later. So ultimately, I find that the original reason for why Croagunk was moved down is still extremely relevant, though in a more offensive meta, Nasty Plot does manage to cement Croagunk as a threat to Offensive teams much more easily, especially coupled with its ability to check some of the most threatening sweepers. But even with this pressure Croagunk can provided to teams, I find that rather often, even my teams which are weak to Croagunk, I can wear Croagunk down and kill it with smart plays and just strong attacks which Croagunk wants to switch into (High Jump Kick, anything from Pawniard, Poison attacks from Skrelp). B+ seems to perfectly fit Croagunk still, though I admit there is some appeal to the rise.
: B to B+; Agree
Honestly I had been indifferent for the longest time to LO Torchic and have found B to be the worthy for the Baton Pass set paired with the sometimes strong Offensive set. However, after Starmaster’s Week 1 game in SPL, I’m really starting to see LO Torchic as something other than a strictly inferior Carvanha. Being able to Baton Pass the speed Boosts gathered while also having a truly powerful Fire Blast and adequate coverage to pressure teams in a similar fashion to Carvanha is a super threatening combination as often, bulky powerhouses such as Skrelp, Berry Juice Magnetite, Corphish or even weird things like Amaura (tad weird to mention here, I do admit) can swing a game incredibly.
A- to B+; Agree
I really dislike when arguments are literally just reworded versions of earlier posts, and I find myself with very little to add to @ThatCrazyRussian’s posts earlier in the thread. However, I’ve heard some whispers of disagreements about this drop, and they seem to revolve around the idea of Drilbur, Abra, and Staryu being super irksome to switch into reliably, and Will-O-Wisp plus Synthesis can pressure most otherwise okay switch ins. The issue is though, that Scald Burns plus Stealth Rock when coupled with Ice Beam prevents Pumpkaboo from truly beating Staryu reliably. Abra wins if it packs Shadow Ball or on hazard stack, though there is a 50/50 on being forced to take a Shadow Sneak in order to kill Pumpkaboo. Drilbur can somewhat win with Poison Jab poisons or much more reliably with Shadow Claw. Pumpkaboo is also rather prone to giving Fire-types free switch ins, which is okay when used on Hazard Stack but rather problematic for balance running Pumpkaboo over say Foongus or Snivy. Pumpkaboo only really excels on hazard oriented teams, and faces stiff competition outside of this.
: C to B-; Agree
This may be a slightly overly ambitions nomination, however Dratini should move up to at least C+ for the reasons given by KM.
: C+ to B-; Agree
I have nothing to add that Levi/KM/Everyone else who has made this nom hasn’t said. It’s been a long time coming.
: B to B-; Disagree
I find that yes, Onix is less effective when compared to Surskit solely due to Sticky Web being more immediately effective than Stealth Rock is. However, Onix is actually decent outside of simply setting up hazards and is thus not setting the team up for a 5 vs 6 matchup from the get go. Additionally, while yes, Onix is incredibly weak, it can 2HKO Knocked Off Fighting types and Drilbur, making its mid game effectivity rather simple if adequately supported. In the event that Timburr or Mienfoo were not Knocked Off, which sometimes is the case, Onix should be rather okay with just clicking Stealth Rock and switching out. It is by no means a brilliant pokemon, it is more effective in a general sense than Stunky or Riolu or even Pancham. It will almost always do what you require of it, and can perform rather decently outside of Taunt and Stealth Rocks. It is not the best of the B ranks, however it is not the worst. If Onix does move down, Stunky and either Pancham or Riolu should probably drop as well.
: B- to C+; Agree
KM and Levi said it perfectly. Fuck Shellos; drop it.
: B- to C+; Agree
Hi, let’s move this one down already. To quote myself from earlier in this thread,
Licki actually has some really cool things it can do, in Counter and SD plus the standard stall-y sets. Tahu was playing around with Licki on full stall recently and ran a set with bloody thunder punch to fully cover Fletchling / Oma / Shellder for example. However, Counter is kinda awful versus Scarf Foo or even just HJK Mienfoo. SD acts are decent lure too, but this makes Licki fail to do anything besides lure or provide a single time check to sweepers. Curse can theoretically work amazingly, but the only plausible reasons to run this over Munchlax is you're playing Missy meta or running Dragon Tail (which is bad). It's all really niche though not inherently bad always, which is why I've been a proponent of it falling down to C+.
: D to C-; Agree
Mankey has always been a really cool fighting type, and always incredibly niche. However the ability to ruin some of the most common Fighting type counters with a combination of Gunk Shot and Rock Slide, mankey has a surprisingly decent chance of being a notable threat to teams. A decent 17 speed coupled with a naturally powerful STAB, the largest thing Mankey lacks is Knock Off to help completely destroy switchins for a variety of pokemon in the same way Doduo does. Mankey is not super effective however, and is largely flawed in that Pawniard has the ability to greatly pressure Mankey creating incredibly stiff competition for Mankey. However, I do think Mankey possesses just enough positive qualities to be ranked as C-.
I cannot be asked to write up something for Litwick based on the fact that while I have tried to use Litwick well many times, it simply fails to do anything great. Honestly in all but 1 team where I have used Litwick, I have switched Gastly for it. The only exception is a Trick Room team, were I used LO TR Pumpkaboo instead. It should remain unranked.
I have no strong opinions on Natu or Cubone rising thus I have chosen to not write anything on either of them.
Additionally, Budew to C-, please? It sets up spikes on every spinner and can pressure every Defogger (Vullaby still wins though).
edit: i forgot to include Tyrunt
: C+ to B-; Agree
Tyrunt has simply brilliant synergy with every Fighting-type, and can simply abuse this synergy to overcome should be checks and gain set up opportunities. SturdyJuice gives Tyrunt ample opportunity to set up and power up its movepool. Stone Edge coupled with Zen Headbutt and Superpower can catch quite a lot by surprised, resulting in Knocked Off fighting types (with just 1 SR switch in), Knocked Off Spritzee (2 SR switch ins), Porygon (50% to OHKO with 1 SR switch in, 100% with 2), Ferroseed (needs to take a Volt Switch or something before hand), and Knocked Off Foongus (with just SR) simply dropping after minor prior damage. Hazard stack really enjoys the presence of Tyrunt clearly, as do teams which are weak to Fletchling but need a win condition. Certainly, Tyrunt can often be compared to Tirtouga however its ability to bust through Porygon, Ferroseed, Lileep, and other otherwise hard walls to the smasher. Tyrunt is not super splashable as a pokemon, however it does not force teams to build around it and has great synergy with a good number of the A and S rank pokemon. Tyrunt is less immediately powerful after setting up when compared to every Shell Smasher, however Tyrunt has the tools to get around what walls these Shell Smashers. Additionally, Tyrunt is prone to being picked off by Choice Scarf Pokemon, and thus is not ranked higher. There is also a Rocks set which I am not too fond of, however it can be from what I have seen it is effective enough to get a passing mention.
